2020 Presidential Election -- Biden v Trump: Sleepy Joe vs Dopey Don [Results begin on page 409]

[Js1 85,602]

53 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Next person to voice an opinion like this is going to be viciously slandered. I mean it. I'll say some real mean shit about your mom.

They're not dead. Conservatism as a political force doesn't die anywhere, ever (well, maybe with the exception of early USSR). It's certainly not going to be killed by Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi.

Right now they're laying the groundwork for a "stab in the back" conspiracy. If we think they're dead and ignore the threat they pose, they'll take the house in 2022 on the back of their refreshed gerrymanders and economic sabotage. They'll have new young-gun "stars" that the media can't help but fawn over, but this time instead of Paul Ryan and Eric Cantor it'll be an actual nazi and a QAnon freak. And then the real awful times will begin.

Democrats may have failed to take or make gains in states for redistricting purposes, but since 2010: 

• Dems have veto power in Louisiana thanks to a Dem governor
• Dems have veto power in Wisconsin thanks to a Dem governor (and stopped a supermajority, so no veto)
• Dems have veto power in Kentucky thanks to a Dem governor
• Dems have veto power in PA thanks to a Dem governor and a Dem-controlled Supreme Court -- heavily gerrymandered state
• Michigan, Virginia, California, Colorado, Arizona and Montana (if they get a 2nd seat) have commissions to draw lines
• Dems also have the NC Supreme Court majority to throw out bad maps -- heavily gerrymandered state
• Democrats have full control in OR, NV, NM, IL, NY (funny enough, IL has no law about continguous districts, so it's possible to draw an 18-0 map in the state)

Really we only got fucked in FL, Georgia, Texas, Iowa, Ohio and Kansas.  But we don't know how fucked until the census is finished being tallied and they reapportion seats. 

[gmr548 16,617]

I'm sure they are Republican's as well.
 

Republican’s what?

[Rimbo 26,140]

17 hours ago, UncleSonny said:

That's a Republican Sec of State accusing a sitting US Senior in his own party of pressuring him into throwing out legal votes. Aside from it being a crime, he is describing a cut and dry attack on democracy. And absolutely nothing will come of it. There will be no investigation, Lindsey won't lose his seat, he won't be removed from any of his cushy committee positions. The story will be forgotten by inauguration. 

Brisket is 100% correct. We are the frog and the water has been brought to a boil and now it's too late. 

You're forgetting the other half of "nothing will come of it:"

The votes weren't thrown out.

[SubliminalHorn 6,811]

8 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Republican’s what?

assholes

[bad_teammate 13,225]

Destroying our own base to own Trump

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Destroying our own base to own Trump

 

Haha you aren’t going to be a popular guy with headlines like that, my friend. You are radical candor personified though, I’ll give you that.

[Pato del Muerto 52,617]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Haha you aren’t going to be a popular guy with headlines like that, my friend. You are radical candor personified though, I’ll give you that.

Not a good teammate. If only we had a warning sign!

Edited November 17, 2020 by Pato del Muerto

[Francisco 2.0 32,431]

 

 

[UncleSonny 6,573]

12 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

You're forgetting the other half of "nothing will come of it:"

The votes weren't thrown out.

USA! USA! We did it!

Governor Whitmer also wasn’t kidnapped and murdered so are we all good there too? Whether an elected official was successful in his attempted illegal election interference has fuck all to do with whether we should be concerned with the complete normalization of that interference. 

[David Dennison 18,951]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Destroying our own base to own Trump

 

Democrats are the new Republicans.

[BurntOrange&White 40,045]

18 hours ago, lemonlime said:

 

Can senators be impeached?

[Red Five 40,898]

Strange that Lindsey is poking around in Georgia, Nevada, and Arizona. And not states like North Carolina, Ohio, and Florida. I wonder why that is. 

[David Dennison 18,951]

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Can senators be impeached?

Yes.

[smuggs 9,353]

8 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Strange that Lindsey is poking around in Georgia, Nevada, and Arizona. And not states like North Carolina, Ohio, and Florida. I wonder why that is. 

To be fair Lindsey pokes around a lot of places.

[Rimbo 26,140]

15 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

USA! USA! We did it!

Governor Whitmer also wasn’t kidnapped and murdered so are we all good there too? Whether an elected official was successful in his attempted illegal election interference has fuck all to do with whether we should be concerned with the complete normalization of that interference. 

OK, so, there is one minor but very significant difference here.

