Are you going to hell?

[bolverk 29656]

As background, my father was raised Southern Baptist, and my mother was raised Church of Christ. When they got married my mom adopted the Southern Baptist tradition.

My mom's mom (grandma) believed that her daughter (my mom) was going to hell for switching from Church of Christ to Southern Baptist, simply for accepting the use of musical instruments as part of a worship service. She even went so far as to condemn my older sister and me to hell for also being raised Southern Baptist and letting the Devil's instruments be a part of our church experience. This isn't a joke: she directly told me as much.

The point is that, early on, I've been told by close family members that I was bound to an eternity of suffering and hell-fire.

Growing up in the Southern Baptist church had its challenges. For one, I recall the fire and brimstone speeches. For another, I remember the rank hypocrisy associated with "just ask for forgiveness and you'll be saved" which led to the attitude of "do what you want and ask for forgiveness later." One of the most striking moments was when the Youth Minister demonstrated souls going to hell by turning a lit candle upside down to show that each wax drop was a soul going to hell.

What shook me out of it was an evening when I went to a county fair with a few "weird" friends and being confronted by the most sanctimonious asshole you could ever imagine. He was a couple years older and was a Youth Minister wannabe. He put his arm around my shoulder and tried to lead me away from my friends when he asked me "I see the people you associate with. If you were to die tonight, would you know where you were headed?" Obviously, my friends didn't meet his specs and, therefore, my everlasting soul was at risk. I told him "no and neither do you." It should go without saying that I wanted to hit him (plus, his name was "Taft"), but the line of questioning was so unexpected and bizarre that I just walked away.

So, yeah, that was the moment I decided that organized religion wasn't for me. Over time, the entire notion of God and religion became an anathema, which held, at most, a slight superstition over my actions. Today, I'm happy to report as "God free."

Unfortunately, now, I have my two aging parents who both believe that I'm going directly to hell. While I obviously don't agree, it hurts to know that they believe themselves to be failures and to also think that I somehow deserve eternal condemnation. The craziest part of it is my stated beliefs and not my actions. I could go rob a bank tomorrow, kill a couple customers, and then have a deathbed conversion. Then, they'd think I was worthy of God's love. Instead, I'll go to work tomorrow, doing something that I believe helps our society, and will be promptly condemned to eternal damnation and suffering.

So, how many people think you're going to hell?

Edited April 13, 2018 by bolverk

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

I can only speak for me.

With respect to Politics, we're already in hell.  Institutions we've traditionally revered - President, congresscritters, FBI / G-Men, even journalists - are substantially corrupted and/or under existential attack.  There is no patriotism, just false pride in country and in self.  I like to think that the utter shame of it all will sober America when the totality is known and that a national mean goodness will prevail.  Guess we'll see.

 

[Guest]

the ones blocking the left hand lane.

 

they leadin the way...

[bolverk 29656]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

the ones blocking the left hand lane.

 

they leadin the way...

2

To hell with those fuckers!

[bolverk 29656]

But, in all seriousness, it's weird and hurtful when the people, who raised you, think you deserve eternal suffering for not believing the same things they do (and are outspoken about it).

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

Not if you're Jewish. They don't have Hell. 

Why did the Christians introduce the concept of eternal damnation if you don't believe them as a theological concept? Maybe because their theology is so preposterous that they felt they needed to scare you into believing it?

I'm still waiting for a description of Heaven that sounds like anything I'd want to experience. 

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

Just now, bolverk said:

But, in all seriousness, it's weird and hurtful when the people, who raised you, think you deserve eternal suffering for not believing the same things they do (and are outspoken about it).

Just say to them: "Will you be in Heaven? Will you be allowed to speak? Yes? Then how is that paradise?"

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

16 minutes ago, bolverk said:

As background, my father was raised Southern Baptist, and my mother was raised Church of Christ. When they got married my mom adopted the Southern Baptist tradition.

My mom's mom (grandma) believed that her daughter (my mom) was going to hell for switching from Church of Christ to Southern Baptist, simply for accepting the use of musical instruments as part of a worship service. She even went so far as to condemn my older sister and me to hell for also being raised Southern Baptist and letting the Devil's instruments be a part of our church experience. This isn't a joke: she directly told me as much.

