2020 Presidential Election -- Biden v Trump: Sleepy Joe vs Dopey Don [Results begin on page 409]

[Brisketexan 104612]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

Definitely responsible since it came with a coyote proof spiral staircase 

[conVINCEd 21468]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

On some level it has to depend on results, right?  If it's a massive loss that should be a disqualifier. If it's a massive loss and the GOP is still the party of Trump in 2024 and it's a massive loss then you'd have enough data points to think they'd get the point.  Also, is Trump in jail? Dead?  lots of shit can happen but that's certainly the ugliest timeline. 

He could die in jail.

[The Dog 43804]

4 minutes ago, Horndog said:

Let's assume Trump loses this year - a reasonable assumption based on current polling.  Does he run again in 2024

Maybe as an independent. If he loses then he's a lame duck who no longer has any pull, and the Republicans will no longer have to cater to him. The knives will come out. 

[thepop 4409]

Should note that their polls have been very D friendly and likely an outlier.

 

[LurkingHorn 1044]

7 minutes ago, Horndog said:

Let's assume Trump loses this year - a reasonable assumption based on current polling.  Does he run again in 2024?  If not, does Don Jr. or Ivanka?  A defeated Trump will be the most annoying ex-President ever and will do anything possible to garner attention.  The Trump base (as a subgroup of the GOP base) is not going away, and will coalesce around whatever incarnation of Trump is the current flavor of the week. 

The Trump base is about to start dying off at a very rapid rate. This is their last hurrah. They will be around but not nearly in these numbers. 

[Ghost of LL 15492]

13 minutes ago, Horndog said:

Let's assume Trump loses this year - a reasonable assumption based on current polling.  Does he run again in 2024?  If not, does Don Jr. or Ivanka?  A defeated Trump will be the most annoying ex-President ever and will do anything possible to garner attention.  The Trump base (as a subgroup of the GOP base) is not going away, and will coalesce around whatever incarnation of Trump is the current flavor of the week. 

Trump will definitely run, and he will definitely win the nomination.

I don't know what you have seen from his psychopathy that makes you think he can forego the adulation of running for president again.  His campaign will literally start on January 21, 2021.

4 minutes ago, thepop said:

Should note that their polls have been very D friendly and likely an outlier.

 

Outlier, blah, blah, blah, blah.  But SurveyUSA (A-rated by 538) has Biden up 2 in a Georgia poll out today.

I think it is pretty damned clear that Biden has a very real chance to win Georgia.

[Hawndoh 2382]

I doubt he would run again. I think he will want to get back on TV, with his own network.

[Snake Diggity 4614]

1 minute ago, Hawndoh said:

I doubt he would run again. I think he will want to get back on TV, with his own network.

Trump will be 78 in 4 years.  No way he runs.  50/50 whether he’s even alive.

[SydneyCarton 47879]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I apologize, when I hear folks claim to be fiscally conservative, it triggers something in my brain that leads me to believe they’re deficit hawks and prioritize money over the general well-being of society.  That’s on me.  I guess I’ve heard too many libertarian/GOP politicians win elections with the “I’m a fiscal conservative” talking point which I interpret as, “I will reject any new spending the democrats want to do.”  

It’s the “but how are you going to pay for it?!?” people. The folks that refuse to entertain ideas that ultimately reduce costs because they have an intimidating up front price tag.  They see government spending as a liability to be squashed instead of potential investment to ultimately improve the quality of life across society. 

Again my bad but you don’t have to be a dick about it. 

This is still Surly, right?

[Storm the Field 5273]

9 minutes ago, thepop said:

Should note that their polls have been very D friendly and likely an outlier.

 

Yeah, Quinnipiac has seemingly become the Yin to Trafalgar's Yang this cycle. They're consistently ~5 points better for Biden than polling averages. I can buy Biden ahead by 1 or 2 in GA. 7 is bordering on absurd.

I have a feeling they won't come out of the 2020 cycle looking too great.

[cactusflinthead 27594]

28 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I agree with this.  The people who would ordinarily guide the GOP back have all left.  They're now either Democrats or independents.  

