Texas basketball 2020-21: Not even Shaka can fuck this up...right?

[Wulaw Horn 19073]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

See, with those makeup games if we lost out all of those and lost the first game in the tournament I could see us missing the tourney. Don’t think we will lose all those games but it’s possible. 

Ha- I’m an idiot. I went to bed down double digits and didn’t check the score. 
tournament ticket punched for sure now. I love being in the tournament. For 3 or 4 days one can dream about a hot streak happening that leads to our 1 shining moment. It’s such a crapshoot. Hell- Shaka took a team that probably didn’t deserve to be in the tournament to a final 4. Anything can happen. 

[Bitterwhiteguy 153]

21 hours ago, VinyVango said:

I'm an old school X-O's guy, but do appreciate the psychology element required to manage a roster of college kids, especially those who believe they are just killing time before their childhood NBA dreams are fulfilled.  

That said, it bothers the hell out of me that all of Shaka's answers to press conference questions about what needs to change, what went wrong, what went right, etc... are answers like "we need to play for each other"... or "stay in the moment", rather than things like "our movement on offense stopped ... we quit driving the paint... we started jacking up ill-advised, quick three pointers as soon as we got a lead"...  He could be just trolling, but it reeks of a guy who needs to read a few John Wooden books with pictures.

I think I've said this before on here, but I've been to coaching clinics where Shaka is a presenter and he's very detailed in his presentations. I've watched him diagram plays with Larry Brown and they're both on the same wavelength; the issue with Shaka is that he plays everything very close to the vest with reporters. He gives them coach-speak because he doesn't want any opponents to get any details - which is dumb because we all have access to Synergy and other analytics sites now, but whatever - so he talks in generalities in most of his press conferences. About the only time he doesn't do this is when they would have the sideline reporter catch him before halftime and ask him a very specific question ("Why is player X getting to the rim so much against you", etc) and he'll say something more specific, but it's not in his nature to talk in specifics to the general public. It hurts him for this exact reason, guys like you only see him speak in vague answers and so your opinion is formed by that. I've watched him coach the team and he gets on them about footwork angles, defensive stance, downing screens, etc., in very specific terms. I've watched him talk with other high-level coaches and be just as fluent as them. He's got it in him, and he would do well to show that to the general public more often. I think this is one of the reasons other coaches view him in a much more positive light than Texas fans, they see this and most of us don't.

[ztejas 43455]

2 hours ago, Bitterwhiteguy said:

It hurts him for this exact reason, guys like you only see him speak in vague answers and so your opinion is formed by that.

I think our opinions are mostly informed by the awful product he has put on the floor for 6 years now. I honestly couldn't care less what he has to say to the media.

[Machinator 32099]

Agree, people getting mad at what Shaka says in press conferences are just looking for something to get worked up about. Plenty of great coaches have bullshit press conferences. The actual basketball that's played says it all.

[Js1 85350]

Mack basically regurgitated buzz words and bullshit for his entire tenure ("explosive plays!") but we didn't tire of it until he started losing more than he was winning.   Then it just became a running joke.

I don't really give a shit what he says in his PCs, I don't even watch them.  I just see what is posted on twitter by the AAS and other outlets.  

[shadow_operative 15932]

with other coaches- good coaches, established coaches- it's very easy to draw the conclusion that they're simply playing things close to the vest with those coach speak types of answers and statements. with Shaka, i genuinely question how much of it is him doing that, and how much of it is simply that he doesn't have anything substantive to say. remember, Shaka was 37 years old when he got this job, and his only previous HC experience was at a mid major where he didn't actually have a great resume/record. i seriously question how much substance he even has to offer in the way of basketball wisdom and knowledge. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15932]

plus, after 17 years of Barnes being the most open and honest coach out there, i definitely got used to that, and i much prefer that style. i never questioned whether or not Rick was aware of our problems and what needed to be done to fix them, because he was always so candid and honest with his comments. so put me in the camp of someone who much prefers it that way to Shaka's way. 

edited to add- all coaches use coach speak at one time or another. Shaka Smart is the only coach i've ever seen- in any sport- who exclusively uses coach speak, platitudes, and buzz words. nearly six years in and his next honest/substantive remark will be his first. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Machinator 32099]

Coaches are teachers, first and foremost. I'm sure that Shaka knows the sport as well as any high-major coach but being able to instruct players on how to execute his vision on a high level in this conference doesn't seem to be a strength of his. Of course, his philosophy for winning basketball doesn't seem to be particularly great, either.

