Grading Trump's Pandemic Leadership

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

Elizabeth Warren, the President we need.  Dotard, the President we deserve.

Print it up.

[bolverk 29399]

Hey guys! Zork, Hammer, Sack, and Immortal got in touch and they wanted me to let y'all know their grade for his performance:

[Brandywine 1313]

He royally screwed up on this and he knows it. He thought he could talk his way out of it by making jokes and accusing the Dems and Obama of everything that has gone wrong. It’s worked in the past, why not now? Unfortunately he still has a whole slew of believers and followers who are high in government that he can hide behind. I wish I could say he finally hit his Waterloo but he has always landed on his feet. Doesn’t matter who dies. He’s a rat, never turn your back on him and never, ever trust him.

[Carl Spackler 3461]

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I'd sincerely like to see those models and the underlying assumptions to see how applicable the assumptions are to a novel coronavirus situation. 

Here is one from the institute of disease modeling in 2016 that predicted 1MM deaths by month 2 and 10MM by month 3 from a novel airborne flu virus.  I didn't do a lot of searching though. 

http://www.idmod.org/news/node/296

 

All of the ones I’ve read basically mention testing in passing, just simply assuming it would have been done. Which of course it should have. The issue is not even really addressed. 

They are all on the flu though. Not exactly like the Coronavirus. I’ll link them for you tomorrow.

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

You know how I know there is no deep state and Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone?

Trump is still a living President.

I have said this and thought this 1000’s of times.  Seriously.  I didn’t think THAT much less of this country when he was elected.  I knew a lot of dumb rubes in flyover country held way too much power the way things are currently set up.
 

When he stayed in power I definitely was like wtf?   So we made an airplane  that could fly around 2200 mph in the early 1960’s and kept it secret - man what will they be doing 60 yrs later?!  Well now we have this dipshit ruining the entire country and we just throw our hands up?

[Anastasis 23395]

19 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

I have said this and thought this 1000’s of times.  Seriously.  I didn’t think THAT much less of this country when he was elected.  

 

You should have recognized the dire nature of the situation when we were forced to pick between two totally shit options. 

 

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

18 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

You should have recognized the dire nature of the situation when we were forced to pick between two totally shit options. 

 

The people in charge of the country would be much smarter than the gen pop...I don’t mean elected officials.  Those are always clowns.  Welp, here we are...

[bolverk 29399]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

You should have recognized the dire nature of the situation when we were forced to pick between two totally shit options. 

 

If I recall, there were four major/minor party candidates on the ballot, each of whom received over a million votes).

1. Republican: Trump (Carnival barking clown)
2. Democrat: Clinton (Crooked but probably competent--definitely "plugged in")
3. Libertarian: Johnson (Q: What's Aleppo? A: *raspberry sound*)
4. Green: Stein (la la la)

If you're going to indict two shit options, you should be willing to say all of them were absolutely unacceptable. Now, in hindsight, which of the above four do you think would've handled this particular crisis (you know, the thread topic) would've handled this one the least badly?

[Anastasis 23395]

32 minutes ago, bolverk said:

If I recall, there were four major/minor party candidates on the ballot, each of whom received over a million votes).

1. Republican: Trump (Carnival barking clown)
2. Democrat: Clinton (Crooked but probably competent--definitely "plugged in")
3. Libertarian: Johnson (Q: What's Aleppo? A: *raspberry sound*)
4. Green: Stein (la la la)

If you're going to indict two shit options, you should be willing to say all of them were absolutely unacceptable. Now, in hindsight, which of the above four do you think would've handled this particular crisis (you know, the thread topic) would've handled this one the least badly?

Totally willing to say that.  Which one did you vote for?* Cause I didn't cast for any of them.  2016 was an abortion of unprecedented magnitude. 

*Note: I already know the answer.  

Edited March 28, 2020 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23395]

41 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

The people in charge of the country would be much smarter than the gen pop...I don’t mean elected officials.  Those are always clowns.  Welp, here we are...

But democracy?

[bolverk 29399]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Totally willing to say that.  Which one did you vote for?* Cause I didn't cast for any of them.  2016 was an abortion of unprecedented magnitude. 

*Note: I already know the answer.  

You didn't answer the question.

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

But democracy?

I know, I know.  Listen, the reason I respect you is your incredible ability to get me to be like ‘fuck it, he’s right.’

Such and such happens...Anastasis: does a good job pointing out the other side is every bit as stupid.  Me: God Damn It 

[Anastasis 23395]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

You didn't answer the question.

Which one of the system forced choices would handle this best?  I don't think there would really be any substantive difference wrt where we sit today to be honest.

