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Texas Re-Opening Announced


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15 hours ago, Xian said:

Numbers jumped today in Galveston county also. Right after it came out the governor has overridden the city and the beaches will also open Friday. 
 

so much for local control. What a fucking shit show 

Well, it's exactly why Chapter 418 is written the way it is.  It recognizes that disasters can be different from one place to the next.  

I'm really shocked that nobody on a local level has decided to test this.  Because what Abbott is doing is not only bad public policy, it's also plainly illegal.

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49 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Well, it's exactly why Chapter 418 is written the way it is.  It recognizes that disasters can be different from one place to the next.  

I'm really shocked that nobody on a local level has decided to test this.  Because what Abbott is doing is not only bad public policy, it's also plainly illegal.

I agree with your reading of 418. What is your level of confidence that our SC wouldn't find a new gubernatorial power, because GOP?

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2 minutes ago, softlynow said:

I agree with your reading of 418. What is your level of confidence that our SC wouldn't find a new gubernatorial power, because GOP?

Middling.  I will observe that looking at SCOTX's Emergency Orders, they've been very cautious and really rather progressive during this (staying all eviction proceedings and barring garnishments).  But I think most telling is that they have been very cautious about having court hearings, saying that in-person hearings shouldn't be held and leaving it to the local administrative judges to decide how to operate.

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1 hour ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Texas rushing to open up and y'all didn't even make the list 

 

 

Didn't I read that Nebraska just had a rather large jump in cases?

Florida will bear watching. How long will the theme parks stay closed? What will happen as Europe begins to recover; will international tourists want to travel to Florida just for the beach? Our neighbors travel to the panhandle area every year for a week, but they've indicated they aren't going this year.

Texas Tech and A&M plan on having students on campus in the fall, but word on the street says they told their respective departments to have contingency plans in place. Some classes will remain online and others will spend a portion in face-to-face. Since most students at the larger institutions have registered for fall (save incoming frosh), this is going to be a room assignment nightmare.

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1 hour ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Texas rushing to open up and y'all didn't even make the list 

 

 

Is this because they think the cases are lower there and therefore they will be the first to be able to get back to normal or is this where they think the titans of industry are?  I can't make heads or tails of why these particular states are on the list?  What do they do in South Carolina besides catch crabs and make volvo cars?  What do they do in Utah besides get multiple wives and teatotal?  Are we having a shortage of pot, is that why Colorado made the list?  I'm confused.

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1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

Middling.  I will observe that looking at SCOTX's Emergency Orders, they've been very cautious and really rather progressive during this (staying all eviction proceedings and barring garnishments).  But I think most telling is that they have been very cautious about having court hearings, saying that in-person hearings shouldn't be held and leaving it to the local administrative judges to decide how to operate.

That certainly weighs in favor of the straight-forward interpretation holding. But court operations do not get widespread media coverage, and the court closings are probably a relief to more folks than they are a nuisance or outright detriment, at least for now. 

However, at least a couple of those justices are hoping for a political career beyond their time on the court, and don't want to be on the wrong side of Trumpists. My gut says they would rule in favor of the plain language of those sections, but it would be close.

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19 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Texas Tech and A&M plan on having students on campus in the fall, but word on the street says they told their respective departments to have contingency plans in place. .

 

Every college/university saying they'll be open in the fall will have contingency plans in place.  If they don't, then they have a pretty poor President/Chancellor leading the campus.  

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Quote

San Antonio stay-home to be extended: New San Antonio and Bexar County stay-at-home orders will extend through May 19, with leaders saying the updated provisions are designed to ensure a high level of protection from the novel coronavirus as the area eases into Gov. Greg Abbott’s “Open Texas” plan.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/coronavirus/article/Coronavirus-updates-April-30-15221684.php

san antonio might be ready to rumble with the guvnah. 

i cannot believe we are rushing into lifting restrictions without proper data and testing.

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2 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

Every college/university saying they'll be open in the fall will have contingency plans in place.  If they don't, then they have a pretty poor President/Chancellor leading the campus.  

The good ones will actually talk to the worker bees to find out best strategies for student learning and success and keeping outbreaks from getting out of hand. The rest will be laser focused on BMD and making sure football is progressing as it should. Why not both, you ask? Well, that's a good question but there are plenty of unis out there that have forsaken their mission and it's more about "college lifestyle" than preparing students for opportunities unknown.

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There's enough proper data to know that we don't meet the requirements for Phase 1.  The daily new case numbers have been holding steady around 800+ for the whole month of April.  Our curve has not at all flattened and I expect we are about to see a rather large spike starting in a week or 10 days.

