Give me your top 10 NBA players of all time

[irishtexan 11,518]

MJ

Lebron/Kareem

Bird/Magic/Russell/Wilt

Stef/Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq

I can't do 10 because I think there are tiers. I wouldn't have included Stef in this before last night but you've got to now. 

It's really tough trying to figure out where to rank Russell and Wilt because I never saw them play, and it was such a different game back then. Particularly with Russell because he had like 5 hall of famers on his team.

It is funny to see all the millennials and gen z twats that never saw MJ play in the 90s arguing that Stef or Lebron are better.  

 

[irishtexan 11,518]

Here are some funny stats/quotes I came across while reading about Bill Russell today:

Quote

Russell was equally notable for his rebounding abilities, and he led the NBA in rebounds four times - (basketball reference stats below have him leading the league five times)

RPG per year:

56: 19.6

57: 22.7

58: 23.0

59: 24.0

60: 23.9

61: 23.6

62: 23.6

63: 24.7

64: 24.1

65: 22.8

66: 21.0

67: 18.6

68: 19.3

 

So dude averaged 24 rpg in 59 and did not lead the league. That's how bad shooting was back then. 

I also liked this quote from wikipedia about how Russell became the player/coach after Red Aurbach retired:

Quote

Celtics coach Red Auerbach retired before the 1966–67 NBA season. He had initially wanted his old player Frank Ramsey to coach the Celtics, but Ramsey was too occupied running his three lucrative nursing homes.

 

[aggie08 21,496]

That Steph is even in this conversation is absurd. Everyone else on "The List" was great immediately. You knew instantly--or at least within a year or two--that Kobe, Shaq, Timmy, KD, etc. were going to be special. Even before Steph's ankle imploded, his absolute ceiling was as a dude who may make a few All-Star games and be a less athletic Ray Allen.

Steph had to work on his handle, work on his defense, work on finishing at the rim, build strength, and rebuild his ankle.

And, even had he done all that, he's not where he is had he been pigeon-holed into playing like a traditional point guard like he was early in his career. He needed a coach to build an offense around his movement and gravity, and give him the absolute freedom to change the game.

[HornPhD 1,368]

9 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

i'm more concerned with your top 10 all time players than i am with your ideal team. Cap, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt- there's no shortage of all time great big men, so no doubt you can live without Shaq on your team. but do you rank him ahead of Kobe all time?

It’s a toss-up. I lean toward Kobe as he won 2 championships without Shaq. 

[HornPhD 1,368]

9 hours ago, ztejas said:

Please explain Curry over Duncan. 

@shadow_operative I think I put Shaq over Kobe. They're close for me.

Damn Jameson. Should have been Duncan, Curry, Kobe.  

[closetohumping 17,438]

1.MJ

2.Magic

3.Lebron

4.Kareem

5.Shaq

6Bird

7.Wilt

8.Duncan

9.Russell

10.Steph

 

 

Yep, no Kobe or Hakeem on my list.  KD makes the list if he actually wins a title without Steph.

Edited June 17, 2022 by closetohumping

[closetohumping 17,438]

Some interesting big man comparisons:

 

[bullzak 420]

13 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Yep, no Kobe or Hakeem on my list.  KD makes the list if he actually wins a title without Steph.

Going to have to disagree with your police work there Lou. Kobe was an all time great IMO. Five rings has to mean something. 

[bullzak 420]

And as a Steph fanboi I am glad he is getting his due. He is so much more than just a shooter. In crunch time he gutted the Celtics driving to the rack. 

He was a skinny little stick and remade his body. Legit stud. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

7 hours ago, Hate said:

It’s difficult to say he would have won more titles if MJ wasn’t in the league when he only made it out of the West 3 times.

i guess that's right, but then again look at the teams he played on. they may have had the heart of a champion, but he never had his proper sidekick like so many other stars- stockton and malone, GP and Kemp, Michael and Scottie, etc. he was putting teams on his back. if Hakeem had been able to play with Chuck or Clyde for 5-6 of their prime years then i think they make it to the Finals a couple more times. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by shadow_operative

[closetohumping 17,438]

On 5/22/2020 at 3:33 PM, conVINCEd said:

Kobe seems to have the largest variance among the players who make most people’s list.

I have a hard time with guys like Kareem and Dr. J, because while I saw them play, it was at the end of their careers and they were playing with something less than their A game.  I think it influences my opinion of them in a negative way.

I think they like how aggressive he is.  True alpha that dgaf.  Also his game was beautiful.  I'm more of an efficiency guy so Kobe isn't in my top ten. 