[Js1 85350]

Texas up 2 spots in NET to #21 - KU down 1 to #17

But I clearly still don't understand NET, because #4 Illinois doesn't budge after losing to #81.  Their 7-6 quad 1 record is pretty good, but OSU is 8-4 in quad 1 and ranked 3 spots lower.  Alabama is 11-1 in quad 1, but 6-3 in quad 2 and 6-2 in quad 3.

OU down 9 spots to #28. 

Iowa, Houston, Ohio State, Alabama, Virginia, Villanova, FSU, Tech, Tennessee all have 1 or more quad 2/3 losses.  Texas has none (4-6 quad 1). 

[dcar00 14210]

3 hours ago, Bitterwhiteguy said:

I think I've said this before on here, but I've been to coaching clinics where Shaka is a presenter and he's very detailed in his presentations. I've watched him diagram plays with Larry Brown and they're both on the same wavelength; the issue with Shaka is that he plays everything very close to the vest with reporters. He gives them coach-speak because he doesn't want any opponents to get any details - which is dumb because we all have access to Synergy and other analytics sites now, but whatever - so he talks in generalities in most of his press conferences. About the only time he doesn't do this is when they would have the sideline reporter catch him before halftime and ask him a very specific question ("Why is player X getting to the rim so much against you", etc) and he'll say something more specific, but it's not in his nature to talk in specifics to the general public. It hurts him for this exact reason, guys like you only see him speak in vague answers and so your opinion is formed by that. I've watched him coach the team and he gets on them about footwork angles, defensive stance, downing screens, etc., in very specific terms. I've watched him talk with other high-level coaches and be just as fluent as them. He's got it in him, and he would do well to show that to the general public more often. I think this is one of the reasons other coaches view him in a much more positive light than Texas fans, they see this and most of us don't.

we give him shit about his bullshit coach speak answers just like we did Mack and every other coach.  He trends toward the stupid life coach crap more than others but whatever.  None of us really cares about that. 

the problem is all his apparent coaching "footwork angles, defensive stance, downing screens, etc., in very specific terms" that you have seen has gotten us a grand total of ZERO wins in the NCAA tournament in 5 fucking years.

Its actually worse that he is apparently "coaching" them and this is the result.  he needs to be fired like pronto. Its embarrassing but it is obvious we don't give much of shit in the AD.

 

[ztejas 43455]

7 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Texas up 2 spots in NET to #21 - KU down 1 to #17

But I clearly still don't understand NET, because #4 Illinois doesn't budge after losing to #81.  Their 7-6 quad 1 record is pretty good, but OSU is 8-4 in quad 1 and ranked 3 spots lower.  Alabama is 11-1 in quad 1, but 6-3 in quad 2 and 6-2 in quad 3.

OU down 9 spots to #28. 

Iowa, Houston, Ohio State, Alabama, Virginia, Villanova, FSU, Tech, Tennessee all have 1 or more quad 2/3 losses.  Texas has none (4-6 quad 1). 

Illinois has been by far the most overrated team all season. I wouldn't be that surprised if they lose their first tourney game.

[Machinator 32099]

Still waiting for the first wave of updates in the BracketMatrix.

 

[Guest Lobo]

So a win at Normal is gonna be very tough.  But no reason we can't finish out 3-1, finish 11-7, and get a Top 4 bye/seed in the conference tourney.?  

[Brothahorn 10087]

3 hours ago, Bitterwhiteguy said:

I think I've said this before on here, but I've been to coaching clinics where Shaka is a presenter and he's very detailed in his presentations. I've watched him diagram plays with Larry Brown and they're both on the same wavelength; the issue with Shaka is that he plays everything very close to the vest with reporters. He gives them coach-speak because he doesn't want any opponents to get any details - which is dumb because we all have access to Synergy and other analytics sites now, but whatever - so he talks in generalities in most of his press conferences. About the only time he doesn't do this is when they would have the sideline reporter catch him before halftime and ask him a very specific question ("Why is player X getting to the rim so much against you", etc) and he'll say something more specific, but it's not in his nature to talk in specifics to the general public. It hurts him for this exact reason, guys like you only see him speak in vague answers and so your opinion is formed by that. I've watched him coach the team and he gets on them about footwork angles, defensive stance, downing screens, etc., in very specific terms. I've watched him talk with other high-level coaches and be just as fluent as them. He's got it in him, and he would do well to show that to the general public more often. I think this is one of the reasons other coaches view him in a much more positive light than Texas fans, they see this and most of us don't.

