Surly Thread of Business Owners/Managers, Etc. & Current Business Climate

[Chewbacca 7777]

Nah. It’s 100k/52 x 8 = 15385 weekly forgiveness even though your monthly figure for the application was 100k/12  x 2 = 16666
I need to remember to unpay myself 1281 but right now I have zero fucks to give

Right. That is what i thought. Thanks.

[troph 24789]

Nah. It’s 100k/52 x 8 = 15385 weekly forgiveness even though your monthly figure for the application was 100k/12  x 2 = 16666
I need to remember to unpay myself 1281 but right now I have zero fucks to give

That’s my point. Even if I didn’t make it well. It’s a little different.

[Apep 645]

Given the changes in the law and the forgiveness rules for independent contractors, do any Surly bankers have remaining PPP lending available?

[Apep 645]

In case anyone is wondering, today's guidance provides that Schedule C or F independent contractors with a loan of the 2.5/12 (up to $20,833) paid over the 24-week covered period will be forgiven. Sole proprietors without employees appear to be able to achieve blanket forgiveness.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

New SBA Interim Final Rule. 

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP-IFR-Revisions-to-First-Interim-Final-Rule.pdf

 

 

[4th and 5 4914]

On 6/15/2020 at 9:52 PM, 4th and 5 said:

Nah. It’s 100k/52 x 8 = 15385 weekly forgiveness even though your monthly figure for the application was 100k/12  x 2 = 16666

I need to remember to unpay myself 1281 but right now I have zero fucks to give

Well, looks like I'm electing the 24 week period and writing myself a check for $4,167 boys!

[Wally Pryor 5261]

Digging the new EZ forgiveness form. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

12 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

Digging the new EZ forgiveness form. 

LINKY LINKY?

[Wally Pryor 5261]

Yes.

https://content.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-06/PPP Forgiveness Application 3508EZ ( Revised 06.16.2020).pdf

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

6 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

Yes.

https://content.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-06/PPP Forgiveness Application 3508EZ ( Revised 06.16.2020).pdf

Awesome. So this shuts the door on all of the "you can only use 8 weeks of expenses for forgiveness" talk. Cool. Hook 'em.

[Wally Pryor 5261]

Yup.    And it's not far from my idea of giving our banking office a letter that says "We're good." and just being done with things. 

 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

Yup.    And it's not far from my idea of giving our banking office a letter that says "We're good." and just being done with things. 

 

Odd question. We will blow thru the money WAAAAAY before the 24 weeks. Can we use 12 weeks? 14 weeks? 

[Wally Pryor 5261]

I have the same question.   I'm guessing so.   Just waiting for more "interpretation", again, of necessary details that aren't provided.   

I don't see instructions along with this form (as we did with the initial form).   Wouldn't surprise me if the SBA forgot to do them.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

40 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

Wouldn't surprise me if the SBA forgot to do them.

Sorry. I work for the government. I'm not expected to do anything

[Chewbacca 7777]

3 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

Yes.

https://content.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-06/PPP Forgiveness Application 3508EZ ( Revised 06.16.2020).pdf

So it looks like there is a cap of $20,833 on owner comp for the 24 week period.  Is there no  cap on non-owner employee comp for the same period (I assume it's 100k times 24/52?)?  Are benefits included in the 20,833 for owners, or would they be in addition to that?  That document is shockingly sparse on details, but that's not necessarily bad.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Chewbacca

[Wally Pryor 5261]

AUSTIN, Texas — An Austin man was arrested on Thursday for allegedly defrauding the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) of more than $2 million.

Federal authorities said Michael George McQuarn, 51, of Austin, submitted fraudulent applications in April 2020 for two fictitious companies he created – Vantastic Voyages, LLC and Happy Days Movers, LLC – to secure SBA-backed PPP loans.

According to the U.S. Attorney’s Office, McQuarn claimed the funds were for legitimate business purposes, when in fact the money was used for his own personal use, including purchasing a 26-foot Pavati Wake Boat and a Rolls Royce. It is alleged McQuarn fraudulently received an excess of $2 million in PPP funds.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

28 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

for his own personal use, including purchasing a 26-foot Pavati Wake Boat and a Rolls Royce.

