Texas Re-Opening Announced

[DDD Dad 14339]

Well the planes flew by but they were below my tree line. Hope the hospital workers enjoyed it.

[kevwun 15798]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

It is available on your local district clerk's website.  I don't think it changes from one county to the next.  But nonetheless, Here is Dallas County's.

It depends on how the County handles elections.  Could also be the County Clerk or Elections Office.

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Well the planes flew by but they were below my tree line. Hope the hospital workers enjoyed it.

We got a good look at them for about 3 seconds.  They were flying very low.

[gmr548 16580]

I am FAR from an Abbott fan -- I think he's been beyond disappointing, has displayed petty tyrant tendencies, and has gleefully become a Trump sycophant.
All of that said....we were going to do a phased-in reopening no matter what, no matter who was governor.  And I think it's generally the right thing to do.  I have some issues with how it's being done, how ready we are, and how basic responsibility has NOT been adequately communicated to the public, but I find the GENERAL approach reasonable.  And yes, some of the reasoning is because his "no gestapo on Bastropo" base is yelling at him, the donor class is yelling at him, etc.  But the truth remains: we can't stay in lockdown forever, because the economic and social/mental consequences will end up killing people as well.
We have to strike a balance. He may not be on target with the exact balance that I would strike, but he's not so far off the mark that I think he's being nuts/evil.
Oh, and as to the points that folks are making that "Texas started reopening, cases went up," understand that "confirmed cases" are a creature of TWO factors: 1) the number of people being infected, and 2) the number of people being tested.  We have dramatically increased the number of people being tested.  So of course the number of "confirmed cases" will go up.  We do not yet know if we're seeing a material increase in infections.  I'm sure we will see some - it's a natural consequence of increased human contact.  But "more cases" isn't a bad thing in and of itself.  In this circumstance, it's "more cases to a level that we see spikes that threaten the hospital system" that we have to look for.  The numbers to watch are the numbers hospitalized, in ICU, and deaths.
So, in summary, just because Abbott is a truly shitty, disappointing governor, doesn't mean that he got this all wrong.

The approach of a phased reopening based on data, with appropriate mitigation infrastructure and policy, and being willing to pull back if things get worse is reasonable. I don't dispute that. Do have an impression that's actually what's happening?

[Brisketexan 105158]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

The approach of a phased reopening based on data, with appropriate mitigation infrastructure and policy, and being willing to pull back if things get worse is reasonable. I don't dispute that. Do have an impression that's actually what's happening?

Is it being done the WAY I would do it?  No.  But I'm thinking of this in terms of segments along the spectrum of 33% each.  33% on one end is "keeping the lockdown way too strict, too long."  33% on the other end is "going back to normal or damned near normal."  Both of those are problematic.  The 33% in the middle is the spectrum of "moderated relaxing of restrictions."  Abbott may be closer to the "going back to normal" end that I'd like, but I'm a grown-ass man, and I learned long ago that few policy decisions will be made perfectly, and on-bullseye with what I think should be done.  I see the Abbott plan as within the middle third.  Again, far from perfect, and sloppy in many respects.  But not extremely reckless.  What is happening is some semblance of what you're describing in the quoted text.  That's all I'm getting at.

[DixonHur 11340]

26 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Strict liability.  If you are cited and convicted for not wearing a mask on a particular day, and a person who had contact with you on that day comes down with COVID, you are strictly liable (in a civil action) for causing their illness.  It creates a legal presumption that you gave it to them. Takes away the proof problem.  And creates a strong incentive to wear your damn mask.

 

I guess I just don't see how that works in practice.  People can't be expected to know everyone they pass by in the street, nor would they necessarily know if the non-mask wearer has been cited.  Hell, the sick person isn't even likely to know exactly when they got infected, so how do they even file a civil case?

Not trying to be obtuse, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not up on how all this would work.  I'd think you'd just want to make it simple.  A substantial fine for the 1st offense, and perhaps after 3 strikes you go to jail.