 

As for players not knowing shit, yea, pretty much.  See MJ and Lebron.  Both horrible GMs

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

9 hours ago, irishtexan said:

Here are some funny stats/quotes I came across while reading about Bill Russell today:

RPG per year:

56: 19.6

57: 22.7

58: 23.0

59: 24.0

60: 23.9

61: 23.6

62: 23.6

63: 24.7

64: 24.1

65: 22.8

66: 21.0

67: 18.6

68: 19.3

 

So dude averaged 24 rpg in 59 and did not lead the league. That's how bad shooting was back then. 

I also liked this quote from wikipedia about how Russell became the player/coach after Red Aurbach retired:

 

Pace a big difference too.  59' was like the year before a new chapter in NBA -- the entrance of Wilt.  Crazy to think Wilt came in and automatically league shooting % went up 15 points and went up like 5 straight years.  

[Sbbruin 21,841]

18 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

informal poll: you can only put one in your top 10 all time- who do you take- Shaq or Kobe?

Kobe.  Shaq was dominant, but Kobe was lethal.

[Michael Knight 12,977]

10 hours ago, irishtexan said:

Here are some funny stats/quotes I came across while reading about Bill Russell today:

RPG per year:

56: 19.6

57: 22.7

58: 23.0

59: 24.0

60: 23.9

61: 23.6

62: 23.6

63: 24.7

64: 24.1

65: 22.8

66: 21.0

67: 18.6

68: 19.3

 

So dude averaged 24 rpg in 59 and did not lead the league. That's how bad shooting was back then. 

 

 

Well there was this dude named Wilt Chamberlain that averaged 27 rpg that year, the next highest had 17. All those years that Russel came in 2nd Wilt came in 1st.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Michael Knight

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

On 8/4/2021 at 1:55 PM, shadow_operative said:

this guy has Hakeem as the starting Center but has Russell, Wilt and Kareem ranked ahead in the Top 10. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

3 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

this guy has Hakeem as the starting Center but has Russell, Wilt and Kareem ranked ahead in the Top 10. 

they had greater careers, but i'd still want hakeem as my starting C. 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

2 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

they had greater careers, but i'd still want hakeem as my starting C. 

peak Kareem is better than peak Hakeem.  Not with the flashy moves, but solid in all other aspects - scoring , rebounding, blocks, and a better passer.  Hakeem had better hands meaning more steals but that's the only major advantage. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

Have always thought Shaq > Kobe in their prime. Shaq could have won with a few scorers in the league at the time. Pau Gasol also underrated. He was crazy good.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

1 hour ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

peak Kareem is better than peak Hakeem.  Not with the flashy moves, but solid in all other aspects - scoring , rebounding, blocks, and a better passer.  Hakeem had better hands meaning more steals but that's the only major advantage. 

Hakeem had the greatest footwork of any big man ever. basketball was his fourth sport, and growing up playing sports like volleyball, soccer, and handball helped him out tremendously. his agility at his size and his ability to switch defensively might be second to none for big men from his era and before.

[SilasCoade 2,622]

This is tough. I have to have MJ, magic, bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan. The last 4 are a toss up among Steph, KD, lbj, wilt, Russell, Dr j, pippen, and draymond Green. 

 

Joker is seriously close to making the list too. 

 

[realgreggym 835]

Oscar, Bird, Wilt, West, Russell, Kareem, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron

[ztejas 43,418]

Hakeem's O is overrated. He turned the ball over a lot and didn't score that efficiently. I don't care who his teammates were. He was game-changing on D. Very good but not elite on the other end. 

Assuming @Llogg is just trolling with the Draymond quip. 

oh and yeah he didn't have LeBron in the first tier. I believe I've been had. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by ztejas

[SilasCoade 2,622]

Hakeem pulling those spares to 2 titles is incredible. His offensive game is obsolete by the standards of the current NBA, but it was absolutely elite. 

Yes the draymond bit was a joke. I fucking hate that guy. 

