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The Man in the High Castle (all seasons)

Hagbard Celine

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Hagbard Celine

Hagbard Celine 10,923

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With the advent of surly we have the opportunity to consolidate all discussion of all seasons here.  The latest news is possibly fake news, but in the world of highcastle it might be fitting....

this screencap indicates a Season 3 release date of 1 June:

https://hiddenremote.com/2018/04/04/high-castle-s3-release-quietly-announced/

usnuEerl_t.jpg

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Mileslong

Mileslong 4,728

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I have always loved the scenario (for the sake of literature or discussion) as to what the world would look like if nazi Germany had won WWII.

 

Besides the fact that Jack Kennedy probably would have been president and pushing the US to be sympathetic toward the Nazis of course.

 

I read a book called Fatherland which deals with this and I recommend it. They also made a movie about it.

 

Anyway, I hate the fact they are introducing freakin’ time travel into this series. The basic premise of a nazi controlled planet is more than interesting enough without introducing supernatural or science that doesn’t even exist yet.

 

 Im waiting for dragons to be into season four, which has already been approved BTW for 2019

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Spankytoes

Spankytoes 1,743

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2 hours ago, Mileslong said:

I have always loved the scenario (for the sake of literature or discussion) as to what the world would look like if nazi Germany had won WWII.

 

Besides the fact that Jack Kennedy probably would have been president and pushing the US to be sympathetic toward the Nazis of course.

 

I read a book called Fatherland which deals with this and I recommend it. They also made a movie about it.

 

Anyway, I hate the fact they are introducing freakin’ time travel into this series. The basic premise of a nazi controlled planet is more than interesting enough without introducing supernatural or science that doesn’t even exist yet.

 

 Im waiting for dragons to be into season four, which has already been approved BTW for 2019

I've gone back and forth on this show. One one hand...Nazis. Always an interesting premise. I agree, the fictionalization of what the U.S. would be like is interesting. But, at its heart, its a Sci-Fi show. I'm not a Sci-Fi fan at all. The entire premise is keeping away some magical cut film that will inspire enough people to revolt against the occupiers. That's pretty stupid. The time travel aspect is even worse. 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9,939

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Phillip K Dick's works have translated well to film and The Man in the High Castle is no exception. The cinematographer/s and directors have done a terrific job with this series. The screenwriting for the series has been solid; there was no way to translate the novel into film without taking liberties deviating from the book. I applaud the efforts.  Smith's storyline is well done in the series. Hell, just seeing the architecture planned by Nazis in the series demonstrates the power of visual storytelling. It is a complicated story. I am looking forward to how they move it forward next season.

I would love to see someone take on Dick's "Ubik" (his best work, in my opinion) and Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian" (McCarthy's best work as well, in my opinion, although "Suttree" is right up there with Blood Meridian). There have been attempts to put Ubik and Blood Meridian on film, with no success. The Man in High Castle and other serialized novels we have seen lately (like Game of Thrones) gives me hope I will see Ubik and Blood Meridian on film in the future. Blood Meridian is so vast in scope and scale that it may still be impossible to film. But unlike Game of Thrones and Westworld, there is an on-ramp and an off-ramp in both Ubik and Blood Meridian (the stories have already been written, unlike Game of Thrones, which remains a work in progress). 

Fiction is fiction. It requires some suspension of realty, which is understandably difficult (especially for those trained in the sciences).  

I agree with those who dislike needless magic to extend the story. With technology advancing so rapidly, I am optimistic we will continue to see unimaginable advances in technology in our lifetimes. Imagine a novel written in 1980 suggesting most Americans will have supercomputers in their pockets by 2018. For many in 1980, the suggestion of Americans having a handheld device with more power than a Cray Supercomputer would have been met with laughter and derision from many; the Kray computers of the time were enormous in size.

The power to imagine is an author's greatest gift. It's a gift that requires a deft touch. Sometimes its better if the author ignores how the technology advanced (like Huxley and Orwell) and focuses instead on the impact of the technology on civilization and individuals. For some stories (the Alien screenplays, for instance), audiences rightfully deserve films with fidelity to past works in the story timeline. 

The Man in the High Castle's magic has been premised on a quick end to WWII and German genocide to "quickly eliminate the need to feed useless eaters." Eliminating the burden to care for conquered civilians allowed the Germans to accelerate technology development rapidly - not without unintended consequences. That works for me in the fictional world of the series; it broadens the dystopian consequences of an Allied loss in WWII for humanity as a whole. It also provides some symmetry with the bleeding edge of technology today.

Short version - I can rationalize and reconcile the fictional issues raised by the premise of the book at this point.

If for no other reason, I look forward to the next season to see if the producers care enough about the series to demand plausible truth telling from the writers and whether the writers have the skill to communicate essential truth in this work of fiction. 

