2020 Presidential Election -- Biden v Trump: Sleepy Joe vs Dopey Don [Results begin on page 409]

[immamac 42521]

Just now, Red Five said:

Whoa, where'd those goalposts go? You said they were equally bad. 

It's the same bad. America is still fucked both ways, I believe joe biden won't intentionally fuck us for personal gain though. 

[Hank Kingsley 20710]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

Wait, you guys think Biden is the best person in America eligible for office of the President? 

Respectfully, wake the fuck up. 

Everyone on this goddamn board, outside of literally 2-3 posters, preferred a different candidate in the Democratic primary. You started your whole diatribe with a false argument. Do better.

 

[immamac 42521]

Sure thing bud whatever. Biden sucks. That's my argument. Trump sucks worse. 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4670]

4 minutes ago, immamac said:

 

Wait, you guys think Biden is the best person in America eligible for office of the President?

Someone with more time and energy will correct the rest of your sophomoric, bull shit post, but virtually no one in this thread is claiming this.  You implied above that Biden is equally as bad a Trump, which is laughably stupid.  Do better. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23359]

Everyone knows Biden sucks.  We just don’t want to Hillary him b/c you know, end of America and all. 

[StassneyHorn 6540]

“Apology tour” needs to be ripped up like “fiscal conservative”

[gmr548 16517]

It's true though so what's mind bottling. Biden is really fucking bad. He's just a decent person. 

Which still makes the distinction very clear and the decision very easy.

[Eastwood 4394]

Biden has come right out and said he is a transitional candidate. He knows his role. He's the reset button. He probably won't even run for a second term. That alone is worth my vote compared to the alternative.

[Red Five 40666]

3 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's the same bad. 

Lulz. Ok. 

[immamac 42521]

Just don't think things are gonna get better. They just aren't going to get worse. Everyone has just come to expect the next day to be more bad shit. Having that not happen is not progress it's stopping a hemmorage.

[SydneyCarton 47885]

I view stopping a hemorrhage as progress. 

[immamac 42521]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

52 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's true though so what's mind bottling. Biden is really fucking bad. He's just a decent person. 

Which still makes the distinction very clear and the decision very easy.

My point is people don't know how much that actually matters.  

I'm not saying don't vote for Joe Biden, I'm just saying blanket saying people are stupid or confused or incapable of reason for not knowing is bogus. There's plenty not to like and when you don't like either how do you choose which shit sandwich to eat? 

[Goredho 17349]

The shit sandwich that won’t kill you to be re-elected, I think.

[immamac 42521]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

I view stopping a hemorrhage as progress. 

I'm not advocating for Trump or against Biden. I'm saying it's not a fucking cut and dry to people as what was stated. They both suck and scare the shit out of people. Biden seems like a better choice from a decency perspective, but some people aren't as plugged in and don't know if that's enough for them. 

[Nivek 16861]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

The answer, as with all things, is it depends.  Sounds like it has to do with the depth of fracking:

2018 story on fracking/earthquakes in western PA

Basically.  Wyoming had a case where it was directly related (shallow), as does Western Canada and a few others.   Hydro frac monitoring (microseismic) is available and relatively inexpensive and allows for a frac company/operator to observe the fluid migration in near-time.   I have seen fracs just piss into faults and operators didn't give a shit until they started producing too much water weeks later.   The main issue with fracking is the lack of monitoring.  Some of the oversight (DOE's NETL) is a bit cozy with the operators and have basically campaigned on a single case in Greene County, PA  where they monitored 6 wells, had both faults and some fluid/stress migration and tracers did not show communication to the nearby aquifer.   

In Canada, they would shut down operations if frac monitoring recorded over a certain threshold (+moment mag.) and many operators would opt for a cheaper form of microseismic monitoring called induced seismicity, which uses fewer stations, but basically only looks for bigger events.   But it is basically operating on the idiot light philosophy on your car's dash. 

/PSA by Nivek

[immamac 42521]

If you want to convince undecideds to vote for Joe Biden it's not just about decency. Those people are already fucking decided. 