I don't know what it is going to take for the GOP to get cleaned of Thurmond and Atwater. Trump is the culmination of years of work. The base has been fed lies for so long that they dismiss basic facts and norms. 

Trump's biggest demo are men 45-65. That's my demo. I have to figure that a bunch of us are still going to be alive in 24. I don't see any movement away from hating on gays, or any of the others that have been set up as bogeymen. 

Fox News, OAN, Sinclair, and Breitbart aren't going to evaporate or suddenly get woke. 

I don't know what it is going to take for the base, ie our friends, family, and neighbors to abandon what gave us Trump. I doubt that a bloodbath in this election is going to do it. 

[Brisketexan 104612]

4 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I don't know what it is going to take for the GOP to get cleaned of Thurmond and Atwater. Trump is the culmination of years of work. The base has been fed lies for so long that they dismiss basic facts and norms. 

Trump's biggest demo are men 45-65. That's my demo. I have to figure that a bunch of us are still going to be alive in 24. I don't see any movement away from hating on gays, or any of the others that have been set up as bogeymen. 

Fox News, OAN, Sinclair, and Breitbart aren't going to evaporate or suddenly get woke. 

I don't know what it is going to take for the base, ie our friends, family, and neighbors to abandon what gave us Trump. I doubt that a bloodbath in this election is going to do it. 

It's not.  Again, once you understand that 1) the GOP base has more in common with a cult than it does any political movement of philosophy, and 2) the GOP has allowed that base to "purity-test" out anyone who does not swear loyalty to their one true orange god, then you realize that there is no good end to this story.  Not for the GOP, and not for America.

[SydneyCarton 47879]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This is where you and I disagree. I think you are just dead wrong- and I'd point to how little discretionary money we have to spend. I think this is wishful thinking.  Like- give me ice cream for desert b/c it burns calories and gives me abs.  

I'd support a platform of finding out if this is true or not- but you'd literally have to wipe the board clear on all your entitlements to have the chance to do anything.  And maybe we should do that in a sane world- zero base budget and flush it and start over every year.  But something tells me that would be so incredibly painful and destructive while we tried to figure it out to the least among us that it's just totally and completely something that couldn't even be tried even if we were all in agreement (and we aren't) that we should try such an approach.  

Yeah, we've had this dance before. 

Change the fucking tax code, eliminate the absurd loopholes, force major corporations to pay their fair share, AND get rid of wasteful spending. And you're talking about a fuckload more money. Bill Clinton wrestled our debt to a standstill in a similar climate. We add fix all the bullshit exist for corporations and the rich and get more efficient and find the money. We found it for a massively stupid tax cut. 

Give people more real jobs and more real money and taxation and quality of life will also improve. There's about a million books and papers out on where to start. You just shake you head and say "Nope, not real."

[UncleSonny 6557]

Just want to say the last few pages have been some of the most nuanced and interesting political discussion I've seen in a long time, too much good shit quote but reps all around. Who would have thought it would come from a Longhorn message board filled with assholes. 

I think Hugo's original point about social liberal/fiscal conservatism was a good one based on what fiscal conservatism means in 2020. I'd be 100% on-board with every policy Sydney suggested but I would never label myself a fiscal conservative based on those views. That's just not what that term means anymore, it's been highjacked by Paul Ryan and countless other Ayn Rand dipshits. If Sydney ran for office on a platform of blow up the tax code, make companies pay more, and let the US government take a stake in companies when they're leveraging our systems is there any universe where he could run as a fiscally conservative candidate? 

Nuance is important and "your-team" partisan divides have probably done incalculable damage to this country but the horse is out of the barn. You can hold on to whatever label you want for yourself but at some point you might have to choose between being right and being understood.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by UncleSonny

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not.  Again, once you understand that 1) the GOP base has more in common with a cult than it does any political movement of philosophy, and 2) the GOP has allowed that base to "purity-test" out anyone who does not swear loyalty to their one true orange god, then you realize that there is no good end to this story.  Not for the GOP, and not for America.