 

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Chet Steadman

Chet Steadman 940

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I finished S2 back in January and remember thinking that episode would be my last.   Just too many things going on and with the exception of a few scenes, it was becoming painfully slow.  If it wasn’t a scene involving Obergrubben Smith I found myself playing on my iPhone    

A part in of me would like to watch S3 but I’ll likely pass unless the reviews are overwhelmingly positive and it’s heads and shoulders better than last season.  

Interesting concept though.  

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TexasHooch

TexasHooch 5,142

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Looks like they released s3 tonight instead of tomorrow. Here I go!

The recap of s1 and s2 was very good but it's a bit hard to find. The episode is Season 3 episode 0. You currently need to scroll to the end of season 3 episodes to find it.

Saw the preview of season 3 and it seems they're finally driving headfirst into the supernatural.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4,580

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Loved this season.   In particular, I thought they did a good job of making the multiverse more scientific and less supernatural, which made the whole show more realistic to me.   Enough to suspend my disbelief, at least. 

Clever how a requirement for travel is that your counterpart has died (or otherwise doesn't exist) in another parallel universe, and that it was the massive imbalance in lives lost depending on the outcome of WW2 that set this all in motion.

 

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Js1

Js1 85,573

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28 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i really need a recap, i was pretty lost during the first episode of season 3

I thought the little recap was just fine. But there’s the 30 min recap of seasons 1-2 if you scroll past episode 10

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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I thought I was going to get some work done until Juliana Crane learned how to give a proper shave.  Now I gotta see what happens on the next episode, so if anybody asks...yeah-I'll be in after lunch.  Probably.  Maybe.  We'll see.  

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AUS-97HORN

AUS-97HORN 11,823

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binged on Friday, saw the first 7 eps.    Then completed the final 3 yesterday and today.

still a solid show, I agree the loss of the hyper supernatural explanations helps move the show along.

 

My only gripe with the ramping up of the  "confrontation" between Japan &  Germany was the idiocy of  the show saying the Germans were putting up an oil embargo on the Japanese and it was impacting the shit out of Japan's  ability to run their empire. 

So assuming every nation in the Pacific Ocean is part of the Japanese empire, an oil embargo would have almost no impact on them.

Even assuming  in this world Germany owns all of Africa, the Mideast, all of Europe, through to Manchuria, as far South as India , plus 3/5 of America & Canada (including all of the great plains & Texas oil reserves  and  for shits and giggles, lets give the Nazi's all of South America as well....

that would still leave the Japanese with ALL the oil in California,  (which in 1940  represented 17% of  the national supply),  plus all of the oil in Indonesia (which is the primary reason Japan went after it in WW2, plus Malaysia.... that would give them more than enough oil to handle their entire empire,    oh yeah.... and we havent even mentioned ALASKA  and western Canada which have a shitload of oil as well.  

I know, its a fake show, but its lazy fucking writing.... even if there were no other oil fields found in the rest of the pacific, California would have been able to pump out more than enough for the whole fucking Pacific Empire to still be swimming in oil in 1962

 

Edited by AUS-97HORN
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Guest Lobo

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It is a bit lazy on their part that in 1962, they think the greater Japanese Empire had no massive access to crude.  But again, we're to believe it's a slightly different parallel world.  Perhaps strategic reserves were used up in force posturing to the Reich in the 50's.  Maybe Americans scorched every reserve as a last ditch guerilla effort in the mid 40's.  And just now, are vertical wells being put online again.  

Plus, look at the Reich in the Americas.  Maybe there's all kinds of stuff going on off-screen, but the showrunners have demonstrated to us that they'll display pretty much everything to us and not pull out a bunch of backpocket shit.  the Nazis have their scientists, engineers, physicians, politicians, and even artists in abundance in the Americas.  Shit, their Fuhrer seems to visit every fortnight so as to inspire new invention and creativity.   Whom do we see in the Pacific States?  Almost in entirety, just security/police forces and a small economic trade group.  According to the source material which I think is colored by the developments I just described, the Nazis have a leg up on energy while the Japanese are more worried about assimilating a culture that is obviously closer to Germanic than Asiatic.  The Nazis are exploiting the Americas for resources.  The Japanese seem to be treating her simply as a place to plant flags and buy trinkets.  

What's doubly curious to me is that the leadership hierarchy of the Nazis is transparent.  We see everyone up and down the foodchain vying for power.  When it comes to the Japanese, it's all about local custom.  It's a closed loop of people demonstrating power, influence, respect, and custom.  Sure we see a token Admiral or Yakuza boss here and there, but it's largely just the same few guys taking care of the same circle of shit in the same few cities.  We never hear about the Emperor or the leadership back home.  There's a reason for that and that's why I love this show.   