[kevwun 15798]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Is it being done the WAY I would do it?  No.  But I'm thinking of this in terms of segments along the spectrum of 33% each.  33% on one end is "keeping the lockdown way too strict, too long."  33% on the other end is "going back to normal or damned near normal."  Both of those are problematic.  The 33% in the middle is the spectrum of "moderated relaxing of restrictions."  Abbott may be closer to the "going back to normal" end that I'd like, but I'm a grown-ass man, and I learned long ago that few policy decisions will be made perfectly, and on-bullseye with what I think should be done.  I see the Abbott plan as within the middle third.  Again, far from perfect, and sloppy in many respects.  But not extremely reckless.  What is happening is some semblance of what you're describing in the quoted text.  That's all I'm getting at.

There isn't a plan.  He'll get talked in to opening things up even faster tomorrow when he's in Washington with Trump.

[SubliminalHorn 6806]

32 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Well the planes flew by but they were below my tree line. Hope the hospital workers enjoyed it.

We were on the roof of our parking garage at our apartments right near the Fort Worth medical district and they flew right over us. It was pretty badass. 

[conVINCEd 21469]

6 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I guess I just don't see how that works in practice.  People can't be expected to know everyone they pass by in the street, nor would they necessarily know if the non-mask wearer has been cited.  Hell, the sick person isn't even likely to know exactly when they got infected, so how do they even file a civil case?

Not trying to be obtuse, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not up on how all this would work.  I'd think you'd just want to make it simple.  A substantial fine for the 1st offense, and perhaps after 3 strikes you go to jail.

I’m in favor of caning, but I realize that is probably a minority opinion.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

11 minutes ago, kevwun said:

There isn't a plan.  He'll get talked in to opening things up even faster tomorrow when he's in Washington with Trump.

...and then when we spike he'll get thrown under the bus like Kemp.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Cities, counties and the state do not want to get into the business of arresting them. 

Vigilante justice works too

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

My problem with Abbott is that he isn't being very open about his criteria for reopening and is willing to change, at a moment's notice, past indicators.

Take the criteria that we don't want to overwhelm the hospital systems.  Who isn't in agreement with this one, but it's really up to interpretation on what you want it to say. Available beds are ridiculously high at the moment.  Why? because elective surgeries have been postponed and SLOWLY starting back up. And many non-COVID patients don't want to go near a hospital at the moment. 

Available ICU beds is also an indicator. Once again what does this mean. The Texas Medical Center has set 10% of their available ICU beds for COVID 19 as their indicator. They're over that at the moment. Does that mean their overwhelmed?  they're also said they can raise the number, if needed.

Abbott is giving as little information as possible to keep his options open without looking too much like a jerk. He also seems to be willing to change all the of the levers at once, so impacts can't be measured.

[kevwun 15798]

3 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

...and then when we spike he'll get thrown under the bus like Kemp.

It's a shame his potential damages from a lawsuit against the bus company have been capped.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

8 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

...and then when we spike he'll get thrown rolled under the bus like Kemp.

Fify

[NameAlreadyInUse 5114]

16 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I hope you are wrong. I’m prepared to believe I’m overly naive and you are right, but I will need to see it first. 

No getstapo in bastropo ring any bells for you?

[tantric superman 4667]

57 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Well the planes flew by but they were below my tree line. Hope the hospital workers enjoyed it.

Kid had awesome view (smoke!)  from rooftop (Fitzhugh and Central).  Other kid had awesome view from GB and 75.  My view was terrible (75 and Arapaho).

[Nivek 16945]

Fucking lawyers...