In the Governor Whitmer case, there was an attempt. In this case, he simply asked, and was told, "No." Nobody tried to throw out votes.

Edit: Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't exactly be all teary-eyed if Lindsey suddenly up and decided to leave his Senate seat to join the circus as a clown (and would anyone notice a difference?), but it's like if SydneyCarton were to ask me if he could suck my dick and I said, "No thank you." Since no dick-sucking was attempted, you couldn't really call him a cocksucker.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Rimbo

[Bateshorn 9,942]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yes.

Only by the Senate itself.

[NWBuck 8,587]

1 minute ago, smuggs said:

To be fair Lindsey pokes around a lot of places.

Always seemed to be more of a poke-ee than a poke-er.

[Rimbo 26,140]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Only by the Senate itself.

[gmr548 16,617]

Destroying our own base to own Trump
 

I haven’t read the article so I don’t know the underlying numbers, but a decline in black share of the of the electorate does not a decline in black turnout or black support. Remember, Trump added millions of voters. Turnout was up in rural white areas too.

I do fundamentally agree that the coalition that won for Biden is not long for this world. Something has to give there.

[UncleSonny 6,573]

4 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

OK, so, there is one minor but very significant difference here.

In the Governor Whitmer case, there was an attempt. In this case, he simply asked, and was told, "No." Nobody tried to throw out votes.

Edit: Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't exactly be all teary-eyed if Lindsey suddenly up and decided to leave his Senate seat to join the circus as a clown (and would anyone notice a difference?), but it's like if SydneyCarton were to ask me if he could suck my dick and I said, "No thank you." Since no dick-sucking was attempted, you couldn't really call him a cocksucker.

I think you are being a little obtuse, the “simply asking” is the attempt. He doesn’t need to buy ammo and zip ties for this specific crime. He’s a Senator of a different state using his position of power to put pressure on someone to illegally influence the election. 

This should be a big deal and you brushing it off because Georgia Sec of State happened to not go for it is my point. This stuff shouldn’t be normalized but now it is.  

[washparkhorn 9,939]

14 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

but it's like if SydneyCarton were to ask me if he could suck my dick and I said, "No thank you." Since no dick-sucking was attempted, you couldn't really call him a cocksucker.

!⃝ 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗰𝗹𝗮𝗶𝗺 𝗶𝘀 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗽𝘂𝘁𝗲𝗱

[David Dennison 18,951]

11 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Only by the Senate itself.

The House impeached Senator William Blount in 1797. The Senate removed him based on its own rules pursuant to Article I, Section 5 and passed a resolution saying the House had no jurisdiction. The House has not impeached a Senator since then. Whether they have the power to do so is still an open question.

[Rimbo 26,140]

7 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

I think you are being a little obtuse, the “simply asking” is the attempt. He doesn’t need to buy ammo and zip ties for this specific crime. He’s a Senator of a different state using his position of power to put pressure on someone to illegally influence the election. 

This should be a big deal and you brushing it off because Georgia Sec of State happened to not go for it is my point. This stuff shouldn’t be normalized but now it is.  

Oh good Lord, the irony in your first sentence. This isn't even remotely equivalent to "ammo and zip ties." And I'm not saying you should brush it off.

What I'm saying is stop with the breathless hyperventilating exaggerations of what actually occurred.

Look, here is what was actually reported in the Washington Post:

Quote

In their conversation, Graham questioned Raffensperger about the state's signature-matching law and whether political bias could have prompted poll workers to accept ballots with nonmatching signatures, according to Raffensperger. Graham also asked whether Raffensperger had the power to toss all mail ballots in counties found to have higher rates of nonmatching signatures, Raffensperger said.

Raffensperger said he was stunned that Graham appeared to suggest that he find a way to toss legally cast ballots. Absent court intervention, Raffensperger doesn't have the power to do what Graham suggested because counties administer elections in Georgia.

Lindsey Graham was asking for ways to find ballots that could have been in some way determined to be illegal and thus able to be thrown out. Now, there's no question about what he was attempting to ask, and Raffensperger's frustration -- with his own party -- is understandable.

But no crime was committed here. You couldn't even get Graham indicted with this, much less convicted. Not if -- as we would hope -- the justice system is working the way it's supposed to.

Y'all need to chill the fuck out. We got this.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Rimbo

[Pig Bellmont 8,739]

2 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Oh good Lord, the irony in your first sentence. This isn't even remotely equivalent to "ammo and zip ties." And I'm not saying you should brush it off.

What I'm saying is stop with the breathless hyperventilating exaggerations of what actually occurred.