Edited by kevwun
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27 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Didn't I read that Nebraska just had a rather large jump in cases?

Florida will bear watching. How long will the theme parks stay closed? What will happen as Europe begins to recover; will international tourists want to travel to Florida just for the beach? Our neighbors travel to the panhandle area every year for a week, but they've indicated they aren't going this year.

Texas Tech and A&M plan on having students on campus in the fall, but word on the street says they told their respective departments to have contingency plans in place. Some classes will remain online and others will spend a portion in face-to-face. Since most students at the larger institutions have registered for fall (save incoming frosh), this is going to be a room assignment nightmare.

One of my largest customers manages a lot of the IT for the parks. Word is a phased opening, (25% capacity is what I'm hearing to start)  only a few rides to start, all the open air rides. The "Dark", or enclosed rides will open last. 

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One of my largest customers manages a lot of the IT for the parks. Word is a phased opening, (25% capacity is what I'm hearing to start)  only a few rides to start, all the open air rides. The "Dark", or enclosed rides will open last. 

Who would even want to go in that scenario?

Of course, I don't unserstand why anyone e would want to go to Disney World in the first place so, yeah.
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30 minutes ago, kevwun said:

There's enough proper data to know that we don't meet the requirements for Phase 1.  The daily new case numbers have been holding steady around 800+ for the whole month of April.  Our curve has not at all flattened and I expect we are about to see a rather large spike starting in a week or 10 days.

You realize case numbers holding steady, with increased testing, proves that the curve is flattening, right? 

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41 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

Every college/university saying they'll be open in the fall will have contingency plans in place.  If they don't, then they have a pretty poor President/Chancellor leading the campus.  

Seems like you could extrapolate this out to countries and governments.

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Just now, Trey3216 said:

And what I talked about earlier in this thread is happening.   Hospitals are in bad shape.

 

 

https://dailymemphian.com/section/business/article/13390/methodist-furloughs-staff?streamId=13372
 

There are several others I’ll find and link, but the shit’s borked all around.  

Yes, seeing this first hand with my business (medical device distribution).  I'd love for hospitals to start seeing patients and doing needed surgeries asap.

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8 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

That is the Lord's punishment for Mike Pence not wearing a mask.

 

3 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Lindsay Graham.

  

 

1 hour ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

] What do they do in South Carolina besides catch crabs and make volvo cars?

sen. Graham got crabs from the Volva of an unmasked man?  This is all news to me, I assure you...

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3 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

Well, it's exactly why Chapter 418 is written the way it is.  It recognizes that disasters can be different from one place to the next.  

I'm really shocked that nobody on a local level has decided to test this.  Because what Abbott is doing is not only bad public policy, it's also plainly illegal.

I think at the local level these elected judges being able to say "I did everything I could but was overruled by the governor" puts them in a strategic advantage position for re-election if this thing goes to hell and a shitload of people start dying and getting hospitalized. If miraculously the cases don't jump up then there's no political harm on anyone. None of these local municipalities and counties want to give up that ability to pass the buck to Abbott if it goes sideways. 

Hallmark of 21st century American politics. I'm doing whatever allows me to not take blame for anything. 

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I think at the local level these elected judges being able to say "I did everything I could but was overruled by the governor" puts them in a strategic advantage position for re-election if this thing goes to hell and a shitload of people start dying and getting hospitalized. If miraculously the cases don't jump up then there's no political harm on anyone. None of these local municipalities and counties want to give up that ability to pass the buck to Abbott if it goes sideways. 
Hallmark of 21st century American politics. I'm doing whatever allows me to not take blame for anything. 

This is the only rational explanation and it's very disappointing.
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1 hour ago, Wanker Bob said:

I think at the local level these elected judges being able to say "I did everything I could but was overruled by the governor" puts them in a strategic advantage position for re-election if this thing goes to hell and a shitload of people start dying and getting hospitalized. If miraculously the cases don't jump up then there's no political harm on anyone. None of these local municipalities and counties want to give up that ability to pass the buck to Abbott if it goes sideways. 

Hallmark of 21st century American politics. I'm doing whatever allows me to not take blame for anything. 

Profiles in Courage

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5 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

Well, it's exactly why Chapter 418 is written the way it is.  It recognizes that disasters can be different from one place to the next.  

I'm really shocked that nobody on a local level has decided to test this.  Because what Abbott is doing is not only bad public policy, it's also plainly illegal.