[gmr548 16580]

Is it being done the WAY I would do it?  No.  But I'm thinking of this in terms of segments along the spectrum of 33% each.  33% on one end is "keeping the lockdown way too strict, too long."  33% on the other end is "going back to normal or damned near normal."  Both of those are problematic.  The 33% in the middle is the spectrum of "moderated relaxing of restrictions."  Abbott may be closer to the "going back to normal" end that I'd like, but I'm a grown-ass man, and I learned long ago that few policy decisions will be made perfectly, and on-bullseye with what I think should be done.  I see the Abbott plan as within the middle third.  Again, far from perfect, and sloppy in many respects.  But not extremely reckless.  What is happening is some semblance of what you're describing in the quoted text.  That's all I'm getting at.

I think we fundamentally disagree on intent. I believe the phases are arbitrary and for show. Nothing could happen, short of Trump impulsively changing course on the subject, that could stop Phase II from kicking in on May 18. And nothing will stop Phase III at whatever date that's set for. It's a phased plan, sure, but it's bare bones.

I don't see a reason, given Abbott's record and the lack of transparency from his office on this, to believe it's any more than a shallow attempt to save face while capitulating to the base and the donors.

I'd love to be wrong because I know the man's not an idiot. He's not Trump or Dan Patrick who were born with rocks for brains. It's why I loathe him perhaps even more. He knows what he's doing. He's making a short term political calculation. I'm not going to give him credit for half assing something this critical.

[TwiceHorn 31497]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I am FAR from an Abbott fan -- I think he's been beyond disappointing, has displayed petty tyrant tendencies, and has gleefully become a Trump sycophant.

All of that said....we were going to do a phased-in reopening no matter what, no matter who was governor.  And I think it's generally the right thing to do.  I have some issues with how it's being done, how ready we are, and how basic responsibility has NOT been adequately communicated to the public, but I find the GENERAL approach reasonable.  And yes, some of the reasoning is because his "no gestapo on Bastropo" base is yelling at him, the donor class is yelling at him, etc.  But the truth remains: we can't stay in lockdown forever, because the economic and social/mental consequences will end up killing people as well.

We have to strike a balance. He may not be on target with the exact balance that I would strike, but he's not so far off the mark that I think he's being nuts/evil.

Oh, and as to the points that folks are making that "Texas started reopening, cases went up," understand that "confirmed cases" are a creature of TWO factors: 1) the number of people being infected, and 2) the number of people being tested.  We have dramatically increased the number of people being tested.  So of course the number of "confirmed cases" will go up.  We do not yet know if we're seeing a material increase in infections.  I'm sure we will see some - it's a natural consequence of increased human contact.  But "more cases" isn't a bad thing in and of itself.  In this circumstance, it's "more cases to a level that we see spikes that threaten the hospital system" that we have to look for.  The numbers to watch are the numbers hospitalized, in ICU, and deaths.

So, in summary, just because Abbott is a truly shitty, disappointing governor, doesn't mean that he got this all wrong.

Disappointing is so spot on.  Abbott has the intelligence, temperament, and experience, I think, to be a decent governor.  Particularly as compared to Perry, for example.  But he sold his soul to the GOP, as constituted.  You could see it when he was on the Supreme Court.  Quite disappointing.

Edited May 6, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

I think one thing is certain with Abbott is that there is a very low likelihood that he would ever reverse the re-opening orders regardless of the outcome.  Possibly he would stop new re-opening orders, and maybe he would encourage better behavior but he would never jump up to 50% restaurant capacity and then go back to 25.

Every step has zero going back.

[Brisketexan 105158]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

I think we fundamentally disagree on intent. I believe the phases are arbitrary and for show. Nothing could happen, short of Trump impulsively changing course on the subject, that could stop Phase II from kicking in on May 18. And nothing will stop Phase III at whatever date that's set for. It's a phased plan, sure, but it's bare bones.

I don't see a reason, given Abbott's record and the lack of transparency from his office on this, to believe it's any more than a shallow attempt to save face while capitulating to the base and the donors.