The Trump folks are literally trying to start and lose another civil war.  It’s going to be a challenge to prevent them succeeding in catastrophic failure. 

ETA: When I say Trump people, I mean the folks Trump is talking to when he says “stand back and stand by” and all the Republicans in office that tolerate that shit. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[SydneyCarton 47879]

14 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

Just want to say the last few pages have been some of the most nuanced and interesting political discussion I've seen in a long time, too much good shit quote but reps all around. Who would have thought it would come from a Longhorn message board filled with assholes. 

I think Hugo's original point about social liberal/fiscal conservatism was a good one based on what fiscal conservatism means in 2020. I'd be 100% on-board with every policy Sydney suggested but I would never label myself a fiscal conservative based on those views. That's just not what that term means anymore, it's been highjacked by Paul Ryan and countless other Ayn Rand dipshits. If Sydney ran for office on a platform of blow up the tax code, make companies pay more, and let the US government take a stake in companies when they're leveraging our systems is there any universe where he could run as a fiscally conservative candidate? 

Nuance is important and "your-team" partisan divides have probably done incalculable damage to this country but the horse is out of the barn. You can hold on to whatever label you want for yourself but at some point you might have to choose between being right and being understood.

 

 

What you're failing to take into account is that I'm a tremendous public speaker. You don't run on a platform of "Lets blow up the tax code." You run on a platform of "Taking Back Fiscal Conservatism." And then you start talking and you explain. Although I do understand your point and it's not without merit, if we are to go back to the very beginning of this conversation, I suppose the break is obviously "What does fiscal conservatism mean to you" and the obvious differences of opinion here. Of which you've seen many. 

Much like the American flag currently being a fucking prop of the GOP, I don't give a fuck what they hijacked. The problem is when smart people don't take it the fuck back. As another poster said in the last few pages, take away the D or R next to a name, and suddenly people become a lot fucking less crazy. They're willing to listen. You know who doesn't wake up and say to themselves "You know what, we really need to make sure that corporations can continue to dodge their taxes?" Anyone. Any average citizen. No one except politicians and lobbyists. 

So my point to you is that I can make people understand. I can win arguments. I can be persuasive. And so can many others, many much much better and smarter than me, by a damn sight. But you're right, it's about getting out of the partisan bullshit divide. No clue if that's possible. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Bevo in VA 342]

40 minutes ago, thepop said:

Should note that their polls have been very D friendly and likely an outlier.

 

Looks like this poll was enough to move the needle on 538 to 51-49 Biden.

[Brisketexan 104612]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

Much like the American flag currently being a fucking prop of the GOP, I don't give a fuck what they hijacked. The problem is when smart people don't take it the fuck back.

Just grabbing this one point -- and thanks for bringing it up.

My wife and I have already discussed this.  We haven't flown our flag in four years.  If we take back the White House for the people, I'll have it flying from our house at dawn the next day.  And yes, we need to reclaim it.  It needs to show up at our marches and demonstrations.  It needs to show up when we show up.  Because it's OUR country.  And that flag can and should stand for something different and better than the fuckstick Trumpers have claimed it for.  Dems need to reclaim the flag, and they need to reclaim patriotism (not nationalism, but patriotism).  We love our country so much that we're willing to do whatever we can to point it in the right direction; to make it an America for ALL Americans.  That's the essence of true patriotism.  Fuck the Trumpers for claiming a country that belongs to all of us as just theirs.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

I had a good conversation about American exceptionalism and the flag with my Fox News watching grandmother.  I got her to concede that the flag is only as good as the society that waves it. This was a pretty big win for me. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

48 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

He could die in jail.

As a clarifier I don't mean trump going to jail or dying is the ugliest timeline- I mean him being around and running in 2024 is the ugliest timeline. I don't think I root for anyone to die per se, but lets say if that happened with him I wouldn't go into a time of mourning or anything. If it's 78 year old Trump running against 82 year old Biden in 2024 though I will be pretty bummed. 

[conVINCEd 21468]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Just grabbing this one point -- and thanks for bringing it up.