I was trying to keep my list to around 2 per position. That forward spot was tough to narrow down and I just don't like Lebron. He has never been a guy I felt like was a sure thing to get his team a bucket when they absolutely had to have one.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

name the 25 best perimeter players ever. you're down three with five seconds left. where is lebron on your list of guys you want taking that shot? i have to assume he's outside the top 10 on most lists. only question is how far down.

now say you're down two (or worse three) points with zero time left on the clock and a man at the line shooting two (or three). where is lebron on your list of guys you want taking these FTs? like 22 or 23? 

prime lebron was such a freak of nature that his all time greatness isn't questioned. but being that he's a consensus top 10 player ever (many/most have him top 5 ever) who is a perimeter player, at some point the fact that he isn't a great shooter and is unbelievably un-clutch from the foul line has to be held against him. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by shadow_operative

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

name the 25 best perimeter players ever. you're down three with five seconds left. where is lebron on your list of guys you want taking that shot? i have to assume he's outside the top 10 on most lists. only question is how far down.

now say you're down two (or worse three) points with zero time left on the clock and a man at the line shooting two (or three). where is lebron on your list of guys you want taking these FTs? like 22 or 23? 

prime lebron was such a freak of nature that his all time greatness isn't questioned. but being that he's a consensus top 10 player ever (many/most have him top 5 ever) who is a perimeter player, at some point the fact that he isn't a great shooter and is unbelievably un-clutch from the foul line has to be held against him. 

I agree but of course the argument against is that he was so dominant that he kept that majority of those clutch situations from occurring. Similar to Shaq (who of course is more extreme) - yeah he may not be your 1st/2nd/3rd choice for clutch situations but if he reduces the games that even have those clutch situations by 50% (just making up a number) it still nets out as pretty awesome.

[HookEm 2,467]

Quote

I'll be pretty surprised if they get back - feels like may be the one he'll go out on (not retire - but last Finals trip). Some stuff fell right and at some point it's hard to have the same drive. Mainly I wonder if they can stay healthy like this again. 

I won't be surprised at all.  Their young players are really talented and are only going to get better.  Poole, Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman are an excellent young core to build around. And they will be able to take their time and develop them.  Klay was also not "right" for most of the year.  This could easily be a 15-20 year run with another title or two thrown in.

Curry really should have 2 more titles, and probably 2 more Finals MVPs.  Imagine the conversations if he had 6 titles right now... and then got a couple more in the coming years.  The GOAT talk would start heating up.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

11 hours ago, ztejas said:

Hakeem's O is overrated. He turned the ball over a lot and didn't score that efficiently. I don't care who his teammates were. He was game-changing on D. Very good but not elite on the other end. 

Assuming @Llogg is just trolling with the Draymond quip. 

oh and yeah he didn't have LeBron in the first tier. I believe I've been had. 

lulz.  He beat Ewing, Robinson and Shaq to win 2 titles with superhuman efforts.  Best Center of his era. 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

5 hours ago, Llogg said:

Hakeem pulling those spares to 2 titles is incredible. His offensive game is obsolete by the standards of the current NBA, but it was absolutely elite. 

Yes the draymond bit was a joke. I fucking hate that guy. 

I was trying to keep my list to around 2 per position. That forward spot was tough to narrow down and I just don't like Lebron. He has never been a guy I felt like was a sure thing to get his team a bucket when they absolutely had to have one.

1995 Drexler wasn't a spare, a HOF top 50 player.  Others were Horry, Cassell, Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe - very good NBA players. They were a quick speedy team which played good defense and could shoot the 3. 

[Dbeasy 15,047]

I like Shaq but I don’t put him in my top 10 for one reason. So much of his game was bowling over defenders with uncalled offensive fouls it drove me crazy. 

[SilasCoade 2,622]

1 hour ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

1995 Drexler wasn't a spare, a HOF top 50 player.  Others were Horry, Cassell, Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe - very good NBA players. They were a quick speedy team which played good defense and could shoot the 3. 

93-94 the second leading scorer was Otis Thorpe. That dude was all right but he's nobody's pick as second option on offense for a championship team. We all love the big shot lore but Horry was always a limited role player with on elite skill. Smith was an above average guy but hardly a star. Cassell was a slightly above average guy over his career but he was a JAG on those Houston teams.

I'll give you Clyde in 1995. But the rest of the team was nothing special.

 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

1 hour ago, Llogg said:

93-94 the second leading scorer was Otis Thorpe. That dude was all right but he's nobody's pick as second option on offense for a championship team. We all love the big shot lore but Horry was always a limited role player with on elite skill. Smith was an above average guy but hardly a star. Cassell was a slightly above average guy over his career but he was a JAG on those Houston teams.

I'll give you Clyde in 1995. But the rest of the team was nothing special.

 

Aside from Pip and Rodman, who was really special with MJ?  Same for the Kobe-Shaq duo , aside from Horry. 

1994 Cassell came off the bench for 31 in Game 3 @NY to save the series for the Rockets.  Sam was also a 1 time All Star and lets not forget Mad Max.  They were very much above average in speed , quickness and athleticism in 1994, clearly the best team, had the best regular season record and I was surprised they went 7 with the thug Knicks.  