Look, here is what was actually reported in the Washington Post:

Lindsey Graham was asking for ways to find ballots that could have been in some way determined to be illegal and thus able to be thrown out. Now, there's no question about what he was attempting to ask, and Raffensperger's frustration -- with his own party -- is understandable.

But no crime was committed here. You couldn't even get Graham indicted with this, much less convicted. Not if -- as we would hope -- the justice system is working the way it's supposed to.

Y'all need to chill the fuck out. We got this.

I don’t know, man. The call is coercive. He’s not Joe Blow, he’s the chair of the senate judiciary committee. “Any ballots you can disqualify?” He called multiple times. 
For perspective:

GOP would be making this worse than Benghazi. 

[kevwun 15,928]

It's a damn shame the Georgia SoS didn't record those calls.

[lemonlime 5,503]

3 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t know, man. The call is coercive. He’s not Joe Blow, he’s the chair of the senate judiciary committee. “Any ballots you can disqualify?” He called multiple times. 
For perspective:

GOP would be making this worse than Benghazi. 

And it would be worse than Benghazi.

[UncleSonny 6,573]

3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Oh good Lord, the irony in your first sentence. This isn't even remotely equivalent to "ammo and zip ties."

My point is depending on the situation, “simply asking” for something can absolutely be a crime.  Ammo and zip ties was me being a dick, but you saying it can’t be a crime because all he was doing was making a request is not true. 

 

7 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

But no crime was committed here. You couldn't even get Graham indicted with this, much less convicted. Not if -- as we would hope -- the justice system is working the way it's supposed to.

You don’t know this and honestly neither do I. The point is there are enough red flags here to trigger an investigation and maybe move forward with a prosecution if warranted by the investigation. My guess is none of that will happen so no, the justice system is not working like it’s supposed to. 

[bad_teammate 13,225]

23 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

I haven’t read the article so I don’t know the underlying numbers, but a decline in black share of the of the electorate does not a decline in black turnout or black support.

A lack of relative growth is an effective loss. Just ask your wages versus the cost of goods.

White turnout boomed because white people are basically the only people who were catered to. The Democrats got what they wanted, the white suburbs. Meanwhile, they're letting their actual base fall apart. As always, the Democrats took blacks for granted.

Quote

I do fundamentally agree that the coalition that won for Biden is not long for this world. Something has to give there.

Biden essentially set the Democratic Party back a couple of cycles in order to secure what will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory because the coalition that put him in hated Trump but is institutionally Republican.

[TwiceHorn 31,560]

On 11/16/2020 at 12:41 AM, Bama Chick said:

I am so thrilled tonight!

I spoke with my mom and asked her how my dad was taking the election.

She said after every network declared Biden the winner, he turned off Fox News and said “Well, glad that’s over. Trump needs to be a gentleman and concede. Biden will be okay, thank goodness it isn’t Hillary.”

And this man, who has mainlined Fox News for four years HASN’T TURNED IT ON AT ALL THIS WHOLE WEEK!!!

My mom helped him discover he could watch recent college football games on PPV and rewatch classic sports on different ESPN channels. He had no idea those things existed and he’s been like a giddy kid watching old school games.

He told her that he’s tired of watching news all the time - he thinks it just made him angry. He’s decided to just watch an hour of - GASP - CNN with his coffee to catch the headlines and then no more news for the day. He said he’s been happier since he cut out the 24-7 news watching.

He wants her to show him how to work other stuff like Netflix and Hulu.

I cried when she told me “I feel like my husband is returning to normal.”

Things may still be awful and crazy on a macro level but I feel like a heavy, sad weight has been lifted off me.

Happy for you and your family.  Hopefully this scenario repeats in a lot of households.  I'm not naive enough to believe it would be a majority of Trumpers, but some at least.

My FIL hasn't said a word about the election.  They went out of town last week, maybe to escape the election stuff, I don't know.

The one political thing he's said is that drugs ought to be priced by a "most favored nation" provision.  Which is not an absurd thought, but as a Hungarian native, he buys the SoCIAlsM narrative hard.  And price controls are pretty socialist.  He also resents CEO pay and thinks it should be restricted to a multiple of the lowest-paid worker.  Which is very socialist.

I have been resisting emailing him a gritty meme of some sort.

[BradInATX 9,208]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A lack of relative growth is an effective loss. Just ask your wages versus the cost of goods.