My wife and I have already discussed this.  We haven't flown our flag in four years.  If we take back the White House for the people, I'll have it flying from our house at dawn the next day.  And yes, we need to reclaim it.  It needs to show up at our marches and demonstrations.  It needs to show up when we show up.  Because it's OUR country.  And that flag can and should stand for something different and better than the fuckstick Trumpers have claimed it for.  Dems need to reclaim the flag, and they need to reclaim patriotism (not nationalism, but patriotism).  We love our country so much that we're willing to do whatever we can to point it in the right direction; to make it an America for ALL Americans.  That's the essence of true patriotism.  Fuck the Trumpers for claiming a country that belongs to all of us as just theirs.

I’ve thought about flying mine upside down, but don’t really want to deal with the fuckery that might result from doing it.

[Huckleberry 32701]

Trump running as an independent in 2024 would be a wonderful result.

[Brisketexan 104612]

Just now, conVINCEd said:

I’ve thought about flying mine upside down, but don’t really want to deal with the fuckery that might result from doing it.

We've discussed that as well.  It's the only way we would have flown it, so we opted not to fly it at all.

[Beau Vine 54001]

1 hour ago, tigol said:

It surprised me, too, and I’ve lived in Wimberley for over 7 years. Then, a freaking “Trump Train” started rolling through my neighborhood every Sunday and “All Lives Matter” signs popped up. The Nextdoor messages are hateful.

However, I think it may be in response to younger families moving here and shifting the demographics. Some old folks are very scared and telling people to “move back to Austin.” I think they are the vocal minority at this point. May be wishful thinking.

This is my impression as well.  Lots of younger, Evangelical families moved in.  A couple of years ago, we were at a football game, and I looked around and pointed out to my wife that there was no one around us our age (early 50s).  Everyone was either 60s-retired or these well-groomed, well-dressed white families.  I thought some more about it and realized that 5 of our closest couple friends our age had already moved out of Wimberley.  

It was terrible to see how quickly it went from being a town where everyone helped out their neighbors to a place full of shitheels who won't even put on a mask for 10 minutes to go in HEB.  

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

47 minutes ago, thepop said:

Should note that their polls have been very D friendly and likely an outlier.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Trump will definitely run, and he will definitely win the nomination.

I don't know what you have seen from his psychopathy that makes you think he can forego the adulation of running for president again.  His campaign will literally start on January 21, 2021.

Outlier, blah, blah, blah, blah.  But SurveyUSA (A-rated by 538) has Biden up 2 in a Georgia poll out today.

I think it is pretty damned clear that Biden has a very real chance to win Georgia.

I think Q is basically garbage. I think I'd trust PPP more than them and that's an internal party run thing.  I also think that you have to have Biden as the favorite in Georgia- not as someone with a "very real chance to win Georgia" don't you? If it's a 6 or 8 point national race doesn't that put him likely up 1 or 2 in Georgia? 

[Pancho 44475]

Don't trust it.  Outlier. 

 

[Mo Horn 8807]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Just grabbing this one point -- and thanks for bringing it up.

My wife and I have already discussed this.  We haven't flown our flag in four years.  If we take back the White House for the people, I'll have it flying from our house at dawn the next day.  And yes, we need to reclaim it.  It needs to show up at our marches and demonstrations.  It needs to show up when we show up.  Because it's OUR country.  And that flag can and should stand for something different and better than the fuckstick Trumpers have claimed it for.  Dems need to reclaim the flag, and they need to reclaim patriotism (not nationalism, but patriotism).  We love our country so much that we're willing to do whatever we can to point it in the right direction; to make it an America for ALL Americans.  That's the essence of true patriotism.  Fuck the Trumpers for claiming a country that belongs to all of us as just theirs.

https://www.ricksteves.com/about-rick/the-american-flag-is-for-everybody

I'll just put this link here for those who may want to read it. Great article by Rick Steves regarding the flag. 

[Goredho 17348]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Focusing on this statement because it's important.  Sometimes, you need to steer in a particular direction for a course correction.

