Surly Thread of Business Owners/Managers, Etc. & Current Business Climate

[VABuckeye 2472]

Apparently there are discussions about a possible second round of PPP loans.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, VABuckeye said:

Apparently there are discussions about a possible second round of PPP loans.

I'm not so sure this is a good idea unless it is VERY focused and merit based. 

[InkaUtexas 25919]

After seeing the assholes who got them on the first round (large business, NGO's, etc) I will apply this time. Work has been steady with a slight decrease which is why we did not apply the first time. And now with the end of the Federal Year it is always our busy time. 

Go get it Surly, lets replenish the wreath fund.

[VABuckeye 2472]

8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm not so sure this is a good idea unless it is VERY focused and merit based. 

Agreed.  The email I received from our Surly banker friend indicated that this round would be for "qualified" businesses.

Quote

 

Last night, Senate Small Business Committee Chair Marco Rubio (R-FL) released an updated summary of his draft COVID IV legislation. While this version is a scaled-back version of his initial proposal with Sen. Susan Collins, it does include:

 • Continued access to the PPP with a new maximum loan amount of $2 million

• Allowance for a second loan from PPP for eligible businesses

• Borrower selection of a forgiveness period--either the 8-week period after loan origination, or the covered period ending Dec. 31, 2020.

• Lender hold harmless providing that “no enforcement action could be taken against a lender who in good faith relied on a certification or documentation submitted by a borrower of a covered loan.”

• “Simplified forgiveness” for loans under $150,000 as well as loans between $150,000 and $2,000,000.

 

 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

Allowance for a second loan from PPP for eligible businesses

The devil is in the detail on how they define "eligibility". 

[Wally Pryor 5261]

I can't see this happening.    Yes, defining "eligibility" (and certifying) would seemingly be a bitch. 

[VABuckeye 2472]

1 hour ago, Wally Pryor said:

I can't see this happening.    Yes, defining "eligibility" (and certifying) would seemingly be a bitch. 

We have to do certified payroll on some government projects.  The system is in place to track payroll spending.  They just have to use it.

[Incredulity 11669]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

We have to do certified payroll on some government projects.  The system is in place to track payroll spending.  They just have to use it.

I think the concern is more defining "need" rather than just basing it on paying employees.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I think the concern is more defining "need" rather than just basing it on paying employees.

Correct. There are plenty of companies that will take the loan despite the fact they are doing fine

[hornian 5218]

Anyone submitted a PPP forgiveness application yet? And if so, has it been approved?

[Chewbacca 7777]

Anyone submitted a PPP forgiveness application yet? And if so, has it been approved?

Yes. We have been told by the bank that we will get 100 percent forgiveness. Now we wait in SBA hell.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

9 hours ago, hornian said:

Anyone submitted a PPP forgiveness application yet? And if so, has it been approved?

Has the SBA opened it up yet? Our bank said there's no need to submit an application yet because the SBA isn't taking them.

[hornian 5218]

2 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Has the SBA opened it up yet? Our bank said there's no need to submit an application yet because the SBA isn't taking them.

I literally just got an email from my bank this morning about it. So I guess I will work on it this week. I'd like to get it forgiven before 12/31/2020 if at all possible. 

[BradInATX 9208]

22 hours ago, hornian said:

Anyone submitted a PPP forgiveness application yet? And if so, has it been approved?

Yup. Months ago. My bank said similar to what Cheese's did, that they haven't even started processing them yet. Told my banker it was a pain in the ass keeping two sets of books, one with and one without forgiveness, and he told me to throw the one without forgiveness in the trash. Basically said they're hearing that the government has absolutely no way to handle the volume of forgiveness apps and will approve everything with a few random audits, and maybe look at anything above a certain very large dollar amount. But YMMV, IANAL, etc.

Edited October 27, 2020 by BradInATX

[hornian 5218]

39 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yup. Months ago. My bank said similar to what Cheese's did, that they haven't even started processing them yet. Told my banker it was a pain in the ass keeping two sets of books, one with and one without forgiveness, and he told me to throw the one without forgiveness in the trash. Basically said they're hearing that the government has absolutely no way to handle the volume of forgiveness apps and will approve everything with a few random audits, and maybe look at anything above a certain very large dollar amount. But YMMV, IANAL, etc.

Listen bub, leave the Anal talk in IPIHB. 

