2020 Presidential Election -- Biden v Trump: Sleepy Joe vs Dopey Don [Results begin on page 409]

[6th Street 6340]

4 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Absolutely. But saying we’ll be off fossil fuels anytime soon is asinine and easily shut down. It’s just a bad hill to die on. You especially don’t go as far out to say you want out 100%. One of the things Trump hit on, I think successfully, is that joe is all talk just like all politicians. This is an all talk issue and that is apparent to probably 75% or more of the population. However, the issue is something that can be attainable. Saying we’ll defund oil companies and get off oil by 2035 or 2050 (I heard both years at some point) is so easy to counter that I can’t imagine any high school debate teacher would suggest taking that stance. It’s a simple tactical error by Biden that probably hurts him more than the actual probability that joe kills O&G. You just don’t make that mistake with 10 days left until election. 

Fair, if nothing else it's a negative sound byte that may or may not cost him some votes. Conversely, it's nice to see some conviction on climate - which possibly won him some votes as a partial offset.

[Jhawk 1075]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

To be honest, you are wildly off here. Gas power generation is here for quite awhile, but everything else is going the way of the dodo rapidly.

I wasn’t just talking about oil for energy. I come from petroleum based products. Even if we eliminated oil based energy and automobiles altogether we are still incredibly dependent on oil. The clothes you wear have oil in them. The highly efficient plastics we use daily are oil based. Nearly everything we touch has some sort of fossil fuel in it or is heavily reliant on fossil fuel to produce. That isn’t a 15-35 year project to eliminate. 

[DigDug 1649]

3 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Wait.

You think one comment from Biden about transitioning away from fossil fuels to renewable energy could lead to him losing the election??????

Seriously?

I know Texans have a bit of a problem with thinking they’re somehow special and better than everyone else but my god.

News flash - 97% of Americans don’t give a blue fuck about what he said and by this time next week, 867 horrible, weird, or unprecedented events will have happened and then 100% of Americans won’t even remember he said it.



It’s like some of y’all have subconsciously bought into the Republican talking points about about Biden being senile and Biden being a gaffe machine. And since Biden has not only been pretty gaffe free but he’s actually been pretty damn sharp and impressive y’all are looking for shit to turn into mistakes.

The complete overreaction on this board about that comment, while ignoring the hundreds of lies and terrible shit Trump said last night has been something else.

Nobody said anything about ignoring his lies.  It’s a comment on the delusion and easy persuasion on half this country.  Go eat some more pills.

[G650 13990]

1 minute ago, Jhawk said:

The clothes you wear have oil in them.

Yeah, mine don't mostly.

 

But yes, I know all that. I'm a site contractor, I use all sort of oil based products, like PVC pipe, not to mention the fuel in my equipment. And it's rapidly disappearing. Equipment is going all electric, things like lubes and stuff are already non petroleum based, etc...

[RomaVicta 29756]

26 minutes ago, DigDug said:

 

That is funny and recalls one of Biden's strong moments. He owned the error of the law enforcement bill even though he could point out that just about everybody backed it at the time. I found that admirable. He recognized the error and could name concrete ways he'd tried to correct it.

Imagine Abraham Lincoln over there (I was amused by that, but I can be a small person):

1. Admitting an error
2. Correcting an error
3. Saying that he hadn't quite done enough in correcting the error.

That takes a man or woman of substance and integrity. Not Donald "Somebody say cocaine?!?" Trump who has people calling him from all over the world with their tears shorting out their phones as they tell him what a phenomenal job he's doing.

 

[ryskey 447]

There are lots of shy Biden voters in the oil industry.  Still a minority, but a pretty big one, especially with the under 40 crowd.  I'm sure this will have an effect with some of them.  Just spoke to several last night.  Is that enough to be the deciding factor?  I can't say for sure but probably not.  Guessing something on the order of 10s of thousands of people. 

If Trump wins TX by less than ~30k, Biden's comment in hindsight will have been a colossal blunder.  But in a state of close to 30 million people, if Trump wins, it will likely be by much more than 30k.

[henrygandorf 29174]

8 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Wait.

You think one comment from Biden about transitioning away from fossil fuels to renewable energy could lead to him losing the election??????

