Give me your top 10 NBA players of all time

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

29 minutes ago, Hate said:

The top team wins because Stockton can’t guard any of them.

That's where I lean.... Dirk ain't stopping any of those guys either, but damn if Dirk, KD and the guards get hot.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Patrick Bateman

[Iceman 2,726]

6 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

who is the third liability on D?

the 3 guys not named Jordan or Shaq.

 

Relative to alltime greatness.  Dirk doesn't belong on the floor.  Over Larry fucking Bird?  LOLz.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Iceman

[Goo Punch 4,275]

KD might not be an all time great defender, but he's definitely not a liability. 

[Iceman 2,726]

2 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

KD might not be an all time great defender, but he's definitely not a liability. 

I'd take prime Scottie or even The Worm over KD and have a overall better squad.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

well duh, but that still doesn't make KD a liability on defense. 

[Iceman 2,726]

Just now, Goo Punch said:

well duh, but that still doesn't make KD a liability on defense. 

dude.   Just let it fucking go.  

 

You don't need another shooter on a team with Jordan and Shaq.  You add shut down defenders.

And I'd replace Stockton with Bird in a fucking heartbeat.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Iceman

[TommyGufano 6,021]

KD is a pretty fucking dynamic defender when motivated. Certainly better than Magic on that end of the court

[Iceman 2,726]

Promise Rodman a 3 day weekend in (normal) Vegas at the end of the series, and you're set.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

How about this for discussion. Shaq picked the teams. You get no input in regards to who is on your roster. But name what version (ie what year you're choosing as their prime) of each player your taking to best suit your team

[Kermit 3,159]

Team A is just a fucking monster defensively. 

[Iceman 2,726]

39 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

How about this for discussion. Shaq picked the teams. You get no input in regards to who is on your roster. But name what version (ie what year you're choosing as their prime) of each player your taking to best suit your team

cut Shaq and take Kareem?

[TommyGufano 6,021]

1 minute ago, Iceman said:

cut Shaq and take Kareem?

lol. That's the opposite of what I was trying to say.

You have to use the players from Shaq's IG post. The post says each player is "in their prime". I'm asking when you would say each of those players' prime is. Some are kind of no-brainers, but a few would be pretty difficult to select what year is their prime.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

1 hour ago, Iceman said:

dude.   Just let it fucking go.  

 

You don't need another shooter on a team with Jordan and Shaq.  You add shut down defenders.

And I'd replace Stockton with Bird in a fucking heartbeat.

KD isn't a defensive liability. That's a fact. 

[Kermit 3,159]

42 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

KD isn't a defensive liability. That's a fact. 

He is against that team.

And that’s not to say that any of them can guard him either. He’s a nightmare matchup for all of those players.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Kermit

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

1 minute ago, Kermit said:

He is against that team.

On that team, he's probably the 2nd best defender.  Yea, Shaq controls the paint, but if you play with today's rules, Shaq would get killed in some PNR's.  Having to go against two post players would be to his advantage as he could try and stay on the interior.  If TD or Hakeem was hitting their pick n pop from 18-20, Shaq would find himself in no man's land a lot.  KD's defense and ability to guard 3-4 positions is actually pretty valuable within those constructs.  Stockton just kills that team though.  I guess you throw him on Magic, who takes him down on the block and forces a double and then you run the other 4 around the horn on rotations..... More I think about it, more I lean towards the Magic team unless the Jordan team just goes nuts from downtown.

 

[Kermit 3,159]

26 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

On that team, he's probably the 2nd best defender.  Yea, Shaq controls the paint, but if you play with today's rules, Shaq would get killed in some PNR's.  Having to go against two post players would be to his advantage as he could try and stay on the interior.  If TD or Hakeem was hitting their pick n pop from 18-20, Shaq would find himself in no man's land a lot.  KD's defense and ability to guard 3-4 positions is actually pretty valuable within those constructs.  Stockton just kills that team though.  I guess you throw him on Magic, who takes him down on the block and forces a double and then you run the other 4 around the horn on rotations..... More I think about it, more I lean towards the Magic team unless the Jordan team just goes nuts from downtown.

 

True. He can guard three positions, but they're just going to switch until they have Kobe or Lebron on Stockton. Of all the all-time greats, why Shaq chose that little weasel is beyond me. 

