Surly Thread of Business Owners/Managers, Etc. & Current Business Climate

[G650 14,273]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Got a loan number on one business at 9:30 am. When should I expect the money?

thanks

 

 

Depends on the bank. Huge variation from what I have heard.

[Wulaw Horn 19,145]

So already signed an app- they then send something else to sign I guess?  How involved is that?  Docusign? 

[Chewbacca 7,781]

So already signed an app- they then send something else to sign I guess?  How involved is that?  Docusign? 

Some do docusign, some require originals. Varies by bank.

[Frieda’s Boss 181]

3 hours ago, Brew said:

For those interested, $52B on 475k loans has been committed on round 2 as of 1pm EST. The entire $30B set aside for small banks has been funded, so everyone is back in the same funding mechanism now.

Is this info publicly available from SBA (or other)?  I saw a similar number from “sources within the Administration” but would love to see something semi-official. 

[Incredulity 11,681]

33 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Why not?  They'll be the ones certifying the forgiveness for the SBA.  SBA doesn't have the manpower to do that.

I don’t believe for a second, given the building political grumblings, that this will be left solely to SBA and banks.

[G650 14,273]

26 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I don’t believe for a second, given the building political grumblings, that this will be left solely to SBA and banks.

Who else could it possibly be? The aren't convening a House select committee for Bob's small town feed and seed PPP loan.

[Incredulity 11,681]

9 minutes ago, G650 said:

Who else could it possibly be? The aren't convening a House select committee for Bob's small town feed and seed PPP loan.

IRS makes the most sense.

also, I am sure there is a min threshold.  Mnuchin said today that every loan over 2 Million will be “audited”

Edited April 28, 2020 by Incredulity

[G650 14,273]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

IRS makes the most sense.

also, I am sure there is a min threshold.  Mnuchin said today that every loan over 2 Million will be “audited”

The IRS makes no sense for this.

[Incredulity 11,681]

Just now, G650 said:

The IRS makes no sense for this.

Because?

[G650 14,273]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Because?

Because it has nothing to do with income tax and everything to do with lending, which the IRS has no expertise or interest in and is specifically the mission of the SBA?

[troph 24,903]

One of our businesses received EIDL grant today, one with no employees. It was just $1000 but it came through.

[RollLeft 5,045]

We got EIDL grant money this morning.

[Brew 3,049]

3 hours ago, Frieda’s Boss said:

Is this info publicly available from SBA (or other)?  I saw a similar number from “sources within the Administration” but would love to see something semi-official. 

It came from the TN Banker’s Association. The state banker’s associations receive multiple daily updates and send them out to the banks.

[Brew 3,049]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

IRS makes the most sense.

also, I am sure there is a min threshold.  Mnuchin said today that every loan over 2 Million will be “audited”

IRS doesn’t have the man power and is a year or more behind on their everyday job. It will have to be some other department within treasury or a new one set up. There is also zero chance they audit every loan over $2M. I’ll let you know when we get some sort of notice about an exam. There were 4400 in the first round over $5M, I’m not sure how many over $2M. This is all political posturing and the first one that gets looked at will likely end up tying everything up in court anyways.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

15 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

That's what I think, too.  Just wondering if anyone has seen anything different.  Don't want to have to eat 2 weeks of wages for nothing.

No guidance. I think at this point, go with the spirit of the bill--ie: assume you'll get reimbursed for the 8 week period in which your loan started/ended and be consistent. If you are wrong and an auditor "finds" something, it seems like a simple fix.

[ousuxndallas 65]

Forgiveness calculation is easy. Do it by employee, not by your total payroll.

Max forgiveness for any individual employee will be capped at $1,923 per week ($100,000 / 52 weeks). Times 8 weeks is $15,385.

If the employee makes less than that, use actual.

If total wages is less than 75% of your loan amount, then forgiveness will be curtailed. The guidance for that curtailment should be forthcoming.

Proving up your payroll will be 941s and payroll stubs.

[ousuxndallas 65]

Double

 

 

[Spaulding Smails 1,555]

37 minutes ago, ousuxndallas said:

Forgiveness calculation is easy. Do it by employee, not by your total payroll.

Max forgiveness for any individual employee will be capped at $1,923 per week ($100,000 / 52 weeks). Times 8 weeks is $15,385.

If the employee makes less than that, use actual.

If total wages is less than 75% of your loan amount, then forgiveness will be curtailed. The guidance for that curtailment should be forthcoming.

Proving up your payroll will be 941s and payroll stubs.

Do you have verification from the SBA on that?  I know the $100K cap was in place for the front-end calculation, but my CPA said it's not a limiting factor for how the PPP gets spent / forgiven.  I have four employees making over $100K, and we're assuming (again based on my CPA's feedback) that it's 100% forgivable.  I also paid Q1 bonuses using those funds under the premise that it will be forgivable.  With some of my guys, that doesn't put them over $100K, but for three that are in the $80K-$90K range, that amount when tacked on to their normal wages in the 8 week timeframe would push them well over the $1,923/wk mark.  

