2017-18 NBA Regular Season Thread -- News, Notes, Trades, etc

[Machinator 32099]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

PHI LOOKS like they will be good but there are still a lot of ifs.   Right now, was a 4th seed worth 5 yrs of record breaking shitiness?

You say this as if PHI has reached their ceiling this season.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Machinator said:

You say this as if PHI has reached their ceiling this season.

I say it like they are not winning a title this year.    I'll re-phrase.  Is a single season that doesn't result in a title worth 5 yrs of record breaking shitiness.

[Machinator 32099]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

I say it like they are not winning a title this year.    I'll re-phrase.  Is a single season that doesn't result in a title worth 5 yrs of record breaking shitiness.

The Process was to set them up for the next 8-10 years, not for solely the first season that they weren't a doormat in the conference.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Machinator said:

The Process was to set them up for the next 8-10 years, not for solely the first season that they weren't a doormat in the conference.

Which was my original question.   Are we counting the Sixers as an instance where tanking has worked already?

[Dutchrudder 11136]

PHI LOOKS like they will be good but there are still a lot of ifs.   Right now, was a 4th seed worth 5 yrs of record breaking shitiness?
I don't think SEA/OKC was tanking.   They were bad but were only really down a couple yrs. 
The only time I would say it worked was the half a season SA did it to get Duncan and again that was a half of a season.
 

I think it's too early to judge Philly. Their players won't hit their primes for a few more years, but there's no way they get both Embiid and Simmons without tanking. And Philly only tanked for 3 years. They were mediocre the surrounding years. One of those tanking years was while Embiid was out, which sucked, but he proved to be worth the wait.

[Goo Punch 4275]

14 minutes ago, d2o said:

PHI LOOKS like they will be good but there are still a lot of ifs.   Right now, was a 4th seed worth 5 yrs of record breaking shitiness?

I don't think SEA/OKC was tanking.   They were bad but were only really down a couple yrs. 

The only time I would say it worked was the half a season SA did it to get Duncan and again that was a half of a season.

 

So what else should Philly have done? I don’t see you presenting a better alternative. Philly has gone from THE laughingstock of the NBA to  a very popular, nationally televised, possibly top-4 seed featuring two of the 5-10 brightest young stars in the league in just a few years. Sounds pretty damned successful to me. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

10 minutes ago, d2o said:

I say it like they are not winning a title this year.    I'll re-phrase.  Is a single season that doesn't result in a title worth 5 yrs of record breaking shitiness.

So Philly sucks going forward? What we have today is the zenith of The Process?

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

 

 

I think it's too early to judge Philly. Their players won't hit their primes for a few more years, but there's no way they get both Embiid and Simmons without tanking. And Philly only tanked for 3 years. They were mediocre the surrounding years. One of those tanking years was while Embiid was out, which sucked, but he proved to be worth the wait.

Has he though?    He looks GREAT........when he plays, but he still has only played about 85 out of 320 gms.   And now they have to give him a huge deal having no idea if he can stay healthy.

 

Embiid and Simmons are not the only way to get good.    And you answered my question.    While the future looks good, historic tanking cannot be considered a success yet.

[Goo Punch 4275]

8 minutes ago, d2o said:

Which was my original question.   Are we counting the Sixers as an instance where tanking has worked already?

Again, how has it not worked? You understand that only 2-3 teams in the league are perennial title contenders, right? Actually, you can’t oossibky understand that with your ridiculous definition of whether or not tanking “worked”. No team is on a steeper ascension than Philly, and I don’t think there’s a team in the league with two more sure-fire, marketable young studs. Jerseys are being sold, seats are being filled, games are being televised, and the team is winning. How on earth has The Process not been a success to this point?

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

So Philly sucks going forward? What we have today is the zenith of The Process?

 

2 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

So what else should Philly have done? I don’t see you presenting a better alternative. Philly has gone from THE laughingstock of the NBA to  a very popular, nationally televised, possibly top-4 seed featuring two of the 5-10 brightest young stars in the league in just a few years. Sounds pretty damned successful to me. 