Excellent point. No doubt Shaka knows the game backwards and forwards. Put him a room with successful coaches and he can hold his own. In HS, my trig. teacher explained that it's not what you can do but more about what you can get others to do for you. So the fact that he can't get his guys to play the game like he wants(at least consistently) is why he is a failure. Very few coaches like Shaka are basketball idiots, they just suck at messaging/teaching.

[Brothahorn 10087]

1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

plus, after 17 years of Barnes being the most open and honest coach out there, i definitely got used to that, and i much prefer that style. i never questioned whether or not Rick was aware of our problems and what needed to be done to fix them, because he was always so candid and honest with his comments. so put me in the camp of someone who much prefers it that way to Shaka's way. 

edited to add- all coaches use coach speak at one time or another. Shaka Smart is the only coach i've ever seen- in any sport- who exclusively uses coach speak, platitudes, and buzz words. nearly six years in and his next honest/substantive remark will be his first. 

Being aware of the problems and not being able to fix them is not something I consider noble in a coach. That's so called honesty is just another form of coach speak. Either fix the problem or shut up/GTFO.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Brothahorn

[VinyVango 694]

I think I've said this before on here, but I've been to coaching clinics where Shaka is a presenter and he's very detailed in his presentations. I've watched him diagram plays with Larry Brown and they're both on the same wavelength; the issue with Shaka is that he plays everything very close to the vest with reporters. He gives them coach-speak because he doesn't want any opponents to get any details - which is dumb because we all have access to Synergy and other analytics sites now, but whatever - so he talks in generalities in most of his press conferences. About the only time he doesn't do this is when they would have the sideline reporter catch him before halftime and ask him a very specific question ("Why is player X getting to the rim so much against you", etc) and he'll say something more specific, but it's not in his nature to talk in specifics to the general public. It hurts him for this exact reason, guys like you only see him speak in vague answers and so your opinion is formed by that. I've watched him coach the team and he gets on them about footwork angles, defensive stance, downing screens, etc., in very specific terms. I've watched him talk with other high-level coaches and be just as fluent as them. He's got it in him, and he would do well to show that to the general public more often. I think this is one of the reasons other coaches view him in a much more positive light than Texas fans, they see this and most of us don't.

I’m glad to hear that. Thanks for the insight. In light of your feedback I wonder why there is such a breakdown in fundamentals, movement and court / time awareness during long periods of time on the court. Are his technique coaching, psychological approach and game planning subpar (despite him knowing what’s right) or are his players ignoring or not absorbing what he’s teachings/implementing?

A couple players who just don’t get it or even a season of bad luck/unfortunate circumstances might not reflect a problem but there’s a pattern of recurring errors and issues over the past 6 years that are very worrisome.

Just my 2 cents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CurlyDumps 4471]

I wouldn't even call it coachspeak. It's odd, self-help, Tony Robbins type gibberish.

And it does not seem to be a just a generic public-facing act. There was an Athletic article shared here last season which recounted a story about Shaka making the players do that fucking weird ass chant which gave off cultish vibes. It was genuinely disturbing.

 

 

[Js1 85350]

Running some Big 12 bracket tournament bracket simulations, only messing with our wins/losses and no one else's: 

2-2 over the last four - 5 seed (Kansas is the 4 because winning %)

3-1, with the loss to Tech - 3 seed

3-1, with the loss to OU - 4 seed (OU wins tiebreaker due to 2-0 record)

4-0 - 2 seed

And just for shits and giggles:

1-3, only beating ISU - 6 seed (Tech wins tiebreaker due to 2-0 record)

0-4 - 7 seed

[shadow_operative 15932]

2 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

Being aware of the problems and not being able to fix them is not something I consider noble in a coach. That's so called honesty is just another form of coach speak. Either fix the problem or shut up/GTFO.

i'm not sure what your point is here. either be perfect or say nothing? there's never been/never will be a coach like that. 