I concur. He doesn’t have the authority he is claiming he has. The lege does, but he doesn’t.

I suspect certain local officials are trying to work this out with him to avoid a confrontation and further confuse the public.

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The Texas Governor doesn’t have the authority to just walk into a county and say your law or rule is invalid. The lege can do that, and does it all the time to Austin, but the governor does not. 

The governor can regulate private business statewide if there is a statewide emergency and he wants to, but he can’t just sit there and say to a county or city your law, or ordinance or emergency order, is invalid. That requires the legislative branch to do it. 

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1 hour ago, Trey3216 said:

And what I talked about earlier in this thread is happening.   Hospitals are in bad shape.

 

 

https://dailymemphian.com/section/business/article/13390/methodist-furloughs-staff?streamId=13372
 

There are several others I’ll find and link, but the shit’s borked all around.  

I guess it's not such a good idea to subject a healthcare system to the vicissitudes of market based capitalism.

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There is a little known codicil in the Texas State Constitution that gives the Governor unlimited powers in times of state crisis. 

It's time for someone to have their foot put down for them by another person, and that foot is mine.  

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4 hours ago, softlynow said:

I agree with your reading of 418. What is your level of confidence that our SC wouldn't find a new gubernatorial power, because GOP?

I'm interested in @Ghost of LL's opinion on why it's plainly illegal?

418.018 gives the governor the same power, using the same language as 418.108 gives mayors and county judges (within their respective jurisdictions, which overlap).  I don't see anything that resolves the conflict, other than the general "weak governor" principles of the Texas Constitution.

I don't see Chapter 418 as being written to empower local government over state government.  It just recognizes that there can be a disaster of a local nature that can be dealt with by local authorities without state-level involvement.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm interested in @Ghost of LL's opinion on why it's plainly illegal?

418.018 gives the governor the same power, using the same language as 418.108 gives mayors and county judges (within their respective jurisdictions, which overlap).  I don't see anything that resolves the conflict, other than the general "weak governor" principles of the Texas Constitution.

Thanks for quoting me to tell me you’re not interested in my opinion. ;)

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2 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

And what I talked about earlier in this thread is happening.   Hospitals are in bad shape.

 

 

https://dailymemphian.com/section/business/article/13390/methodist-furloughs-staff?streamId=13372
 

There are several others I’ll find and link, but the shit’s borked all around.  

Boxes of Kleenex just went from $30 to $60

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18 minutes ago, softlynow said:

Thanks for quoting me to tell me you’re not interested in my opinion. ;)

I think I agree with the general outcome, but it's not based on the language of Chapter 418, as far as I am reading it.  GoLL never hit back on all that.

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5 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

Middling.  I will observe that looking at SCOTX's Emergency Orders, they've been very cautious and really rather progressive during this (staying all eviction proceedings and barring garnishments).  But I think most telling is that they have been very cautious about having court hearings, saying that in-person hearings shouldn't be held and leaving it to the local administrative judges to decide how to operate.

SCOTX relying on Office of Court Administration guidance; no in-person hearings until at least June 1 for now (outside of emergency action).

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17 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 

Here's the crossroads. The data says Abbott should absolutely walk this back and extend the order another 4 weeks. There's zero chance this doesn't blow up and get potentially thousands killed unless the vast majority of the population of the state stays home on their own volition. 

The worst part in my opinion of this whole thing is it gives China or Russia or whoever has the means and the motivation a perfect blueprint on how to attack America in the future. Develop a bug that's deadlier but just as contagious and enough inoculation for your people that you want to live then set it loose in this country. Our half a trillion dollar a year military will be worthless. 

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3 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

I think at the local level these elected judges being able to say "I did everything I could but was overruled by the governor" puts them in a strategic advantage position for re-election if this thing goes to hell and a shitload of people start dying and getting hospitalized. If miraculously the cases don't jump up then there's no political harm on anyone. None of these local municipalities and counties want to give up that ability to pass the buck to Abbott if it goes sideways. 

Hallmark of 21st century American politics. I'm doing whatever allows me to not take blame for anything. 

You know, I'm not saying you're entirely wrong.  But at the same time, I happen to have a job in which I work with numerous elected officials.  And I will tell you that the elected officials with whom I work legitimately care about ensuring the health and well-being of their constituency.

They may disagree with me (and with one another) about how to accomplish that.  But I find it really very rare that elected officials do things solely (or even primarily) out of a desire to give themselves "in a strategic advantage for re-election if [something] goes to hell."  They're much more of a mindset of "I'm going to do right, and I'll get reelected because what I did benefited people."