Interesting.   A better alternative would be actually building a team with good management.    Not giving away all-star players and lottery picks.   So a 4 seed and a few nationally televised games equal success?  Pretty low bar, no?

[Patrick Bateman 3911]

29 minutes ago, Radical Larry said:

 

Cavs get a free run and Boston has to be very worried about Irving long term.  Amazing how their offseason splashes aren’t going to help at crunch time this year... 

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Patrick Bateman said:

Cavs get a free run and Boston has to be very worried about Irving long term.  Amazing how their offseason splashes aren’t going to help at crunch time this year... 

Some of this is on Kyrie.   He needed to have the surgery during the offseason but he used that as leverage to strong arm CLE into trading him.   Then he had to play once he got to BOS.

[Goo Punch 4275]

Just now, d2o said:

 

Interesting.   A better alternative would be actually building a team with good management.    Not giving away all-star players and lottery picks.   So a 4 seed and a few nationally televised games equal success?  Pretty low bar, no?

Okay, I’m done with this. Talking to you is an exercise in futility. It’s clear that to you, Philly is never going to be any better than they are now, and that anything short of winning the NBA title is a failure. 

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Goo Punch said:

Okay, I’m done with this. Talking to you is an exercise in futility. It’s clear that to you, Philly is never going to be any better than they are now, and that anything short of winning the NBA title is a failure. 

Yep, that is exactly what I said.   

[MoJames 8244]

You two have NSAA access yet off this conversation?

[d2o 1602]

Just now, MoJames said:

You two have NSAA access yet off this conversation?

Meh, I was already in.

[Dutchrudder 11136]

Interesting.   A better alternative would be actually building a team with good management.    Not giving away all-star players and lottery picks.   So a 4 seed and a few nationally televised games equal success?  Pretty low bar, no?

What All-stars did Philly have before all this? I honestly can't think of one great player they have had since AI. Certainly no one that would get them to the top of the East and compete for a championship.

They are in a better position than they would have been signing free agents and picking in the mid-late draft. That's all the process has done, and they have a bright future because of it.

[chikin23 384]

Cleveland was going to make the finals anyway, now they may sweep their way in.

Rockets/Warriors from the West? Unless LeBron guess complete god mode I don't think it will matter.

[Message Board User 12395]

25 minutes ago, d2o said:

Some of this is on Kyrie.   He needed to have the surgery during the offseason but he used that as leverage to strong arm CLE into trading him.   Then he had to play once he got to BOS.

This x1000.  Kyrie told the Cavs brass he was going to have surgery, sit out the season and live off his royalties if he wasn’t traded.

I also wonder if, given what we’ve seen with IT last season and this, any player is going to trust Celtics doctors on when it’s safe to return to action.

[Message Board User 12395]

Just now, chikin23 said:

Cleveland was going to make the finals anyway, now they may sweep their way in.

Rockets/Warriors from the West? Unless LeBron guess complete god mode I don't think it will matter.

If the Cavs had a decent coaching staff I think they’d win the title this year.  But they don’t so que sera sera.

[d2o 1602]

5 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

 

 

What All-stars did Philly have before all this? I honestly can't think of one great player they have had since AI. Certainly no one that would get them to the top of the East and compete for a championship.

They are in a better position than they would have been signing free agents and picking in the mid-late draft. That's all the process has done, and they have a bright future because of it.

If that is true how have other teams done so without tanking? 

Jrue Holiday, Iguodala were both all stars, Michael Carter Williams was the ROY.  Noel was coming along nicely when they traded him.

[d2o 1602]

8 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

This x1000.  Kyrie told the Cavs brass he was going to have surgery, sit out the season and live off his royalties if he wasn’t traded.

I also wonder if, given what we’ve seen with IT last season and this, any player is going to trust Celtics doctors on when it’s safe to return to action.

I'm almost positive BOS fired everyone on their medical staff after the IT debacle.    Thought I read that somewhere.   Let me see if I can find a link.