Undecided voters are torn between their ideology and uncertainty. What has Biden provided to help them choose?

The thing is there are so few undecideds it doesn't matter and that's why he ran on the decency and sanity platform. There's enough RVAT and fed up people that if everyone votes based on decency then the election is a landslide. 

[Dahobbs 17449]

11 minutes ago, immamac said:

Wait, you guys think Biden is the best person in America eligible for office of the President?

No one, literally no one, has said that. But he is, objectively, better than Trump in every single way, from having actual defined policies actually intended to help Americans, to, you know, not wanting to sell us out so he can build hotels in Moscow, to not gutting the governmental infrastructure necessary to run a country. 

Also, some of his policies are legitimately better than we had before. Decriminalizing marijuana? Yes please. Ending the war on drugs may be one of the the single most important things that can be done in this country. I don't have the desire to go into detail on all of his policies, but I think you are giving them short shrift by just calling them a continuation of what came before Trump. 

[SydneyCarton 47885]

Just now, immamac said:

I'm not advocating for Trump or against Biden. I'm saying it's not a fucking cut and dry to people as what was stated. They both suck and scare the shit out of people. Biden seems like a better choice from a decency perspective, but some people aren't as plugged in and don't know if that's enough for them. 

I know you’re not man. I was just making a quip. 
 

I think if there’s a blue wave there’s a non zero chance that Biden could end up being a transformational President. I like his climate plan fine, and I think he’ll be motivated to make some real changes forward. Would those things have also been done by another candidate? Sure, probably. But  there’s cache in having an elder statesman eliminate the filibuster or pack the courts over say a Mayor Pete. I believe he could move us a few big steps forward in big directions. Dismissing that because you think any other candidate would have done it isn’t really fair. As has been proved, none of those candidates could win against Biden. Talking about people not being energized enough because Biden when they couldn’t get their candidates ahead of Biden seems like unfair criticism as well. 

[immamac 42521]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

No one, literally no one, has said that. But he is, objectively, better than Trump in every single way, from having actual defined policies actually intended to help Americans, to, you know, not wanting to sell us out so he can build hotels in Moscow, to not gutting the governmental infrastructure necessary to run a country. 

Also, some of his policies are legitimately better than we had before. Decriminalizing marijuana? Yes please. Ending the war on drugs may be one of the the single most important things that can be done in this country. I don't have the desire to go into detail on all of his policies, but I think you are giving them short shrift by just calling them a continuation of what came before Trump. 

I'm playing the devil's advocate of an undecided voter. I fucking voted already I'm a super decided voter. It's not unfathomable to understand why they are undecided. 

[Bookman 4611]

36 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

This is not true. Trump was a candidate not incumbent. He hadn’t completely mishandled a global pandemic resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths. And he was running against the only candidate whose unfavorables matched his. 

Keep up the negativity though in case the reverse jinx is a real thing

Certainly there’s more experience with him, but anyone who thought he’d react differently in a pandemic didn’t understand for whom they were voting.

[Tuco 5076]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

If you want to convince undecideds to vote for Joe Biden it's not just about decency. Those people are already fucking decided. 

Undecided voters are torn between their ideology and uncertainty. What has Biden provided to help them choose?

The thing is there are so few undecideds it doesn't matter and that's why he ran on the decency and sanity platform. There's enough RVAT and fed up people that if everyone votes based on decency then the election is a landslide. 

Bullshit.  If anyone is undecided at this point, it's not because after doing their analysis of various policy positions, they are still unmoved.  They are undecided because they are only tangentially involved, and it will come down to who they'd rather have a beer with.  It's all about decency.  

[Sawbonz 27438]

2 minutes ago, Bookman said:

Certainly there’s more experience with him, but anyone who thought he’d react differently in a pandemic didn’t understand for whom they were voting.

