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COVID-19 - Surgical Mask Debate - NOT N95

DanTheHorn

By DanTheHorn
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DanTheHorn

DanTheHorn 4925

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I am interested in what others think regarding surgical masks. Last week I did not wear a mask on my grocery trip and had an internal smirk seeing others wear a face mask knowing it does not protect the person wearing the mask. I changed my tune this week and wore a mask and sunglasses on my grocery trip for the following reasons before it became hot argument today.

1) Suppose to act like you have it even if you don't so wear a mask.

2) Wife says I was constantly touching my face on the first grocery trip without noticing. So mask would block hand touches directly to nose and mouth. Sunglasses rap so they block access to the eyes.

So I wore them and never took them off. Got home sanitized hands outside took them off discarded mask and sanitized sunglasses and then sanitized hands again.

Arguments against mask that don't make sense to me.

1) Mask can become infected and then can infect me when discarding. Well hell, I probably would already touched my nose or mouth if I infected mask.

2) Mask can cause you to touch face more. I guess if it is uncomfortable, I have seen people take them off and then put it back on while shopping. I say put it on and it only comes off before going back into the house.

I am thinking of making cloth ones that can be washed that way I am not fighting to find masks that are best used at hospitals anyway. 

What say you? To wear or not to wear? To make or to get disposables?

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-outbreak-sparks-face-mask-debate-should-you-wear-them

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/asia/coronavirus-mask-messaging-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Edited by DanTheHorn
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Celery Man

Celery Man 20962

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I don't have any and am not about to go out and buy medical equipment.  It may be that there is a distinction to be made in both availability and... efficacy or whatever.  But for me, going to the store = try to keep my face down, try not to touch things I'm not buying, my hands are lava and remain so until I disinfect when I get back to my car.

Replying because I want to chime in with the important advice for folks to mind their own fucking business in public.  Maybe someone wearing a mask is wrong for whatever reason, or maybe they have a compromised immune system and are terrified right now but need to get some shit to take back to their apartment to eat alone and scared.  Mind your own fucking business.

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DanTheHorn

DanTheHorn 4925

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Yea, I know it was wrong but like many here I could not help the internal bias, I felt it and happen to share in the post as way to say it was bullshit to have done so since I clearly changed my mind.

Edited by DanTheHorn
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Tailgate

Tailgate 3022

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I heard pre-pandemic that the Japanese actually wear them to not get you sick when they are sick.

FedEx cashier had one on today and he made everyone stand six feet back when he was at the register and when he needed you to input credit card or confirm address he stood six feet back while you reviewed the screen.

I personally think masks could only help...but a call for masks right now would create riot-level panic.

 

Edited by Tailgate
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Celery Man

Celery Man 20962

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that comment was definitely for the audience and not directed at you/in response to a perception on my part that you said anything wrong.  I'm interested in the discussion.

 

My aunt underwent treatment when she was dying of cancer that covered her with burns and made it very hard to walk although she seemed OK from a quick look.  She didn't use her handicapped parking lot placard because vicious assholes would shout at her.

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Don Johnson

Don Johnson 4754

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Seems obvious that it can only help.  That's why medical professionals wear them.  Also seemed obvious that the surgeon general was discouraging so that people wouldn't make a run on them, thus making them unavailable for hospitals.  I mean come on - when the best reasons against are a false sense of security and they cause you to touch your face more?

If you had to film an episode of Jackass where you get sneezed on by someone with CV-19, wouldn't you want the mask 100 out of 100 times?  Of course you would.

That said, I don't have any.

Edited by Don Johnson
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utee94

utee94 15825

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My mom and her group of church ladies have made pillowcases for Dell Children's hospital for years.  Their contact at the hospital recently asked them if they could switch to making fabric masks for the staff instead, so they're doing that, using all of the fabric and scraps that they were previously using for the kids' pillowcases.  She also made masks for the entire family, I picked some up a few days ago.

I haven't been anywhere public yet, but when I do, I'll have my choice of Spiderman, Toy Story, My Little Pony, or Star Wars.  Pretty certain I know which one I'll be rocking.

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DanTheHorn

DanTheHorn 4925

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7 minutes ago, utee94 said:

I haven't been anywhere public yet, but when I do, I'll have my choice of Spiderman, Toy Story, My Little Pony, or Star Wars.  Pretty certain I know which one I'll be rocking.