Of course had MJ never retired, the Bulls win their 4th straight, winning 55 games without him with an emerging Pip who was a top 3 player that year along with Hakeem and Barkley.  

[gsoda3 3,254]

Dirk
.
.
.
.
.
.
The rest

[SilasCoade 2,622]

1 hour ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

Aside from Pip and Rodman, who was really special with MJ?  Same for the Kobe-Shaq duo , aside from Horry.

I don't understand this comment in the context of the conversation. MJ is a consensus top-3 player. Him winning 6 rings with Pippen and the Spares would be an argument supporting his greatness. That 94 Rockets team had no one approaching Pippen's level. '95 if you want to say Clyde was on that level, sure, I'll give you that one.

With respect  to Cassell being an All-Star in his career, sure, but not while with the Rockets, so that's not really germane to the conversation about those teams. Being from another galaxy where, presumably, they do not have basketball, his performance on those teams was great, but he was a replacement level for humans.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

5 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I like Shaq but I don’t put him in my top 10 for one reason. So much of his game was bowling over defenders with uncalled offensive fouls it drove me crazy. 

he also got fouled with no calls more than anyone ever.

[closetohumping 17,438]

Horry was a unique talent for those days. 6'10" guy that can move, defend, block shots and shoot 3s.

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

I was slightly too young to see the early Celtics at the height of their dominance. But by the time the Knicks arose, I was fully engaged. So I've seen a fair bit of ball, much of it through the eyes of a Spurs fan. 

To me, all-timers are guys you could drop into any era and they'd still dominate. Their game might be different, but if would still be uber elite. Maybe that pushes Curry down the list, maybe not. But I'm confident Tim Duncan would still be one of the 10 greatest ever. Did he benefit from playing for Pop? I suppose...but he also didn't grow up with endless camps, trainers, nutrition programs, etc. Not a bad PF for a Caribbean swimmer. 

[realgreggym 835]

9 hours ago, Llogg said:

93-94 the second leading scorer was Otis Thorpe. That dude was all right but he's nobody's pick as second option on offense for a championship team. We all love the big shot lore but Horry was always a limited role player with on elite skill. Smith was an above average guy but hardly a star. Cassell was a slightly above average guy over his career but he was a JAG on those Houston teams.

I'll give you Clyde in 1995. But the rest of the team was nothing special.

 

I had season tickets back then and saw all of those games and I agree. They played well as a team but their talent was going to put fear into very many teams.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

i’ve got a new system:

the basketball savants: michael, magic, larry, steph, kd

the physical freaks of nature with world class skill: wilt, shaq, lebron…giannis, eventually (now?)

the all time great big men: wilt, kareem, russell, duncan, hakeem, jokic 

this is damn near your rip 15 all time players. about as close as you can get imo.

 

[redswingline 1,057]

I'm not a fan of comparing players across different eras because the game changes. Rules change, players are asked to do different things etc.

For example - they pussified the league around 2003 or so and removed the hand check and cut down on physical play. It's pointless to try and compare guys whose careers have come after those rule changes to players who played prior to those changes. Each era is different. My favorite era was when guys would rather knock down an opponent than give out hugs and high fives and become friends with the people they are supposed to beat.

Edited January 8 by redswingline

[closetohumping 17,438]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:19 PM, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

peak Kareem is better than peak Hakeem.  Not with the flashy moves, but solid in all other aspects - scoring , rebounding, blocks, and a better passer.  Hakeem had better hands meaning more steals but that's the only major advantage. 

Kareem over Hakeem is easy for me. Hakeem’s game wasn’t flashy until he was a bit older. Young Hakeem was a very good athlete 

On 6/18/2022 at 8:38 PM, Loch Ness Monster said:

Have always thought Shaq > Kobe in their prime. Shaq could have won with a few scorers in the league at the time. Pau Gasol also underrated. He was crazy good.

Best argument I’ve heard was if you had a random pickup game with all time greats, Shaq is the only must double team

On 6/19/2022 at 12:37 AM, ztejas said:

Hakeem's O is overrated. He turned the ball over a lot and didn't score that efficiently. I don't care who his teammates were. He was game-changing on D. Very good but not elite on the other end. 

Assuming @Llogg is just trolling with the Draymond quip. 

oh and yeah he didn't have LeBron in the first tier. I believe I've been had. 

If you look at Hakeem and Robinsons h2h numbers, Robinson was the more efficient player.  
 

in the Orlando series, Shaq was more efficient and put up better all around stats

On 6/19/2022 at 12:19 PM, Dbeasy said:

I like Shaq but I don’t put him in my top 10 for one reason. So much of his game was bowling over defenders with uncalled offensive fouls it drove me crazy. 

