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The end of the current form of colleg football

2300 Nueces

By 2300 Nueces
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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 55901

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1 hour ago, ButtFumble said:

so you are looking at a 12 team conference that averages a subsidy from student fees and the academic side of over $8 million

Not disagreeing with your entire premise, but again, these numbers use university accounting definitions of profit.  So if Arizona's AD expenses include athletic scholarships of $100M, that's not a true $100M cost to the university, but that gets counted anyways, so if they show revenues of $500M and costs of $508M, then that difference gets counted as a subsidy, even if no money actually changes hands.  Same concept applies to depreciation expense on facilities, which will show up on an income statement, and anyone with a basic understanding of accounting understands that depreciation expense isn't a real cost.

https://www.bannersociety.com/2019/8/12/20704195/college-football-athletic-budgets

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ImissWallyPryor

ImissWallyPryor 9046

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

I'll make that call -- absolutely zero of them.  

Mosts of the things that athletic department accounting calls "costs" aren't costs at all.  

There is a lot of truth to this. And the “as we know them” comment earlier is just hedging. We all know there were changes coming, anyway. Maybe this will accelerate things - or make changes a bit more noticeable  - but there will still be football, basketball, baseball, and most Olympic sports programs will survive. 

Edited by ImissWallyPryor
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ButtFumble

ButtFumble 5297

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5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Cal is on a whole different level of fucked by debt than any other AD in the country.

this article is a few years old, but it is probably still pretty accurate

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-01-04/college-football-s-top-teams-are-built-on-crippling-debt

I found it interesting at the time that for some reason the Big 12 was the one conference they picked to list individually even though the Big 12 has very good debt management with only Texas in the top listing (and not near the top) and Texas and OU clearly able to cover their debt vs others on that top 10 list 

https://www.lubbockonline.com/article/20150613/SPORTS/306139867

the above article is also older, but it shows that Texas Tech does have a plan for their debt and they have been able to build facilities (paying cash) since that time and with the improvement in mens BB and even the slight improvement in womens BB they have paid some of that down faster in the last couple of years......what is going on now is probably not a "good", but I am sure Tech will manage

it also shows the low overall debt of the Big 12 in general and low debt service payments

and again one needs to consider that some of the programs on that top 10 list and some with high debt loads are also running annual deficits some years with their athletics AFTER academic side subsidies and student fees....the Big 12 is not

 

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ButtFumble

ButtFumble 5297

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Not disagreeing with your entire premise, but again, these numbers use university accounting definitions of profit.  So if Arizona's AD expenses include athletic scholarships of $100M, that's not a true $100M cost to the university, but that gets counted anyways, so if they show revenues of $500M and costs of $508M, then that difference gets counted as a subsidy, even if no money actually changes hands.  Same concept applies to depreciation expense on facilities, which will show up on an income statement, and anyone with a basic understanding of accounting understands that depreciation expense isn't a real cost.

https://www.bannersociety.com/2019/8/12/20704195/college-football-athletic-budgets

I can agree with some of this

sure you can look at the aspect of a university with 38,000 to 48,000 students can say that the tuition of 400 to 600 student athletes is not meaningful and really comes at "no cost", but on the flip side at most universities (all public schools in Texas) student housing is a self funding enterprise and so that cost has to come from somewhere and I don't think most schools are strictly putting it on the backs of students that live in dorms only (IE giving student athletes free rooms and then making up the cost on all the other dorm residents).....plus food is not free, nutritionist are not free, books are not free  and on and on...and most places give off campus housing allowances 

if you have 400 athletes and you are saying tuition and fees are $9,000 for a year then that is $3,600,000 in money that you can call zero expense and money from one picket into the other......but when you are running an student fee and academic side subsidy of 2X+ that amount then you have bigger issues to look at and less room for calling it "non material"

and with a non/not for profit enterprise it really does not matter how you depreciate facilities you have to pay for them somehow and maintain and update them how you carry that does not matter the cost is still there

so yes you can throw strictly "tuition and fees" into the basket of money going from one pants picket into another, but you can't really do the same with a lot of other expenses....and with UT like someone else pointed out (for baseball specifically, but I suspect with all sports) the university is getting "out of state" tuition rates even for in state eligible athletes and that helps to explain how UT shits away so much money.....but if you try and take that from the academic side that is a real impact to them not just an imaginary one

true the impact would not be the same at a school that shows $4 million in student fees for athletics (a real cost to regular students) and $4 million in academic side transfers beyond those fees because that is adding non existent money to one side and paying it back to the other with nothing....but when you are already playing that game at a high "cost" well when you start running low on real money you have already used up all the book keeping trickery and suddenly you are dealing with real money and real cost 

I would much prefer to be in a situation where you still have room to play games vs one where you have used that up

Edited by ButtFumble
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Extra Anejo

Extra Anejo 99

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Could anyone explain to me how Division 2 athletic programs stay in business if D1 is suddenly in such dire straits?  

They may already be in better shape for survival than D1. They have operated with very little income besides the paid appearances in D1 pre-conference games. They probably already know what they need to do simply because they have no dependence on TV and bowl money other than the welfare received from the NCAA.

Edited by Extra Anejo
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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14816

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On 4/14/2020 at 11:49 AM, Beau Vine said:

The numbers that you have are utter crap.  Baseball has 27 players.  They get 10.7 scholarships.  Those scholarships are counted as a cost, even though it's literally money going from one university pocket to the other.  And at UT, the athletic department counts every athletic scholarship at out-of-state tuition rates regardless of where the athlete is from.