[Bitterwhiteguy 153]

 

2 hours ago, VinyVango said:

I’m glad to hear that. Thanks for the insight. In light of your feedback I wonder why there is such a breakdown in fundamentals, movement and court / time awareness during long periods of time on the court. Are his technique coaching, psychological approach and game planning subpar (despite him knowing what’s right) or are his players ignoring or not absorbing what he’s teachings/implementing?

A couple players who just don’t get it or even a season of bad luck/unfortunate circumstances might not reflect a problem but there’s a pattern of recurring errors and issues over the past 6 years that are very worrisome.

Just my 2 cents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are legitimate complaints to be made about his team performance, and considering I wrote an article calling for him to be let go last year I'm not exactly a sunshine pumper regarding him. My post wasn't so much a defense of his overall performance, rather it was specifically aimed to why his press conferences tend to sound like a big ball of euphemisms.

As for the variability in team performance, I think the general trend for him is similar to most other coaches: the older the team, the less variability you see. This team is overall playing better than any since perhaps his first season, and it's not a coincidence it's led by experienced guards. I think in a non-COVID year, this team is probably more 16-4 than 14-6, and plays at a level closer to their pre-pause form the whole year. I think there are very few coaches who can consistently win with young teams - and even the ones who can have down years, like Calipari this year - and Shaka is not among their ranks. His Final Four squad was 46th in D-I experience, this one is 116th; the two worst years of his Texas tenure they were 342nd & 335th. It's not the only factor - we could get into the recruiting/hiring mistakes when he first got here, the struggle to develop a cohesive offensive plan - but experience matters a lot in the college game.

[Nolacycling 893]

He may have a grasp of basketball strategy, but imo he doesn't teach those concepts to his players so that they can use them in a game. He hasn't designed drills that mimic game situations. 

I can't remember exactly what I was watching but it was a TV magazine show of "let's meet Shaka." The camera's followed him as he instructed the point guard to run a specific play. The kid looked at Shaka and said, "I don't know that one. " 

[Machinator 32099]

9 minutes ago, Bitterwhiteguy said:

As for the variability in team performance, I think the general trend for him is similar to most other coaches: the older the team, the less variability you see. This team is overall playing better than any since perhaps his first season, and it's not a coincidence it's led by experienced guards. I think in a non-COVID year, this team is probably more 16-4 than 14-6, and plays at a level closer to their pre-pause form the whole year. I think there are very few coaches who can consistently win with young teams - and even the ones who can have down years, like Calipari this year - and Shaka is not among their ranks. His Final Four squad was 46th in D-I experience, this one is 116th; the two worst years of his Texas tenure they were 342nd & 335th. It's not the only factor - we could get into the recruiting/hiring mistakes when he first got here, the struggle to develop a cohesive offensive plan - but experience matters a lot in the college game.

The difference between this year's team and previous years' is that they have yet to pick up one of those truly bad losses that usually pop up. The amount of experience (and talent) on the roster provides a floor.

[Bitterwhiteguy 153]

8 minutes ago, Nolacycling said:

He may have a grasp of basketball strategy, but imo he doesn't teach those concepts to his players so that they can use them in a game. He hasn't designed drills that mimic game situations. 

I can't remember exactly what I was watching but it was a TV magazine show of "let's meet Shaka." The camera's followed him as he instructed the point guard to run a specific play. The kid looked at Shaka and said, "I don't know that one. " 

I have literally watched him do this myself.

[Js1 85350]

7 minutes ago, Machinator said:

The difference between this year's team and previous years' is that they have yet to pick up one of those truly bad losses that usually pop up. The amount of experience (and talent) on the roster provides a floor.

Yes, I was thinking about this last night. All of our losses are Quadrant 1.  The OSU loss looked bad to our eyes, but on paper, it's not a "bad" loss. 

OU lost last night to #198 (was #208 before the game). That's a terrible loss. 