I’m pretty sure if we had a crystal ball and knew there would be a pandemic Hillary would have won

 

i mean she probably would have won if she had bothered to visit Wayne county, Milwaukee, and philly 

[DigglerontheHoof 21065]

9 minutes ago, immamac said:

I'm not advocating for Trump or against Biden. I'm saying it's not a fucking cut and dry to people as what was stated. They both suck and scare the shit out of people. Biden seems like a better choice from a decency perspective, but some people aren't as plugged in and don't know if that's enough for them. 

Yes, it is that fucking bad.  One is a decent human the other is actively destroying our democracy.  Jesus tittyfucking Christ.  

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

I find it interesting the "Biden sucks" line I keep hearing.  No matter who the Dems nominated that person would be demonized as someone who is a socialist/communist, who would take your guns, keep killing babies (abortion) and all the other things the Republicans would throw out there.  This would include Warren, Kamala, Bloomberg, Bernie, Yang, Mayor Pete, Oprah, Tom Hanks, it doesn't matter.  While Biden is old (yeah I get it) he is light years better than Donald Trump who is a criminal, a con man and just plain bad for the United States in every way, shape and form.  Biden will surround himself with competent people that will run the country correctly.  You may disagree with some of their policies but they will be competent.  

[Anastasis 23394]

53 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Pretty much throwing down the David Sedaris line for anyone who says something as stupid as that.

To put them in perspective, I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. “Can I interest you in the chicken?” she asks. “Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it?”

To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.

 

Why would you eat anything out of the airplane galley where they are preparing platters of feces?  I bet it all tastes like shit after comingling.  

[WBT 20422]

6 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Bullshit.  If anyone is undecided at this point, it's not because after doing their analysis of various policy positions, they are still unmoved.  They are undecided because they are only tangentially involved, and it will come down to who they'd rather have a beer with.  It's all about decency.  

I would imagine people that are engaged and undecided dislike Trump for all the usual reasons but don't want to vote for Biden because they're against the Democratic Party's platform.  It's not as if the two are mutually exclusive.  But at the end of the day, most just find Trump unacceptable.

Edited October 18, 2020 by WBT

[immamac 42521]

1 minute ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I find it interesting the "Biden sucks" line I keep hearing.  No matter who the Dems nominated that person would be demonized as someone who is a socialist/communist, who would take your guns, keep killing babies (abortion) and all the other things the Republicans would throw out there.  This would include Warren, Kamala, Bloomberg, Bernie, Yang, Mayor Pete, Oprah, Tom Hanks, it doesn't matter.  While Biden is old (yeah I get it) he is light years better than Donald Trump who is a criminal, a con man and just plain bad for the United States in every way, shape and form.  Biden will surround himself with competent people that will run the country correctly.  You may disagree with some of their policies but they will be competent.  

I think people took my rant as "personal opinion" of why Joe Biden is awful and we shouldn't vote for him or whatever. Everyone in this thread is decided. That is the logic people use to say "fuck I may not want to vote for Joe Biden, is trump really that bad?" <----this isn't a stupid take by any means just because you already decided based on decency.

[Gatorubet 30117]

Had a conversation with someone who actually said both candidates are so equally bad they struggled to figure out who to vote for. That was mind bottling to me.

There are a lit of successful yet fucked up people in this world. A college degree is no guarantee that its holder is a critical thinker, but the marked difference in demographics shows why the least educated support Trump.

Knowing how to look at facts and listen to rhetorical devices and know you are being grifted is not always an innate skill. A college (and certainly a liberal arts) degree has value in teaching those skills. I have a not-so accomplished BIL who cannot separate the obvious BS from the truth. He accepts what Levine and Rush say at face value.

When I tried to tell him about some “no true Scotsman” language in some blog post he got angry. He’d rather be sure without thinking about it.

[immamac 42521]

2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

There are a lit of successful yet fucked up people in this world. A college degree is no guarantee that its holder is a critical thinker, but the marked difference in demographics shows why the least educated support Trump.

Knowing how to look at facts and listen to rhetorical devices and know you are being grifted is not always an innate skill. A college (and certainly a liberal arts) degree has value in teaching those skills. I have a not-so accomplished BIL who cannot separate the obvious BS from the truth. He accepts what Levine and Rush say at face value.