 

EDIT:  Here ya go:   https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2017/07/25/celtics-overhaul-sports-medicine-strength-training-departments/zpEhio7QO3NebWGsEDOSGP/story.html

Edited April 5, 2018 by d2o

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

 

 

 

 

What All-stars did Philly have before all this? I honestly can't think of one great player they have had since AI. Certainly no one that would get them to the top of the East and compete for a championship.

 

They are in a better position than they would have been signing free agents and picking in the mid-late draft. That's all the process has done, and they have a bright future because of it.

Outside of Todd Mcculough, I've got nothing.

 

 

Purgatory is what were seeing with Detroit. Terrible contracts with Griffin and Reggie Jackson. Drummonds good but not a franchise cornerstone...then you're stuck with draft talents like Kennard, Caldwell pope and Stanley Johnson.

 

 

 

 

No draft picks+ young player will attract a trade for a disgruntled star either

[Machinator 32099]

18 minutes ago, d2o said:

If that is true how have other teams done so without tanking? 

Jrue Holiday, Iguodala were both all stars, Michael Carter Williams was the ROY.  Noel was coming along nicely when they traded him.

Are you  really going to use MCW in your argument?

[Vic Mackey 47012]

But but but this is the Raptors year!

 

[d2o 1602]

10 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Are you  really going to use MCW in your argument?

Not saying he was great but he was a serviceable part.   Are you trying to build a team or do you think that if a player is not a superstar you dump him for an unknown?    It would have been different if they were trading guys for players that could make them better.   They dumped for the chance that they might get a player in the draft.

If tanking was the only way to get multiple great players, how did GSW get Curry, Klay, Dray and KD?   

I could almost see for a small market team that has trouble attracting FAs but this is Philly.   One of the most storied franchises in league history.    Build a decent team and good FAs will come.

[Goo Punch 4275]

Look man, you clearly have beef with the way that Philly has made their ascension, to the point where you won’t hesr anything hang says otherwise. You think that tanking is deplorable and that trading + signing FA’s is more noble, for whatever that’s with. We get it. You can stop with the asinine arguments now.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Goo Punch said:

Look man, you clearly have beef with the way that Philly has made their ascension, to the point where you won’t hesr anything hang says otherwise. You think that tanking is deplorable and that trading + signing FA’s is more noble, for whatever that’s with. We get it. You can stop with the asinine arguments now.

Yeah man, you got it.   That's all I'm saying.  

[BigOrange1 6433]

philly is set up to be a serious contender for the next decade, which is all you can ask.  embiid and simmons could both be top 5 players in the league 5 years from now.  saric is a swiss army knife that can do a little bit of everything well.  fultz is still an unknown, but there have been a couple of flashes.  they'll have the #10 or 11 pick in the upcoming draft.  they're being seriously discussed as a free agency destination for lebron freaking james.  they have a real shot at making the eastern conference finals THIS YEAR.  

i'm sorry, but if you don't think that's worth a few years of absolutely sucking then i don't know what else to say.  we see things in completely different ways.  

[d2o 1602]

24 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

philly is set up to be a serious contender for the next decade, which is all you can ask.  embiid and simmons could both be top 5 players in the league 5 years from now.  saric is a swiss army knife that can do a little bit of everything well.  fultz is still an unknown, but there have been a couple of flashes.  they'll have the #10 or 11 pick in the upcoming draft.  they're being seriously discussed as a free agency destination for lebron freaking james.  they have a real shot at making the eastern conference finals THIS YEAR.  

i'm sorry, but if you don't think that's worth a few years of absolutely sucking then i don't know what else to say.  we see things in completely different ways.  

As I've said multiple times now, it looks good for them.   I stop short of calling it a success though right now (which has really been my only point).   There are still some ifs.   

It is not something that teams should start doing as the strategy is not a guarantee nor is it the only way to get good as many seem to think.   For the one seemingly good outcome in PHI there are many teams that have tried and not got any better.  PHX comes immediately to mind as an example.