[MotownHorn 1762]

7 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

plus, after 17 years of Barnes being the most open and honest coach out there, i definitely got used to that, and i much prefer that style. i never questioned whether or not Rick was aware of our problems and what needed to be done to fix them, because he was always so candid and honest with his comments. so put me in the camp of someone who much prefers it that way to Shaka's way. 

edited to add- all coaches use coach speak at one time or another. Shaka Smart is the only coach i've ever seen- in any sport- who exclusively uses coach speak, platitudes, and buzz words. nearly six years in and his next honest/substantive remark will be his first. 

oh wait. you preferred Rick Barnes?!?!?!?!

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, MotownHorn said:

oh wait. you preferred Rick Barnes?!?!?!?!

to Shaka? who the hell doesn't?

Edited February 25, 2021 by shadow_operative

[HookEm 2467]

Last 2 years: Barnes is 32-20. Shaka is 33-18.

Lifetime win %: Barnes is 65.3%. Shaka is 65.6%

Tourney record: Barnes is 24-24. Shaka is 7-7.

As far as in the court results, I don’t see a huge difference. One has just been doing it longer.

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, HookEm said:

Last 2 years: Barnes is 32-20. Shaka is 33-18.

Lifetime win %: Barnes is 65.3%. Shaka is 65.6%

Tourney record: Barnes is 24-24. Shaka is 7-7.

As far as in the court results, I don’t see a huge difference. One has just been doing it longer.

this is fucking hilarious. one is the third best coach in Big XII history, the other is the 4th best coach at Virginia Commonwealth between 2006-2015, but yeah, they're totally the same guy. 

Shaka Smart is nothing more than Bizarro World Tom Penders- as coaches they're essentially equals, only where Tom's teams score 105 and play an exciting brand of basketball, Shaka's teams score 65 and make you want to gouge your own eyeballs out. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by shadow_operative

[BowleggedMonkey 3]

Last 2 years: Barnes is 32-20. Shaka is 33-18.

Lifetime win %: Barnes is 65.3%. Shaka is 65.6%

Tourney record: Barnes is 24-24. Shaka is 7-7.

As far as in the court results, I don’t see a huge difference. One has just been doing it longer.

Possibly the dumbest comment ever!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HookEm 2467]

[HookEm 2467]

Was reading an article talking about seniors getting an extra year this year. Curious if any of our seniors take advantage of it.

Coleman will probably give the NBA a try and if not that, head to Europe. He is too good to waste another year of earning potential.

I could see Simms playing another year. But he will probably also try to find a paycheck.

Given the friction with Hamm, I don’t think he will stay, even though we will need him.

[PantsTent 2002]

1 hour ago, HookEm said:

Was reading an article talking about seniors getting an extra year this year. Curious if any of our seniors take advantage of it.

Coleman will probably give the NBA a try and if not that, head to Europe. He is too good to waste another year of earning potential.

I could see Simms playing another year. But he will probably also try to find a paycheck.

Given the friction with Hamm, I don’t think he will stay, even though we will need him.

Was thinking the same thing during the senior night presentations.  Febres is the other and he's also had a pretty up and down four years and may be done with it all.  Those four plus Brown and Kai makes 6 leaving and four coming in at the moment to a roster that only has 11 to begin with.  Save that discussion for the "2021-2022 Shaka done fucked it up" thread.

[ztejas 43455]

12 hours ago, HookEm said:

Tourney record: Barnes is 24-24. Shaka is 7-7.

That's kind of a huge difference. 

[Js1 85350]

9 minutes ago, ztejas said:

That's kind of a huge difference. 

But I mean, Barnes has been a head coach longer than I've been alive.  Shaka has been a head coach for 12 years.  It's a totally different sample size. 

[HookEm 2467]

I made the original post as a bit of a joke.  You can obviously pull stats to support any point you want to make.  If you want to compare Barnes and Shaka at the same age, you get:

Years coaching at major programs:

• Barnes:  11
• Shaka:  12

Overall Record:

• Barnes:  202-132 (60.5%)
• Shaka:  267-140 (65.6%)

Tourney Record

• Barnes:  2-6
• Shaka:  7-7

Conference Titles

• Barnes:  0
• Shaka:  0

Conference Tourney Champs

• Barnes:  1
• Shaka:  2

Top-25 Finishes

• Barnes:  1
• Shaka:  2

[ztejas 43455]