I'd love to be wrong because I know the man's not an idiot. He's not Trump or Dan Patrick who were born with rocks for brains. It's why I loathe him perhaps even more. He knows what he's doing. He's making a short term political calculation. I'm not going to give him credit for half assing something this critical.

And he's not Trump - he's not dumb.  I think he's smart enough to know that if the numbers explode, it will bite him in the ass.  Also, I get and see a lot of briefings/updates from various entities working with the governor's office, and the office IS getting input from objective sources and has made adjustments based on that.  Again, not perfect, and again, not free from influence of the wrong type of voices, but there is actual work of governance happening over there.

[Brisketexan 105158]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Disappointing is so spot on.  Abbott has the intelligence, temperament, and experience, I think, to be a decent governor.  But he sold his soul to the GOP, as constituted.  You could see it when he was on the Supreme Court.  Quite disappointing.

So much this.  The soul-selling to the GOP (which ended up morphing into soul-selling to Trumpism) has cost him dearly.  All the intelligence and ability in the world don't matter much if you don't have integrity and at least a little courage.  He had the potential to be a decent governor.  He has CHOSEN not to be.

[4th&Five 41558]

He doesn't have ALL the ability in the world.

[Brisketexan 105158]

2 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

He doesn't have ALL the ability in the world.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

3 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

He doesn't have ALL the ability in the world.

[Pancho 44858]

Why are hot wheels and Paxton releasing official statements about the hair lady who got sent to jail in Dallas?  

[tchookem 3900]

I am FAR from an Abbott fan -- I think he's been beyond disappointing, has displayed petty tyrant tendencies, and has gleefully become a Trump sycophant.

All of that said....we were going to do a phased-in reopening no matter what, no matter who was governor.  And I think it's generally the right thing to do.  I have some issues with how it's being done, how ready we are, and how basic responsibility has NOT been adequately communicated to the public, but I find the GENERAL approach reasonable.  And yes, some of the reasoning is because his "no gestapo on Bastropo" base is yelling at him, the donor class is yelling at him, etc.  But the truth remains: we can't stay in lockdown forever, because the economic and social/mental consequences will end up killing people as well.

We have to strike a balance. He may not be on target with the exact balance that I would strike, but he's not so far off the mark that I think he's being nuts/evil.

Oh, and as to the points that folks are making that "Texas started reopening, cases went up," understand that "confirmed cases" are a creature of TWO factors: 1) the number of people being infected, and 2) the number of people being tested.  We have dramatically increased the number of people being tested.  So of course the number of "confirmed cases" will go up.  We do not yet know if we're seeing a material increase in infections.  I'm sure we will see some - it's a natural consequence of increased human contact.  But "more cases" isn't a bad thing in and of itself.  In this circumstance, it's "more cases to a level that we see spikes that threaten the hospital system" that we have to look for.  The numbers to watch are the numbers hospitalized, in ICU, and deaths.

So, in summary, just because Abbott is a truly shitty, disappointing governor, doesn't mean that he got this all wrong.

Not one thing I can disagree with here. I just want everything laid out, specifically when will we know measures are working and can be relaxed, but more importantly when will we know that aren't working? I know that's a downer, but I think it needs to be addressed in the open.

 

I also know what I'm about to say is cynical (I think some cynicism it's understandable), but I'm worried we aren't getting that information because he can't stand by it.

 

EDIT: You addressed a lot of this above.

 

[Brisketexan 105158]

On the point of balancing things out, here's a policy decision most of us remember well, and probably agreed with: the increase of the highway speed limit from 55 to 65.

A 2006 study found this:

Quote

The NCHRP study found that higher speed limits were associated with an increased likelihood of deaths and incapacitating injuries. It found that increasing a speed limit from 55 to 65 mph on an "average" section of high speed road resulted in about a 3% increase in the total number of crashes and a 24% increase in the likelihood that a vehicle occupant would be fatally injured. This increased crash rate would yield a 28% increase in the number of fatalities following the speed limit increase.