When I tried to tell him about some “no true Scotsman” language in some blog post he got angry. He’d rather be sure without thinking about it.

Like what the fuck just because someone doesn't think like you and is educated doesn't mean they aren't a critical thinker. Stop painting undecideds as braindead non functioning blobs of society.

[BrickHorn 18194]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

It's true though so what's mind bottling. Biden is really fucking bad. He's just a decent person. 

I don’t understand this view at all. What about Biden is so bad? Because he’s not a progressive zealot? Good. He’s a decent man who has America’s best interest at heart, will surround himself with capable advisors, understands foreign policy and America’s role as a leader on the world stage, and knows how to govern by building consensus. That pretty much describes the ideal President. 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4670]

6 minutes ago, immamac said:

Like what the fuck just because someone doesn't think like you and is educated doesn't mean they aren't a critical thinker. Stop painting undecideds as braindead non functioning blobs of society.

Any person truly undecided at this point is a brain dead, non functioning blob of society.

[Bama Chick 28596]

I would imagine people that are engaged and undecided dislike Trump for all the usual reasons but don't want to vote for Biden because they're against the Democratic Party's platform.  It's not as if the two are mutually exclusive.  But at the end of the day, most just find Trump unacceptable.

True and in the case of those unicorns - Biden himself has nothing to do with their decision. They’d be more reluctant with, say, Elizabeth Warren, who would be objectively a “more transformative candidate” but she’d be much more susceptible to the usual boogeyman scary commie attacks than Joe Biden.

That’s why ultimately despite Biden’s flaws he was probably actually the perfect candidate for this election.

This country has been slowly sliding down a hill since Ronald Reagan; Trump just set the hill on fire and added in a contagious pandemic. NONE of the multiple democratic candidates would have been able to stop the slide in four or even eight years.

We have a lot of maintenance work and emergency triage to do before we can even begin to try and start to schlep back up the hill.

And Biden is the perfect person for that job.

If my house is on fire and I have the choice of a boring fireman or an charming arsonist who swears he knows how to put out the fire because he started it, I’m going with the fireman.

[immamac 42521]

2 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

Any person truly undecided at this point is a brain dead, non functioning blob of society.

The fact that you are trying to sell me on this take is telling for why America is so far away from actually being fixed.

[immamac 42521]

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

True and in the case of those unicorns - Biden himself has nothing to do with their decision. They’d be more reluctant with, say, Elizabeth Warren, who would be objectively a “more transformative candidate” but she’d be much more susceptible to the usual boogeyman scary commie attacks than Joe Biden.

That’s why ultimately despite Biden’s flaws he was probably actually the perfect candidate for this election.

This country has been slowly sliding down a hill since Ronald Reagan; Trump just set the hill on fire and added in a contagious pandemic. NONE of the multiple democratic candidates would have been able to stop the slide in four or even eight years.

We have a lot of maintenance work and emergency triage to do before we can even begin to try and start to schlep back up the hill.

And Biden is the perfect person for that job.

If my house is on fire and I have the choice of a boring fireman or an charming arsonist who swears he knows how to put out the fire because he started it, I’m going with the fireman.

What if you wanted to burn it down, but now don't really know if that's the right call? Is it better to let it keep burning or is it fine to have your house ruined anyway by boring firefighter, but maybe salvage something out of the smoldering wreckage?

^^^ undecideds can hold this position as well. 

[Gatorubet 30117]

He said that in 2008, right?  About John McCain- former and future GOP idol of the left, correct?  Yet when he was running for president he was the worst ever, blah blah blah in the most important election ever, blah blah blah. 
Since we hear that every 4 years and some people have a memory longer than the lifespan of a mayfly it’s why the disconnect exists for large swaths of America. 
commence the negging now. 

No. What you had in McCain was Palin a heartbeat away from the Presidency- a sort of Trump with bigger tits but equally stupid, dishonest and unqualified.