He also had as many uncalled fouls against him

8 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

i’ve got a new system:

the basketball savants: michael, magic, larry, steph, kd

the physical freaks of nature with world class skill: wilt, shaq, lebron…giannis, eventually (now?)

the all time great big men: wilt, kareem, russell, duncan, hakeem, jokic 

this is damn near your rip 15 all time players. about as close as you can get imo.

 

KD is a freak, maybe not the strongest and fastest but no 7 footer in history can do what he’s done

[Guest]

On 6/19/2022 at 2:37 AM, ztejas said:

Hakeem's O is overrated. He turned the ball over a lot and didn't score that efficiently. I don't care who his teammates were. He was game-changing on D. Very good but not elite on the other end. 

 

Now eliminate the guys who were liabilities/ not 'shut-down' on D, if you're going to play that game.  The lists are heavily biased towards offense.

Edited January 8 by slorch

[closetohumping 17,438]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Now eliminate the guys who were liabilities/ not 'shut-down' on D, if you're going to play that game.  The lists are heavily biased towards offense.

Disagree

kareem

hakeem

mj

kobe

russell

wilt

shaq

 

all elite defenders

[Guest]

Comment was mainly towards multiple lists during that 2022 timeframe that didn't list Dream at all. He was the best inside  defender in one the most physical eras of basketball. He's 13th in scoring and 9th in offensive rebounding, so he more than carried his weight on offense too.

[uoftorange 1,386]

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem 
4. Wilt - He's the only one of the much older era of ball that had any chance in today's NBA.  He was a better version of Giannis without the nutrition and workout routines of today.
5. Kobe
6. Magic
7. Bird - Hated him growing up, he's still awesome
8. Hakeem - Better at every skill but dunking than Shaq
9. Shaq - Love the guy, but he has zero excuse not to be number 1 on this list, the fact he isn't means we never saw his absolute best.  And he said Hakeem was better himself
10. Duncan

I don't put current guys except Lebron in.  I'll weight Durant and Steph's careers after they are done, they would probably be my 11/12 right now

Get the fuck out of here with anyone saying Russell.  He's Rasheed Wallace, sorry not sorry

[Brothahorn 10,087]

Dream vs Shaq is an easy call. If the game is tied in the last few seconds and you coach Shaq's team, you're going to send the double team when Hakeem gets the ball. If you're coaching the other team, you don't have to send the double team to help Dream--you can hope for a steal, block, altered shot, or something from Dream, who is clutch. And then there are free throws and the basketball elegance of Dream over the brute force of Shaq.
To me, Duncan is the toughest Top 10 call. Lots of accolades and accomplishments, and he did make clutch shots--but he missed some clutch free throws. Also, he often took the easier big man defensive assignment, particularly in the playoffs. You almost never saw him guard the best post player all game. Nit-picky, yeah, but we are talking Top 10. And how do you factor the cultural significance of Dr. J?  Anyway, here are my Top 10:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. LBJ
4. Bird
5. Olajuwon
6. Kareem
7. Russell
8. Wilt
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

Dr. J, Oscar, and Kobe are next. I don't think Steph is Top 10 material and KD will have to do a few more things before he works his way up to consideration.
Speaking of Hakeem, the first 3:40 of this video are something else. 
 

That first basket where he uses his dribble to create space and then the 2nd where he drives and dunks are why he is the best big man to me. What other big man could do that with his grace and athleticism? Then come down and beat you with a post up game that couldn't be stopped.

[dcar00 14,181]

this is difficult but 

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Robertson, James, Shaq

next 10 tier Steph, Duncan, West, Hakeem, Mikan, Dr. J, KD, Cousy, Dirk, Petit

[dcar00 14,181]

comparing Bill Russell to Rasheed fucking Wallace is a take I guess.

[uoftorange 1,386]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:37 PM, dcar00 said:

comparing Bill Russell to Rasheed fucking Wallace is a take I guess.

Pretty damn accurate one at that.  Tell me where I'm wrong

[Fastbreak 3,984]

Some have speculated that if blocks stats were kept, Russell would have averaged 8+ a game. He was considered the best or 2nd best player (wilt) every year of his career. Rasheed was never in the top 10 or maybe 20 of that convo.

[Fastbreak 3,984]

Other fun stats - Wallace had a career high of 18 boards in a game. Russell never had a season where he averaged less than 18.6 (22.5 for career). Wallace had a career high in assists per game of 2.8. Besides his rookie season that would have been the lowest of Russell’s career (4.3 career).

Good troll though