The point is that, early on, I've been told by close family members that I was bound to an eternity of suffering and hell-fire.

Growing up in the Southern Baptist church had its challenges. For one, I recall the fire and brimstone speeches. For another, I remember the rank hypocrisy associated with "just ask for forgiveness and you'll be saved" which led to the attitude of "do what you want and ask for forgiveness later." One of the most striking moments was when the Youth Minister demonstrated souls going to hell by turning a lit candle upside down to show that each wax drop was a soul going to hell.

What shook me out of it was an evening when I went to a county fair with a few "weird" friends and being confronted by the most sanctimonious asshole you could ever imagine. He was a couple years older and was a Youth Minister wannabe. He put his arm around my shoulder and tried to lead me away from my friends when he asked me "I see the people you associate with. If you were to die tonight, would you know where you were headed?" Obviously, my friends didn't meet his specs and, therefore, my everlasting soul was at risk. I told him "no and neither do you." It should go without saying that I wanted to hit him (plus, his name was "Taft"), but the line of questioning was so unexpected and bizarre that I just walked away.

So, yeah, that was the moment I decided that organized religion wasn't for me. Over time, the entire notion of God and religion became an anathema, which held, at most, a slight superstition over my actions. Today, I'm happy to report as "God free."

Unfortunately, now, I have my two aging parents who both believe that I'm going directly to hell. While I obviously don't agree, it hurts to know that they believe themselves to be failures and to also think that I somehow deserve eternal condemnation. The craziest part of it is my stated beliefs and not my actions. I could go rob a bank tomorrow, kill a couple customers, and then have a deathbed conversion. Then, they'd think I was worthy of God's love. Instead, I'll go to work tomorrow, doing something that I believe helps our society, and will be promptly condemned to eternal damnation and suffering.

So, how many people think you're going to hell?

Your dads parents thought he was going to hell for marrying a Church of Christ woman.

Taft was likely gay.  (NTTAWT.)  He was making a move on you at the country fair.'

[Biff Tannen 45665]

[Guest]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

But, in all seriousness, it's weird and hurtful when the people, who raised you, think you deserve eternal suffering for not believing the same things they do (and are outspoken about it).

If it is their true belief, those 'opinions' are shared with the consequences, in which an equal amount of conviction exists.

It was shared in love, in my experience, even if my heart had to ponder and reconcile that shit for a long, long time.  probably still not done whittlin away at it today, if I'm honest.

[longhorndude 146]

Thanks for starting the “so I’m an atheist” thread i was thinking of starting. I’m sure this thread will go to hell but I’m confident I’m just gonna die one day and shit’s gonna go dark.

I grew up Lutheran, ELCA, we were religious but not overly pushy. Had friends from many different denominations and I was always pretty indifferent at best to organized religion. As I got older I slowly moved from agnostic to full blown atheist as i thought more and more about how fucked up organized religion is and how I just couldn’t rap my head around the denial of science and how much people use religious beliefs to treat others like shit.

Live your life, treat others with dignity and don’t be an asshole.

[BrickHorn 18217]

I will pray for you.

Edited April 13, 2018 by BrickHorn

[bolverk 29656]

The scare tactic is real, and to be quite honest it's the only thing that kept me trained and comforted for as long as it did, but it obviously held no permanent sway. Quite the opposite: it's a message of fear and punishment. I don't know, but that doesn't seem like a way of keeping the sheep in line - especially if they stop fearing the non-existent wolf.

[Anastasis 23464]

11 minutes ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

With respect to Politics, we're already in hell.

Since this is on the politics board, yes I agree with this. We are in political hell.

 

Otherwise, my perspective is that we all go to the same place when we die. If heaven and hell must be conceived as "places", they are the same place. And we all will end up there. It is our experience of that place, assimilation into the divinity, that differentiates.

 

 

[ndawg 1242]

Grew up in a non-religious household, so my vantage point causes me to notice antisocial personality disorders before noticing religious affiliation. I am, however, fascinated by the notion of self betterment, and that's led to me to appreciate a few spiritual teachers over the years.