[BigOrange1 6433]

this is really only phoenix's 3rd year to be truly awful (they were 39-43 in 2015 and 48-34 the year before).  and they already have devin booker and josh jackson.  if they are able to add a top 3 pick to that core, they are on their way.

[Gut Wagon 8065]

57 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

philly is set up to be a serious contender for the next decade, which is all you can ask.  embiid and simmons could both be top 5 players in the league 5 years from now.  saric is a swiss army knife that can do a little bit of everything well.  fultz is still an unknown, but there have been a couple of flashes.  they'll have the #10 or 11 pick in the upcoming draft.  they're being seriously discussed as a free agency destination for lebron freaking james.  they have a real shot at making the eastern conference finals THIS YEAR.  

i'm sorry, but if you don't think that's worth a few years of absolutely sucking then i don't know what else to say.  we see things in completely different ways.  

Yep. The alternative seems to most often be to become the Bucks or Hawks or Hornets or Nuggets: not really good enough to ever win anything, but too good to get much help in the draft. It's the purgatory of the association.  

[Dutchrudder 11136]

I like the idea they had that a team who wins a top 3 pick in the lottery one year cannot win a top 3 pick the next year. So if they continued to be the worst team, they would be guaranteed 4th pick, while other, possibly better teams would have a better shot at winning a top 3 pick.

[d2o 1602]

2 hours ago, Gut Wagon said:

Yep. The alternative seems to most often be to become the Bucks or Hawks or Hornets or Nuggets: not really good enough to ever win anything, but too good to get much help in the draft. It's the purgatory of the association.  

What the heck is wrong with being the Bucks right now??   They have a player that is better than both Simmons and Embiid and a few other very good young players.

Derka was just raving about the Nuggets a couple weeks ago.   

The Hawks are now in full tank mode but they won 60 gms just a couple yrs back.  

The Hornets are a textbook example of horrible management that I've been talking about.   They have been bad for quite some time picking in the top 5 most of the last few yrs and still have not got better.   They also signed a bunch of AWFUL deals to compound the poor drafting.

Edited April 5, 2018 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, Dutchrudder said:

I like the idea they had that a team who wins a top 3 pick in the lottery one year cannot win a top 3 pick the next year. So if they continued to be the worst team, they would be guaranteed 4th pick, while other, possibly better teams would have a better shot at winning a top 3 pick.

This isn't too bad of an idea. 

[Gut Wagon 8065]

Nothing at all wrong with being the Bucks today, mainly thanks to one really pleasant surprise on the draft wheel. But I don’t see calling them real contenders yet, so the jury’s still out on whether they can keep building. Atlanta couldn’t despite hitting on Horford and a few other pieces. While they’re hardly the only teams floating around in the middle of the NBA ocean, they’ve been in that zone far more often than not for many years now. 

[Machinator 32099]

27 minutes ago, d2o said:

What the heck is wrong with being the Bucks right now??    Derka was just raving about the Nuggets a couple weeks ago.    The Hawks are now in full tank mode but they won 60 gms just a couple yrs back.   The Hornets are a textbook example of horrible management.   They have been bad for quite some time picking in the top 5 most of the last few yrs and still have not got better.

The Bucks are an interesting case. It's hard to make sense of their roster; minus a center, they have a fair number of legit pieces, but they don't seem to fit together like they do on the court without Giannis dragging them to relevance. No doubt some of it is the leadership. They need to nail their next head coach hire or Giannis will be heading elsewhere when his current contract is up. They also shouldn't be compared to the 76ers pre-Process because that Philadelphia team didn't have any cornerstone nearly as good as Giannis.

The Hawks had their best season ever in 2013, then regressed back to their normal status of slightly above average that they've been in for a decade. It looks like they timed their bottoming-out season right.