White turnout boomed because white people are basically the only people who were catered to. The Democrats got what they wanted, the white suburbs. Meanwhile, they're letting their actual base fall apart. As always, the Democrats took blacks for granted.

Biden essentially set the Democratic Party back a couple of cycles in order to secure what will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory because the coalition that put him in hated Trump but is institutionally Republican.

 

It's an effective loss if the turnout remains at 70% or whatever it was. I'm not sure that it will.

2024 is going to be an interesting harbinger of the future. If the Republicans nominate someone more sane and moderate, you'll probably see the Lincoln Republicans go back, and then the Democrats are going to have to crawl back to their traditional base, hat in hand. Who knows how well that will work.

[TwiceHorn 31,560]

11 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

You have me confused with someone else. In national elections I was eligible to vote in I voted bush 41, Clinton, none, W, none, Obama, none (there’s a pattern of disillusionment w incumbents and republican challengers being shit), Johnson (for real tho) and Biden. When I was younger I would vote more down ballot republican, but since 2008 more dem. 2020 was a straight dem and I honestly can’t see voting for another republican in my lifetime.  Some of that is me moving a bit left as I get older but mostly the republicans just lost their damn minds. 

I agree progressives want nice things. I do too. But I also don’t want to go broke as a nation trying to provide these nice things. My hope is that if moderates can somehow get control of things that not going broke will start to matter again. But if they can’t get control I’d rather go broke paying for things that directly benefit people rather than keeping corporations on the dole. 

Pretty similar. 

Also, we don't want nice things that are only nice in the short term and have pretty undesirable long-term consequences.   See, e.g. student loans; and post-war subsidized housing.

Edited November 17, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[wildcat09 29,421]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

It's an effective loss if the turnout remains at 70% or whatever it was. I'm not sure that it will.

2024 is going to be an interesting harbinger of the future. If the Republicans nominate someone more sane and moderate, you'll probably see the Lincoln Republicans go back, and then the Democrats are going to have to crawl back to their traditional base, hat in hand. Who knows how well that will work.

All life on earth being wiped out within the next four years by a gigantic meteor is more likely.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

All life on earth being wiped out within the next four years by a gigantic meteor is more likely.

Almost by default, anyone you nominate will be more sane and moderate than ole Donny J Trump.

[landman 559]

3 hours ago, Js1 said:

I’m sure you read it on Parler 

Actually it was the further to the right San Francisco Chronicle.

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

30 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A lack of relative growth is an effective loss. Just ask your wages versus the cost of goods.

White turnout boomed because white people are basically the only people who were catered to. The Democrats got what they wanted, the white suburbs. Meanwhile, they're letting their actual base fall apart. As always, the Democrats took blacks for granted.

Biden essentially set the Democratic Party back a couple of cycles in order to secure what will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory because the coalition that put him in hated Trump but is institutionally Republican.

As opposed to gaining more black votes yet losing what would have been the last fair election in US history? 
 

I’ll take that trade off for now. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by JimmyJames

[Rimbo 26,140]

27 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

My point is depending on the situation, “simply asking” for something can absolutely be a crime.  Ammo and zip ties was me being a dick, but you saying it can’t be a crime because all he was doing was making a request is not true. 

"Simply asking" can be a crime for some things. It's not a crime to ask what Lindsey Graham actually asked him to do (do you even know what Lindsey Graham actually asked him to do?), as much as you or I might want it to be.

Quote

You don’t know this and honestly neither do I.

Well, you're half right.

Quote

The point is there are enough red flags here to trigger an investigation and maybe move forward with a prosecution if warranted by the investigation. 

No. There isn't. There aren't even yellow flags. Just one extremely tired Georgia GOP official getting badgered by a bunch of terrified losers. Go read the original sources on this and not someone's fan fiction blog account of what they think might have happened.

My God; some of y'all are as bad about separating fiction from reality as the "B1DEN STOLZ AR VICTORY" dipshits.

32 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

He called multiple times. 

Source?

[bad_teammate 13,225]

Not sure what the logical fallacy is that involves people thinking, "Since it happened this way then this is the only way it could have happened", but it's a deadly fallacy filling liberal/Democratic minds right now. False choice fallacy at play at the very least.

Also, there's no "for now". The 2020 election is over.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4,804]

6 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

 

Source?

See below

WSJ

Quote

Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger said fellow Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham suggested he throw out certain legal ballots during the recount of the presidential race, an allegation that Mr. Graham denied.

Mr. Raffensperger said in an interview Monday that Mr. Graham of South Carolina asked if absentee ballots could be disqualified from counties with higher rates of signature errors.