There's a saying the Christians have -- you'll know the good ones by the fruit. The Trumpkin evangelicals are displaying that they are rotten to their core. They don't really believe any of this shit. They're malevolent people.

Edited April 13, 2018 by ndawg

[JimmyJames 12271]

I don’t believe in hell, but I do believe in God. As for religion, that’s something we created that really has not much a whole lot to do with God. A billion Hindus no matter what they do are going to hell cause they don’t believe in Jesus? I don’t thinks so and simply refuse to believe that. 

[Biff Tannen 45665]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Since this is on the politics board, yes I agree with this. We are in political hell.

 

Otherwise, my perspective is that we all go to the same place when we die. If heaven and hell must be conceived as "places", they are the same place. And we all will end up there. It is our experience of that place, assimilation into the divinity, that differentiates.

 

 

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.

[burntorangebongos 10710]

I'm going in a handbasket because I laughed my ass off at Beaker and Confused Pete.  Can Opener and  Total Recall sealed the deal.

Edited April 13, 2018 by burntorangebongos

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

12 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I will pray for you.

Don't pray for me. Think for yourself. 

[Anastasis 23464]

Forget it, he's rolling. 

[bolverk 29656]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Otherwise, my perspective is that we all go to the same place when we die. If heaven and hell must be conceived as "places", they are the same place. And we all will end up there. It is our experience of that place, assimilation into the divinity, that differentiates.

 

Expand on this, please.

[Pods 7551]

18 minutes ago, bolverk said:

But, in all seriousness, it's weird and hurtful when the people, who raised you, think you deserve eternal suffering for not believing the same things they do (and are outspoken about it).

That's one pain you have to let go of my man. There is fuck all you can do to change them. It sucks that your family is like that, but it is your reality and it's up to you to choose how you live it. if your family is harassing you about religion, get up and go to the bar. Don't make a scene. You don't even have to say anything. Just leave and let them talk about it amongst themselves. 

At the bar, have some drinks and talk to everyone woman in the place. Have you a time and forget about their bullshit. You're family will get the hint pretty quickly that bringing up religion gets you out of the house and into more sinning. Make it into a sort of sin equilibrium if they leave you alone. 

Fuck being upset by their judgmental behavior. You are better than that. You be who you are and you be proud of it. 

[bolverk 29656]

6 minutes ago, Pods said:

That's one pain you have to let go of my man. There is fuck all you can do to change them.

 

Wise words. I'm all out of emoji reactions - otherwise, I'd send you a smiley face.

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

18 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Otherwise, my perspective is that we all go to the same place when we die..

Yes, to the same place we were before we were born. Nonexistence.

Does that thought frighten you?

[ndawg 1242]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yes, to the same place we were before we were born. Nonexistence.

Does that thought frighten you?

It never bothered me until it really dawned on me that I was going to die eventually.

Now, I don't think of death as being frightening, but it is incredibly depressing and panic-attack-inducing. It's frightening to think my life could be completely cut short, and everything I aim to achieve or explore will never be even a possibility.

You and I are going to be erased. That shit cuts deep, man.

[Pods 7551]

deleted

Edited April 13, 2018 by Pods

[yaqdum 182]

mr carlin has something to say.

edit:  sorry had to finish it.

Edited April 13, 2018 by yaqdum

[F250 28764]

Just tell your mom that the Campbellites are right and that her soul is in peril by embracing a cafeteria Calvinist faith.

[F250 28764]

29 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Don't pray for me. Think for yourself. 

I'm going to personally light a candle for you and also request a Mormon posthumously baptize you into the LDS faith.

 

[In10se 175]

Same thing happened with me except it was catholics and certain high numbers of priests who like to diddle children while the church leadership whistles past the graveyard pretending their eyes are closed. 

Then I spent the next few years intently studying many of the worlds most popular religions and their origins and kept seeing the same types of things no matter the religion. 

Finally I came to the conclusion that I do believe there is a creator force or God that orchestrated all we see around us, but there's no credible evidence to suggest that force cares what we do or let primitive man 2000 years ago know what he wants for us to do. It seems to be a very human characteristic to want to tell everyone else what to do. 