[Iceman 2,726]

7 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

On that team, he's probably the 2nd best defender.  Yea, Shaq controls the paint, but if you play with today's rules, Shaq would get killed in some PNR's.  Having to go against two post players would be to his advantage as he could try and stay on the interior.  If TD or Hakeem was hitting their pick n pop from 18-20, Shaq would find himself in no man's land a lot.  KD's defense and ability to guard 3-4 positions is actually pretty valuable within those constructs.  Stockton just kills that team though.  I guess you throw him on Magic, who takes him down on the block and forces a double and then you run the other 4 around the horn on rotations..... More I think about it, more I lean towards the Magic team unless the Jordan team just goes nuts from downtown.

 

KD is NOT the best 3rd or 4th guy on that particular squad.  That doesn't mean he sucks.  That doesn't mean he doesn't belong in the conversation.

I'd still take Scottie or Rodman in their prime ahead of him for the shut-down defense.  KD ain't getting the touches to leverage his shooting strength with MJ and Shaq on the floor.

Bird not on either team is still just dumb as fuck... but that's Shaq.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Iceman

[RollLeft 5,045]

 P Starter/Backup

5 Chamberlain/Shaq

4 Duncan/KMalone

3 Jordan/Lebron

2 Bird/Durant

1 Magic/Stockton

[dcar00 14,382]

Its really strange to me that Elgin Baylor isn't mentioned more as top 10

2 guys averaged 27 points and 13 boards for a career.  Elgin Baylor and....

 

 

Wilt Chamberlain

It is really fucking hard to average 27 points a game in the NBA for a career.  I don't care what era it is.

[dcar00 14,382]

15 hours ago, Iceman said:

KD is NOT the best 3rd or 4th guy on that particular squad.  That doesn't mean he sucks.  That doesn't mean he doesn't belong in the conversation.

I'd still take Scottie or Rodman in their prime ahead of him for the shut-down defense.  KD ain't getting the touches to leverage his shooting strength with MJ and Shaq on the floor.

Bird not on either team is still just dumb as fuck... but that's Shaq.

the 78-79 celtic team won 29 games.  the 79-80 team won 61.  not having Bird in your top 10 is stupid.

[conVINCEd 21,473]

1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

Its really strange to me that Elgin Baylor isn't mentioned more as top 10

2 guys averaged 27 points and 13 boards for a career.  Elgin Baylor and....

 

 

Wilt Chamberlain

It is really fucking hard to average 27 points a game in the NBA for a career.  I don't care what era it is.

No one has seen him play.  By all accounts, he was the prototype athletic wing that would come to dominate the nba decades after his career ended.

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

Its really strange to me that Elgin Baylor isn't mentioned more as top 10

2 guys averaged 27 points and 13 boards for a career.  Elgin Baylor and....

 

 

Wilt Chamberlain

It is really fucking hard to average 27 points a game in the NBA for a career.  I don't care what era it is.

No championships kills his legacy but by all accounts a beast and sort of player ahead of his time....

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

On 5/2/2020 at 9:34 PM, Goo Punch said:

who is the third liability on D?

Other than MJ, nobody else on the bottom team is guarding anyone on the top team effectively. Most of them have considerable experience against the guy guarding them too, so it isnt really a multi era comparison.

Head to head

Hakeem > Shaq

Duncan > Dirk

Lebron > KD

Kobe < MJ

Magic > Stockton

Who refs makes a difference too. 80/90s refs or today's refs? Stockton is the 2nd best defender on that team with 90s refs.  Zone D allowed? Doesn't matter really though. Blow out, but Jordan scores 40 in the loss. 

Also, y'all are underselling Stockton as a Jordan team member. He is probably the perfect PG for team Jordan. Still, they are getting swept. 

[Iceman 2,726]

Stockton is not better than Larry Bird, on virtually anything.  yeah assist stats...on constant pick and rolls.  So Larry's passing game is out of this fucking world, then you add in his leadership, shooting, clutch-ivity, and the only guy in the league who remotely approaches Jordan's will to win.

Only some hardcore Utah fan would ever pick Stockton on their squad ahead of Larry Bird... or a maybe a dumbass like Shaq might.

[Kermit 3,159]

2 hours ago, Iceman said:

Stockton is not better than Larry Bird, on virtually anything.  yeah assist stats...on constant pick and rolls.  So Larry's passing game is out of this fucking world, then you add in his leadership, shooting, clutch-ivity, and the only guy in the league who remotely approaches Jordan's will to win.