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

4 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

Do you have verification from the SBA on that?  I know the $100K cap was in place for the front-end calculation, but my CPA said it's not a limiting factor for how the PPP gets spent / forgiven.  I have four employees making over $100K, and we're assuming (again based on my CPA's feedback) that it's 100% forgivable.  I also paid Q1 bonuses using those funds under the premise that it will be forgivable.  With some of my guys, that doesn't put them over $100K, but for three that are in the $80K-$90K range, that amount when tacked on to their normal wages in the 8 week timeframe would push them well over the $1,923/wk mark.  

Thanks not correct. Here's the SBA's guidance:

G. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT IS EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED FROM THE DEFINITION OF PAYROLL COSTS?

Yes. The Act expressly excludes the following:

i. Any compensation of an employee whose principal place of residence is outside of the United States;

ii. The compensation of an individual employee in excess of an annual salary of $100,000, prorated as necessary;

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/04/15/2020-07672/business-loan-program-temporary-changes-paycheck-protection-program

[ousuxndallas 65]

Do you have verification from the SBA on that?  I know the $100K cap was in place for the front-end calculation, but my CPA said it's not a limiting factor for how the PPP gets spent / forgiven.  I have four employees making over $100K, and we're assuming (again based on my CPA's feedback) that it's 100% forgivable.  I also paid Q1 bonuses using those funds under the premise that it will be forgivable.  With some of my guys, that doesn't put them over $100K, but for three that are in the $80K-$90K range, that amount when tacked on to their normal wages in the 8 week timeframe would push them well over the $1,923/wk mark.  

Yes. This is an SBA released FAQ.

 

This is the guidance for forgiveness. You can spend the funds on anything you want, it just won't be forgiven.

[Incredulity 11,681]

yeah, forgiveness above 100K would be way different than anything I have seen or heard.

 

good times.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

6 minutes ago, ousuxndallas said:

You can spend the funds on anything you want, it just won't be forgiven.

Because money is fungible, that is correct, but the SBA is pretty clear on what the money SHOULD be spent on. You'd be smart to track it.

[VABuckeye 2,472]

53 minutes ago, ousuxndallas said:

You can spend the funds on anything you want, it just won't be forgiven

No you cannot.

Quote

s. What happens if PPP loan funds are misused? If you use PPP funds for unauthorized purposes, SBA will direct you to repay those amounts. If you knowingly use the funds for unauthorized purposes, you will be subject to additional liability such as charges for fraud. If one of your shareholders, members, or partners uses PPP funds for unauthorized purposes, SBA will have recourse against the shareholder, member, or partner for the unauthorized use.

https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/PPP Interim Final Rule_0.pdfSBA PPP Rules and Regulations

[ousuxndallas 65]

48 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

No you cannot.

https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/PPP Interim Final Rule_0.pdfSBA PPP Rules and Regulations

Come on. While technically correct, there is 0 way for them to track how you use the funds if you pay back the loan in full.  It's only if you apply for forgiveness where you'll have to prove where the funds were used.

[G650 14,273]

2 minutes ago, ousuxndallas said:

Come on. While technically correct, there is 0 way for them to track how you use the funds if you pay back the loan in full.  It's only if you apply for forgiveness where you'll have to prove where the funds were used.

Who did PPP without doing it for forgiveness?

[VABuckeye 2,472]

I've seen a couple on another forum.  Guy was blatantly bragging how he was going to pay off a building loan with the money.  I do believe that the vast majority are using it for the right purpose.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

Guy was blatantly bragging how he was going to pay off a building loan with the money

I mean, he's just getting a low interest loan at that point. Good for him, but stupid long term when he could get the loan forgiven for payroll/utilities. 

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

16 minutes ago, G650 said:

Who did PPP without doing it for forgiveness?

Ruth Chris'?

[G650 14,273]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

I've seen a couple on another forum.  Guy was blatantly bragging how he was going to pay off a building loan with the money.  I do believe that the vast majority are using it for the right purpose.

Beyond the idiocy of doing it, posting it on the internet is hilariously dumb.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

Beyond the idiocy of doing it, posting it on the internet is hilariously dumb.

"Stupid is as stupid does."

-Momma

[Wally Pryor 5,262]

20 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Why not?  They'll be the ones certifying the forgiveness for the SBA.  SBA doesn't have the manpower to do that.

Correct.   IRS isn't an option, for a variety of reason. 

Banks will own the review of and related certification of forgiven piece. 

[Wally Pryor 5,262]

20 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Why not?  They'll be the ones certifying the forgiveness for the SBA.  SBA doesn't have the manpower to do that.

Correct.   IRS isn't an option, for a variety of reasons. 

Banks will own the review of and related certification of forgiven piece. 

[G650 14,273]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

"Stupid is as stupid does."

-Momma

[Wally Pryor 5,262]

3 hours ago, ousuxndallas said:

Yes. This is an SBA released FAQ.

 

This is the guidance for forgiveness. You can spend the funds on anything you want, it just won't be forgiven.