[yaqdum 182]

31 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yes, to the same place we were before we were born. Nonexistence.

Does that thought frighten you?

some of you guys are experiencing the awe of the unknown knowing that it will likely be many years before you get to that.  try it my age.  something like half the people i grew up with are gone.  so am i frightened?  not at all.  i've done what i'm going to do.  i've had that moment like we all know on a long plane ride when we feel them cut the power, and we know we're starting the long descent.  i'm well into my descent.  there's nothing to fear and there's no way to avoid it.  it's a bit like parachuting.  you just let go and go.

[Brian Fantana 6681]

There is no hell.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Brian Fantana

[Chewy's Hairy Horn 868]

Intro music at my funeral: Running with the devil. 

[ERhine 1894]

Intro music at my funeral: Running with the devil. 

If that’s the intro, where’s it go from there?

[NameAlreadyInUse 5111]

I grew up Sourhern Baptist as well. And I turned out gay. So even if I still believed in the Southern Baptist way I’d be damned. I don’t, so I don’t worry about it. I try to remember that it is none of my business what other people think of me. I’ll live my life the best way I can, and my family, who is still Southern Baptist, can think what they want. If they feel bad about it, ain’t shit I’m willing to do about it, because I can’t make myself believe, and I’m past the point of pretending for their sake. 

Love your family. Do your best. Don’t worry about the shit you either can’t or won’t do anything to fix. 

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

3 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

some of you guys are experiencing the awe of the unknown knowing that it will likely be many years before you get to that.  try it my age.  something like half the people i grew up with are gone.  so am i frightened?  not at all.  i've done what i'm going to do.  i've had that moment like we all know on a long plane ride when we feel them cut the power, and we know we're starting the long descent.  i'm well into my descent.  there's nothing to fear and there's no way to avoid it.  it's a bit like parachuting.  you just let go and go.

I don't fear death. I could die tonight and feel that I've led a pretty good life. The thought that it would be the end of my existence doesn't bother me. The thought of eternal existence does. 

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

9 minutes ago, Chewy's Hairy Horn said:

Intro music at my funeral: Running with the devil. 

When I was a teen that was my favorite song to crank up on the stereo after I had a fight with my mom. Pissed her the hell off. 

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There is no hell.

Or Hades. Or Heaven. Or Nirvana. Or Valhalla. Or reincarnation...

[Sawbonz 27542]

I don’t care where y’all wind up but I hope some of you get there pretty damn soon

[kopp0e 1135]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Not if you're Jewish. They don't have Hell. 

Why did the Christians introduce the concept of eternal damnation if you don't believe them as a theological concept? Maybe because their theology is so preposterous that they felt they needed to scare you into believing it?

I'm still waiting for a description of Heaven that sounds like anything I'd want to experience. 

At one time (originally) Christianity never spoke of Hell, in fact when 1st introduced Hell was supposed to be some dark cold & blue void of life...

Quote

How & When The Idea of Eternal Torment Invaded Church Doctrine ...

brazenchurch.com/how-hell-invaded-church-doctrine/

1. Jan 2, 2016 - And with today's easy access to the annals of Church history, it's time for us churchgoers to rethink the myth of orthodoxy, and begin re-evaluating what we've been taught. 

[bolverk 29656]

15 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

I grew up Sourhern Baptist as well. And I turned out gay. So even if I still believed in the Southern Baptist way I’d be damned. I don’t, so I don’t worry about it. I try to remember that it is none of my business what other people think of me. I’ll live my life the best way I can, and my family, who is still Southern Baptist, can think what they want. If they feel bad about it, ain’t shit I’m willing to do about it, because I can’t make myself believe, and I’m past the point of pretending for their sake. 

Love your family. Do your best. Don’t worry about the shit you either can’t or won’t do anything to fix. 

I'm all out of emojis.

[yaqdum 182]

8 minutes ago, Chewy's Hairy Horn said:

Intro music at my funeral: Running with the devil. 

that's interesting.  if there is any sort of get-together on the occasion of my slipping out the back door, i would want it light.  nothing need be said unless somebody cared to recall something stupid that i did.  no clergy except in the role of attendee, if such were to be.

song?  maybe this, copyright willing.  there's a lot of pathos in that.