[Chewbacca 7777]

Yup. Months ago. My bank said similar to what Cheese's did, that they haven't even started processing them yet. Told my banker it was a pain in the ass keeping two sets of books, one with and one without forgiveness, and he told me to throw the one without forgiveness in the trash. Basically said they're hearing that the government has absolutely no way to handle the volume of forgiveness apps and will approve everything with a few random audits, and maybe look at anything above a certain very large dollar amount. But YMMV, IANAL, etc.

2 sets of books? That's a big no- no. There is one set of books at all times.

[BradInATX 9208]

5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Yup. Months ago. My bank said similar to what Cheese's did, that they haven't even started processing them yet. Told my banker it was a pain in the ass keeping two sets of books, one with and one without forgiveness, and he told me to throw the one without forgiveness in the trash. Basically said they're hearing that the government has absolutely no way to handle the volume of forgiveness apps and will approve everything with a few random audits, and maybe look at anything above a certain very large dollar amount. But YMMV, IANAL, etc.

2 sets of books? That's a big no- no. There is one set of books at all times.

Probably fair. But I mean it's a single-tab excel document where my net running cash flow now has a second row beneath it with the PPP loan not forgiven, so I feel like I can probably not botch it up. I'm just a single member S-Corp with monthly paychecks, not Surly 1% CxO status.

[Chewbacca 7777]

Probably fair. But I mean it's a single-tab excel document where my net running cash flow now has a second row beneath it with the PPP loan not forgiven, so I feel like I can probably not botch it up. I'm just a single member S-Corp with monthly paychecks, not Surly 1% CxO status.

But why do that? Are you showing banks financials without the ppp loan in there?

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

 

 

But why do that? Are you showing banks financials without the ppp loan in there?

 

I've never had to show a bank my financials. I just keep track of cash flow and cash on hand, so I'm essentially projecting cash with and without the loan being forgiven, if that makes sense.

[Both Tacos 1806]

I've never had to show a bank my financials. I just keep track of cash flow and cash on hand, so I'm essentially projecting cash with and without the loan being forgiven, if that makes sense.

You are correct in that once you put in your forgiveness app, you can eliminate that from your financials because whether your app is correct or not, the SBA won't have the man power to check them.

[Both Tacos 1806]

After seeing the assholes who got them on the first round (large business, NGO's, etc) I will apply this time. Work has been steady with a slight decrease which is why we did not apply the first time. And now with the end of the Federal Year it is always our busy time. 
Go get it Surly, lets replenish the wreath fund.

If it is going to help keep people employed and your business going forward, then certainly do it. It was a good $160,000 "loan" that helped my business to mot get strapped early on during COVID.

[Hefeweizen 5320]

8 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

9 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Yup. Months ago. My bank said similar to what Cheese's did, that they haven't even started processing them yet. Told my banker it was a pain in the ass keeping two sets of books, one with and one without forgiveness, and he told me to throw the one without forgiveness in the trash. Basically said they're hearing that the government has absolutely no way to handle the volume of forgiveness apps and will approve everything with a few random audits, and maybe look at anything above a certain very large dollar amount. But YMMV, IANAL, etc.

2 sets of books? That's a big no- no. There is one set of books at all times.

I take it you've never done business overseas?  In Brazil there was "Caixa 1" which was official money (reported for tax) and Caixa 2, which was everything else.  The US respect for rule of law in taxes has always impressed me.  Evasion is a sport in most countries.

[Reagan1k 3024]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:28 PM, hornian said:

Anyone submitted a PPP forgiveness application yet? And if so, has it been approved?

My bank says it will be forgiven, but doesn't even want the paperwork yet.  They don't trust the SBA not to change the requirements / requests and they don't want to put themselves or us through the hassle.  They're saying to just sit back and wait.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, Reagan1k said:

My bank says it will be forgiven, but doesn't even want the paperwork yet.  They don't trust the SBA not to change the requirements / requests and they don't want to put themselves or us through the hassle.  They're saying to just sit back and wait.

Same. Our fiscal year ended 9/30, so we have a year to mess with it. 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2732]

My bank says it will be forgiven, but doesn't even want the paperwork yet.  They don't trust the SBA not to change the requirements / requests and they don't want to put themselves or us through the hassle.  They're saying to just sit back and wait.

I have a few clients that have submitted and have been told the same. All under $500k in funds received.

The current guidance on M&A transactions has deals getting done thankfully.

[G650 14254]

I think for the bigger loans, the guidance is to wait generally. The small auto forgiven ones can basically shoot any time.

[Both Tacos 1806]

We submitted ours this week through the bank's online forgiveness application.