Go big or go home!

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2732]

How could that happen if you have to show FS like tax returns, P&L, etc?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 hour ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

How could that happen if you have to show FS like tax returns, P&L, etc?

 

 

[Brew 3049]

3 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

AUSTIN, Texas — An Austin man was arrested on Thursday for allegedly defrauding the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) of more than $2 million.

Federal authorities said Michael George McQuarn, 51, of Austin, submitted fraudulent applications in April 2020 for two fictitious companies he created – Vantastic Voyages, LLC and Happy Days Movers, LLC – to secure SBA-backed PPP loans.

According to the U.S. Attorney’s Office, McQuarn claimed the funds were for legitimate business purposes, when in fact the money was used for his own personal use, including purchasing a 26-foot Pavati Wake Boat and a Rolls Royce. It is alleged McQuarn fraudulently received an excess of $2 million in PPP funds.

If anyone sees that Pavati show up on a government auction site, let me know. For the right price (read dirt cheap), I may have some interest.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

53 minutes ago, Brew said:

If anyone sees that Pavati show up on a government auction site, let me know. For the right price (read dirt cheap), I may have some interest.

Government Repo guy is using it for the weekend...

[VABuckeye 2472]

Checking in to see how everyones businesses are doing.  May was a terrible month for invoicing and June is even worse.

On the bright side I'm hearing about projects opening back up and we're getting new business to quote now.  I hope this "second wave" doesn't bring things to a grinding halt.  It's just beginning to look like there might be a light at the end of the tunnel for us.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

9 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

Checking in to see how everyones businesses are doing. 

Not great, Bob.

[G650 14254]

6 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

May was a terrible month for invoicing and June is even worse.

Damn, I'm bummed to hear.

 

We have been wide open. Only real issue we are having right now is that our receivables have really been dragging. I do see a little light in the tunnel on that end at least.

[Guest Lobo]

On 6/16/2020 at 5:34 PM, Apep said:

Given the changes in the law and the forgiveness rules for independent contractors, do any Surly bankers have remaining PPP lending available?

Our bank still has some left to lend, probably 20-30% capacity still.   We had to proceed a bit differently than most CFI's because we just came out from an OCC consent order, so the very companies intended to be lent to under this PPP platform are the types we were strictly monitored about before.  Although based in Illinois, I am working with them still to allow for some PPP activity here in Austin/Houston.  It's almost entirely uncharted territory though.  It's a federally chartered CFI, which is rare.  It's very small, even by CFI standards, but we have borrowers coming to us from a dozen states for PPP.    

[4th and 5 4914]

On 6/19/2020 at 10:52 AM, Wally Pryor said:

AUSTIN, Texas — An Austin man was arrested on Thursday for allegedly defrauding the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) of more than $2 million.

Federal authorities said Michael George McQuarn, 51, of Austin, submitted fraudulent applications in April 2020 for two fictitious companies he created – Vantastic Voyages, LLC and Happy Days Movers, LLC – to secure SBA-backed PPP loans.

According to the U.S. Attorney’s Office, McQuarn claimed the funds were for legitimate business purposes, when in fact the money was used for his own personal use, including purchasing a 26-foot Pavati Wake Boat and a Rolls Royce. It is alleged McQuarn fraudulently received an excess of $2 million in PPP funds.

someone want to get the edit here??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_McQuarn

Pretty sure I saw him in Devil's Cove 2 weeks ago

 

2 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Checking in to see how everyones businesses are doing.  May was a terrible month for invoicing and June is even worse.

On the bright side I'm hearing about projects opening back up and we're getting new business to quote now.  I hope this "second wave" doesn't bring things to a grinding halt.  It's just beginning to look like there might be a light at the end of the tunnel for us.  

 

That's exactly what's going to happen.

Thanks, Greg.

 

[Wally Pryor 5261]

1 hour ago, 4th and 5 said:

someone want to get the edit here??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_McQuarn

Pretty sure I saw him in Devil's Cove 2 weeks ago

 

Meh, pretty sure we'll find out that the known racist entity SBA going was doing its thing.  But we won't hear about it until they've taken the noose from Bubba's garage and hung it in the rearview of the Rolls.