I try to keep my driving in a pretty straight line.  But if I drift over to the right, and get too close to the ditch, it would be stupid of me to say "but I don't want to turn my wheel left, I just want to go straight".....because continuing on a straight line puts me in the ditch.  I need to steer left a bit (and I need to turn the wheel farther left than I would on an ordinary travel course of being well within my lane), to get me back to where I need to be -- in a safe lane of travel.

We've lurched to an irrational and dangerous far-right trajectory -- so far right that it actually imperils our ability to continue to travel safely.  Time to course-correct like a motherfucker.

Yep, voting straight Dem in this election is a vote for the Republican party to reform itself so that it jettisons the white nationalism and reforms itself somewhere more towards the middle.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

32 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Yeah, we've had this dance before. 

Change the fucking tax code, eliminate the absurd loopholes, force major corporations to pay their fair share, AND get rid of wasteful spending. And you're talking about a fuckload more money. Bill Clinton wrestled our debt to a standstill in a similar climate. We add fix all the bullshit exist for corporations and the rich and get more efficient and find the money. We found it for a massively stupid tax cut. 

Give people more real jobs and more real money and taxation and quality of life will also improve. There's about a million books and papers out on where to start. You just shake you head and say "Nope, not real."

You see anyone running on a platform of that anywhere? And with even the remotest interest in making that happen?  My take is that I think you are wrong and wish in one hand shit in the other and see what fills up first, but if you can get together the coalition to make that happen I will certainly quietly cheer you on from afar to see how it works. It's worth trying. But it's completely fucking revolutionary and won't happen.  We would need to see it happen to see which of us is right and there really isn't any appetite to do any of what you want to see done- nor any stakeholders to pound on the table and make that happen.  

Back when the GOP was the party of ideas there were some in favor of flat tax or consumption tax as probably the only way of simplifying the tax code that would actually work (good luck getting rid of "loopholes" in todays tax code) and although I supported Forbes he had a ceiling of about 15% within the party and that was a DOA proposition with Dems.  You have about 10% of the population, tops, that wants that as a voting platform.  Because your wasteful spending is someone else's bread and butter and your idea of "absurd loopholes" is something that puts money in someone else's pocket. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Bateshorn 9899]

Look: the strong dollar, balanced budgets, & trade surpluses mantra is powerful medicine as an idea.  It doesn’t necessarily comport to reality, modern global trade flows, or good long term policy, but it’s an idea of which many of us are fond.  
 

Combine that with “smoke or do what you want in the bedroom as long as everyone is consenting and of age” and you’ve got a politically winner.  
 

The economics part tho is shaky at best in the real world.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Bateshorn

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

13 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Trump running as an independent in 2024 would be a wonderful result.

If you speak this into existence I will find you and cut you. Fuck no. He needs to go so so so far away and be shot into the sun.  For the good of America. Not show up as the third party court jester.   

[Bateshorn 9899]

I’d also like to know more about Wulaw’s “shoot Trump into the sun” platform.

[Brisketexan 104612]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If you speak this into existence I will find you and cut you. Fuck no. He needs to go so so so far away and be shot into the sun.  For the good of America. Not show up as the third party court jester.   

Again, this is where your wishful thinking is utterly divorced from reality.  Trump isn't a sideshow, he isn't a jester.  He is our id - or at least the id of a very large, statistically significant segment of our population.  "He says what I'm thinking!  He talks the way I do!"  That is people celebrating their id.

That is not going away.  Our id has learned the liberating joy and pleasure of strutting around shamelessly, like a hairy fat man in a speedo.  He ain't gonna suddenly get modest and put on a robe.  Nope....he's gonna be out there strutting his stuff for a LONG time....

 

[Voldemort86 2259]

I know we’re told to not freak about the early vote totals, but I really do think the numbers look good for Democrats in Florida so far. 
 

https://countyballotfiles.floridados.gov/VoteByMailEarlyVotingReports/PublicStats
 

In 2016 about 9 million votes were cast between trump and Clinton.