Seriously?

I know Texans have a bit of a problem with thinking they’re somehow special and better than everyone else but my god.

News flash - 97% of Americans don’t give a blue fuck about what he said and by this time next week, 867 horrible, weird, or unprecedented events will have happened and then 100% of Americans won’t even remember he said it.



It’s like some of y’all have subconsciously bought into the Republican talking points about about Biden being senile and Biden being a gaffe machine. And since Biden has not only been pretty gaffe free but he’s actually been pretty damn sharp and impressive y’all are looking for shit to turn into mistakes.

The complete overreaction on this board about that comment, while ignoring the hundreds of lies and terrible shit Trump said last night has been something else.

it's all part of the ptsd from 2016 and the helplessness everyone feels about the lack of accountability from the past 3.5 years.  we all process it in different ways. 

we have double digit leads all over the place and outside-the-moe leads in states that matter, but nobody will feel safe until biden's hand is on the bible.

but i agree with you, nothing is fucked here.

[henrygandorf 29174]

2 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Trump who has people calling him from all over the world with their tears shorting out their phones as they tell him what a phenomenal job he's doing.

from his comments it seems an awful lot of people have his direct line.  even people that would never normally call or support him can just get patched right through.

[cactusflinthead 27593]

5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yeah, mine don't mostly.

 

But yes, I know all that. I'm a site contractor, I use all sort of oil based products, like PVC pipe, not to mention the fuel in my equipment. And it's rapidly disappearing. Equipment is going all electric, things like lubes and stuff are already non petroleum based, etc...

That reminds me that I need to take a crew some more rat bait. I didn't know that the insulation on wires in their trucks was plant based and those fuckers love it. 

[Horn Dogg 3805]

4 minutes ago, ryskey said:

There are lots of shy Biden voters in the oil industry.  Still a minority, but a pretty big one, especially with the under 40 crowd.  I'm sure this will have an effect with some of them.  Just spoke to several last night.  Is that enough to be the deciding factor?  I can't say for sure but probably not.  Guessing something on the order of 10s of thousands of people. 

If Trump wins TX by less than ~30k, Biden's comment in hindsight will have been a colossal blunder.  But in a state of close to 30 million people, if Trump wins, it will likely be by much more than 30k.

I work for a oil company and I voted for Biden.  Neither Biden or Trump has much control over the industry, for me it’s more of a choice between having a total shithead grifter or someone that seems like a decent guy as President.  I would give up my job if it meant having a good country to live in.  There are plenty of other ways to make money and plenty of things more important than money.

[Herpa Derpa 6105]

7 hours ago, Calihorn said:

 

@Johnny Sack wants to know why you're talking about polls of Venutians?

[Brisketexan 104465]

10 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

it's all part of the ptsd from 2016 and the helplessness everyone feels about the lack of accountability from the past 3.5 years.  we all process it in different ways. 

we have double digit leads all over the place and outside-the-moe leads in states that matter, but nobody will feel safe until biden's hand is on the bible.

PREACH.  Again, no way I sleep or think anything good until they're signing papers on the deck of the Missouri in Tokyo bay.

12 minutes ago, G650 said:

Equipment is going all electric, things like lubes and stuff are already non petroleum based, etc...

Electric equipment?  Non petroleum based lubes?  @NowThis ?

[ryskey 447]

10 minutes ago, Horn Dogg said:

I work for a oil company and I voted for Biden.  Neither Biden or Trump has much control over the industry, for me it’s more of a choice between having a total shithead grifter or someone that seems like a decent guy as President.  I would give up my job if it meant having a good country to live in.  There are plenty of other ways to make money and plenty of things more important than money.

This is where I am as well.  The folks I spoke to yesterday who were most vociferous about the comment were already likely voting for Trump.  If you're a Biden voter in the oil industry, then most of the time the comment last night won't change your mind.  

[4th&Five 41457]

 

[Horn Dog 9644]

Wait, I thought high energy prices was a good thing for the OG industry??

[Brisketexan 104465]

7 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Except.....he literally did NOT say that?  Substituting in a word that wasn't what he said is what you call a "lie."

How about this -- last night, I heard Donald Trump say "I think I'd like to eat [a big plate of runny shit] for dinner."  Or how about this - I heard him say "I am the [most] racist person in this room!"

[Eastwood 4394]

Look, everyone, I can put this whole oil thing to rest... I went to TexAgs last night and they were throwing a Trump victory celebration over the comment. They are convinced that Biden just sealed his fate in literally every swing state and Lean D state over that comment. They think Trump is getting over 350 EC votes. When TexAgs is that sure of something, it is doomed to be the exact opposite.

[Brisketexan 104465]

1 minute ago, Horn Dog said:

Wait, I thought high energy prices was a good thing for the OG industry??

Yeah, that's also a good one.  O&G people, don't vote for Biden, he'll drive WTI up to $80 bbl!!!

[Horn Dogg 3805]

17 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Horn Dogg

[Jhawk 1075]

34 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yeah, mine don't mostly.

 

But yes, I know all that. I'm a site contractor, I use all sort of oil based products, like PVC pipe, not to mention the fuel in my equipment. And it's rapidly disappearing. Equipment is going all electric, things like lubes and stuff are already non petroleum based, etc...

Maybe I'm just going deeper than you are.  Especially if we get into the Green New Deal.  PVC isn't going to go away because it is far better, cheaper, and efficient than the alternatives.  If it wasn't we wouldn't use it now.  If we're rebuilding infrastructure and buildings (like GND proposes) then we would probably actually see an enormous spike in use of petroleum based products.  Solar panels aren't made with mud.  Energy efficient insulation isn't made by chewing on hemp.  That stuff is made with petroleum based products.

That being said, we're getting away from the original intent of my comment and the thread.  Biden didn't have to go where he went and he did.  A tactical error that Trump is going to jump on.  How much it matters with a week and a half left will be determined soon (hopefully not by a court or the legislature).

[Bateshorn 9882]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah, that's also a good one.  O&G people, don't vote for Biden, he'll drive WTI up to $80 bbl!!!

As my uncle says:  There’s nothing in the O&G business that $100 a barrel prices won’t fix. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Bateshorn

[henrygandorf 29174]

i don't know about you guys, but i'm really starting to worry about north dakota.

[BradInATX 9208]

Ya'll are talking to an extreme right winger, FYI. 

['stache 21743]

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

Ain't that America, somethin' to see, baby.

the most greatest bestest country in the world has ever seen most bigly ever

[Jhawk 1075]

5 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Ya'll are talking to an extreme right winger, FYI. 

Meh... I don't vote.  Started working for myself and realized that I'm much better off knowing/understanding how candidates and policy will affect my business and adapting to them than actually opining on them.  Also, I'm not really talking about the issues, I'm conversing about debate tactics.

That being said, are you suggesting that cordial conversation about the issues and feasibility of solutions a bad thing?    

[jimmyjazz 45513]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

But it’s 90% of daily life. Everything. EVERYTHING. Has some dependency on oil. Like it or hate it, you can’t be anti-oil right now and not be hypocritical to some degree.

Donald Trump has been anti-oil his entire presidency.  He crows about the low price of oil.  He doesn't care about the people who work in that sector, he cares that prices are lower as opposed to higher.

Anybody wringing their hands over this is a fool.  It's a complete nothing.  At its 2014 peak, oil & gas represented 200K jobs in Texas.  That's maybe 1% of the adult workforce.  Similar #'s for Pennsylvania are higher, maybe as much as 4% of the workforce.  Neither state is "dependent" on oil & gas in any real sense.  Economies are far more diverse than they were 30 years ago.

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Meh... I don't vote.  Started working for myself and realized that I'm much better off knowing/understanding how candidates and policy will affect my business and adapting to them than actually opining on them.  Also, I'm not really talking about the issues, I'm conversing about debate tactics.

That being said, are you suggesting that cordial conversation about the issues and feasibility of solutions a bad thing?    

 

No, I'm simply laying context for where you're coming from. I think you're being a bit disingenuous and dramatic about the impact it's going to have. "That's just a gaffe you CAN'T make (clutches pearls)". It's like a 2 out of 10 on the gaffe scale. But I think the conversation is fine and productive. If you've seen any of my posts on the Board Discussion board, I've actually been one of the stronger advocates for less ganging up on non-liberal posters in the CR. 

[G650 13990]

19 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Maybe I'm just going deeper than you are.  Especially if we get into the Green New Deal.  PVC isn't going to go away because it is far better, cheaper, and efficient than the alternatives.  If it wasn't we wouldn't use it now.  If we're rebuilding infrastructure and buildings (like GND proposes) then we would probably actually see an enormous spike in use of petroleum based products.  Solar panels aren't made with mud.  Energy efficient insulation isn't made by chewing on hemp.  That stuff is made with petroleum based products.

That being said, we're getting away from the original intent of my comment and the thread.  Biden didn't have to go where he went and he did.  A tactical error that Trump is going to jump on.  How much it matters with a week and a half left will be determined soon (hopefully not by a court or the legislature).

Well, no, you aren't.

 

Look, I don't disagree with the fact Biden didn't handle that well. I don't think it's a huge loss for him, but it's not a win either. But what I'm telling you is that stuff like PVC is rapidly going away. I'm watching it in real time. Material science is a constant progression and petroleum based stuff is going extinct rapidly. You need to stop think about what we are using now and what we are going to be using in 5 to 10 years.

[Eastwood 4394]

 

[Tuco 5076]

20 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Maybe I'm just going deeper than you are.  Especially if we get into the Green New Deal.  PVC isn't going to go away because it is far better, cheaper, and efficient than the alternatives.  If it wasn't we wouldn't use it now.  If we're rebuilding infrastructure and buildings (like GND proposes) then we would probably actually see an enormous spike in use of petroleum based products.  Solar panels aren't made with mud.  Energy efficient insulation isn't made by chewing on hemp.  That stuff is made with petroleum based products.

That being said, we're getting away from the original intent of my comment and the thread.  Biden didn't have to go where he went and he did.  A tactical error that Trump is going to jump on.  How much it matters with a week and a half left will be determined soon (hopefully not by a court or the legislature).

1. I don't think anyone is saying that oil extraction will be completely eliminated. 

2. As far as global warming, using oil as a base for plastic probably isn't a big deal.  The carbon stays in the plastic.  (I imagine there is some carbon release, but it's not the same as combustion.) 

3. We should probably be looking to reduce plastic anyway, for environmental reasons that have nothing to do with global warming.

4. There are plenty of cheap, efficient products we have transitioned away from for environmental or health reasons.  Asbestos. Lead.  Most refrigerants from more than 20 years ago.  Who here still has a mercury thermometer?  I will fucking fight you for it. 

5. Most oil based products are oil based because that's what is currently easily sourced.  Oil itself is just a junky, varied hydrocarbon with a lot of shit in that can be broken up, processed, and recombined to what you need.  You can make plastic from corn. You can make plastic from natural gas or coal. You can make new plastic from old plastic. The oil itself isn't that critical, it's the molecules in it. And because we have been breaking those molecules out of oil for decades, we are really good at it.  But it's not the only way. 

 

[Tuco 5076]

4 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

 

Nice. 

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

Welp since we are talking about oil mostly now, I think I’ll participate. 
 

things I know about oil:  it is limited. We will run out at some point. There are different types. We refine it and use the various components for many things. Much of it burns dirty. 
 

things I don’t know about oil:  what percentage of a barrel makes up gasoline, or kerosine, or diesel, or the starting material for the various plastics, rubbers, jellies, hydraulic fluids, heating oil, whatever else, whatever gets burned at power plants?
how necessary and replaceable are these products with equivalent non-petroleum based products?  Do we use all parts of the crude?  Is it take what you need and the rest gets burned for energy?

for example, if we could magically eliminate the need for gasoline overnight, how would that affect the demand for crude?  Would we still need as many barrels, but now all the gasoline goes in the  waste tank to be burned at the power plant?  I would hope not, as that would more or less invalidate the move to electric cars if it doesn’t reduce overall oil consumption but adds all the lithium mining issues. 
 

so, is the goal to eliminate oil (practically, not necessarily every last drop) or to reduce it to a certain point where it will last us plenty long enough to become obsolete naturally and we pollute less during its life cycle?  
 

also, every Exxon Mobile commercial anymore is about alternative energy, so either they are going for some sleight of hand or they really are working to become an energy company instead of just an oil company. 
 

some or all of those answers are probably out there for consumption, I just never felt the need to look around. 
 

Eta:  I worked for years at a petrochemical plant in Pasadena that used refined products from your chevron or who have you as starting material for various products such as paper sizer, electric transformer insulating fluid, airplane moveable surface hydraulic fluid, tomahawk missile fuel, concrete sealant, and some other shit that I don’t even remember. Most of it involved taking a 10-20 carbon alkene and adding an anhydride group at the end of it. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Pato del Muerto

[TexasEd 8062]

50 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

Look, everyone, I can put this whole oil thing to rest... I went to TexAgs last night and they were throwing a Trump victory celebration over the comment. They are convinced that Biden just sealed his fate in literally every swing state and Lean D state over that comment. They think Trump is getting over 350 EC votes. When TexAgs is that sure of something, it is doomed to be the exact opposite.

The old 13-0 Branding Iron curse

[henrygandorf 29174]

13 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

 

now do healthcare.

[Longhorn94 2427]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

I know Texans have a bit of a problem with thinking they’re somehow special and better than everyone else but my god.
 

ok, thats just too far. can we agree that he is completely wrong but that Texans ARE in fact special and better than everyone else? i mean its science.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Longhorn94

['stache 21743]

[4th&Five 41457]

 

[Hiphopopotamos 20865]

 

['stache 21743]

Pete Buttigieg will be president some day. It's inevitable.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 minutes ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

I mean, these days I'm pretty happy with Joe Biden. That being said:

 

[4th&Five 41457]

Just now, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

JFC...those are their top priorities in the middle of a pandemic and recession?

[Red Five 40593]

"We are fighting, for YOU!!"

"Oh yeah? Sweet. How?"

"Um... moon base?"

"Thanks."

[Brisketexan 104465]

2 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

JFC...those are their top priorities in the middle of a pandemic and recession?

Dude.....you should be impressed that it didn't look like this:

1 -- all classes are recess!

2 -- free ice cream at lunch ever day!

3 -- no more homework!

4 -- no more tests!

[Herpa Derpa 6105]

27 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I've actually been one of the stronger advocates for less ganging up on non-liberal posters in the CR. 

Multiple posters calling out someone for a drive-by bullshit post or disingenuous (read: lying) post, is not "ganging up on" said poster for being non-liberal, it's what those seeking to deal in facts and truths are supposed to do. Posters are not targeted for being non-liberal, they're called out for being lying and/or delusional trolls.  When duplicitous cowards excuse themselves from the conversation because nobody will buy their bullshit it is not a problem, it's a solution.  I have zero issue with calling out false narrative bullshit for what it is, false narrative bullshit.  The world needs more of that, not less.

The O&G discussion last night was not a game-changer, it is not going to cause Biden to lose every swing state, it is not going to cause a 10+ point shift in the polls.  It was a minor issue (for the majority of voters) in a 2 hour debate.  Arguing otherwise is nothing more than wishful projection and/or willful ignorance.

[SimonBolivar 10898]

5 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Pete Buttigieg will be president some day. It's inevitable.

My favorite candidate of the cycle and my primary vote (sorry @bad_teammate), but he's going to have to start appealing to minorities. I'm not sure that's in his repertoire, but then again he's a smart politician so maybe he'll find a way. 

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

10 minutes ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

That last one sounds a lot like socialism

[4th&Five 41457]

 

['stache 21743]

12 minutes ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

['stache 21743]

6 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

My favorite candidate of the cycle and my primary vote (sorry @bad_teammate), but he's going to have to start appealing to minorities. I'm not sure that's in his repertoire, but then again he's a smart politician so maybe he'll find a way. 

I was almost there but voted for Warren.

[The Royal We 3059]

Jesus, these are not serious people.  I'm with Brisket, I think the campaign manager for my 7th grade Student Council Treasurer campaign could do much better than that. 

F'n embarrassing.