Weird that we've not seen the guy's pic in any of the stories.  Actually, not weird at all.

And a good find on this.  Simpletons like I should try Wiki more often. 

 

[Eastwood 4394]

3 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Checking in to see how everyones businesses are doing.  May was a terrible month for invoicing and June is even worse.

On the bright side I'm hearing about projects opening back up and we're getting new business to quote now.  I hope this "second wave" doesn't bring things to a grinding halt.  It's just beginning to look like there might be a light at the end of the tunnel for us.  

 

3 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Not great, Bob.

Pretty much this. During the last big downturn in my field (O&G) at the end of 2015, things quickly picked up about 3 months in and people were constantly checking in with me to make sure I was available to hit the ground running the moment a project restarted or a new one came in. This time around it's been dead silent since the end of March. I've even been checking up on my old project and past project areas to see if things have been moving on without me and things really did come to a stand-still out there. Selfishly, I'm thankful that is the case and it wasn't me getting left out in the cold for reasons unknown. 

The PPP loan is greatly appreciated, though. It came in right when my last invoices were paid and the forgiveness amount will have carried me all the way to the end of this month. Like everyone else, the initial guidance had me over-borrowing beyond the forgiveness amount. The plan was to throw the unforgiven amount into the IRA, which would out-earn the 1% interest (at least in theory), but I might not be able to do that now. I was hoping to pick up the occasional small gig to supplement the income, but that appears very unlikely now. Either way, I have plenty of runway for a career change that was already in the works to come to completion and hopefully all of this will be a distant memory come this time next year. I can't imagine the stress of those of you with actual employees, though. God speed to you guys.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

13 hours ago, Eastwood said:

The PPP loan is greatly appreciated, though

It's keeping us from doing a massive layoff and keeping the business going. I know the implementation has sucked in many ways, but I know it's been a net positive for so many businesses (and therefore, employees). We'd be screwed without it.

[troph 24789]

It's keeping us from doing a massive layoff and keeping the business going. I know the implementation has sucked in many ways, but I know it's been a net positive for so many businesses (and therefore, employees). We'd be screwed without it.

That’s the main thing for me - never seen a small business “bailout” in my life time. Complaints seem tone deaf given that fact.

[bizzle 1153]

has anyone seen guidance specifically saying no to multiple eidl loans (via same ein)? one of our companies received the $150k and operators are claiming they can go back for more, but can't seem to get clarity either way.

 

[Wally Pryor 5261]

On 6/25/2020 at 7:09 AM, Cheeseweasel said:

It's keeping us from doing a massive layoff and keeping the business going. I know the implementation has sucked in many ways, but I know it's been a net positive for so many businesses (and therefore, employees). We'd be screwed without it.

Yup.

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

How are those of you who are unable to have employees work remotely dealing with secondary and tertiary exposure?  And common ailments?

I've been hammered over the last two weeks with employees out for mild ailments.  Stuff like headaches and upset stomachs.  Pre-Rona they would've continued working or maybe missed a day.  Now that we're doing daily health checks, I'm keeping them home at the first sign of any symptom and requiring testing before they can return.  I've had six employees (10% of my workforce) in the past week miss time based on potential symptoms.  Four have come back negative and two are pending (and are sitting home until those results come back).  Most have been out for 3-5 days awaiting test results, but symptoms have subsided long before test results come back.

We had a subcontractor that worked with us June 22 come back positive.  Just found out this week.  He reported to his employer June 23 that he felt crappy.  Mild symptoms and he got tested June 26.  So, two weeks ago.  I had four guys on the job with him June 22 at the time (outdoors and we were requiring masks at that time), but no direct contact.  I notified them and none of them have shown symptoms.  I haven't required them to get tested.  Should I?

Today, my office manager notified me that her grandson was feeling bad yesterday, so he went to the doctor, got tested and results are already back as positive.  She hasn't been around him, but she did see her daughter (the kid's mom) Monday.  She's not sick, but let me know about the potential secondary exposure.  Good news is, she's working from home 80% of the time and only coming in to the office to check the mail, cut checks, etc.  I shut the office down completely today, and we're having it sanitized tomorrow.