Nearly 2 million Floridians have voted already by mail.

the party breakdown is :

564,455 repub

967,088 Democrat 

21,778 other 

363,764 no party affiliation 

democrats still have 1.6 million mailed ballots that haven’t been returned while the GOP has 1.2 million outstanding.

if the polls are to be believed, the democrats should probably win the no party affiliation/ other category by 5-10 points.

we will see how early in person voting goes, but the democrats could force trump to get 400-500K votes on Election Day which would be a big ask, even for him.

going into Election Day, I seem to recall Clinton having a 120K vote lead, but we’ve never seen democrats win the mail in voting category before.
 

looking at all of this makes me think that the democrats actually are a slight favorite to win Florida. What do you guys think?

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Voldemort86

[Brisketexan 104612]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I’d also like to know more about Wulaw’s “shoot Trump into the sun” platform.

"We're gonna need a bigger catapult...."

[Huckleberry 32701]

8 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If you speak this into existence I will find you and cut you. Fuck no. He needs to go so so so far away and be shot into the sun.  For the good of America. Not show up as the third party court jester.   

I mean I know it would be a rough 8 years for your preferred party, but it would be better for it in the long run for it to be completely destroyed and then rebuilt.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Huckleberry

[conVINCEd 21468]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

I’d also like to know more about Wulaw’s “shoot Trump into the sun” platform.

I’m a fan of exile.  Find some speck of an island in the middle of the Indian Ocean, and just dump the whole clan there.  No internet access, and give them enough food and water for a few months, after that runs out they can figure things out for themselves.  Have a patrol ship a mile or two off the coast so it can be assured that no one comes or goes.

[SydneyCarton 47879]

19 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You see anyone running on a platform of that anywhere? And with even the remotest interest in making that happen?  My take is that I think you are wrong and wish in one hand shit in the other and see what fills up first, but if you can get together the coalition to make that happen I will certainly quietly cheer you on from afar to see how it works. It's worth trying. But it's completely fucking revolutionary and won't happen.  We would need to see it happen to see which of us is right and there really isn't any appetite to do any of what you want to see done- nor any stakeholders to pound on the table and make that happen.  

Back when the GOP was the party of ideas there were some in favor of flat tax or consumption tax as probably the only way of simplifying the tax code that would actually work (good luck getting rid of "loopholes" in todays tax code) and although I supported Forbes he had a ceiling of about 15% within the party and that was a DOA proposition with Dems.  You have about 10% of the population, tops, that wants that as a voting platform.  Because your wasteful spending is someone else's bread and butter and your idea of "absurd loopholes" is something that puts money in someone else's pocket. 

No, I don't see anyone running on that platform. I see two platforms. Actually, I see 2.5 Platforms:

1.) I'm Fucking Donald Trump, Fuck You Libs
2.) Donald Trump Can Get Fucked/Lets Get Slightly More Progressive and Climate Change Conscious

We both know at this point that you and I are basically spouting things we fervently believe, but can't really prove. Although is a LOT of anecdotal evidence there are ways we can increase tax revenue, fix spending, and get more efficient. One piece of strong evidence is to basically look at our monetary policy from 40-50 years ago, and go from there. But that's neither here nor there at this point. I can't prove it until someone does it, and you don't think it can happen. At this point we're arguing about something neither you nor I can prove definitively on a message board. But I fucking believe it.

But you're right. That coalition can't be built right now. We have to fix our news networks, we have to fix social media, we have to fix so many things for that to get above water enough to get attention. Although a progressive movement or war might make that happen faster. The other way is for me or someone to embark on a fucking life career of politics starting small, and winning up to high elected official status, and then getting buy in from America. Which isn't happening because I like saying Fuck too much. 

But youre right. Loopholes are hard to get rid off, they require a huge voting mandate and majority. But I would argue that you're failing to consider that as the income inequality continues to go flying into wide disparity, that's a lot less individual voters to vote for what they want, just a fuck ton of money. Which doesn't make it impossible. Just hard. What happens when you put too much weight on one side of the scale and jack fucking shit on the other? Correction. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Voldemort86 2259]

Wisconsin update 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

I’d also like to know more about Wulaw’s “shoot Trump into the sun” platform.

Look- let me play the victim here for a minute on this whole Trump thing - because that's what middle age white people like to remind everyone- how victimized we are. 