She was the canary in the coal mine for the slide of the GOP into open championing of anti-science and nativism. Fuck McCain for allowing that. But he was infinitely better than Trump or Palin, as he did love his country and picked country over self.

The disconnect you speak of is because large swaths can’t think critically and instead listen to State TV and hate radio, not because of exasperation at democratic attacks on political opponents. Negative ads have worked since the beginning of time. Which is why we see them used by both sides.

[jimmyjazz 45560]

News flash:  the United States often elects men to the Presidency who aren't the very best for the job.

As in, always.

Suddenly viewing Vanilla Joe as some sort of horrible choice is insanity.  He is so far from being equally as bad as Trump.  The idea that things can't get better, that our current course cannot be reversed, at least on some issues, is absolute foolishness.  But hey, both sides.

[immamac 42521]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

News flash:  the United States often elects men to the Presidency who aren't the very best for the job.

As in, always.

Suddenly viewing Vanilla Joe as some sort of horrible choice is insanity.  He is so far from being equally as bad as Trump.  The idea that things can't get better, that our current course cannot be reversed, at least on some issues, is absolute foolishness.  But hey, both sides.

What about someone who sees a 3rd or 4th path? They are now suddenly just braindead fools because they can't figure out which of these 2 which they hate equally gets them to their desired result faster?

[Bateshorn 9905]

I’ve said this elsewhere but There is quite a bit of political science research that indicates that undecided tend to break against the incumbent. And I would argue that Hilary was the incumbent on 2016.  
 

The problem for Trump is there just aren’t many undecided voters left.  To win in the same way he won in 2016 (which is the only way he can win via the electoral college), he needs virtually everyone of them.  Even if he gets 60%, he’s still probably going to lose.  If they break 2-1 for Biden, that’s how you end up with a landslide.

[jimmyjazz 45560]

5 minutes ago, immamac said:

What about someone who sees a 3rd or 4th path? They are now suddenly just braindead fools because they can't figure out which of these 2 which they hate equally gets them to their desired result faster?

I'm so not interested in pursuing this bullshit angle.  Donald Trump is THE biggest existential threat to our Democracy since the Civil War.  He's that bad.  That 3rd or 4th path crap is a pipe dream.  It is the metaphorical equivalent of expecting an oil tanker to maneuver like a Jet Ski.  It's utterly pointless at this juncture.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by jimmyjazz

[immamac 42521]

What about anything that I've indicated in other threads up to this point leads you to believe I don't share that belief with you @jimmyjazz? 

I'm saying it's not unfathomable or weird or mind bottling for people to remain undecided for sane reasons.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

What about someone who sees a 3rd or 4th path? They are now suddenly just braindead fools because they can't figure out which of these 2 which they hate equally gets them to their desired result faster?

What is the real reason for the hate for Joe Biden?  The guy is a good dude from everything I have ever seen.  You may disagree with his stances on some things or on everything but all in all he seems to try and do what’s best for America.  I have a problem with the “brain dead fools” that only watch Fox News and believe all of the propaganda being used against Biden right now.  They see Trump’s tweets along with Hannity and the rest of those bozos and believe Joe is a criminal, committed Treason, doesn’t believe in the 2nd amendment, isn’t religious, has dementia, etc...  Sorry but those things are not true.  In your original rant you mentioned a lot of things that do make sense.  I am for more regulations on corporations than Trump is doing.  Sorry, but many of those CEO’s will destroy the environment and poison US citizens to make an extra buck.  The ACA was gutted by Republicans from the get go so it never functioned correctly and Joe has stated the goal is to “update” the ACA to make it better.  

[Jive Turkey 12568]

2 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Trump, GOP, and Fox trying to make Hunter’s laptop the new Hillary’s emails. They’re going all in. 

 

[Wulaw Horn 18983]

4 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I’ve said this elsewhere but There is quite a bit of political science research that indicates that undecided tend to break against the incumbent. And I would argue that Hilary was the incumbent on 2016.  
 