[Anastasis 23395]

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You didn't answer the question.

BTW, you didn't answer mine. Do you think that the forced choice that you voted for would be handling this situation better or worse than Trump?

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

BTW, you didn't answer mine. Do you think that the forced choice that you voted for would be handling this situation better or worse than Trump?

Nobody would handle this situation worse than trump. Not you, me, Hillary, the ghost of Adolph Hitler, Pedo bear, Joe paterno, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, no one. 

[Continental Op 3934]

Hey look Anastasis turned yet another thread into a Both Sides festival. He's so above it all!

[bolverk 29399]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

BTW, you didn't answer mine. Do you think that the forced choice that you voted for would be handling this situation better or worse than Trump?

Yes. Do you think Clinton would've scrapped the entire play book along with the first string?

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

2 hours ago, Carl Spackler said:

Hey Treat, we've been saying this for three fucking years.

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Which one of the system forced choices would handle this best?  I don't think there would really be any substantive difference wrt where we sit today to be honest.

You can't be serious about this, right?  Well, if Hillary were President we know for sure Moscow Mitch and his bitches would have shot down any bailout bills.  That would have been different.

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

Why do people keep with the "Crooked Hillary" shit?  She and Bill have been investigated something like 2 million times and nothing has come out of it.  Dotard won't even turn over his tax returns, yet he's pure as the driven snow according to 40%.

[MissingInAction 24817]

Can someone tell me how da trumpz dollaz gun werk?

This reminds me of post ww1 germany printing money and driving inflation through their own fart boxes.

Edited March 28, 2020 by MissingInAction

[jimmyjazz 45557]

24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Which one of the system forced choices would handle this best?  I don't think there would really be any substantive difference wrt where we sit today to be honest.

I find that an astounding perspective.  But, I'm sure you'll have a zillion reasons to shout me down.

Final analysis:  Hillary Clinton would not have fucked this up NEARLY so badly and tens of thousands, if not more, lives would have been saved.

Spew away, this should be good.  LMAO.  #bothsides

[staboner 4958]

shoulda just had a gif off for this poll @F250

[Anastasis 23395]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Final analysis:  Hillary Clinton would not have fucked this up NEARLY so badly and tens of thousands, if not more, lives would have been saved.

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates.  If you can provide some solid evidence justifying the your projections, the timing that different policies would be enacted in, and some sensitivity analysis around your assumptions I would be more than willing to consider them. 

As it stands, I don't see much in the way of reasoned analysis.  But hashtags and untestable counterfactuals seem to to rule the day around here. 

[Anastasis 23395]

30 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

Hey look Anastasis turned yet another thread into a Both Sides festival. He's so above it all!

Meh. I have stated upthread the various ways that Trump imo has fucked up the response, and continues to do so.  There is nothing about this situation above it all.   

[JimmyJames 12271]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates.  If you can provide some solid evidence justifying the your projections, the timing that different policies would be enacted in, and some sensitivity analysis around your assumptions I would be more than willing to consider them. 

As it stands, I don't see much in the way of reasoned analysis.  But hashtags and untestable counterfactuals seem to to rule the day around here. 

Are you seriously asking us to show you proof that if Hillary had been elected president the death toll would lower ? Ok. I’ll get right on that professor.

[TexArcher 37508]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates.  If you can provide some solid evidence justifying the your projections, the timing that different policies would be enacted in, and some sensitivity analysis around your assumptions I would be more than willing to consider them.

Bless your heart.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Just now, TexArcher said:

Bless your heart.

That’s not proof! Show your work!

[ndawg 1242]

12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates.  If you can provide some solid evidence justifying the your projections, the timing that different policies would be enacted in, and some sensitivity analysis around your assumptions I would be more than willing to consider them. 

As it stands, I don't see much in the way of reasoned analysis.  But hashtags and untestable counterfactuals seem to to rule the day around here. 

Can you give us some evidence that you've thought this through rationally?

[Anastasis 23395]

5 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Are you seriously asking us to show you proof that if Hillary had been elected president the death toll would lower ? Ok. I’ll get right on that professor.

JJ1: Tens of thousands of lives, if not more, would be saved if dipshit politician 1 was in charge instead of universally agreed dipshit 2 being in charge.

A: I'd like to see that math.

JJ2: Are you actually us to show our work?

A: Well, yeah.  

Edited March 28, 2020 by Anastasis

[JimmyJames 12271]

Just now, Anastasis said:

JJ1: Tens of thousands of lives, if not more, would be saved if dipshit politician 1 was in charge instead of universally agreed dipshit 2 being in charge.