Only some hardcore Utah fan would ever pick Stockton on their squad ahead of Larry Bird... or a maybe a dumbass like Shaq might.

Just assume that in Shaq’s hypothetical world where this game could actually be played, Larry Bird is dead. 

[aggie08 21,561]

3 hours ago, Iceman said:

Stockton is not better than Larry Bird, on virtually anything.  yeah assist stats...on constant pick and rolls.  So Larry's passing game is out of this fucking world, then you add in his leadership, shooting, clutch-ivity, and the only guy in the league who remotely approaches Jordan's will to win.

Only some hardcore Utah fan would ever pick Stockton on their squad ahead of Larry Bird... or a maybe a dumbass like Shaq might.

You're way overthinking this. Nowhere did Shaq say that these two teams represent who he thinks are the 10 best players of all-time. Stockton, Dirk, and KD being included should be a pretty obvious tell. It was just an interesting matchup--that he probably didn't even come up with himself--that he passed along to his Twitter followers.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

My best guess is whoever put it picked who he has #1 at a position (seemingly limited to modernish era) and then picked the player he thinks was second best player at that position whose career at least partly overlapped with the player he picked at #1.

So he picked out: Magic, Jordan, LBJ, Duncan, 1 of the centers and then picked their counterparts accordingly. This at least somewhat mitigates all of the era arguments.I don't think I'd have landed on the same counterparts in a few instances.

My other observation is there's surprisingly little floor stretching for a list of 10 guys who are all-timers.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

6 hours ago, Iceman said:

Stockton is not better than Larry Bird, on virtually anything.  yeah assist stats...on constant pick and rolls.  So Larry's passing game is out of this fucking world, then you add in his leadership, shooting, clutch-ivity, and the only guy in the league who remotely approaches Jordan's will to win.

Only some hardcore Utah fan would ever pick Stockton on their squad ahead of Larry Bird... or a maybe a dumbass like Shaq might.

He picked Dirk, KD, LBJ, and Duncan over Bird. Stockton is a PG. Also, if Shaq made the picks it makes sense. He has never played with or against Bird. He barely played with or against Magic, but they got to know each other in LA.  He has played with or against all the rest. 

I think the Stockton pick comes from his experience in the 98 Western Conf Finals. Laker guards were all shut down in the sweep. Stockton was pretty good against them. Malone was an absolute beast though. Lakers had nobody that could guard him. 

If I was Shaq, I would have picked Gary Payton over him probably. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Drew 2,540]

9 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Other than MJ, nobody else on the bottom team is guarding anyone on the top team effectively. Most of them have considerable experience against the guy guarding them too, so it isnt really a multi era comparison.

Head to head

Hakeem > Shaq

Duncan > Dirk

Lebron > KD

Kobe < MJ

Magic > Stockton

Who refs makes a difference too. 80/90s refs or today's refs? Stockton is the 2nd best defender on that team with 90s refs.  Zone D allowed? Doesn't matter really though. Blow out, but Jordan scores 40 in the loss. 

Also, y'all are underselling Stockton as a Jordan team member. He is probably the perfect PG for team Jordan. Still, they are getting swept. 

Tell me how Hakeem, Duncan and Lebron are consistently guarding their counterparts either?  We talking prime of all these guys?  They're battles, but not so cut and dry.  Sure the guys on right aren't as good defenders as the ones on the left, but the ones on the right will score at will IMO.

Also if they're playing a modern, spread out 3 point game, the team on the right blows them out.  Who's taking the wide open three?  Just Kobe?  Tell me who's guard KD, MJ, and Dirk at the line or beyond?

I think the team on the left wins...but it's not nearly the walk away you think it is.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

8 minutes ago, Drew said:

Tell me how Hakeem, Duncan and Lebron are consistently guarding their counterparts either?  We talking prime of all these guys?  They're battles, but not so cut and dry.  Sure the guys on right aren't as good defenders as the ones on the left, but the ones on the right will score at will IMO.

Also if they're playing a modern, spread out 3 point game, the team on the right blows them out.  Who's taking the wide open three?  Just Kobe?  Tell me who's guard KD, MJ, and Dirk at the line or beyond?

I think the team on the left wins...but it's not nearly the walk away you think it is.

Why would a team play a spread out 3 point system they aren't built for?  They'd play an inside out game based on Hakeem and Duncan's post play.  Their biggest problem would probably be Kobe refusing to feed them the ball, but I'm making the assumption that everyone is playing to win and not to keep their scoring average up.  I'd argue that team 2 isn't built for a spread out 3 point system either.  

And I assume its prime for everyone.  We've seen prime Hakeem guard prime Shaq, and we've seen the reverse of that.  Shaq scores some points, but you forget that Hakeem was absolutely unstoppable.  In his prime years, there is nobody in the history of the league that could stop him. 

And LBJ does pretty well against KD.  Head to head, they both score 28.9 per game, but LBJ is better in rebounds, steals, and assists.  KD is slightly better in blocks.

Duncan/Dirk head to head is similar.  Almost identical scoring and Duncan leads in every other category except steals.  Duncan and Dirk have played each other 90 times, but didn't always guard one another.  

Kobe and MJ never played any prime games against one another, and I'm no Kobe fan, but he was 9 time all-defensive first team.  I think he'd be able to keep Jordan under his season average for scoring.  I also think Jordan would shut Kobe down overall, but would also be forced to collapse down on Hakeem and Duncan leaving Kobe open from 3.

As for the open 3 pointer, prime LBJ hits about 37%, which is better than prime Kobe's 35%.  Fat Magic shot 35% from 3, but prime Magic wasn't that great from 3.  

On team 2, KD prime is a 40% shooter, Dirk too although in his best years he didn't really attempt that many.  Stockton shot about 45% in his best year.  But if they are doing that, they are taking the ball out of Jordan's hands.  And while team 1 needs to run the offense through Hakeem, team 2 needs to run it through Jordan which won't be the free wheeling offenses that Dirk and KD play better in.  Either way, they will hit more 3s, but they are still going to miss 6/10 of them, they'll get wrecked on the boards, and they'll be unable to stop the other team from high percentage scoring in the paint.  But yeah, they could get hot from 3 and win a game.  They could also go ice cold and get blown out.  The inside game of team 1 is going to be more consistent.

Also if they are playing under current defensive rules, Hakeem and Shaq are going to be at the line nearly every possession.  Hakeem wins that FT matchup easily.  I guess nobody is allowed to foul out though.

[Kermit 3,159]

Watching Magic Johnson feed Kobe and Lebron on the fast break would be a wonder to behold, especially with Duncan and Hakeem pulling up the rear. You're talking about 4 of the best passers in the history of their positions, plus Kobe. 

 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

Forgive me if this has been covered in the thread, but what criteria are we using? The top 10 most accomplished players (for their career), the top 10 most dominant players while they were in their prime, the top 10 most talented players? I ask because that’s 3 VERY different questions. That’s why I’ve always laughed at the Jordan v Lebron debate. What question are you asking. If you’re asking who’s more accomplished and who put the fear of god into their opponents more, it’s Jordan. If you’re asking who the most gifted/talented basketball player to ever step foot onto a basketball court, it’s probably Lebron. 

[TommyGufano 6,021]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

Mostly in line with the lists here. Maybe a little more love for Shaq/Wilt here than on the Surly lists

10. Shaq

9. Kobe

8. Duncan

7. Bird

6. Wilt

5. Magic

4. Russell

3. Kareem

2. LeBron

1. MJ

[aggie08 21,561]

Not a bad list at all.  They threw in their obligatory eye-catchers to make the rounds on their talking head shows*, but otherwise pretty solid.

*namely:

13. Steph

14. KD

27. Giannis

Pippen ahead of Baylor, Barkley, and Robinson

[Hate 20,149]

I'm ok with Pippen being ahead of Robinson.. It was absolutely ridiculous to have Steve Nash ahead of Isiah Thomas.  Thomas is an asshole and has ruined everything he's touched since he retired, but he was two time champion while Nash never even played in a Finals.  I know Nash has two regular season MVP's, but Isiah was a better overall player, imo. 

[CBT 1,287]

Karl Malone over Dirk is horrible. 

[Kermit 3,159]

1 hour ago, CBT said:

Karl Malone over Dirk is horrible. 

I’m mean, Dirk had some issues with women in his career but he didn’t impregnate a child. That alone has got to knock Ol’ Steroid Elbows down a few pegs.