Trump has been just terrible for me as a conservative who tries really hard to love other people and genuinely wants to see the world made a kinder and friendlier place- while also not going so fast down a direction that we risk losing some of the ties that bind us and make us a pretty great country and keep us glued together.  

That dipshit has coopted some ideas I like. Hell- I think his policy positions- if you look at them- are just "whatever the majority of Americans think about a particular issue". And then he's dumbed them down, stripped them of any nuance, slathered on a layer of dumbassery in some cases and vindictiveness in others, and made it unpalatable to anyone with any sense.  

He beat a field full of 19 people that I thought had some talent- talked down and demeaned most of what was accomplished in a bi-partisian way in the last generation (Nafta- shit like that) and stirred the world up in such a way that people are talking about politics all the time and just won't shut up about it- and it's obnoxious for normal people to talk about politics all the time and not shut up about it.  I'm tired of my wife watching CNN and Fox News all the time and asking me questions about the world. I want to go back to drinking, smoking, fucking, raising our kids and talking about how we can make a positive difference in our part of the world- and not how batshit crazy everything has gotten.  

So yeah- fucking launch him into the sun. He's a cancer. And the faustian bargain that was made by the people in my church for some supreme court justices sucks and they are going to be left holding the bag for a generation, somewhat deservedly so (it's not SOCON's that got him nominated- but they sure as shit fell in line in the general and got him elected). 

Rant over. 

[mchookem 16214]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Just grabbing this one point -- and thanks for bringing it up.

My wife and I have already discussed this.  We haven't flown our flag in four years.  If we take back the White House for the people, I'll have it flying from our house at dawn the next day.  And yes, we need to reclaim it.  It needs to show up at our marches and demonstrations.  It needs to show up when we show up.  Because it's OUR country.  And that flag can and should stand for something different and better than the fuckstick Trumpers have claimed it for.  Dems need to reclaim the flag, and they need to reclaim patriotism (not nationalism, but patriotism).  We love our country so much that we're willing to do whatever we can to point it in the right direction; to make it an America for ALL Americans.  That's the essence of true patriotism.  Fuck the Trumpers for claiming a country that belongs to all of us as just theirs.

this reminds me of a conversation with my husband this summer as we were traveling...we did several road trips (i hate flying anyway but definitely not w/ covid).

i am white, my husband black. while traveling we were talking about other areas we'd like to see, and he is/was adamant about certain places he doesn't want to go, such as the smoky mountains, hot springs, the PNW...specifically bc of racism/super red areas, etc. he's always 'looking out'.

my argument was "fuck that, why do just the assholes get to enjoy all these beautiful places?? this is my country, too!"

now, i realize as a white middle aged woman i've got a certain privilege, that i can go anywhere i want...but the point stands and i'm willing to fight for it. 

i feel the same about the flag...fuck them, it's MY flag and MY country too.

[Bateshorn 9899]

Dude: I want to put the man into a Saturn V and launch him into the sun.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Bateshorn

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

8 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

I know we’re told to not freak about the early vote totals, but I really do think the numbers look good for Democrats in Florida so far. 
 

https://countyballotfiles.floridados.gov/VoteByMailEarlyVotingReports/PublicStats
 

In 2016 about 9 million votes were cast between trump and Clinton.

Nearly 2 million Floridians have voted already by mail.

the party breakdown is :

564,455 repub

967,088 Democrat 

21,778 other 

363,764 no party affiliation 

democrats still have 1.6 million mailed ballots that haven’t been returned while the GOP has 1.2 million outstanding.

if the polls are to be believed, the democrats should probably win the no party affiliation/ other category by 5-10 points.

we will see how early in person voting goes, but the democrats could force trump to get 400-500K votes on Election Day which would be a big ask, even for him.

going into Election Day, I seem to recall Clinton having a 120K vote lead, but we’ve never seen democrats win the mail in voting category before.
 

looking at all of this makes me think that the democrats actually are a slight favorite to win Florida. What do you guys think?