[Brew 3049]

SBA just released a required questionnaire (Form 3509) for loans over $2M in the last couple of days. I don’t know that it is approved but it is out there. It’s an f-ing mess, let the lawsuits begin.

They were approving loans a couple of months ago, but the uncertainty inside of Congress shut it back down again. I haven’t seen any forgiven recently.

[Incredulity 11669]

43 minutes ago, Brew said:

SBA just released a required questionnaire (Form 3509) for loans over $2M in the last couple of days. I don’t know that it is approved but it is out there. It’s an f-ing mess, let the lawsuits begin.

They were approving loans a couple of months ago, but the uncertainty inside of Congress shut it back down again. I haven’t seen any forgiven recently.

It was always my assumption something like that form would happen to assess need.  I would guess they will get to clawbacks too, on previously forgiven large loans that didn’t have “need”.

[Brew 3049]

17 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

It was always my assumption something like that form would happen to assess need.  I would guess they will get to clawbacks too, on previously forgiven large loans that didn’t have “need”.

It’s in the comment phase, so we will see what happens. It will end up in court as treating the over $2M differently than the under is going to easily get challenged when the app was the same for both.

[orange dream 1250]

We submitted through our bank's portal last week.  They (the bank) has 60 days to review and pass a recommendation to the SBA who will have another 90 days to review before a final decision. 

[landman 559]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:28 PM, hornian said:

Anyone submitted a PPP forgiveness application yet? And if so, has it been approved?

We submitted the application in September.  Bank approved it at the end of September, and the SBA approved it in mid-October.  Bank received the payoff two weeks ago.

[Wally Pryor 5261]

Interesting read on employers / vaccine:

https://www.dmagazine.com/healthcare-business/2020/11/can-employers-force-their-employees-to-receive-the-covid-19-vaccine/

[MaclovioBrown 100]

Playing catch-up on discussions. Most large banks are telling customers to hold tight on submissions so the 60 day clock doesn’t start on them before they are ramped up. We have uploaded probably 20 of the 86 loans we booked and something like 15 have already paid off. If your loan is at or below $50k use the Form 3508S. No need to send bank supporting docs, but you need to retain for 6 years (last paragraph on 3508S instructions). S form payoffs are coming back in a matter of days. The long and ez form applications are taking a few weeks. 
Rumors on second round qualifications appear to be for businesses that show 50% drop in revenues over prior year. No more detail than that so far. 
Hook’em

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

23 minutes ago, MaclovioBrown said:

Rumors on second round qualifications appear to be for businesses that show 50% drop in revenues over prior year.

Thank God we are not in that boat, but that's a good idea.

[blacklab 11928]

So apparently employees on contract counted towards payroll for the loan you could get, but don't count towards payroll for forgiveness. 

I'm going to end up having to pay this fucking thing back.

Certainly wouldn't have taken the loan if I had known that.

[Chewbacca 7777]

So apparently employees on contract counted towards payroll for the loan you could get, but don't count towards payroll for forgiveness. 
I'm going to end up having to pay this fucking thing back.
Certainly wouldn't have taken the loan if I had known that.

Really? What the fuck.

[blacklab 11928]

Yeah, our initial forgiveness was rejected.

The other things that pisses me off is the loan documents implied that as long as 75% of the loan went to payroll/mortgage/etc the whole loan would be forgiven.

That is not the case. Only money spent on payroll/mortgage/etc will be forgiven.

 

[Chewbacca 7777]

Yeah, our initial forgiveness was rejected.
The other things that pisses me off is the loan documents implied that as long as 75% of the loan went to payroll/mortgage/etc the whole loan would be forgiven.
That is not the case. Only money spent on payroll/mortgage/etc will be forgiven.
 

Will your bank work with you to sort that out? I would lean on them.

[Both Tacos 1806]

Yeah, our initial forgiveness was rejected.
The other things that pisses me off is the loan documents implied that as long as 75% of the loan went to payroll/mortgage/etc the whole loan would be forgiven.
That is not the case. Only money spent on payroll/mortgage/etc will be forgiven.
 

Best double check that as we had the entire loan forgiven using the 75%. Also, you can stretch that forgiveness period out to more than the original 8 weeks to help "use up" more of the loan.

[Frieda’s Boss 181]

On 11/24/2020 at 10:13 AM, blacklab said:

Yeah, our initial forgiveness was rejected.

The other things that pisses me off is the loan documents implied that as long as 75% of the loan went to payroll/mortgage/etc the whole loan would be forgiven.

That is not the case. Only money spent on payroll/mortgage/etc will be forgiven.