A: I'd like to see that math.

JJ2: Are you actually us to show our work?

A: Well, yeah.  

Doubling down is an interesting strategy. Not sure it’s gonna work, but hey, what the hell right?

[Anastasis 23395]

What a world.  

[tx 3 putt 76372]

we have states forming regional alliances to fight corona

we have a president telling states they need to 'thank' him and stop complaining / spreading false news 

this country is dead 

[staboner 4958]

HC, for all her flaws, is the villain we need to get on top of a global pandemic. I would think she would shine honestly. 

Shit, at least she would have listened. low fucking barrier i know

Now saying all of that, the US has some pretty substantial barriers to its long term recovery, but hey who's counting?

What are you drinking @Anastasis??  Death Spiral Cask Strength?

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

What a world.  

On the one hand you say trump fucked up royally, but on the other you demand “proof” that someone else would have done better. 

Cmon man. You’re a better troll than that. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Meh. I have stated upthread the various ways that Trump imo has fucked up the response, and continues to do so.  There is nothing about this situation above it all.   

Do you think Hillary or anyone else would have made every single bad move that dotard has made?  Change only one of them and it would have made a difference.

Best one would be don't disband the national pandemic team.  You don't think that would have helped substantially?

[Anastasis 23395]

1 minute ago, staboner said:

What are you drinking @Anastasis??  Death Spiral Cask Strength?

For those that have ears to hear, let them hear. 

[ndawg 1242]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

JJ1: Tens of thousands of lives, if not more, would be saved if dipshit politician 1 was in charge instead of universally agreed dipshit 2 being in charge.

A: I'd like to see that math.

JJ2: Are you actually us to show our work?

A: Well, yeah.  

This is where you're showing your ass.

JimmyJames engaged in conjecture in the context of grading Trump's leadership. I believe Nick Saban would have won more games in the last five years than Strong / Herman. That's also conjecture. Also fair, if I'm grading our hoad coaches.

You're stuck inside your framing of the discussion that demands an epistemological standard that is utterly irrational given the context. As if there could be no basis for his conjecture except empirical data gathered from an alternate universe where Trump lost in 2016.

The basis for JJ's very valid conjecture is that he hasn't been in a fucking coma for the last three and a half years. I'm beginning to wonder about you.

[staboner 4958]

2 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

we have states forming regional alliances to fight corona

we have a president telling states they need to 'thank' him and stop complaining / spreading false news 

this country is dead 

sadly its been that way for a while, which is what us ledgers have been saying for a long time.

This is the West's Chernobyl. Its just speeding up what is already happening.  

In Europe its the overstretched social system, heavy reliance on tourism and lackluster clumsy governments

In the US its the hyper inflated capitalist that doesn't give a shit about anyone else or the public good. 

In both places its just the quality of life and resource / person that is just greater than the global average.

Hey - you take the view at whatever elevation you want. Just keep us nuke free and we will be fine

[Anastasis 23395]

Just now, Fudge Nuggets said:

Do you think Hillary or anyone else would have made every single bad move that dotard has made?  Change only one of them and it would have made a difference.

Best one would be don't disband the national pandemic team.  You don't think that would have helped substantially?

I have not said any of that.  Specific projections on death count differentials have been made on this thread.  I am simply asking to show some math.

There is a whole other thread on the pandemic team where that topic has been batted around. 

At some point when epidemiology is involved the argument has to be somewhat more persuasive than "Orange Man bad at this".  I already agree with that.  Sorry for asking somebody to support their math after they put a number to it.

Y'all bitches sensitive AF.  

 

[jimmyjazz 45557]

24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates.

Well, far be it from me to suggest that listening to the vast majority of epidemiologists might be a worthwhile exercise.

The whole idea has been to reduce the peak caseload, not to reduce the total # of cases.  It's pretty much accepted among those who work in the field that earlier action and earlier testing would have resulted in a lower onslaught of our medical facilities.  Have we overwhelmed our facilities . . . yet?  Other than some hospitals in NYC, not to my knowledge.  Must we assume that such an overload will not occur?  Well, I don't know.  Seems impractical and misguided.

That said, you do you.  Demand I prove that which cannot be proved.  For fuck's sake, you are the poster boy of "smart but not wise".

[JimmyJames 12271]

29 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates.  If you can provide some solid evidence justifying the your projections, the timing that different policies would be enacted in, and some sensitivity analysis around your assumptions I would be more than willing to consider them. 

As it stands, I don't see much in the way of reasoned analysis.  But hashtags and untestable counterfactuals seem to to rule the day around here. 