The Hornets are terribly run, but check your facts. They haven't picked in the top 5 since 2013 (a terrible draft), and in 2012 they were one away from Anthony Davis. I also don't understand how they relate to this discussion. In fact, the Hornets are the perfect candidate for the kind of purge and rebuild the Sixers went through, but I think the issues with that franchise (read: ownership) will limit their ceiling.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Machinator

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, Machinator said:

The Bucks are an interesting case. It's hard to make sense of their roster; minus a center, they have a fair number of legit pieces, but they don't seem to fit together like they do on the court without Giannis dragging them to relevance. No doubt some of it is the leadership. They need to nail their next head coach hire or Giannis will be heading elsewhere when his current contract is up. They also shouldn't be compared to the 76ers pre-Process because that Philadelphia team didn't have any cornerstone nearly as good as Giannis.

The Hawks had their best season ever in 2013, then regressed back to their normal status of slightly above average that they've been in for a decade. It looks like they timed their bottoming-out season right.

The Hornets are terribly run, but check your facts. They haven't picked in the top 5 since 2013 (a terrible draft), and in 2012 they were one away from Anthony Davis. I also don't understand how they relate to this discussion.

The point about the Bucks is they drafted well and made some good trades.    A lot of that was done before Jon Hammond left which is some of the reason why they've seemed to become  stagnant lately.  The point was they didn't have to resort to losing purposely for yrs to get a top 5 player.

Hornets have been terrible.   Didn't realize they managed to even screw up getting into the top 5 despite being terrible is testament to how bad they've been.   They were introduced to the conversation by Gut Wagon who said they were "purgatory".   They are just horribly managed.

[Gut Wagon 8065]

The Hornets at least threatened to be on the rise (briefly, of course) with Walker. But you’re right about their historic norm being on the lower end of purgatory...at best. Just not a good franchise. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Gut Wagon

[Machinator 32099]

Hammond did well in drafting but was mediocre in free agency. That's part of what's limiting the Buck's ascent (the other major part is probably coaching).

Edit: here are some of the free agent contracts Hammond handed out:

Dellavedova 4yrs/38MM

Miles Plumlee 4/50MM

John Henson 4/48MM

Hammond at least managed to get himself out of the Plumlee contract by trading him to, yep, the Hornets.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Machinator

[Gut Wagon 8065]

The other obvious difficulty in escaping NBA purgatory was just alluded to: free agency. Some cities/franchises just aren’t attractive enough to pull enough difference makers. If you’re an outpost, even if you nail it in the draft one year, it seems you’re more likely to lose that stud than to find another one or two to join him. I know the current CBA helps somewhat with the supermax...but still. 

[Skyline 325]

Like Wagon said, Milwaukee, Detroit, Phoenix, NoLa can't attract big time free agency talent so they have to overpay. Which makes it difficult to engage in trades too because teams only want good contracts. 

I've read from Zach Lowe the supermax hasn't had the intended effect. Smaller teams have been unwilling to commit the resources of a supermax.

[RockyMountainHighHorn 890]

All of those teams have been successful in the past though. I agree that it's tough to be a small market and look to free agency as the quick bandaid but in the past, most small market teams with a solid core have been able to sign good players. 

[Vic Mackey 47012]

Lmao

 

[Machinator 32099]

What a complete meltdown in Cleveland by the Wizards. LeBron and friends erased a 17-point deficit like it was nothing.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Machinator said:

What a complete meltdown in Cleveland by the Wizards. LeBron and friends erased a 17-point deficit like it was nothing.

Gotta love the Wiz.   Up 17 with about 5 mins left.  Lose by 4

Edited April 6, 2018 by d2o

[Message Board User 12395]

7 minutes ago, Machinator said:

What a complete meltdown in Cleveland by the Wizards. LeBron and friends erased a 17-point deficit like it was nothing.

Yeah Lebron tried for like 5 minutes for the entire game and the Cavs end up winning.

Still need to fire Lue.

[Message Board User 12395]

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

Gotta love the Wiz.   Up 17 with about 5 mins left.  Lose by 4

The Wiz are the Clippers of the East.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Message Board User said:

The Wiz are the Clippers of the East.

yep.  Can't get right.

[Michael Knight 12977]

Warriors get blown out, Kerr says they didn't care enough about the game to win, Durant says nuh uh we care.