Sure, the numbers might move either direction.  And for sure, subsequent improvements in vehicle safety (better crashworthiness and airbags, etc.) have helped reduce fatalities.  But all other things being equal, an increase in speed limit means more crashes and more deaths.  And it follows that a decrease means fewer crashes and fewer deaths.

If we were to take a "one death is one too many" approach, we'd have a uniform speed limit of 15 mph or so.  If we were to take a "freedom liberty and FUCK YEEEWW!" approach, we'd surely see a shitload more deaths.  Instead, we struck a balance, and decided on 65 mph as the right balance of commerce, convenience, and risk.  Note that in some areas, we've upped it to 75 and even 80.  In others, we've kept it at 55.  One can make a policy argument in either direction, for sure - very few policies hit the bullseye from every single person's perspective.  But I think almost all reasonable minds would agree that 65 is at least within "the zone of reasonableness."

Our goal here, with COVID-19, should be a path forward within the zone of reasonableness.  That's one point of argument -- are we moving forward within that zone.  If you think we aren't, then that's your argument.  If you think we are, but we are too far one way or the other, then THAT'S your argument.  I'm just trying to nail things down here to define the conversation and goals.

For example, I think we're in the zone of reasonableness, BUT, I have serious concerns about the limited guidance/rules on masks.  And I have serious concerns about how we will be monitoring local hospitalization rates and possibly dialing back some of the reopening measures if need be (that said, I can also see not creating firm processes/protocols for that, because they can be limiting and take away needed flexibility -- again, there's a balance to be struck).

[TwiceHorn 31497]

26 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Why are hot wheels and Paxton releasing official statements about the hair lady who got sent to jail in Dallas?  

You know the answer to that.

What's interesting, though, is that she hasn't been arrested and jailed in a criminal sense.

She was cited (given a ticket) with a $1000 fine.  Then she was sued civilly and ordered to close.  She refused and was held in contempt by the civil court for disregarding its order and the contempt remedy was 7 days in jail, probably that could be terminated simply by closing the salon.  The alternative to jailing would have been to set a daily fine for every day she remained open, which would have made her situation worse.  And that would be enforceable by further contempt proceedings.

Given that both are lawyers, they know the drill and the suggestion that less punitive measures could be employed is disingenuous.  I suppose you could argue that the city shouldn't have sued her or tried to enforce the injunction.  Or you could argue that the fine is excessive.  But when someone gets sued and continues to ignore court orders, they're going to jail.  Period.

Edited May 6, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[babysdaddy 2725]

That Becky is just a grandstanding Karen.  Stupid bish

[Born to Run 6569]

Why are hot wheels and Paxton releasing official statements about the hair lady who got sent to jail in Dallas?  

Why did he decide to open up salons a few days after he released his own plan?
With no directives or rules in place? The state licensing board doesn't even have a plan. Shops are basically doing whatever they want.

Because some white lady in Dallas broke the law and went to jail and is now a hero to his base.

[yoladu 4094]

i think most would agree that the reopening of Texas and the reopening efforts in most states has very little regard to the current status of Covid-19 cases or Covid-19 deaths.

The essential attitude/argument is : "Shelter in place is ruining the economy. Shit needed to be reopened. We can't wait for proper testing, contact tracing or a vaccine. We'll deal with whatever sickness and death comes with the re-opening."

Every state ignored the Federal Guidelines for re-opening which was mostly a science driven, fact based set of public safety guidelines.

Other countries are opening up, but they are way better prepared. We are going to see a lot more deaths i am afraid.

Edited May 6, 2020 by yoladu

[gmr548 16580]

And he's not Trump - he's not dumb.  I think he's smart enough to know that if the numbers explode, it will bite him in the ass.  Also, I get and see a lot of briefings/updates from various entities working with the governor's office, and the office IS getting input from objective sources and has made adjustments based on that.  Again, not perfect, and again, not free from influence of the wrong type of voices, but there is actual work of governance happening over there.