In this instance, I think it's much more of a situation of knowing that Abbott runs this state like a wannabe tyrant.  He's petty.  He's vindictive.  And he's often irrationally so.  These cities and governments are going to need financial help in the next legislative session, and Abbott will cut them off at the knees if they cross him.  And so they feel that they don't have a choice.

Now, maybe they console themselves to this fait accompli with some sense that "I'll be in good position for re-election if this thing goes to hell."  But that's an after-the-fact rationalization, not a motivation for inaction.  

And for the record, if this thing does go to hell and a shitload of people start dying and getting hospitalized, I think that calculation could change in a big hurry.  I predict that you're going to see local leaders become much less reluctant about challenging Abbott in a couple weeks as cases start to spike.

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7 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

Well, it's exactly why Chapter 418 is written the way it is.  It recognizes that disasters can be different from one place to the next.  

I'm really shocked that nobody on a local level has decided to test this.  Because what Abbott is doing is not only bad public policy, it's also plainly illegal.

San Antonio extended the stay at home until May 19

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm interested in @Ghost of LL's opinion on why it's plainly illegal?

418.018 gives the governor the same power, using the same language as 418.108 gives mayors and county judges (within their respective jurisdictions, which overlap).  I don't see anything that resolves the conflict, other than the general "weak governor" principles of the Texas Constitution.

I don't see Chapter 418 as being written to empower local government over state government.  It just recognizes that there can be a disaster of a local nature that can be dealt with by local authorities without state-level involvement.

Not Ghost of LL but I will try to address. Here is the applicable section edited for length:


 

Sec. 418.108. DECLARATION OF LOCAL DISASTER. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (e), the presiding officer of the governing body of a political subdivision may declare a local state of disaster.

(g) The county judge or the mayor of a municipality may control ingress to and egress from a disaster area under the jurisdiction and authority of the county judge or mayor and control the movement of persons and the occupancy of premises in that area.

This is the exact same language that gives Governor Abbot to declare a statewide disaster and in which he is claiming the ability to “reopen Texas.” There is nothing in either section that says the governor’s authority trumps the local authorities. There is no law, case or anything else that says that. And that is what Abbot is trying to say, that his authority trumps that of the local authorities. There is no law or basis for that.  Just like Trump can’t come into Texas and overrule the State of Texas, Abbot has no authority in this matter to overrule the local counties. 

Again the legislature could trump the local authorities, but Abbot’s position as the governor gives him no authority to do that. Just like Trump has no authority to order Abbot what to do. 

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think I agree with the general outcome, but it's not based on the language of Chapter 418, as far as I am reading it.  GoLL never hit back on all that.

 

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm interested in @Ghost of LL's opinion on why it's plainly illegal?

418.018 gives the governor the same power, using the same language as 418.108 gives mayors and county judges (within their respective jurisdictions, which overlap).  I don't see anything that resolves the conflict, other than the general "weak governor" principles of the Texas Constitution.

I don't see Chapter 418 as being written to empower local government over state government.  It just recognizes that there can be a disaster of a local nature that can be dealt with by local authorities without state-level involvement.

I think I've shared my opinion.  Section 418.018 gives the governor authority to declare a statewide emergency.  But nothing in Chapter 418 (or anywhere else in law or the Constitution) gives the governor authority to declare that there is no emergency anywhere in the state.

In the absence of a declared statewide emergency under Section 418.018, we're just in the normal times.  And in the normal times, there can be local emergencies.  In that event, Section 418.108 authorizes local officials to declare a local emergency.  But nothing allows the governor to come in and second-guess local officials and say, "no--no local emergency here."

There's no conflict to resolve here.  You have two layers of concurrent--not conflicting--authority to declare a state of emergency.  But nobody has authority to declare a state of non-emergency.

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3 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

 

I think I've shared my opinion.  Section 418.018 gives the governor authority to declare a statewide emergency.  But nothing in Chapter 418 (or anywhere else in law or the Constitution) gives the governor authority to declare that there is no emergency anywhere in the state.

In the absence of a declared statewide emergency under Section 418.018, we're just in the normal times.  And in the normal times, there can be local emergencies.  In that event, Section 418.108 authorizes local officials to declare a local emergency.  But nothing allows the governor to come in and second-guess local officials and say, "no--no local emergency here."

There's no conflict to resolve here.  You have two layers of concurrent--not conflicting--authority to declare a state of emergency.  But nobody has authority to declare a state of non-emergency.

Said it better than I did. 