Given the numbers in Central Texas and the increase in testing, it seems as if we all have possibly had exposure if we look hard enough and extend the contact tracing far enough.  What's the reasonable line for keeping people home when mildly sick and how do you deal with secondary / tertiary exposure?

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

One more point that I felt deserved a separate post:

Have any of you tried to dollarize the cost associated with the prevention and sanitation aspect of Rona?  I'm not even talking about opportunity cost, and I'm certainly not putting my cost burden in the same stratosphere as those of you with businesses that have had to close your doors.  But, we've seen what we feel is a 5% decrease in productivity based on all the additional precautions, sanitization of tools, health checks, etc.  Overhead costs are up.  Materials expenses are up for sanitation supplies, hand wash stations, PPE, etc. 

We're beefing up our "Sanitation Services" line item in our new bids right now to cover those expenses, and we're trying to add to our budgets for that productivity burden, but I'm getting hammered on existing jobs with these unforeseen costs.  Curious how everyone else is measuring and accounting for these expenses.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

50 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

How are those of you who are unable to have employees work remotely dealing with secondary and tertiary exposure?  And common ailments?

We've been pretty "proactive" regarding corona symptoms. If you think you have it or have come in contact with someone who has it, get tested, show us the test results and return to work (or quarantine if you test positive). We are pretty slow right now so having a few people miss a day or two is better than  spreading. We pay for their time off to get tested. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

49 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

Curious how everyone else is measuring and accounting for these expenses.  

Right now? Absorbing them. Not much else you can do.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

My current business climate is busy with more calls each week than the previous week in some cases. I picked up 4 new commissions in as many days between last week and this week

[Wally Pryor 5261]

11 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

We've been pretty "proactive" regarding corona symptoms. If you think you have it or have come in contact with someone who has it, get tested, show us the test results and return to work (or quarantine if you test positive). We are pretty slow right now so having a few people miss a day or two is better than  spreading. We pay for their time off to get tested. 

I wonder, for us, what the end game is going to be with getting (making) people come back.    Small company, about 50 employees.  We "opened" back up about 6 weeks ago thinking that we'd get 25% or more.   Instead, 4 came back and are back.  Productivity is still there, which begs whether we end up making people come back at all I guess.

Such weird times.  So many tentacles. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Wally Pryor said:

We "opened" back up about 6 weeks ago thinking that we'd get 25% or more.   Instead, 4 came back and are back.

Can you not create a rotating schedule?

[Wally Pryor 5261]

It's the employee's option at this point and if they are getting their work done, and have the slightest bit of concern, they can continue to work at home.

We just thought more would want to come back to the office. 

I can't stand working at home.   Many more can, however. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

4 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

We just thought more would want to come back to the office. 

You chose...poorly

 

But seriously. If everyone can WFH without loss of productivity, go for it. We are in manufacturing, so we can't.

[Reagan1k 3024]

The "stay home if you feel bad" hasn't hurt us as we can work remotely making calls, doing bid and spec work, email, zoom - but it has hammered some manufacturers I work with.

At the start, they told their employees they should stay home if they feel bad and that it won't impact their pay or PTO (at the time it seemed wise to keep sick people from choosing to work (infect others) to keep their income). 

No good deed goes unpunished and immediately a large chunk of their line workers started feeling bad right away and stayed home.  Many went and got hired on other jobs like walmart stocking, lawn care, and construction to double dip on pay.  The employer knows it is a problem and is being abused, but can't put the genie back in the bottle and it has slowed their production to a crawl.  They have these rolling waves of people staying home for a week or two, finally getting tested, coming back - rinse and repeat.

Lead times have tripled and quality has suffered.  

I don't have any solutions and every business is different.  All we are trying to do is the next right thing based on the information we have at the time and remembering that we don't want to put profits ahead of people.  

[Incredulity 11669]

2 hours ago, Spaulding Smails said:

How are those of you who are unable to have employees work remotely dealing with secondary and tertiary exposure?  And common ailments?