No, he's not Trump and he's not dumb. But he continues to act like it. See the hair lady thing.

I obviously can't refute your anecdote about his office. I'm skeptical of that given the lack of transparency. Maybe he's afraid to broadcast that to Trumpkin hordes. Maybe the comment above is correct, that he knows he can't walk back specific figures.

We'll see how it plays out. My bet would be that fealty to Trump is priority one, two, and three. Which isn't a reopening plan at all. Hopefully we don't even see that tested because everything works out.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

2 minutes ago, yoladu said:

i think most would agree that the reopening of Texas and the reopening efforts in most states has very little regard to the current status of Covid-19 cases or Covid-19 deaths.

The essential attitude/argument is : "Shelter in place is ruining the economy. Shit needed to be reopened. We can't wait for proper testing, contact tracing or a vaccine. We'll deal with whatever sickness and death comes with the re-opening."

Every state ignored the Federal Guidelines for re-opening which was mostly a science driven, fact based, public safety driven set of guidelines.

Other countries are opening up, but they are way better prepared. We are going to see a lot more deaths i am afraid.

Yes.  

Basically some politicians are going with the attitude that the scientists were given a reasonable amount of time and that time is now over. 

Now I don't think reopening restaurants are going to accomplish much in terms of helping those restaurants. Most will not be able to cover the full operating expenses even if you allowed 100% usage. Why? Because enough people don't have the money nor the desire to go sit in a restaurant. Sure, a one-off restaurant can succeed but for an restaurant that was barely making it, or sorta making it, they shouldn't waste their time opening back up. 

[TwiceHorn 31497]

33 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

Why did he decide to open up salons a few days after he released his own plan?
With no directives or rules in place? The state licensing board doesn't even have a plan. Shops are basically doing whatever they want.

Because some white lady in Dallas broke the law and went to jail and is now a hero to his base.

Well, salons are supposed to maintain six foot spacing.  https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-issues-executive-order-to-expand-openings-of-certain-businesses-and-activities

[hayden_horn 11362]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, salons are supposed to maintain six foot spacing.  https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-issues-executive-order-to-expand-openings-of-certain-businesses-and-activities

Quote

Individuals are encouraged to wear appropriate face coverings, but no jurisdiction can impose a civil or criminal penalty for failure to wear a face covering.  Nothing in this executive order or the DSHS minimum standards precludes requiring a customer wishing to obtain services to follow additional hygiene measures. 

[TwiceHorn 31497]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

It's political grandstanding, but I guess it could be a little bit worse.

[hayden_horn 11362]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's political grandstanding, but I guess it could be a little bit worse.

yeah, i wasn't necessarily taking issue with your point, but just illustrating that the good governor does not seem too interested in common sense measures. he's also sort of flying right past reasonableness in his hurry to reopen texas, without regard for the spreading of covid. 

like brisket, i sympathize with the desire to open up the economy. but we are doing so at what seems to be great peril. i guess it could be worse, but not by much, imo. we are in a hurry to get past this thing whilst in the fucking middle of it. 

[Smax 3800]

https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/06/texas-gov-greg-abbott-reportedly-says-in-recorded-phone-call-that-reopening-state-will-increase-coronavirus-spread/

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

2 minutes ago, Smax said:

https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/06/texas-gov-greg-abbott-reportedly-says-in-recorded-phone-call-that-reopening-state-will-increase-coronavirus-spread/

 

fuck you, ironsides

[Born to Run 6569]

34 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, salons are supposed to maintain six foot spacing.  https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-issues-executive-order-to-expand-openings-of-certain-businesses-and-activities

That's all the directive from a state the size of Texas. Other states are mandating lots of measures like requiring mask and disposable capes.

Texas? Nah. Plop down in this chair, here's a cape 20 people have drooled on today.
 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Born to Run

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2678]

Abbott has always sucked, from long before Trump. Typical corporatist Texas Repub, only he's also a "true believer" religious bitch. 