Yea mine will come from an old Texas shirt when I do make it. Maybe even a polo so that I am ready for game day. Just kidding, we are probably not going to have a football season this fall. By 2021 we may have immunizations or heard immunity or I made it through getting sick or am gone, either way I can watch from where I am at without concern.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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Yeah, while it may not keep out the virus, it will sure as shit help keep you from touching your face.  I haven't started wearing a mask in public yet but I wear gloves and keep my wrap sunglasses on.  I have a scratched cornea in my left eye and I rub it frequently (that's what she said).  Probably 20x/hour.  I use my second knuckle on my left index finger most of the time but it's way too much.  Between the glove feeling strange and keeping glasses on, it keeps from me doing it in public (still talking about the virus, yes).  I can usually last until I get in the car and sanitize and take off gloves and dispose of, but any little bit helps.  Yes, I realize all the double entendre.  

I'll probably start shopping with a mask soon though because of just itching nose or whatever, plus I clear my throat a lot because of GERD so don't want to make those around me uber paranoid.  

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5550

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I had to take my Dad to the hospital on Sunday, a close nurse friend gave us cloth masks because she was worried about him catching something while he was in the ER. She gave one to me also, but alas they wouldn't let me in the hospital. I've kept mine, because I think they are more likely to help (touching, spittle - giving and receiving, etc), but I really am not going anywhere so we'll see if/when I where it. 
I could be wrong, but IMO it is unlikely they do more harm than they help. If/When I start wearing them, I will have several so that everyday I start with a clean one and then I'll wash them once or twice a week. 
 

2 final points - 
a) OP what is this hot that you mention - gloomy overcast high of 46 here today (I miss Texas)
ii) MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS

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Jerry Callo

Jerry Callo 8704

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1 hour ago, Don Johnson said:

Seems obvious that it can only help.  That's why medical professionals wear them.  Also seemed obvious that the surgeon general was discouraging so that people wouldn't make a run on them, thus making them unavailable for hospitals.

This.  The Surgeon General did more than discourage the use, he flat out said "Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” Adams tweeted. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus"  The SG's statements might have been a noble lie, but a lie nonetheless.  

I don't have any surgical masks, but I might where a bandana like a wild west outlaw.  Might not help much, but I'd feel pretty cool. 

Also, flatulence is your friend when it comes to social distancing.

Edited by Jerry Callo
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LABEVO

LABEVO 928

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Posted (edited)

The research shows that any face protection lowers the likeness of catching or spreading. CDC / no CR but the administration lied about effectiveness of masks.

I have a few mask (not N95) that I bought from Lowes in Jan that we wear going to the grocery store. You can put the mask above steam for 10 mins to kill any germs / bacteria for re-usability. 

Edited by LABEVO
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DanTheHorn

DanTheHorn 4925

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1 hour ago, Wally Fairway said:

2 final points - 
a) OP what is this hot that you mention - gloomy overcast high of 46 here today (I miss Texas)
ii) MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS

I could have saved myself lots of grief on this thread if I had not mentioned my thoughts yet I thought it was worth it because like me I think people will need to change their attitude on surgical masks. Maybe if it was just me at the time  but I doubt it.

Edited by DanTheHorn
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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19103

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If I am in the grocerystore, I wear a scarf that I can wrap around my nose and mouth. I also carry packs of clorox wipes to pick things up, pay, etc...

When I am out walking my dogs, I do not wear a mask. 1. I am outdoors and stay very far from anyone else and 2. On long walks, we walk pretty far (3-4 miles) and relatively briskly. A mask would be uncomfortable as I do not like having my airways restricted (breathing through something is very, very uncomfortable to me).

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DanTheHorn

DanTheHorn 4925

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Quote

Target audience
Public health authorities and hospital administrators in EU/EEA countries and the United Kingdom.