I've been hammered over the last two weeks with employees out for mild ailments.  Stuff like headaches and upset stomachs.  Pre-Rona they would've continued working or maybe missed a day.  Now that we're doing daily health checks, I'm keeping them home at the first sign of any symptom and requiring testing before they can return.  I've had six employees (10% of my workforce) in the past week miss time based on potential symptoms.  Four have come back negative and two are pending (and are sitting home until those results come back).  Most have been out for 3-5 days awaiting test results, but symptoms have subsided long before test results come back.

We had a subcontractor that worked with us June 22 come back positive.  Just found out this week.  He reported to his employer June 23 that he felt crappy.  Mild symptoms and he got tested June 26.  So, two weeks ago.  I had four guys on the job with him June 22 at the time (outdoors and we were requiring masks at that time), but no direct contact.  I notified them and none of them have shown symptoms.  I haven't required them to get tested.  Should I?

Today, my office manager notified me that her grandson was feeling bad yesterday, so he went to the doctor, got tested and results are already back as positive.  She hasn't been around him, but she did see her daughter (the kid's mom) Monday.  She's not sick, but let me know about the potential secondary exposure.  Good news is, she's working from home 80% of the time and only coming in to the office to check the mail, cut checks, etc.  I shut the office down completely today, and we're having it sanitized tomorrow.

Given the numbers in Central Texas and the increase in testing, it seems as if we all have possibly had exposure if we look hard enough and extend the contact tracing far enough.  What's the reasonable line for keeping people home when mildly sick and how do you deal with secondary / tertiary exposure?

It's been a complete clusterfuck.

I have seen simple direct exposure situations that have caused loss of workforce and issues, but the majority have been 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.  The flow of information is completely fucked.  I have had health department notifications that are more than 14 days after positive test.  Rumor mill about cases and positives has caused significant wasted time and effort.  Compounded by outright dishonesty/"forgetfulness" by employees, subcontractor employees and other organizations employees.  

 

Its been fucking exhausting and I see significant apathy in follow-up at this point.

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

It's been a complete clusterfuck.

I have seen simple direct exposure situations that have caused loss of workforce and issues, but the majority have been 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.  The flow of information is completely fucked.  I have had health department notifications that are more than 14 days after positive test.  Rumor mill about cases and positives has caused significant wasted time and effort.  Compounded by outright dishonesty/"forgetfulness" by employees, subcontractor employees and other organizations employees.  

 

Its been fucking exhausting and I see significant apathy in follow-up at this point.

All of this is so true.  We sent out the FFCRA documents that allow for up to 80 hours of reimbursable PTO to be leveraged with associated (and documented) testing of symptoms or actual quarantine.  And, although our employees are pretty well paid, and we don't have a huge turnover or a big pool of unskilled labor, I do think some of them are taking advantage of that.

And, just found out my office manager is positive.  So, now I have to do forensics and contact tracing and have the whole office cleaned and sterilized.  Fun times!

[Incredulity 11669]

Anyone have advice/perspective/sorrow/joy to share on PPP forgiveness?

[Wally Pryor 5261]

Our bank is starting to take applications on Aug 10 and with the revised EZ form it looks to be, well, easy.

We'll see. 

[BradInATX 9208]

Submitted mine on July 15th. Guy on the phone said mine was straightforward and would be forgiven (single person, straight payroll, etc.). Said they would submit a recommendation to forgive to the SBA and the SBA would have 90 days to decide and finalize.

YMMV

Edited July 30, 2020 by BradInATX

[VABuckeye 2472]

A couple of projects are starting to open up and we've won a couple of projects so hopefully our upside down receivables will start to level out.  Right now we have 80% of last years total revenue out in quotes.  Winning the majority of those would right our ship in a hurry.  Don't get me wrong.  We're getting by and meeting expenses and payroll but at the same time I am digging into money I'd like to be using for business growth instead of using it for monthly expenses.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

I am digging into money I'd like to be using for business growth instead of using it for monthly expenses.

Very much this.

[Wally Pryor 5261]

X3, at least partially.