Just quoting this again in case anyone missed it because it’s in my opinion one of the dumbest posts I’ve seen from a poster who obviously has some intelligence in him. Its truly remarkable. Asking for scientific evidence to prove an alternate reality. Maybe I’m just too dumb to understand it and it’s before our time.

[Anastasis 23395]

10 minutes ago, ndawg said:

This is where you're showing your ass.

JimmyJames engaged in conjecture in the context of grading Trump's leadership. I believe Nick Saban would have won more games in the last five years than Strong / Herman. That's also conjecture. Also fair, if I'm grading our hoad coaches.

You're stuck inside your framing of the discussion that demands an epistemological standard that is utterly irrational given the context. As if there could be no basis for his conjecture except empirical data gathered from an alternate universe where Trump lost in 2016.

The basis for JJ's very valid conjecture is that he hasn't been in a fucking coma for the last three and a half years. I'm beginning to wonder about you.

Sorry. Maybe I operate in a different world where when you put a number to things you actually have to support it with some actual data. Or at least some reasoned projections. 

 

  

[ndawg 1242]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Y'all bitches sensitive AF.

There's no sensitivity here. Look, I enjoy reading your posts, sincerely. You're a capable contrarian, and contrarians always have the same blind spot. Every once in a while, the truth is going to be hiding in plain sight, right in front of you, and you're not going to see it, because you're biased against any answers that can be satisfied by plain observation.

I think Nick Saban would have won 10 games at Texas last year. I ain't got no numbers to prove it, and that's no big deal.

Edited March 28, 2020 by ndawg

[Anastasis 23395]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Asking for scientific evidence to prove an alternate reality. Maybe I’m just too dumb to understand it and it’s before our time.

Counterfactuals wrt health care policy are testable. We have reasonable groups for comparison, with some additional control variable necessary. I have alluded to them in other threads on the subject. Sorry for partying. 

[bolverk 29399]

40 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Why do people keep with the "Crooked Hillary" shit?  She and Bill have been investigated something like 2 million times and nothing has come out of it.  Dotard won't even turn over his tax returns, yet he's pure as the driven snow according to 40%.

Guess I should've put quotes around it to denote sarcasm. Sorry for that.

But, yes, everyone play the game that she would've ignored all advice from expert epidemiologists who'd been studying the threat for years, fired them, and then put Chelsea's husband in charge of a shadow response task force to counter a no longer existent one to combat a pandemic with the capacity to kill more humans than any other in over 100 years, because "both sides".

So, Anastasis, who did you vote for as your chosen leader, as president of the United States, and as leader of the free world, who would've created a superior response than Trump, Clinton, Johnson, or Stein?

You seem to obviously care so much and are so thoroughly thoughtful. I'm sure you would've thought of a superior candidate than our constrained partisan system allowed. I'm absolutely unconvinced you would take it so insecirely and simply think that "burning it all down" would be the smart decision.

[ndawg 1242]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Sorry. Maybe I operate in a different world where when you put a number to things you actually have to support it with some actual data. Or at least some reasoned projections.  

Yes, that's precisely it. You operate in a world where every time a number is put to anything, data is required, regardless of context. That's the thing you're not seeing: context. There are contexts where a numerical guess absolutely appropriate.

We're seeing vastly different responses around the world to the pandemic, and vastly different outcomes. It's not hard to see that Trump wasted a lot of time that any president listening to their experts would have spent preparing the country. It's also not hard to consider the last few decades of Hillary Clinton's public life and gauge that she would have done the other thing.

I guess I'm getting riled up because I work in tech, and I keep running into people with this same lack of ability to contextualize discussion. You can say you prefer mustard to mayonnaise and they'll ask you to cite your sources, like it's a formal debate. So, sorry if I'm venting my frustration on you. But I think you're missing something that's literally right in front of you.

Edited March 28, 2020 by ndawg

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

I don't think that anybody has demonstrated that there would be a substantive difference in the case or death rates. 

Absent an alternate reality device that would "demonstrate" a substantive difference in the America blowing every other country out of the water in % increase of cases week of March 16 to the top of the leader board where we are now in confirmed cases, I'm going to go way out on a fucking limb here and speculate Hillary wouldn't have done any of this-

It wouldn't even take that much to be the richest country in the world and a bio-medical powerhouse to avert last place but continue sniffing your own gas.

[bolverk 29399]

He's constitutionally incapable, in spite of his vote that Trump poured gasoline on a grease fire with this crisis, to state that Hillary Fucking Clinton would've been better able to handle it, which wasn't part of the question to begin with -- a comparison that he brought up more than three years after the goddammed election.