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'stache

'stache 21,865

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I'm through Episode 4 and enjoying it, but I have a question that goes back to last season.  Smith was a solder for the U.S. Army and witnessed D.C. being nuked.  He's now full Nazi, very high ranking, and moving up.  What is the likelihood that (a) he would completely disavow the U.S. and agree that the Nazi's were right, and (b) the Nazis would trust a former enemy combatant to be fully loyal to the Reich?  I also wondered how likely would it be that so many American's decided that they enjoyed Nazi rule in scenes where it seems that they are mostly happy and loyal to the Reich.  I can maybe see it over time, through generations,  but it's only 20 years since D.C. was nuked.  That also tells me that there wasn't any agreement but surrender by the U.S.   I can see many accepting Nazi rule, but I would like to think it wouldn't be enthusiastically embraced within 20 years.  But then again, today's cloak room environment makes me think it's completely possible.

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Js1

Js1 85,573

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7 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'm through Episode 4 and enjoying it, but I have a question that goes back to last season.  Smith was a solder for the U.S. Army and witnessed D.C. being nuked.  He's now full Nazi, very high ranking, and moving up.  What is the likelihood that (a) he would completely disavow the U.S. and agree that the Nazi's were right, and (b) the Nazis would trust a former enemy combatant to be fully loyal to the Reich?  I also wondered how likely would it be that so many American's decided that they enjoyed Nazi rule in scenes where it seems that they are mostly happy and loyal to the Reich.  I can maybe see it over time, through generations,  but it's only 20 years since D.C. was nuked.  That also tells me that there wasn't any agreement but surrender by the U.S.   I can see many accepting Nazi rule, but I would like to think it wouldn't be enthusiastically embraced within 20 years.  But then again, today's cloak room environment makes me think it's completely possible.

I thought it was kind of implied he/his family really struggled through the Great Depression and the idea of national socialism really was something he was drawn.

But really - Helen was pregnant when DC got nuked.  He clearly made a decision that would benefit his family. 

The Reich, after invading and conquering a lot of Europe, promoted the conquered to police the population locally and promoted them/used them.  Frenchmen ruled Nazi occupied France.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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Half the SS was conscripted from conquered populations in real life.  Dick knew that and wondered why it should be any different in the world he created.  

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4,580

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I'm through Episode 4 and enjoying it, but I have a question that goes back to last season.  Smith was a solder for the U.S. Army and witnessed D.C. being nuked.  He's now full Nazi, very high ranking, and moving up.  What is the likelihood that (a) he would completely disavow the U.S. and agree that the Nazi's were right, and (b) the Nazis would trust a former enemy combatant to be fully loyal to the Reich?  I also wondered how likely would it be that so many American's decided that they enjoyed Nazi rule in scenes where it seems that they are mostly happy and loyal to the Reich.  I can maybe see it over time, through generations,  but it's only 20 years since D.C. was nuked.  That also tells me that there wasn't any agreement but surrender by the U.S.   I can see many accepting Nazi rule, but I would like to think it wouldn't be enthusiastically embraced within 20 years.  But then again, today's cloak room environment makes me think it's completely possible.

In real life, George Rockwell, who's also in the show, fought for the US in WW2 and later headed the American Nazi party.   So (a) actually happened, and would have been more likely and widespread had the Nazis actually won.   We also know in the show that there was a war in America, because they said John Wayne fought at the Battle of Dayton.   If turncoat American troops like Smith fought for the Nazis against fellow Americans, it's not a stretch to think that the Nazi high command would trust them, especially after 20 more years of loyal service. 

As far as the American population goes, millions of the most likely enemies of the Nazis would have been killed in battle or exterminated.   Every kid would have been subjected to heavy propaganda their entire lives.  And, because of Gestapo tactics, there would have been great pressure on every remaining person to at least appear supportive in public, lest someone inform on them.  And when we get glimpses of the inner circle of the major American Nazis, we're seeing the worst of the traitors.  But it seems like plenty are still willing to fight back, if only there were hope.   The people in the Pennsylvania bar weren't loyal to the Nazis.   They're just living their lives, trying to survive. 

It's a nice touch on the show that the Nazis left the powerful American symbols like the Statue of Liberty for the immediate post-War period while they normalized the American Reich. 

Edited by Mojo Hand
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AUS-97HORN

AUS-97HORN 11,823

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just for clarification, DC was nuked in Dec 1945,  and I am pretty sure at the end of S3 its no later than mid-1964.   

In season 2 they mentioned that in 1953 Smith was either a commandant, or otherwise a senior officer in the Cincinnati concentration camp----- which they expounded upon in season 3 with the Smith flashback nightmares.

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Js1

Js1 85,573

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9 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

just for clarification, DC was nuked in Dec 1945,  and I am pretty sure at the end of S3 its no later than mid-1964.   

In season 2 they mentioned that in 1953 Smith was either a commandant, or otherwise a senior officer in the Cincinnati concentration camp----- which they expounded upon in season 3 with the Smith flashback nightmares.

If there were US-based concentration camps after the war, I'd say Joe and Jane Public fell in line with the Nazis pretty quickly with that threat.

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