 

I've been on Biden is winning train all along- but man I wouldn't put any stock in any early voter numbers or mail in numbers in this year of 2020 in Covid.  Its incredibly likely that lots of that is just banking votes early. Which matter a bit I guess, but it's just that we are in uncharted territory. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

8 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I mean I know it would be a rough 8 years for your preferred party, but it would be better for it in the long run for it to be completely destroyed and then rebuilt.

There's no way Trump being around in 2024 is good for America.  it needs to not happen. 

[Brisketexan 104612]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

There's no way Trump being around in 2024 is good for America.  it needs to not happen. 

You pretty much just guaranteed 100% that Trump, the Trump family, and Trumpism, will be the force to reckon with in American politics for a generation.

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

35 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Trump running as an independent in 2024 would be a wonderful result.

Party like it’s 1992

[Storm the Field 5273]

SurveyUSA has Trump only up 7, 49-42 in Indiana. That would be a 12 point swing from 2016 (56-37).

 

[gmr548 16513]

So balancing the budget and reducing debt over time is not "addressing debt"?  You have a really odd definition of the phrase.

Slorch'ed.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

10 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

No, I don't see anyone running on that platform. I see two platforms. Actually, I see 2.5 Platforms:

1.) I'm Fucking Donald Trump, Fuck You Libs
2.) Donald Trump Can Get Fucked/Lets Get Slightly More Progressive and Climate Change Conscious

We both know at this point that you and I are basically spouting things we fervently believe, but can't really prove. Although is a LOT of anecdotal evidence there are ways we can increase tax revenue, fix spending, and get more efficient. One piece of strong evidence is to basically look at our monetary policy from 40-50 years ago, and go from there. But that's neither here nor there at this point. I can't prove it until someone does it, and you don't think it can happen. At this point we're arguing about something neither you nor I can prove definitively on a message board. But I fucking believe it.

But you're right. That coalition can't be built right now. We have to fix our news networks, we have to fix social media, we have to fix so many things for that to get above water enough to get attention. Although a progressive movement or war might make that happen faster. The other way is for me or someone to embark on a fucking life career of politics starting small, and winning up to high elected official status, and then getting buy in from America. Which isn't happening because I like saying Fuck too much. 

But youre right. Loopholes are hard to get rid off, they require a huge voting mandate and majority. But I would argue that you're failing to consider that as the income inequality continues to go flying into wide disparity, that's a lot less individual voters to vote for what they want, just a fuck ton of money. Which doesn't make it impossible. Just hard. What happens when you put too much weight on one side of the scale and jack fucking shit on the other? Correction. 

Here's where I have a hard time with what you are saying:  We have a 100+ year history of lots of different tax rates and things happening to the tax code. And at the end of the day there's like a magic ceiling of what- something like 20-22% of GDP is all that can be collected as tax revenue. And I think that's pretty similar in other places around the world.  The Church asked for 10% of everything- and charity along the same lines (I'm not using this as arguing that 20% is true- just that you see it in a lot of different places and ways). Over and over and over the 80/20 rule plays out in humanity and in nature.  I just don't know that anything you can do to the code will lead to tax receipts much greater than 20% of GDP (hell- it might even be like 18 or 19 percent- I'm doing this from memory).  

If you get much higher than that people will just start cheating or they will just stop creating.  So- any reforms should be designed to minimize waste- promote fairness- help economy grow- but you aren't going to start dropping a shit load more cash into the coffers of the US government. I'd love to see what anecdotal evidence you have that we can increase tax revenue b/c I think there's only so much juice that you can squeeze and we are getting most of it- even if it's not in the best and most efficient and fair way.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

You pretty much just guaranteed 100% that Trump, the Trump family, and Trumpism, will be the force to reckon with in American politics for a generation.

This is one of many reasons the potential Biden administration should avoid “turning the page” on Trump for the sake of “unity”, should he win.

Trump needs to be prosecuted for his crimes in office.  A failure to do so will only enable Trumpism to fester and re-emerge worse.  

I unfortunately expect the Biden administration to do exactly what they should not do and sweep Trump under the rug for political expediency reasons.  It is the wrong move and one of my major concerns with Biden.