[yaqdum 182]

15 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I don't fear death. I could die tonight and feel that I've led a pretty good life. The thought that it would be the end of my existence doesn't bother me. The thought of eternal existence does. 

very interesting what you say.  my mother lived way too long.  way.  i remember her saying that everyone she knew when she was young and vibrant was gone.  all family.  all friends.  that's an awful feeling.  like you are stuck in a place with people who don't share your memories and don't understand you.  she would ask me why she was still here.

[kopp0e 1135]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

The scare tactic is real, and to be quite honest it's the only thing that kept me trained and comforted for as long as it did, but it obviously held no permanent sway. Quite the opposite: it's a message of fear and punishment. I don't know, but that doesn't seem like a way of keeping the sheep in line - especially if they stop fearing the non-existent wolf.

There is a big difference between these two things:

Spirituality - Spirituality is what you are born with, and "you feel it in your gut", a natural human instinct...

Religion - Religion is what you are indoctrinated with that we learn, it is not always instinctive in human nature...

Church - A church is nothing more or less that a predetermined meeting location of fellowship, for people's of the same beliefs...

Temple - The temple is yourself, within you is what is a true God, as we as humans (while in this physical realm) have the power to choose right & wrong...

[Even the Angels & Demons do not hold such power as we do]... Once we crossover from the physical plane, we still live but in a translucent state (in my opinion) surrounded by those we had the same tendencies with/ of while "living"...

[Mole 4330]

I never understood the instrumental music issue. So I can sing Psalm 150 but I can't do what it says?

 

[kopp0e 1135]

30 minutes ago, ERhine said:

 

If that’s the intro, where’s it go from there?

 

Stairway to Heaven..?

[Anastasis 23464]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Expand on this, please.

Well, this whole conversation is out of place on the politics board and I hesitate to go here to be honest because this forum is just not conducive to a meaningful discussion.  But for what's its worth. 

There is a line of Christian patristic thought that relates to apokatastasis.  This is a form of universalism with some basis in early Christian thought.  It's basically the idea that all of creation will ultimately be restored to the divinity and all of good and evil will ultimately be reconciled. The concept is somewhat tainted by historical theopolitical machinations and association with Origen, but there are a number of other early christian thought leaders who talked about the concept without condemnation. This is going to be foreign to you if your exposure is primarily protestant or southern baptist. Shit it is foreign to most Catholics and Orthodox and others.

The basic concept is that all of creation will be reconciled to the divine essence. For those that are prepared for that reconciliation (i.e. "good"), exposure to the divinity is experienced in a pure sense as this thing that we conceive of as "heaven". For those who are not prepared (i.e. "evil"), the divine essence may be perceived as a "purifying fire". We are all unified to the divinity, in fact the entire cosmos, every bit of matter and creation, is ultimately reconciled in this way. It is our our own unique experience of that process that is an individualized perception of either heaven or hell. However, that perception of heaven or hell is not the end state, it is a transitory state on the path to the ultimate restoration of the cosmos in an elevated state. There are Church Fathers who follow this line of reasoning out to its end, speculating that ultimately the "devil" itself is reconciled to the divinity. Its clearly a minority perspective, but one that I think is worthy of consideration as it integrates well into some other aspects of salvation theology and christology.  

Or maybe I just ate too much acid in high school.  

 

Here is a rather long interview with a professor of theology who has written the most comprehensive treatment of the subject. It's kind of a beating, and you will understand why her definitive work on the subject is a 900 page treatise when you hear her rambling, but if you are inclined to wade through the interview, it provides some additional insight.  

 

  

Edited April 13, 2018 by Anastasis

[Sawbonz 27542]

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yes, to the same place we were before we were born. Nonexistence.

Does that thought frighten you?

Well, he does have a point.

It wouldn't be heaven for evangelical Grandma if her agnostic grandkids weren't there.  So they have to be there for her.  But its hell for them because they have to listen to her talk about what she saw on Fox News for eternity.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ERhine said:

 

If that’s the intro, where’s it go from there?

 

Rocky Top, then Boomer Sooner.