[conVINCEd 21,473]

Shaq ahead of Hakeem is wrong, and I say that as a Dallas fan.

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

14 hours ago, Hate said:

I'm ok with Pippen being ahead of Robinson.. It was absolutely ridiculous to have Steve Nash ahead of Isiah Thomas.  Thomas is an asshole and has ruined everything he's touched since he retired, but he was two time champion while Nash never even played in a Finals.  I know Nash has two regular season MVP's, but Isiah was a better overall player, imo. 

You are?  I mean Scottie was great but on his own, he's a 0 championship guy.  He's probably a 0 ECF guy.  Admiral had his warts, mainly going up against a prime Dream and losing in one series, but David was pretty easily the better player.  Scottie's big value add is defense, which doesn't always show up in stats, but David was just as good defensively.  I mean, Scottie played almost 200 more games and his WS and VORP are greatly behind David.  I like Scottie and stats don't tell everything but he's was a #2 for a reason.

Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Scottie Pippen*	1988	2004	1178	41069	18.6	.536	.191	.283	5.9	15.3	10.6	23.1	2.9	1.6	15.6	22.5		57.8	67.3	125.1	.146		2.3	1.8	4.1	63.2
2	David Robinson*	1990	2003	987	34271	26.2	.583	.007	.577	10.6	23.4	17.3	12.4	2.1	5.7	11.9	26.2		98.5	80.1	178.7	.250		4.4	3.1	7.5	82.

3 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Shaq ahead of Hakeem is wrong, and I say that as a Dallas fan.

Agreed.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Patrick Bateman

[TommyGufano 6,021]

5 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

You are?  I mean Scottie was great but on his own, he's a 0 championship guy.  He's probably a 0 ECF guy.  Admiral had his warts, mainly going up against a prime Dream and losing in one series, but David was pretty easily the better player.  Scottie's big value add is defense, which doesn't always show up in stats, but David was just as good defensively.  I mean, Scottie played almost 200 more games and his WS and VORP are greatly behind David.  I like Scottie and stats don't tell everything but he's was a #2 for a reason.

Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Scottie Pippen*	1988	2004	1178	41069	18.6	.536	.191	.283	5.9	15.3	10.6	23.1	2.9	1.6	15.6	22.5		57.8	67.3	125.1	.146		2.3	1.8	4.1	63.2
2	David Robinson*	1990	2003	987	34271	26.2	.583	.007	.577	10.6	23.4	17.3	12.4	2.1	5.7	11.9	26.2		98.5	80.1	178.7	.250		4.4	3.1	7.5	82.

Agreed.

Scottie was a blown Hubert Davis call away from an ECF in the only non-Jordan EC playoffs of his career. He also played 42 mins/gm for Blazers team that took LA to 7 in WCF.

I don't have strong feelings on Pippen vs Robinson, but I think you're underselling Scottie.

 

 

[Hate 20,149]

I don’t think being the second best player on a 6 time championship team is all that bad. I love David Robinson for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was that he was a great player. David was the second best player on 2 title teams. I’m not going to quibble with a few spots in the rankings because of my fandom and appreciation of Robinson. I have bigger issues with Giannis even being in that list and Durant being ranked that high.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

5 minutes ago, Hate said:

I don’t think being the second best player on a 6 time championship team is all that bad. I love David Robinson for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was that he was a great player. David was the second best player on 2 title teams. I’m not going to quibble with a few spots in the rankings because of my fandom and appreciation of Robinson. I have bigger issues with Giannis even being in that list and Durant being ranked that high.

are we sure Robinson was the 2nd best player on the 03 squad?

[Hate 20,149]

I guess you could argue that Manu was, but David gave up a lot of stats to TD. He and TD patrolling the paint made it very difficult for teams to score anywhere in the paint. He was also the go to post player when TD was taking a break. It was awfully nice to dump the ball into an all time great to get a needed basket while your other all time great was in the bench.

[Kermit 3,159]

Stephen Jackson was the second best player on the 03 squad. 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4,816]

Given that it's ESPN, that is a shockingly good list. I think most would agree on the top 9 in some order. A few thoughts:

- Shaq vs. Hakeem is a great argument. I'd take Hakeem.

- As noted above, Isiah too low.

- Pippen seems too high to me.

- I love watching Curry play, and he's one of the most impactful players ever, but Kevin Durant is a better basketball player, as was evident during their time together. I think Durant is properly ranked, and Steph is a touch over ranked.