Use of cloth face masks for protection against COVID-19 in clinical settings
There is limited guidance and clinical research to inform on the use of reusable cloth face masks for protection against respiratory viruses. Available evidence shows that they are less protective than surgical masks and may even increase the risk of infection due to moisture, liquid diffusion and retention of the virus. Penetration of particles through cloth is reported to be high. In one study, 40–90% of particles penetrated the mask. In a cluster randomised controlled trial, cases of influenza-like illness and laboratory-confirmed viral illness were significantly higher among healthcare workers using cloth masks compared to the ones using surgical masks [1,2]. Altogether, common fabric cloth masks are not considered protective against respiratory viruses and their use should not be encouraged. In the context of severe personal protective equipment (PPE) shortages, and only if surgical masks or respirators are not available, home-made cloth masks (e.g. scarves) are proposed as a last-resort interim solution by the US CDC until availability of standard PPE is restored

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/face-masks

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/cloth-masks-sterilisation-options-shortage-surgical-masks-respirators

Will if true this sucks.

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Saint Tacky

Saint Tacky 1614

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Off topic somewhat, but has anyone had to ask someone to back off and give some space?  I was waiting in self checkout line at the grocery store the other day (sans mask to steer it somewhat back on topic) and some old fart rolls up right on my heels and I could tell he was really pleased at how uncomfortable he was making me.  I had also just had an incident with a woman that practically climbed over my back to get to a bag of granola as if it was the last item on any shelf at Tom Thumb.

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40850

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2 hours ago, Jerry Callo said:

This.  The Surgeon General did more than discourage the use, he flat out said "Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” Adams tweeted. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus"  The SG's statements might have been a noble lie, but a lie nonetheless.  

I don't have any surgical masks, but I might where a bandana like a wild west outlaw.  Might not help much, but I'd feel pretty cool. 

Also, flatulence is your friend when it comes to social distancing.

If you can smell their fart, move apart.

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Guadaloopy

Guadaloopy 10973

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1 minute ago, gecko said:

Wife (no pics) is making us cotton masks using vacuum cleaner bag material as removable / replaceable filter insert. She’s a hell of a seamstress

My retired MiL has been going gangbusters with her sewing machine for a couple of weeks now.  She has a friend who is a teaching physician at Tech who asked for as many as she could send.  She sent us a batch as well.  She’s a quilter and has lots of scrap, so some of the patterns are... um.. interesting.  

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40850

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5 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

Off topic somewhat, but has anyone had to ask someone to back off and give some space?  I was waiting in self checkout line at the grocery store the other day (sans mask to steer it somewhat back on topic) and some old fart rolls up right on my heels and I could tell he was really pleased at how uncomfortable he was making me.  I had also just had an incident with a woman that practically climbed over my back to get to a bag of granola as if it was the last item on any shelf at Tom Thumb.

There is a video from Wuhan of a similar incident where a woman crowded a masked guy at a store check out line and wouldn’t back off. The dude proceeded to beat the ever-lovin’ shit out of the middle aged lady and really bloodied her face.

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15300

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Surgical masks were never made to protect the wearer.  They protect the patient.  Surgeons and doctors wear them when operating to keep any bodily fluids such as a sneeze or runny nose out of an exposed patients body.  They don't do diddly squat for this so don't waste your time other than they keep you from picking your nose while in the checkout line.  

I'd say for colds/flu they make more sense, as in for those they are symptomatic and likely to sneeze......keep that shit to yourself.  

Edited by BabaYaga
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Armybrat

Armybrat 40850

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Don't care.

Mrs. Brat made us some nifty masks with two layers of tight weave cotton blend cloth , elastic ear bands and a wire brace to pinch fit around the nose. As soon as we get the proper barrier material to insert into the pocket we will wear them out to the CVS & curbside pickup.

In the meantime I like to wear mine outside to lower the pollen ingestion. It has been a big help to alleviate the allergy gunge.

Am gonna get her to make one out of an older Burnt Orange shirt with the Bevo logo front & center.

spacer.png

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Fuck Tim Beck

Fuck Tim Beck 3822

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2 hours ago, Saint Tacky said:

Off topic somewhat, but has anyone had to ask someone to back off and give some space?  I was waiting in self checkout line at the grocery store the other day (sans mask to steer it somewhat back on topic) and some old fart rolls up right on my heels and I could tell he was really pleased at how uncomfortable he was making me.  I had also just had an incident with a woman that practically climbed over my back to get to a bag of granola as if it was the last item on any shelf at Tom Thumb.

Yes. A few to times.  And I want to punch them. People are morons. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13515

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1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Surgical masks were never made to protect the wearer.  They protect the patient.  Surgeons and doctors wear them when operating to keep any bodily fluids such as a sneeze or runny nose out of an exposed patients body.  They don't do diddly squat for this so don't waste your time other than they keep you from picking your nose while in the checkout line.  