10 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I made the original post as a bit of a joke.  You can obviously pull stats to support any point you want to make.  If you want to compare Barnes and Shaka at the same age, you get:

Years coaching at major programs:

• Barnes:  11
• Shaka:  12

Overall Record:

• Barnes:  202-132 (60.5%)
• Shaka:  267-140 (65.6%)

Tourney Record

• Barnes:  2-6
• Shaka:  7-7

Conference Titles

• Barnes:  0
• Shaka:  0

Conference Tourney Champs

• Barnes:  1
• Shaka:  2

Top-25 Finishes

• Barnes:  1
• Shaka:  2

Instead of comparing across programs we can just do something straightforward like compare their first 6 years at Texas. 

Overall record:

Barnes 141-58 (70.9%)

Shaka 104-84 (55.3%)

Tourney record:

Barnes 7-6 (incl. one FF and one SS)

Shaka 0-2

Conference titles:

Barnes - 1 

Shaka - 0

Maybe the B12 is tougher now but I'd argue that Barnes inherited a lot less than Shaka. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by ztejas

[HookEm 2467]

Like I said, you can use "straightforward" stats and still make any point you want to make.  Here's another set:  

Barnes Last 6 years at Texas:  132-75  (63.7%) - 2 Tourney Wins

Barnes First 6 years at Tennessee:  121-70 (63.3%) - 3 Tourney Wins

Shaka's First 6 years at Texas:  104-84 (53.3%) - 0 Tourney Wins

[Js1 85350]

The Big 12 is def tougher now - both from a coaching standpoint and format.  Shaka's entire tenure has been the double round robin and having to play KU and WV twice, whereas Barnes had the majority of his Texas tenure with the North/South split.  Baylor, OU and Tech are better now than they were when Barnes was here.  ISU, OSU and KSU are worse.  CU/TCU is a push.  WV is better than A&M.   Kansas is Kansas. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

what is the point of this discussion here? seriously? if the point is comparing Barnes and Smart as coaches then just stop. there's zero question as to where each coach stands. if the point is to try and figure out the most disingenuous way to make it look like the two coaches have performed similarly, then i guess carry on with your odd, pointless experiment. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

here's a pretty easy and straightforward one: let's compare Shaka to his Big XII coaching peers. what's that? he's in the bottom quartile of Big XII coaches during his time here? got it. case closed. 

[HookEm 2467]

Just for clarity, my point in starting the stat parade was trolling.

[MotownHorn 1762]

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

what is the point of this discussion here? seriously? if the point is comparing Barnes and Smart as coaches then just stop. there's zero question as to where each coach stands. 

Yep. 

One is empirically one of the worst NCAA tournament coaches of all time according to 538

And the other is not

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/

"And at the other end of the spectrum, some active coaches have added this month to their less-than-stellar tourney marks. Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)"

Edited February 25, 2021 by MotownHorn

[Knoxtnhorn 5977]

Uh oh.  Now you've done it.

[Machinator 32099]

Rick Barnes thread is that way -->

[Machinator 32099]

Most of the updated brackets have us as a 4 seed, with some 5s and a couple 3s.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

4 hours ago, Js1 said:

The Big 12 is def tougher now - both from a coaching standpoint and format.  Shaka's entire tenure has been the double round robin and having to play KU and WV twice, whereas Barnes had the majority of his Texas tenure with the North/South split.  Baylor, OU and Tech are better now than they were when Barnes was here.  ISU, OSU and KSU are worse.  CU/TCU is a push.  WV is better than A&M.   Kansas is Kansas. 

OU was pretty good during the early part of Barnes career under Kelvin Sampson. And they were again pretty good during Blake's Griffin's 2 years. They were a 1 seed alongside of us the year we went to the Final 4. Baylor is clearly better and Tech is as well although they were a decent program during Bobby Knight's tenure. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Catdaddyhorn

[UTDD 362]

1 hour ago, MotownHorn said:

Yep. 

One is empirically one of the worst NCAA tournament coaches of all time according to 538

And the other is not

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/

"And at the other end of the spectrum, some active coaches have added this month to their less-than-stellar tourney marks. Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)"

On this specific metric, two names that completely matched my gut reaction (fair or not) before looking at it were Calipari (very high) and Self (very low).  