3 hours ago, ousuxndallas said:

Yes. This is an SBA released FAQ.

 

This is the guidance for forgiveness. You can spend the funds on anything you want, it just won't be forgiven.

Guessing this in outdated document.  Seeing 4% on the loan rates. 

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

4 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

Guessing this in outdated document.  Seeing 4% on the loan rates. 

This loan has a maturity of 2 years and an interest rate of 1%.

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program#section-header-7

[Pyramid 1]

My company received notice last night from Chase that its SBA PPP loan was approved and will be funded in three days.  For those that are stuck in the black hole of Chase, there may be light at the end of the tunnel.   

[Incredulity 11,681]

Any Surly accountants have perspective on the actual accounting of PPP loans?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2020/04/30/irs-denies-tax-deductions-for-wages-rent-paid-with-forgivable-ppp-loans/#67d60eca1c15

This article and underlying IRS notice indicate that while the loan forgiveness will not be taxable, the wages and other expenses incurred paid with PPP funds will not be "deducted" from revenue on taxes. 

Which, all things equal, makes those funds taxable income, right?

[Lidig8r 1,874]

43 minutes ago, Pyramid said:

My company received notice last night from Chase that its SBA PPP loan was approved and will be funded in three days.  For those that are stuck in the black hole of Chase, there may be light at the end of the tunnel.   

Of course, sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel is on oncoming freight train.

[G650 14,273]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Any Surly accountants have perspective on the actual accounting of PPP loans?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2020/04/30/irs-denies-tax-deductions-for-wages-rent-paid-with-forgivable-ppp-loans/#67d60eca1c15

This article and underlying IRS notice indicate that while the loan forgiveness will not be taxable, the wages and other expenses incurred paid with PPP funds will not be "deducted" from revenue on taxes. 

Which, all things equal, makes those funds taxable income, right?

I thought that was always the intent, but I am no accountant.

[Brew 3,049]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Any Surly accountants have perspective on the actual accounting of PPP loans?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2020/04/30/irs-denies-tax-deductions-for-wages-rent-paid-with-forgivable-ppp-loans/#67d60eca1c15

This article and underlying IRS notice indicate that while the loan forgiveness will not be taxable, the wages and other expenses incurred paid with PPP funds will not be "deducted" from revenue on taxes. 

Which, all things equal, makes those funds taxable income, right?

IRS ruling yesterday says all expenses used for forgiveness are not deductible expenses, which does make the forgiveness taxable income ultimately. The problem with this scenario is it will reduce deductible payroll expenses which may also reduce your QBI benefits.

[Brew 3,049]

42 minutes ago, G650 said:

I thought that was always the intent, but I am no accountant.

It was not addressed other than to say forgiveness would not be taxable income.

[Chewbacca 7,781]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

I thought that was always the intent, but I am no accountant.

I am an accountant and always suspected that as well.  Since they're not taxing the amount forgiven, if they let you deduct it as an expense, you would get to double dip.

[Incredulity 11,681]

Seems like a bit of sleight of hand to be trumpeting(no CR/or pun intended) that forgiveness won't be taxed, and then disallow the corresponding expenses to be deducted. 

Also, I have never understood the logic of taxing UI and or other government benefits.

[Reagan1k 3,024]

Well, that one is pretty easy for the government to defend in the face of any criticism, as the general intent was to provide money to fund payroll which you wouldn't have had otherwise, therefore you wouldn't have had an expense to deduct.

I wouldn't be shocked to see legislation that reverses that to provide a tax break window for those who kept payroll expenses rolling during that time, regardless of the source of funds.  I wouldn't bet on it but I wouldn't be surprised to see some legislators push for it as part of some larger bill to come.

[RollLeft 5,045]

Big shout out to @MaclovioBrown and his team who on Monday showed the big banks how it's done.  He helped a client of mine who is very grateful for the help their big bank couldn't provide.  Thank you sir and much love, no homo.  

[4th and 5 4,915]

I got my EIDL money today!

[cabowabo 4,507]

Big shout out to [mention=5091]MaclovioBrown[/mention] and his team who on Monday showed the big banks how it's done.  He helped a client of mine who is very grateful for the help their big bank couldn't provide.  Thank you sir and much love, no homo.  

We've done loans for a few of you bitches and have not had a single tit pic sent to us. I ain't gonna lie.... I'm a little disappointed.

[RollLeft 5,045]

Y'all deserve more than a pic.  When this shit clears let's connect.

[G650 14,273]

7 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

34 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

Big shout out to [mention=5091]MaclovioBrown[/mention] and his team who on Monday showed the big banks how it's done.  He helped a client of mine who is very grateful for the help their big bank couldn't provide.  Thank you sir and much love, no homo.  

We've done loans for a few of you bitches and have not had a single tit pic sent to us. I ain't gonna lie.... I'm a little disappointed.

[RollLeft 5,045]

For those still trying Amegy completed apps on Monday and were funded by Wednesday.  Amerant bank also took several apps and funded them with no prior relationship.