I'd say for colds/flu they make more sense, as in for those they are symptomatic and likely to sneeze......keep that shit to yourself.  

People are being advised to wear them because asymptomatic people are thought to be making many other people sick. Just talking, not just coughing, may spread the virus. 

As far as protecting the wearer, it's possible a mask would help, if the person uses and discards it correctly. It would seem the chance of that is low.

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RayDog

RayDog 682

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Millions of people in the Far East and Southeast Asia wear masks in public when they are healthy to minimize infection and they all claim it works. Many of these are medical or cloth masks. I am not aware of any study to back up the claim, but the anecdotal evidence is compelling. 

What is clear is that a mask will stop the inhalation of larger droplets into the nose, mouth and lungs. This will reduce the viral load even if the mask becomes contaminated and spread to mucous tissue occurs. The reduction in initial viral load can prevent infection if it is below the threshold for the virus to take hold, or minimize the severity  of illness.

I don't buy the lie that wearing a mask does not benefit healthy persons. 

 

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SHOOTER12

SHOOTER12 8810

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2 hours ago, Saint Tacky said:

Off topic somewhat, but has anyone had to ask someone to back off and give some space?  I was waiting in self checkout line at the grocery store the other day (sans mask to steer it somewhat back on topic) and some old fart rolls up right on my heels and I could tell he was really pleased at how uncomfortable he was making me.  I had also just had an incident with a woman that practically climbed over my back to get to a bag of granola as if it was the last item on any shelf at Tom Thumb.

Oh hell yes.  People are freaking stupid.

Worse than that though, I nearly got into a fight with a Walmart employee this morning.  I was going back to get water and heard 4 sneezes in rapid succession.  I turned and it was some idiot stocking one of the dairy cases talking on his phone.  God forbid he stay off his phone so he can cover his sneeze, which he didn't.  After calling the idiot on it, the typical pleasantries were exchanged. "Fuck you, mind your own business etcetc.  After I checked out, I read the riot act to one of the managers about sneeze bastard, and other employees and vendors who are actually crowding up against and brushing against customers.

I have to go pick up water for work again tomorrow and I'd better not see the sneezing dumb ass while I'm there.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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This vid has been posted a couple time in threads and worth re-posting.  This is a top SK medical official heading their national covid response.  It's general consensus (and cultural norm) in SK/China/HK/Taiwan/Singapore that the public wearing masks significantly reduces risk of both being infected and spreading infection.  We're not talking about 99% barriers for those repeatedly being exposed to known sick patients.  You don't need 99%.  He also references masks inhibiting unconscious face touching, which is arguably the most common way we get infected with covid.  If covering your nose and mouth prevents automatic face touching until you wash your hands, practically anything is a whole lot better than nothing.

He talks about their view on masks from starting at the 15 min mark.

Spoiler

 

I'm comfortable wearing a neck gaiter/balaclava and wash it after I use it in public - about x1-2/week.  It's crazy how reflexive face touching is.  You don't even realize it until it's too late.

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Celery Man

Celery Man 20962

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Looks like the guidance is going to come down to wear masks.  I might have some ski gear or something laying around somewhere but otherwise I guess it's a bandana if I need to go to the store.  I can knit, but not really much at sewing.  Curious if what other folks are using or if there's good guidance on best materials but  I suppose its off to google.

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bernorange

bernorange 8362

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On 4/1/2020 at 4:31 PM, Saint Tacky said:

Off topic somewhat, but has anyone had to ask someone to back off and give some space?  I was waiting in self checkout line at the grocery store the other day (sans mask to steer it somewhat back on topic) and some old fart rolls up right on my heels and I could tell he was really pleased at how uncomfortable he was making me.  I had also just had an incident with a woman that practically climbed over my back to get to a bag of granola as if it was the last item on any shelf at Tom Thumb.

 

On 4/1/2020 at 6:50 PM, Fuck Tim Beck said:

Yes. A few to times.  And I want to punch them. People are morons. 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 7:20 PM, SHOOTER12 said:

Oh hell yes.  People are freaking stupid.

Worse than that though, I nearly got into a fight with a Walmart employee this morning.  ...

---->  https://www.surlyhorns.com/board/index.php?/topic/14302-personal-space-in-the-age-of-covid19/

 

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