I have to add that seeing Izzo at #2 is something I actually should have guessed.

Edited February 25, 2021 by UTDD
Izzo

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

Uh oh.  Now you've done it.

we've dissected that piece no less than five times between here and shaggy, and i have zero interest in having that same discussion all over again, particularly not with this obsessive weirdo who keeps coming after me with ad hominem disses about Rick Barnes every single day. 

FTR- Barnes is a totally average tourney coach with at most two "bad" tournament losses. 90% of his losses as a favored seed are in 4/5 and 8/9 games. He pretty much always plays to his seed.

Edited February 25, 2021 by shadow_operative

[dogbreath 434]

6 hours ago, Js1 said:

The Big 12 is def tougher now - both from a coaching standpoint and format.  Shaka's entire tenure has been the double round robin and having to play KU and WV twice, whereas Barnes had the majority of his Texas tenure with the North/South split.  Baylor, OU and Tech are better now than they were when Barnes was here.  ISU, OSU and KSU are worse.  CU/TCU is a push.  WV is better than A&M.   Kansas is Kansas. 

Hmm.  Aughts (2000-2009) v. Tens (2010-2019).  Going by results and not by seeding. 

12 points for winning it all.

10 points for finalist.

8 points for final four.

6 points for Elite Eight.

4 points for Sweet 16. 

2 points for 32.

1 point for making tourney. 

1/2 point for winning NIT.

 

Aughts (2000-2009):  

KU: Roy/Self = 54 pts 

OU: Sampson/Capel = 28 pts

UT: Barnes = 37 pts

ISU: Eustachy/Morgan/McDermott = 9 pts

OSU: Sutton/Sutton/Ford = 25 pts

BU: Bliss/Drew = 1 pt

TT: Dickey/Knight/Knight = 8 pts

KSU: Asbury/Wooldridge/Huggins/Martin = 2 pts

Mizzou: Snyder/Watkins/Anderson = 17 pts

A&M: Watkins/Gillispie/Turgeon = 10 pts

CU: Patton/Bzdelik = 1 pt

NU: Nee/Coller/Sadler = 0 pts

 

(Tens) (2010-2019)

KU: Self = 46 pts

OU: Capel/Kruger = 21 pts

UT: Barnes/Smart = 8.5 pts

ISU: Hoiberg/Prohm = 15 pts

OSU: Ford/Underwood/Boynton = 5 pts

BU: Drew = 23.5 pts

TT: Knight/Gillispie/Walker/Smith/Beard = 17 pts

KSU: Martin/Weber = 20 pts

Mizzou: Haith (2010-2012) = 5 pts

WV: Huggins (2013-2019) = 13 pts

A&M: Turgeon/Kennedy (2010-2012) = 4 pts

CU: Bzdelik/Boyle (2010-2011) = 0 pts

NU: Sadler (2010-2011) = 0 pts

TCU: Johnson/Dixon (2013-2019) = 1.5 pts

 

Aughts 192 - Tens 179.5. 

Big takeaways:

Can't say Texas and Baylor switched, but the differentials are really close:  UT 37-8.5=28.5.  BU 23.5-1=22.5.  

TT's point were from last two years due to being a finalist and EE.

Mizzou and WV roughly the same.  A&M ain't the right comp.

OSU way better under Sutton.

OU slightly better under Sampson.

KSU way better under Martin/Weber. Basically it was two EE runs, but more consistent tournament appearances.

I thought ISU was better in both decades, but outside of some really good teams, not so much.

3 B12 teams won the NIT in the Tens.  All Texas teams.  Let's add some cattle to that hat.

 

Used this website to make calculations. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-12/ncaa.html

 

 

 

[Slacks 6821]

So... I don't watch CBB as much as I used to... Somebody tell me, has Shaka had NBA talent like Rick had at the end of his tenure.

I used to complain that Rick underperformed the talent and couldn't get them to rebound or make a FT to save a game... But I don't know if he could have changed that much.

I haven't seen or heard of anywhere near the level of players in the last six years. I know it took Rick a while to get that level of player consistently.

I'm not trying to compare recruiting ability, just curious as to where the board sees the talent level. Basketball is the sport where talent generally wins, and I don't recall Texas having to talent. I think this season is probably the best talent we've had under Shaka, yes?