- Lastly, and most importantly, fuck Karl Malone. Him being ahead of Dirk, Elgin and Moses is tragic. The forward version of James Harden. As important and telling as statistics can be, these are two prime examples of why it's important for people to actually watch the games (especially the most important ones).    

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

1 hour ago, TommyGufano said:

Scottie was a blown Hubert Davis call away from an ECF in the only non-Jordan EC playoffs of his career. He also played 42 mins/gm for Blazers team that took LA to 7 in WCF.

I don't have strong feelings on Pippen vs Robinson, but I think you're underselling Scottie.

 

 

Are you implying Scottie was the best player on that Portland team?  Which by most measures was a really nice "team" with a bunch of really good players but he was still probably 3rd most productive player on the team and that's giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe I'm underselling Scottie, but I'd probably need more than he was the 3/4th best player for a team who played a tough series, especially one where he didn't make the All-Star team nor any All-NBA teams for the season (at 34, not expected).  Scottie Pippen's a great player but there's no shame in not being a top 25 player, which he's not.  Guys like Robinson, Thomas, and Barkley were better players.

 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

40 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Stephen Jackson was the second best player on the 03 squad. 

Maybe at grabbing pussy.... but as a basketball player.... no.  Not even close.

Quote

are we sure Robinson was the 2nd best player on the 03 squad?

David had to manage his back, but when they were on the court.... yea, he was almost surely the 2nd best player.  Manu and Tony were just starting to contribute but both shot like shit in the playoffs.  Really different game back then, really a half court game with a lot of physicality.  Frankly, an ugly time for basketball as a whole.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Patrick Bateman

[Kermit 3,159]

1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Maybe at grabbing pussy.... but as a basketball player.... no.  Not even close.

David had to manage his back, but when they were on the court.... yea, he was almost surely the 2nd best player.  Manu and Tony were just starting to contribute but both shot like shit in the playoffs.  Really different game back then, really a half court game with a lot of physicality.  Frankly, an ugly time for basketball as a whole.

Statistically Tony carried some weight, and Manu for all his limited playing time had exceptional advanced stats, but Jackson just took some of those games by the pussy and fucked it into submission. See Game 6 against the Mavs, and Game 6 against the Nets. Plus I have a definite soft spot for him, even though he’s turned out to be a little bitch.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

5 hours ago, TommyGufano said:

Scottie was a blown Hubert Davis call away from an ECF in the only non-Jordan EC playoffs of his career. He also played 42 mins/gm for Blazers team that took LA to 7 in WCF.

I don't have strong feelings on Pippen vs Robinson, but I think you're underselling Scottie.

 

 

The Bulls were markedly worse in 94-95 before Jordan came back.  34-31 without Jordan, and 13-4 with him.  That kind of team performance puts Pippen in Mark Price territory.  While that Bulls roster was terrible and not really built for Pippen to lead, it was more or less the same roster from 93-94 so there was considerable regression.

As a 2nd option, Pippen may have been the greatest of all time, but when you talk about the best overall players of all time, you are usually talking about players who spent a lot of years as the best player on their team.  On the Blazers, he was maybe the 4th best player.  That team was pretty stacked.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

18 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The Bulls were markedly worse in 94-95 before Jordan came back.  34-31 without Jordan, and 13-4 with him.  That kind of team performance puts Pippen in Mark Price territory.  While that Bulls roster was terrible and not really built for Pippen to lead, it was more or less the same roster from 93-94 so there was considerable regression.

As a 2nd option, Pippen may have been the greatest of all time, but when you talk about the best overall players of all time, you are usually talking about players who spent a lot of years as the best player on their team.  On the Blazers, he was maybe the 4th best player.  That team was pretty stacked.

Sure. Other than losing their second best player, they were the same team. The regression was considerable; it was more pronounced than when MJ left and it was Scottie-Horace. When your surroundings are bare enough, nobody wins. MJ can spin tales about his baseball body all he wants, but the reason they lost is not because he wasn't still the best player in the world (he was) or out of shape. It was because that team wasn't good enough.

I don't know wtf yall are talking about with the Blazers. Sheed was their best player, but also a historical mental midget who couldn't be relied on. Scottie was 2nd-team all-defense and ran the offense. Maybe 4th best? You're misremembering or arguing in bad faith