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Here is the key provision found at the very end of his order:

 

I hereby suspend Sections 418.1015(b) and 418.108 of the Texas Government Code, Chapter 81, Subchapter E of the Texas Health and Safety Code, and any other relevant statutes, to the extent necessary to ensure that local officials do not impose restrictions inconsistent with this executive order, provided that local officials may enforce this executive order as well as local restrictions that are consistent with this executive order.

 

Someone tell me where he gets the authority to do that, suspending a law passed by the lege, and I will be satisfied he is able to do what he is doing. He obviously thought it important enough to say it. 

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58 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

You know, I'm not saying you're entirely wrong.  But at the same time, I happen to have a job in which I work with numerous elected officials.  And I will tell you that the elected officials with whom I work legitimately care about ensuring the health and well-being of their constituency.

They may disagree with me (and with one another) about how to accomplish that.  But I find it really very rare that elected officials do things solely (or even primarily) out of a desire to give themselves "in a strategic advantage for re-election if [something] goes to hell."  They're much more of a mindset of "I'm going to do right, and I'll get reelected because what I did benefited people."

In this instance, I think it's much more of a situation of knowing that Abbott runs this state like a wannabe tyrant.  He's petty.  He's vindictive.  And he's often irrationally so.  These cities and governments are going to need financial help in the next legislative session, and Abbott will cut them off at the knees if they cross him.  And so they feel that they don't have a choice.

Now, maybe they console themselves to this fait accompli with some sense that "I'll be in good position for re-election if this thing goes to hell."  But that's an after-the-fact rationalization, not a motivation for inaction.  

And for the record, if this thing does go to hell and a shitload of people start dying and getting hospitalized, I think that calculation could change in a big hurry.  I predict that you're going to see local leaders become much less reluctant about challenging Abbott in a couple weeks as cases start to spike.

   That sounds reasonable. I'm sure it's a combination of reasons but nevertheless we bought the ticket and are on the guinea pig ride starting tomorrow. 

God speed

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53 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Because he failed to cite that authority for doing that. 

I'm not saying he has authority to do that granted by 418.  That particular language seems to put an unnecessary authoritarian point on it, in keeping with the times.  

But spin it a different way.  Lets say mayors say public buildings can be open from 9 to 5 at 50% occupancy and the governor says they can be open 8 to 6 at 25% occupancy, under the authority of 418.108 and 418.018, respectively.  Clearly a conflict.  Who "trumps"?

Also, while I don't think he has any authority to suspend sections of Chapter 418, or to "undeclare" or terminate a locally declared emergency, he does have the ability to:  "control the movement of persons and the occupancy of premises in the area," coextensive with mayors and county judges.

While his "suspension" seems ultra vires, I don't think the statute otherwise provides an answer.  A less authoritarian way of doing it, and one less clearly ultra vires, would be to have Paxton declare that his declaration of a state emergency and control of persons and premises supersedes local declarations and rules or regulations.

 

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Also, I think GoLL's argument that Abbot is "undeclaring" a disaster goes too far.  

He's issued a shitpile of executive orders, many of which are probably beyond his power, but he has not terminated his disaster declaration of March 12 (he renewed it for 30 days on April 13).  

The way I look at it, he's ordering DIFFERENT movement of persons and occupancy of premises from local authorities, not undeclaring the disaster.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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24 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not saying he has authority to do that granted by 418.  That particular language seems to put an unnecessary authoritarian point on it, in keeping with the times.  

But spin it a different way.  Lets say mayors say public buildings can be open from 9 to 5 at 50% occupancy and the governor says they can be open 8 to 6 at 25% occupancy, under the authority of 418.108 and 418.018, respectively.  Clearly a conflict.  Who "trumps"?

Also, while I don't think he has any authority to suspend sections of Chapter 418, or to "undeclare" or terminate a locally declared emergency, he does have the ability to:  "control the movement of persons and the occupancy of premises in the area," coextensive with mayors and county judges.

While his "suspension" seems ultra vires, I don't think the statute otherwise provides an answer.  A less authoritarian way of doing it, and one less clearly ultra vires, would be to have Paxton declare that his declaration of a state emergency and control of persons and premises supersedes local declarations and rules or regulations.

 

It is an interesting and unprecedented question, so there is no easy answer.

But the most recent order from the governor seems to just be about asserting MY authority over local government instead of protecting people in the event of a disaster, which seems to me to not be the intent of an emergency disaster statute. Unless one wants to argue that putting people back to work (by indirectly forcing them) is somehow the intent of such a statute.

Edited by JimmyJames
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