Meanwhile, that is 16.3 baseball players who are paying their own way.  Please show me in your numbers where that is counted as revenue attributed to the baseball program.  

The financial strains placed on college athletics are about 99% due to coaches salaries and bloated administration.  

EByI18dXYAAc9P-?format=jpg&name=small

The athletic scholarship line item is horse shit.  They're just letting them got to classes.  They're also booking that bases on out of state tuition rates and those skyrocketed from 2005 to 2018.  It's a fake expense line.  They're also missing facility spending.

You have assistants now making millions of dollars year and stadiums that are football palaces.  That's going to change.

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14816

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56 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

So it's almost like this black line increasing is almost completely irrelevant:

EByI18dXYAAc9P-?format=jpg&name=small

Basically.  Saying scholarships is an expense to the AD only makes sense in accounting world.  It's like me saying my wife not paying rent is a monetary gift to her.  It's just moving money around.

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ImissWallyPryor

ImissWallyPryor 9046

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18 hours ago, bernorange said:

Colleges won't be playing football, but TV networks are going to broadcast new games live.  How, you ask?  The answer is really quite simple.

  Hide contents

spacer.png

 

That’s obviously fake. I had that game, and there were always one or two lineman just spinning in circles. 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 55901

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1 hour ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

That’s obviously fake. I had that game, and there were always one or two lineman just spinning in circles. 

Hahaha, that really was the worst fucking game of all time.  Remember how you did passing?  Loading that tiny cotton football into the "quarterback's" hand and trying to hit one of those fuckers with it.

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BevoSwag

BevoSwag 272

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On 4/13/2020 at 4:01 PM, CooterBrown said:

The top 40 programs should use this opportunity to form their own league outside of the NCAA.  There's probably 20 programs that don't really want to fund money loser expensive football programs so they'll bail first. 

 

This a thousand times ^^^^

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Ignatius

Ignatius 4151

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14 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Hahaha, that really was the worst fucking game of all time.  Remember how you did passing?  Loading that tiny cotton football into the "quarterback's" hand and trying to hit one of those fuckers with it.

Lol yeah and whichever player it ‘touched first’ was the one that “caught” it. I had brawls with friends far more violent than any football game over which of the 8 plastic figures In the scrum first touched that tiny piece of foam traveling at roughly 400 MPH...

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SwanderedTalent

SwanderedTalent 5761

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16 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Hahaha, that really was the worst fucking game of all time.  

of all the Christmas gifts I ever got, that has to be the one that had the biggest dropoff between the excitement of opening the package, and the disappointment once I got a chance to actually play it

first of all the players on the package were painted to look like the Cowboys and.... I don't remember, probably the Redskins, but the players that came with the game came in either all red or all yellow

secondly the gameplay was non-existent and there weren't any useful instructions (or, obviously, Internet) to tell you how to do anything other than create a giant gridlock at midfield

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ButtFumble

ButtFumble 5297

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https://www.kold.com/2020/04/17/university-arizona-announces-plans-pay-cuts-furloughing-employees/

Arizona looking to take pretty dramatic measures and there is a chance this could happen to a lot of others......or hopefully this does not happen to AU or many others and this is just preparing for the worst that does not come

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

and looking at the AU athletics finances

in 2014 here are their numbers

Year                  Ticket Sales                  Contributions             Rights / Licensing    Student Fees                  School Funds                  Other                Total Revenues

 

 

 

         

 

2014             $14,931,449                      $44,264,977                    $29,941,303                      $0                           $7,901,134                  $2,872,17                  $99,911,034

 

by 2018 they had added a student fee that raised $1,132,276 (so very small), and their other academic support was up to $11,331,638

more importantly their revenues were $95,867,717 (so down over 4 million from 2014) and their expenses were $103,329,464   

so even with the new student fee and increased academic side support they had a SINGLE YEAR deficit of $7.5 million

it is going to be hard for a lot of schools in that position to keep that up or to not look for all available options to correct it

 

and to be clear this could happen to a lot of other schools

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

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kopp0e

kopp0e 1135

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On 4/16/2020 at 1:33 PM, Lerka Lerka said:

Fuck me, one realignment themed thread was more than enough.... 

Well, just to toss this in, it seems chatter is about of Washington looking to ditch Wazzu (in a move with Oregon/USC/UCLA/Arizona State/Colorado) to XII:

Replying to
I hope they remain loyal to the conference but if USC bails the conference will start to unravel. I could see a Big 12/Pac merger and leaving out about half the schools.
2:47 PM · Apr 16, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
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TXK

TXK 0

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On 4/18/2020 at 10:39 AM, kopp0e said:

Well, just to toss this in, it seems chatter is about of Washington looking to ditch Wazzu (in a move with Oregon/USC/UCLA/Arizona State/Colorado) to XII:

Replying to
I hope they remain loyal to the conference but if USC bails the conference will start to unravel. I could see a Big 12/Pac merger and leaving out about half the schools.
2:47 PM · Apr 16, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

UW, Oregon, USC, UCLA, Arizona State and Colorado to the Big XII would be awesome. 

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jinx

jinx 2636

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Posted
On 4/14/2020 at 10:44 PM, Beau Vine said:

Could anyone explain to me how Division 2 athletic programs stay in business if D1 is suddenly in such dire straits?  

How do high school sports "stay in business"?  There isn't anywhere close to the expenses at D2

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