 

Already mentioned but make sure you use 24 week covered period. That should definitely help given loan amount was based on a 12 week period. 

[MaclovioBrown 100]

Yeah, our initial forgiveness was rejected.
The other things that pisses me off is the loan documents implied that as long as 75% of the loan went to payroll/mortgage/etc the whole loan would be forgiven.
That is not the case. Only money spent on payroll/mortgage/etc will be forgiven.
 

Initially 75% to payroll and 25% to other qualified expenses ie. rent, utilities, mortgage. Later revised to 60% payroll, 40% other qualified.


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[VABuckeye 2472]

End of year bump.  If you would have told me in July that we would exceed last yeras revenue by 17.66% I would have told you that you were crazy.  Well, here I sit on December 11th and that is where our revenue for 2020 sits.

It was a lot of hard work and we adapted and most of all my guys did fantastic work and hit every project deadline we had.  I hope all of you have had a similar recovery and here's to a fantastic 2021 for all.

Thanks to our friend at FNB who helped a lot of us in our time of need and what seemed like our darkest days.  Robert, you are a fantastic human being.

[Chewbacca 7777]

End of year bump.  If you would have told me in July that we would exceed last yeras revenue by 17.66% I would have told you that you were crazy.  Well, here I sit on December 11th and that is where our revenue for 2020 sits.
It was a lot of hard work and we adapted and most of all my guys did fantastic work and hit every project deadline we had.  I hope all of you have had a similar recovery and here's to a fantastic 2021 for all.
Thanks to our friend at FNB who helped a lot of us in our time of need and what seemed like our darkest days.  Robert, you are a fantastic human being.

Fuck yes. We had a terrible 2020 up until November. We are now crushing our 2021 goals. Already have 2x the work booked that we hoped for 21, and have verbals on another 2x.

[bernorange 8361]

Our 2020 business flatlined.  Sales pipelines collapsed.  Oil refining customers seem to have clenched sphincters right now.  50% drop in business to qualify for round 2?  Unfortunately, that's a yes.

[Zwylde 812]

We are one of the lucky ones as well.  We are up 132% over last year.  Only 39% pre-covid and 154% thereafter.  

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

Same here.  Super fortunate.  2020 will end at about 30% above 2019.  That's despite March-April-May being down 25% YOY.  2021 budget calls for another 20% growth.  

[MaclovioBrown 100]

End of year bump.  If you would have told me in July that we would exceed last yeras revenue by 17.66% I would have told you that you were crazy.  Well, here I sit on December 11th and that is where our revenue for 2020 sits.
It was a lot of hard work and we adapted and most of all my guys did fantastic work and hit every project deadline we had.  I hope all of you have had a similar recovery and here's to a fantastic 2021 for all.
Thanks to our friend at FNB who helped a lot of us in our time of need and what seemed like our darkest days.  Robert, you are a fantastic human being.

End of year bump.  If you would have told me in July that we would exceed last yeras revenue by 17.66% I would have told you that you were crazy.  Well, here I sit on December 11th and that is where our revenue for 2020 sits.
It was a lot of hard work and we adapted and most of all my guys did fantastic work and hit every project deadline we had.  I hope all of you have had a similar recovery and here's to a fantastic 2021 for all.
Thanks to our friend at FNB who helped a lot of us in our time of need and what seemed like our darkest days.  Robert, you are a fantastic human being.

Seriously, it’s a privilege to help.


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[Cheeseweasel 26438]

We are flat this year, but slightly ahead in margin. When our PPP gets forgiven, it will be a great year.

Very happy and feel extremely lucky. This has been such a weird business year, reading about industries getting "hammered" but most of the business owners I know are doing as good or better than last year. Very specific industries (food/beverage/travel) have been obviously hurt but this doesn't seem nearly as bad as the last recession. 

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

Has anyone heard any verifiable information from the IRS regarding taxes on PPP funds?

I had a call with my CPA last week about the PPP and tax implications.  Seems like that is still up in the air.  No news.  He said that he didn't think there would be clarification until after the inauguration as there would probably be some better language in a second round of PPP funds (even if we don't qualify for those) that would set the precedent from a tax perspective.  Worst case scenario, we rat-holed 30% of our PPP into a separate account (out of sight... out of mind) in the event that taxes are due on those funds.  If not, we pay off several financed vehicles and invest at a much faster rate on some of our pending 2021 capital purchases.  FYI, we're 99.99% confident that our PPP is going to be 100% forgivable.  

'