“He just took it in a direction that I didn’t expect it to go,” Mr. Raffensperger told the Wall Street Journal.

Mr. Raffensperger said that when he was contacted by Mr. Graham Friday, he thought the senator was calling about the state’s two senate races. After an initial conversation, Mr. Graham called back again and brought up the idea of invalidating absentee ballots from counties with higher rates of signature errors, Mr. Raffensperger said, adding that he had staffers with him on that call.

Mr. Raffensperger and his staffers agreed not to act on any of Mr. Graham’s suggestions, he said. “We have laws in place,” he said.

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Not sure what the logical fallacy is that involves people thinking, "Since it happened this way then this is the only way it could have happened", but it's a deadly fallacy filling liberal/Democratic minds right now. False choice fallacy at play at the very least.

Also, there's no "for now". The 2020 election is over.

I’ll just go ahead and assume this is directed at me. 
 

Of course it’s not the only way it could have happened. But it was by far the safest. And given the catastrophic consequences of failure, not to mention the indisputable and verifiable fact that Biden actually won, was in fact the correct one. 

[Rimbo 26,140]

2 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

See below

WSJ

 

So basically, twice. I guess that fits the technical definition of "multiple."

[bad_teammate 13,225]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

But it was by far the safest.

This is completely illogical.

 

[lemonlime 5,503]

49 minutes ago, kevwun said:

It's a damn shame the Georgia SoS didn't record those calls.

There is corroboration:

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

This is completely illogical.

 

Pray tell doctor Spock 

[bad_teammate 13,225]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Pray tell doctor Spock 

You can't know it was the safest. That is illogical.

It's just the one that happened and worked.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

You can't know it was the safest. That is illogical.

It's just the one that happened and worked.

Ok fine. You are right and we never will know. But it did work and that’s good enough for me. For now. 

[tantric superman 4,668]

41 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Biden essentially set the Democratic Party back a couple of cycles in order to secure what will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory because the coalition that put him in hated Trump but is institutionally Republican.

This reads correctly but the key is that there is an argument that the strongest Democratic Party is institutionally Republican right now.  The Dem Party can change it's stripes, but it has to focus on economically progressive ideas and has to stop being pulled into culture wars so that it can win back some in the lower economic stratas.  I think Biden sets them back if he doesn't start this movement by focusing on healthcare, the environment and some transfer of wealth.  If he allows those who want rapid changes in law enforcement and reparations to push him around, then the Dems really do get knocked a few cycles back. 

[bad_teammate 13,225]

4 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

For now. 

What does that mean at this point?

No one here is disputing the result of the election, so what is your actual point? Like, what was your motivation to hop in?

3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I think Biden sets them back if he doesn't start this movement by focusing on healthcare, the environment and some transfer of wealth.  If he allows those who want rapid changes in law enforcement and reparations to push him around, then the Dems really do get knocked a few cycles back. 

Yeah.

The Biden sales pitch to progressives was, "Hey he's not great now but he's going to move left after the election. So be quiet, let him get elected, and THEN you can yell and scream and push."

But we're already seeing that the second sentence was a lie (like we knew it was the whole time). So right now we're going to have to count on Joe Biden, a conservative Democrat for 50 years, bucking the already-left-punching establishment and pushing for progressive policy.

So... lol

Edited November 17, 2020 by bad_teammate

[JimmyJames 12,271]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What does that mean at this point?

No one here is disputing the result of the election, so what is your actual point? Like, what was your motivation to hop in?

Yeah.

The Biden sales pitch to non-Republicans was, "Hey he's not great now but he's going to move left after the election. So be quiet, let him get elected, and THEN you can yell and scream and push."

But we're already seeing that the second sentence was a lie (like we knew it was the whole time). So right now we're going to have to count on Joe Biden, a conservative Democrat for 50 years, bucking the already-left-punching establishment and pushing for progressive policy.

So... lol

My point was was this, that whatever to defeat trump had to be done at any cost.

What I’m trying to say is that I might actually agree with what your saying but because of trump “for now”  I don’t care. 
 

The “for now” is actually on your side. But if you want to continue to rail against that,  by all means go ahead. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by JimmyJames

[UncleSonny 6,573]

16 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

So basically, twice. I guess that fits the technical definition of "multiple."

So very sorry for calling you obtuse earlier. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Beyond Trump, there is a growing fascist movement in the United States with actual political power now.  Biden doesn’t seem to understand this and that’s what concerns me. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz