2020 Presidential Election -- Biden v Trump: Sleepy Joe vs Dopey Don [Results begin on page 409]

[totallynotabuttpirate 5342]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/biden-opens-13-point-advantage-as-trump-popularity-drops-to-seven-month-low-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN23O1GX

Quote

(Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden has opened up a 13-point lead over President Donald Trump - the widest margin this year - according to the latest Reuters/Ipsos poll as Americans grow more critical of Trump over the coronavirus pandemic and protests against police brutality.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by totallynotabuttpirate

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Biff Tannen 45491]

Biden ripping the dotard right now.  Sounds pretty fucking coherent to me.  How anyone could watch Joe Biden and not think he's better than dotard is simply beyond my comprehension.

[HenryJames 65887]

 

[Voldemort86 2259]

3 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

I bet Trump will be pissed about this.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

7 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Biden ripping the dotard right now.  Sounds pretty fucking coherent to me.  How anyone could watch Joe Biden and not think he's better than dotard is simply beyond my comprehension.

Not bad.

[Storm the Field 5271]

Saw it pointed out earlier today that Biden is at a 50.2% national vote share in the RCP polling averages as of today. Clinton never reached 50% in 2016. On June 17, 2016, she was only at 40% to Trump's 35.5%.  For a good chunk of the final 5 months of the campaign, she was routinely hovering ~44% with Trump at ~38%. 

In fact, her high-water mark was 46.2% in mid-October, 2 weeks before the Comey letter. Biden's low point to date (47.3%) is higher than Clinton's apex.

On Election Day, she was sitting at 45.5% to Trump's 42.2%. That's over 13% of respondents undecided or third-party on the eve of the election, compared to 8% now with 5 months to go.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Storm the Field

[gmr548 16491]

 

They know that people seeing Trump speak is bad.

[henrygandorf 29174]

26 minutes ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/biden-opens-13-point-advantage-as-trump-popularity-drops-to-seven-month-low-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN23O1GX

 

it's all fake news.  if not for the assistance from the radical left democrat media, trump is up 25 points.  thank you, mr president!

[Biff Tannen 45491]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

it's all fake news.  if not for the assistance from the radical left democrat media, trump is up 25 points.  thank you, mr president!

And this is what they will say when/if he loses.  They will blame the media for manipulating people and will never admit that their guy just didn't have a big enough coalition.  They will claim a rigged election and illegal votes.  They will take this to their grave.  These people are permanently broken.

[henrygandorf 29174]

Just now, Biff Tannen said:

And this is what they will say when/if he loses.  They will blame the media for manipulating people and will never admit that their guy just didn't have a big enough coalition.  They will claim a rigged election and illegal votes.  They will take this to their grave.  These people are permanently broken.

that's how elections work.  the winner will be showered with praise.  the losers will be taunted and booed until my throat is sore.

[Biff Tannen 45491]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

that's how elections work.  the winner will be showered with praise.  the losers will be taunted and booed until my throat is sore.

I don't recall any presidential elections in my lifetime where the loser and their supporters claimed a massive conspiracy against them.  I could be wrong.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

I mean, there was a well documented criminal conspiracy against Hillary but apparently that’s all in the game now so Trump can’t credibly cry foul regardless of what happens.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[henrygandorf 29174]

35 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I don't recall any presidential elections in my lifetime where the loser and their supporters claimed a massive conspiracy against them.  I could be wrong.

trump has spent 3 years crying foul, claiming conspiracy, and lying about fraudulent voting, and he fucking won.

[Ag with kids 581]

On 6/15/2020 at 2:35 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

The problem with that is that if (big if) the Dems can break the gerrymander with turnout things change in a hurry.  

I remember when @Ag with kids used to defend purely partisan gerrymandering, because he thought that it was more important for a state house or congressional delegation to reflect the party preference of the state in presidential elections than to represent actual communities of interest, on the basis that it would better reflect schools or thought or political philosophy or the like. I wonder if he still does, considering that Donald Trump is the living apotheosis of nihilistic partisan tribalism. 

I didn't say it was an either/or.  I said the first part of your statement, but I didn't say the second part.  I believe the make up of the state and House of Reps should match closely to the make up of the state.  Why should a state that votes for one party for every single statewide office be represented in the state lege or HoR by more members of the opposition party?

But, communities of interest are also important.  I agree that the shitty districts they draw are ridiculous.  I think they should work to achieve BOTH goals when they draw the lines...

However, I noticed that the Democratic Party in Texas sure wasn't concerned with gerrymandering being a problem for about 130 years when they were the ones who benefitted from it.  Their concern only seemed to pop up when they weren't the ones in charge for a change...

And WTF did you bring me up for?  I haven't posted on this politics board in forever...I've only occasionally been in the travel board.

[StassneyHorn 6536]

For fucks sake it’s not the same party.  Read about the southern strategy, “suburban strategy” for all the snowflakes just to see changes within the last 60 years.

Lincoln has the same chance as being a Confederate flag waving Republican in 2020 as I have of banging Jennifer Lawrence.

Edited June 17, 2020 by StassneyHorn

[Bozo_Casanova 26277]

58 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I didn't say it was an either/or.  I said the first part of your statement, but I didn't say the second part.  I believe the make up of the state and House of Reps should match closely to the make up of the state.  Why should a state that votes for one party for every single statewide office be represented in the state lege or HoR by more members of the opposition party?

But, communities of interest are also important.  I agree that the shitty districts they draw are ridiculous.  I think they should work to achieve BOTH goals when they draw the lines...

However, I noticed that the Democratic Party in Texas sure wasn't concerned with gerrymandering being a problem for about 130 years when they were the ones who benefitted from it.  Their concern only seemed to pop up when they weren't the ones in charge for a change...

And WTF did you bring me up for?  I haven't posted on this politics board in forever...I've only occasionally been in the travel board.

Because voting is about interests, not parties, unless you think that party control is what legislative elections are about. You seem to think that it's at least a co-equal priority along with local representation and I could not disagree more. The makeup of legislatures should reflect local preferences, irrespective of the strength of aggregated statewide political machinery. And that's not my opinion. That's a historical fact because the framework of legislative elections both pre-dates and exists separately from parties historically. What you are talking about is literally what George Washington feared: faction.

As for the part about the Democratic party, I could give a fuck. That was 30 years ago. Perform fallacy on somebody else, I don't do tu quoque. 

I brought you up because I think you are an example of how nice people who are also smart and somehow have a complicit posture with forces that are hijacking our institutions for their own purposes and destroying our political culture. 

Still, nice to see you on here. If you would care to rise in defense of partisan gerrymandering again, have at it. It's an interesting perspective. 
 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Bozo_Casanova

[Ag with kids 581]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Because voting is about interests, not parties, unless you think that party control is what elections are about. You seem to think that it's at least a co-equal priority along with local representation and I could not disagree more. The makeup of legislatures should reflect local preferences, irrespective of the strength of aggregated statewide political machinery. What you are talking about is literally what George Washington feared: faction.

As for the part about the Democratic party, I could give a fuck. That was 30 years ago. Perform fallacy on somebody else, I don't do tu quoque. 

I brought you up because I think you are an example of how nice people who are also smart have been deluded into a complicit posture with forces that are hijacking our institutions for their own purposes and destroying our political culture. 
 

Faction...well, that's kind of ill defined.  If your neighborhood has different views than the neighborhood across the street, you now have two competing "factions".

And Communities of Interest is hard to define.  I live in Corpus now so I haven't learned it as well, but I lived in the DFW area for quite some time.  Just Tarrant County would probably be at least 20 different CoI...Do they all get separate representatives at the state and federal level?  Obviously, the answer is no, because that's not practical.

Now, the weird ass districts they draw now are, in my opinion, not a great solution and there's got to be a better way to do it that respect CoI.  But, I still believe, at the aggregate level, if the state votes majority Party A for every single statewide office, then the overall values of the majority of the state tend to align with Representatives from Party A and the split of Representatives should represent that (hence, Representative)...

I will say that some of the laws that are on record somewhat DEMAND that we get at least some of these weird ass districts since they require X number of majority minority districts, which drives the process in part.

BTW, factions started right after Washington left office and has been going on our entire history.  What we have now is just a continuation of 200+ years of "destroying our political culture"...

And now that's 2 posts in Politics in the past several years...

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

[Voldemort86 2259]

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

I didn't say it was an either/or.  I said the first part of your statement, but I didn't say the second part.  I believe the make up of the state and House of Reps should match closely to the make up of the state.  Why should a state that votes for one party for every single statewide office be represented in the state lege or HoR by more members of the opposition party?

But, communities of interest are also important.  I agree that the shitty districts they draw are ridiculous.  I think they should work to achieve BOTH goals when they draw the lines...

However, I noticed that the Democratic Party in Texas sure wasn't concerned with gerrymandering being a problem for about 130 years when they were the ones who benefitted from it.  Their concern only seemed to pop up when they weren't the ones in charge for a change...

And WTF did you bring me up for?  I haven't posted on this politics board in forever...I've only occasionally been in the travel board.

The issue is a relatively new phenomenon called “extreme” gerrymandering.

Map drawers have access to modern technology that Enables map drawers to screw the other side so badly that it really isn’t fair.

a good rule of thumb is that the house seats each party gets in a state should generally reflect the partisanship of the state. North Carolina’s old map is a perfect example of how it shouldn’t go. In North Carolina, they had 13 US house seats. The GOP had 10 and the Democrats only 3” you’d think this would be a solid GOP state right? Nope. North Carolina is a borderline swing state. The Democrats still get within a few points of 50 in nearly every election.

technology has let gerrymandering get out of hand.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Voldemort86

[Biff Tannen 45491]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I mean, there was a well documented criminal conspiracy against Hillary but apparently that’s all in the game now so Trump can’t credibly cry foul regardless of what happens.

Yes, but I meant conspiracy theories without any basis in fact.

ETA: that also weren't confirmed by every intelligence agency we have

Edited June 17, 2020 by Biff Tannen

[Bozo_Casanova 26277]

25 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Now, the weird ass districts they draw now are, in my opinion, not a great solution and there's got to be a better way to do it that respect CoI.  But, I still believe, at the aggregate level, if the state votes majority Party A for every single statewide office, then the overall values of the majority of the state tend to align with Representatives from Party A and the split of Representatives should represent that (hence, Representative)...

The values, eh? Explain 90% approval for Donald Trump if this is about values. 

Also, your priorities are backwards. Why is representing the community of Corpus Christi less important than  rubber stamping a statewide majority? And if the whole is more important than the parts, why have states? Why not just assign congressional seats to the parties based on control fo the white house? 

[Ag with kids 581]

16 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

The issue is a relatively new phenomenon called “extreme” gerrymandering.

Map drawers have access to modern technology that Enables map drawers to screw the other side so badly that it really isn’t fair.

a good rule of thumb is that the house seats each party gets in a state should generally reflect the partisanship of the state. North Carolina’s old map is a perfect example of how it shouldn’t go. In North Carolina, they had 13 US house seats. The GOP had 10 and the Democrats only 3” you’d think this would be a solid GOP state right? Nope. North Carolina is a borderline swing state. The Democrats still get within a few points of 50 in nearly every election.

technology has let gerrymandering get out of hand.

You realize that the "mandering" part of gerrymandering came about because one of the districts drawn in 1812 and approved by Gov Gerry of Mass resembled a salamander.

This is not new.  Now, are they more efficient, yeah.  But this is definitely something that's been going on for 200+ years...

And I agree that NC shouldn't have representation like that.  Which is why I referenced TX.  In 2000, every single statewide office was held by a Republican.  The state voted overwhelmingly for GWB for POTUS.  Both Senators were Republicans.  So, obviously, the partisanship of the state aligned with the GOP.  And yet the HoR for TX were majority Democrat due to 1990 Democratic gerrymandering.

The NC case is wrong and the TX case was wrong.

[Bozo_Casanova 26277]

6 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

You realize that the "mandering" part of gerrymandering came about because one of the districts drawn in 1812 and approved by Gov Gerry of Mass resembled a salamander.

This is not new.  Now, are they more efficient, yeah.  But this is definitely something that's been going on for 200+ years...

And I agree that NC shouldn't have representation like that.  Which is why I referenced TX.  In 2000, every single statewide office was held by a Republican.  The state voted overwhelmingly for GWB for POTUS.  Both Senators were Republicans.  So, obviously, the partisanship of the state aligned with the GOP.  And yet the HoR for TX were majority Democrat due to 1990 Democratic gerrymandering.

The NC case is wrong and the TX case was wrong.

Gerrymandering is wrong, because it creates boundaries that have the single purpose of consolidating institutional control by the members of private clubs that have no functional or apolitical role in governance.  This necessarily comes at the expense of real interests. 

[Ag with kids 581]

13 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

The values, eh? Explain 90% approval for Donald Trump if this is about values. 

Also, your priorities are backwards. Why is representing the community of Corpus Christi less important than  rubber stamping a statewide majority? And if the whole is more important than the parts, why have states? Why not just assign congressional seats to the parties based on control fo the white house? 

WTF does Trump have to do with this?  Explain large approval of Biden for the Dems?

Well, the community of CC isn't the monolithic thing you seem to think it is.  I live on NPI.  There's probably 3 different CoI just here on the island.  Then, there's the Bluff (which I assume has more than one).  I haven't learned much past that yet.  But, all those communities I mentioned are QUITE different and have different goals/views.  I did mention Tarrant County having at least 20

What you're proposing would result in a HoR with about 100K+ people in it.

[The Dog 43794]

Back to the election and polls (although the discussions on exceptionalism and gerrymandering has been totally boring er fascinating). 

I think it's interesting that Biden is currently doing BETTER in the likely voter polls than in the registered voter polls. Usually that's not the case. I think that will be something to keep an eye on as the months go by. 

For example, the IPSOS poll above is for Registered Voters. IPSOS also did a survey of just "Adults" and Biden was only up 10 as opposed to 13 in the registered voters poll. Normally you'd expect the opposite to be the case. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26277]

Also - you're wrong. You don't understand Washington's use of "faction". He wasn't talking about parties exactly, but what happens when parties start doing certain things. 

[SizzleChest 8275]

6 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Sleep on Dole at your peril.

[Bozo_Casanova 26277]

2 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

WTF does Trump have to do with this?  Explain large approval of Biden for the Dems?

Because Trump is operating outside of 40 years of Republican values and Biden is inside of the Democratic party mainstream. That was easy. Was it not supposed to be?

[Ag with kids 581]

7 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Because Trump is operating outside of 40 years of Republican values and Biden is inside of the Democratic party mainstream. That was easy. Was it not supposed to be?

There's been a term used for quite some time...RINO.

There are a large number of Republicans don't think that the GOP in office have been actually doing what they said they would...hence, the leftward slide in the governmental policies.

I know you have no understanding about why a lot of people support Trump, probably because you really don't know them well.  But, I know lots of hard core conservatives that support him because he's actually done a lot of the things they've wanted a GOP POTUS to do.  First off, he doesn't back down and apologize to the media when they attack him.  That's LONG been a complaint of conservatives about the candidates.  Reagan did.  GHWB didn't.  Dole didn't.  GWB didn't.  McCain didn't.  Romney didn't.  Conservatives want their candidates to stop backing down.

And he's actually done a lot of the things that the conservatives wanted enacted.

It's really not rocket surgery.

Jeez...I can't believe you dragged me back into this cesspool...

[Biff Tannen 45491]

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

Jeez...I can't believe you dragged me back into this cesspool...

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

7 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

 

And he's actually done a lot of the things that the conservatives wanted enacted.

 

What things @Ag with kids?  Besides standing up to the media, of course.

[Chuckie Finster 22598]

If “HE YELLS AT THE MEDIA!!!” is an actual thing that you take into account when you vote for the President of the goddamn United States, then I think the rest of us have severely underestimated how fucking stupid and hopeless you all are.

[Ag with kids 581]

6 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

What things @Ag with kids?  Besides standing up to the media, of course.

Appointed numerous conservative judges.

Worked to slow illegal immigration.

Enacted almost everything that was on his original plan (it was posted on his website, don't know if it's still there).

Pulled troops out of the ME (which a lot of the right have wanted for a long time).

Killed numerous more terrorist assholes that were actively working to hurt America.

And more...

[Ag with kids 581]

5 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

If “HE YELLS AT THE MEDIA!!!” is an actual thing that you take into account when you vote, then I think the rest of us have severely underestimated how fucking stupid and hopeless you all are.

You're cute, too...👍

[Ag with kids 581]

14 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Ok, cool.

I'd stayed out for a long time until I got pulled back in by @Bozo_Casanova.  Got zero problem just going back to the Food and Travel board...

[Irwin F Fletcher 3550]

@Ag with kids going back to Food & Travel would probably be a wise idea, because the list you put up leaks like a sieve. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21053]

13 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Appointed numerous conservative judges.

Worked to slow illegal immigration.

Enacted almost everything that was on his original plan (it was posted on his website, don't know if it's still there).

Pulled troops out of the ME (which a lot of the right have wanted for a long time).

Killed numerous more terrorist assholes that were actively working to hurt America.

And more...

Have conservatives also been yearning to watch a U.S. President submit to the Russian dictator?  Been yearning to destroy our relationships w/ our allies?  Been yearning to cozy up to dictators across the globe?  IF so, congrats; you're on a motherfuckin' roll. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21053]

13 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Appointed numerous conservative judges.

Worked to slow illegal immigration.

Enacted almost everything that was on his original plan (it was posted on his website, don't know if it's still there).

Pulled troops out of the ME (which a lot of the right have wanted for a long time).

Killed numerous more terrorist assholes that were actively working to hurt America.

And more...

Have conservatives also been yearning to watch a U.S. President submit to the Russian dictator?  Been yearning to destroy our relationships w/ our allies?  Been yearning to cozy up to dictators across the globe?  IF so, congrats; you're on a motherfuckin' roll. 

[Foosters 17727]

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/

Well, almost everything. Perhaps Ag with kids gives him a pass on the things that clearly were impossible to begin with.

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

19 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Pulled troops out of the ME (which a lot of the right have wanted for a long time).

Do you mean hastily pulling out of Syria to allow Russia to overtake our bases? And then sending troops to Saudi Arabia like a fucking mercenary squad bc MBS waved some money around? Oh and Iran is closer to a nuke now more than ever.  Israel is attempting to ramp up more settlements in Palestine bc of support from Trump and any potential peace seems deader than a Virginia resident and journalist for the Washington Post who was murdered in Turkey. Yup. Foreign policy is going like gangbusters in the Middle East

[gmr548 16491]

Faction...well, that's kind of ill defined.  If your neighborhood has different views than the neighborhood across the street, you now have two competing "factions".
And Communities of Interest is hard to define.  I live in Corpus now so I haven't learned it as well, but I lived in the DFW area for quite some time.  Just Tarrant County would probably be at least 20 different CoI...Do they all get separate representatives at the state and federal level?  Obviously, the answer is no, because that's not practical.
Now, the weird ass districts they draw now are, in my opinion, not a great solution and there's got to be a better way to do it that respect CoI.  But, I still believe, at the aggregate level, if the state votes majority Party A for every single statewide office, then the overall values of the majority of the state tend to align with Representatives from Party A and the split of Representatives should represent that (hence, Representative)...
I will say that some of the laws that are on record somewhat DEMAND that we get at least some of these weird ass districts since they require X number of majority minority districts, which drives the process in part.
BTW, factions started right after Washington left office and has been going on our entire history.  What we have now is just a continuation of 200+ years of "destroying our political culture"...
And now that's 2 posts in Politics in the past several years...
 

The thing is, simple math says that if a party has a comfortable statewide majority, even a map of districts completely devoid of partisan gerrymandering will result in that party controlling the lege. Partisan gerrymandering has been used to do the opposite - take states that are in fact very competitive at the statewide level and make them one party states.

[Ag with kids 581]

29 minutes ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

@Ag with kids going back to Food & Travel would probably be a wise idea, because the list you put up leaks like a sieve. 

Luckily I give zero fucks about your opinion.👍

[Ag with kids 581]

 

16 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Do you mean hastily pulling out of Syria to allow Russia to overtake our bases? And then sending troops to Saudi Arabia like a fucking mercenary squad bc MBS waved some money around? Oh and Iran is closer to a nuke now more than ever.  Israel is attempting to ramp up more settlements in Palestine bc of support from Trump and any potential peace seems deader than a Virginia resident and journalist for the Washington Post who was murdered in Turkey. Yup. Foreign policy is going like gangbusters in the Middle East

It was sofa king awesome up until 1/20/2017, right?👍

[washparkhorn 9935]

Ignore is your friend. AwK. The Praetorian Guard that greeted you is merely testing you to determine if you are a bot or a nazi. You are neither. Stick around a while. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

what the hell happened here?  i take my eye off the ball for an hour and the whole operation goes to shit.

 

[thepop 4409]

4 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

 

It was sofa king awesome up until 1/20/2017, right?👍

and there it is. It was only a matter of time until the “but Obama” comment game up. Forget responding to the actually facts that were stated.

[thepop 4409]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

what the hell happened here?  i take my eye off the ball for an hour and the whole operation goes to shit.

 

Let’s get back on track.

 

[henrygandorf 29174]

4 minutes ago, thepop said:

and there it is. It was only a matter of time until the “but Obama” comment game up. Forget responding to the actually facts that were stated.

i also find it humorous that "judges" is #1 on everyone's list of trump accomplishments, but now people are bitching and moaning when the judges didn't do their bidding.

price is right losing horn . gif

[Ag with kids 581]

2 minutes ago, thepop said:

and there it is. It was only a matter of time until the “but Obama” comment game up. Forget responding to the actually facts that were stated.

Where did I mention Obama?

Was he POTUS in the 40s? The 50s?  The 60s?  The 70s?  The 80s?  The 90s?  From 2000-2009🙄?  Hell, from about the 7th century that place has been a clusterfuck.  Even before that, actually.

 

So GTFO here with the "but Obama" shit...