[DanTheHorn 4935]

27 minutes ago, Smax said:

https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/05/06/texas-gov-greg-abbott-reportedly-says-in-recorded-phone-call-that-reopening-state-will-increase-coronavirus-spread/

 

I am just glad that he spoke like a Longhorn and stated fact, safety and admitted it was mathematically impossible to go to zero. He did not state aggy like dumbassery (i.e. trumpkin) were things will go away like magic. Publicly he can't say these things because the idiots will revolt.

Edited May 6, 2020 by DanTheHorn

[Wanker Bob 379]

4 hours ago, Pig Bellmont said:

1-2% not following mask rules would be better than 30%. You’re never going to have perfect enforcement, but we should implement a policy that’s more likely to get the desired result 

In collin county what I've observed at least among the White, Hispanic, and Black populations it's more like 3 to 10 percent wearing masks. Among the Asian population it's about 80 to 90 percent wearing masks. 

I doubt statewide is anywhere near 30% people wearing masks. If he made the law on mandatory masks and flipped it to seventy to eighty percent of people wore masks, if for no other reason than to avoid a $500 fine, we could probably reopen a lot more and keep the medical system safe. It's sheer stupidity at this point. 

[PsychMike 1552]

15 minutes ago, DanTheHorn said:

I am just glad that he spoke like a Longhorn and stated fact, safety and admitted it was mathematically impossible to go to zero. He did not state aggy like dumbassery (i.e. trumpkin) were things will go away like magic. Publicly he can't say these things because the idiots will revolt.

I get that, but I thought he set up the zero argument like a straw man, intended to keep people from criticizing an important (hypothetical) spike in transmission rates rather than what we would hope to achieve: maintain flat curve or even begin regression.

[Wulaw Horn 19112]

3 hours ago, tchookem said:

Not one thing I can disagree with here. I just want everything laid out, specifically when will we know measures are working and can be relaxed, but more importantly when will we know that aren't working? I know that's a downer, but I think it needs to be addressed in the open.

 

I also know what I'm about to say is cynical (I think some cynicism it's understandable), but I'm worried we aren't getting that information because he can't stand by it.

 

EDIT: You addressed a lot of this above.

 

I’m betting we are philosophically apart in reopen or not to reopen (I’m team open it all up) but I have absolutely nothing to disagree with as far as what you’ve stated. I think it’s a massive issue with how everyone, in every state is dealing with this. The mostly blue states don’t seem to want to set a metric not make an argument or justification for when to reopen. The red states don’t want to lay out guidance for what might cause a reopening to be walked back. 

This is a society wide problem (duh it’s a pandemic) and we aren’t having a national conversation about why we are shut down, when we will not be shut down or what we need to see to stay open on the other side. 

I don’t know if it’s cyncial or statism (we can’t handle the conversation as a populis, or I really like all this new executive authority) but it sucks that we haven’t done anything as a populous to work through how we go about dealing with this. 

If I’m on the minority side )which I suspect I am right now, but suspect I wouldn’t be in July) I’m fine with that, but let’s have that conversation as a society. 

[wildcat09 29355]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m betting we are philosophically apart in reopen or not to reopen (I’m team open it all up) but I have absolutely nothing to disagree with as far as what you’ve stated. I think it’s a massive issue with how everyone, in every state is dealing with this. The mostly blue states don’t seem to want to set a metric not make an argument or justification for when to reopen. The red states don’t want to lay out guidance for what might cause a reopening to be walked back. 

This is a society wide problem (duh it’s a pandemic) and we aren’t having a national conversation about why we are shut down, when we will not be shut down or what we need to see to stay open on the other side. 

I don’t know if it’s cyncial or statism (we can’t handle the conversation as a populis, or I really like all this new executive authority) but it sucks that we haven’t done anything as a populous to work through how we go about dealing with this. 