The problem for Trump is there just aren’t many undecided voters left.  To win in the same way he won in 2016 (which is the only way he can win via the electoral college), he needs virtually everyone of them.  Even if he gets 60%, he’s still probably going to lose.  If they break 2-1 for Biden, that’s how you end up with a landslide.

Yes. Hillary was definitely the incumbent. And yeah- the few undecideds will likely break Joe. 

[immamac 42521]

2 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

What is the real reason for the hate for Joe Biden?  The guy is a good dude from everything I have ever seen.  You may disagree with his stances on some things or on everything but all in all he seems to try and do what’s best for America.  I have a problem with the “brain dead fools” that only watch Fox News and believe all of the propaganda being used against Biden right now.  They see Trump’s tweets along with Hannity and the rest of those bozos and believe Joe is a criminal, committed Treason, doesn’t believe in the 2nd amendment, isn’t religious, has dementia, etc...  Sorry but those things are not true.  In your original rant you mentioned a lot of things that do make sense.  I am for more regulations on corporations than Trump is doing.  Sorry, but many of those CEO’s will destroy the environment and poison US citizens to make an extra buck.  The ACA was gutted by Republicans from the get go so it never functioned correctly and Joe has stated the goal is to “update” the ACA to make it better.  

Don't hate Joe. Easy to see why someone would though.

[Bateshorn 9905]

13 minutes ago, immamac said:

What about someone who sees a 3rd or 4th path? They are now suddenly just braindead fools because they can't figure out which of these 2 which they hate equally gets them to their desired result faster?

3rd or 4th choice?  The fuck?  Dude, the ship is sinking. Stop the flooding, get the power on. Then we can have a conversation about how we set the sails and where we are going.  Biden is plugging the leak and getting the back up power on.

Sure, there are undecideds who don’t like Democrats, but hate Trump.  I fully expect those voters to take their wrath out on the Democrats in 2022, no matter what is happening.  But if you are looking at the two men, and thinking, I hate all my choices, so 4 more years of Trump seEms right, then you are kind of an awful person. (I don’t mean you personally)

Edited October 18, 2020 by Bateshorn

[jimmyjazz 45560]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

What about anything that I've indicated in other threads up to this point leads you to believe I don't share that belief with you @jimmyjazz? 

I'm saying it's not unfathomable or weird or mind bottling for people to remain undecided for sane reasons.

It's not unfathomable or weird or mind bottling for people to be stupid, I agree.  I don't think their perspective needs to be entertained with any seriousness whatsoever.

[Gatorubet 30117]

Like what the fuck just because someone doesn't think like you and is educated doesn't mean they aren't a critical thinker. Stop painting undecideds as braindead non functioning blobs of society.

I wasn’t talking about undecideds. I was talking more about the army of Trumpers who believe everything he says, who do not have the tools to know how they are being manipulated.

Feel free to provide your explanation of the stark educational demographic differences between the two camps and why it means nothing in the number of good people being grifted into ragey haters unable to see the obvious grift.

[Wulaw Horn 18983]

Just now, immamac said:

Don't hate Joe. Easy to see why someone would though.

Hate anyone that’s a politician?  Bc there’s nothing about Joe that doesn’t apply to all of them that I can see. 

[jimmyjazz 45560]

This whole Hunter Biden angle is so ridiculously transparent.  If it sways one voter then that voter was going to vote Trump, regardless.

But kudos to the Republicans for once again trying to weave a pedophelia angle into the narrative.  Reminder:  Donald Trump was very close friends with Jeffrey Epstein and has been accused of raping multiple teenage girls.

[immamac 42521]

god damnit with these takes no wonder you goons don't understand devils advocate. 

goon¹

/ɡo͞on/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

INFORMAL

plural noun: goons

1. 1.

   a silly, foolish, or eccentric person.

    
2. 2.

   NORTH AMERICAN

   a bully or thug, especially one hired to terrorize or do away with opposition.

   "a squad of goons waving pistols"

In Plain English for the army of pitchforkers. I voted for Biden. Just because you voted for Trump doesn't make you a braindead piece of shit. Just because you are undecided doesn't make you a braindead piece of shit.