If I’m on the minority side )which I suspect I am right now, but suspect I wouldn’t be in July) I’m fine with that, but let’s have that conversation as a society. 

Not really sure what all of this "let's have a conversation" is supposed to mean. We're a republic because we're larger than a village and thus have too many people to make direct democracy work. So, we elect a bunch of people who are supposed to figure out what to do in situations like this. They're supposed to have personnel and protocols in place to weigh the costs and benefits of various alternatives and determine the best course of action.  But nearly every place Republicans are in charge, they've largely decided to wing it. To the extent they really care about anything, they've been motivated by helping businesses, but they don't even really want to think through what would help businesses. It's just too much work for them and apparently thinking hurts their brains, so they just decided to go with a shitload of wishful thinking. 

The answer to the problem wasn't going to be easy, but it was always simple: Lock down for a time, use that time to surge hospital capacity, the production of necessary supplies and equipment, and test and trace capabilities, and develop effective logistics to ensure that everything gets delivered to those who need it. While locked down, the government could backstop everything: suspend mortgages and rent, guarantee payroll, etc. A real testing and tracing system would give people confidence that, when things re-opened, the risk of going back out in the world would be minimal and more federal aid at that point would've been unnecessary.

Of course, that all would have required competent messaging from our officials explaining why we need to lock down and what that time will give us the opportunity to do, and real diligence from government officials at all levels to make sure all that shit got done. However, Republican officials in most states are simply incapable of doing anything with competence and the ones that are capable of competence recognize that actually doing their job competently would put the lie to their decades of propaganda about how government can't do anything right. So this is what we got. The closest we've come to accomplishing any of what we needed to do while locked down is that we've ramped up hospital capacity (though it's not clear if we've done enough) and established a black market by which cities, states, and hospitals can acquire a fraction of the supplies they need at extortionate costs, which go into the pockets of politically connected GOP donors. There's been no real effort to establish a capable testing and tracing system that would allow us to safely re-open in phases. You still can't find any fucking hand sanitizer on store shelves. 

Nevertheless, we're trying to YOLO this shit and using the threat of cutting off unemployment benefits to force retail and service workers back to jobs in dangerous conditions, in the hope that business will just magically return to normal for everyone if we pretend that it's all done. But very few people are actually going to pretend. Many of us are going to stay in our homes most to all of the time. So those stores and restaurants that now have to re-open because they've got to pay rent are going to be incurring normal operating costs but only bringing in a fraction of the revenue they need, because most people don't feel safe to go out. And those people who do go out are going to spread covid not just among themselves but also to those we've forced back to work, many of whom live with at-risk family members, and to the medical professionals who inevitably have to treat them. So we're going to see a new spike in cases, when it happens everyone will panic again, and we'll probably end up shutting shit back down again for an indeterminate length of time. And we'll probably repeat the same stupid pattern until a vaccine is produced in sufficient quantities to inoculate most people. This slapdash bullshit doesn't help anyone because it's not a choice between keeping everyone healthy and keeping the economy healthy. If we had done it right, we could've endured a few months of pain and then recovered relatively quickly. Instead, we're going to see a death toll in the hundreds of thousands and the economy is going to sink into a depression. All because Republicans don't want anyone to realize that anything better was actually possible. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Rep to you @wildcat09. 

Matt Gaetz appearing in the House with a gas mask pretty much sealed my view of their (GOP) response but what you said is better.

 

[StassneyHorn 6616]

There is a black woman serving a 5 year sentence for illegally casting a provisional vote that didn’t even count in the totals here in Texas. But this lady gets 7 days (won’t serve any) and a 7000 dollar fine ( grifters will take care of) for possibly exposing people to a virus without safety precautions that our Governor was all set to open up at the end of the week regardless.

[Biff Tannen 45691]

So we are opening gyms and salons in the next couple of weeks?  Is that what I heard?