Texas Re-Opening Announced

[RomaVicta 30588]

1 hour ago, tchookem said:

What's going to be more sickening?

 

Watching GOP governors line up to give him the credit for "reopening" America while cases spike?

 

Or...

 

Watching his supporters believe him when he says he saved the economy AND saved us from the pandemic?

 

Seeing someone say only 160,000 people died because of me, and then seeing that person get 50 million votes to lead the country will pretty much prove yet again that the problem is the electorate. They've been shaped and herded by the hate engine, but they made that choice, too.

This is a sick place.

[High Plains Drifter 11187]

 

On 5/9/2020 at 12:03 AM, TornACL said:

One thing this has taught me is that average white people fuckin HATE being inconvenienced. 

 

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13629]

Noticed the mask-less cashier ringing up the mask-less customer ahead of me at the grocery store. After that sale was done, she put on her mask to ring up my masked self. So I've got that going for me. Which is nice.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13731]

Since we’re talking about trump and the economy, one problem that America will soon experience is loss of demand from the BRIC countries and perhaps even Europe to some extent. It’s great that US companies are opening their doors to allow employees back but you can’t make their sales phones ring.

i figure that China companies, one that are operating more like normal, are finding domestic suppliers as they move away from Inactive US suppliers.

its easy to focus on restaurant and retail companies opening and employees back to work, but the economy may soon have to face more middle to higher salaried employees being out of work.  Many of them are working for companies that have financial capacity to close for a couple of months within ruin.  The clock is ticking on that. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think so.

[Born to Run 6601]

Since we’re talking about trump and the economy, one problem that America will soon experience is loss of demand from the BRIC countries and perhaps even Europe to some extent. It’s great that US companies are opening their doors to allow employees back but you can’t make their sales phones ring.
i figure that China companies, one that are operating more like normal, are finding domestic suppliers as they move away from Inactive US suppliers.
its easy to focus on restaurant and retail companies opening and employees back to work, but the economy may soon have to face more middle to higher salaried employees being out of work.  Many of them are working for companies that have financial capacity to close for a couple of months within ruin.  The clock is ticking on that. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think so.

Agreed. I would hate to be in the commercial real estate or travel related markets. Going to be a lot of companies burning up all their reserves in the coming months.

Anyone thinking that "opening back up" is going to reverse the direction of the economy is nuts. We would need a massive coordinated plan to mitigate. Ain't happening.

[TexArcher 39072]

14 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Seeing someone say only 160,000 people died because of me, and then seeing that person get 50 million votes to lead the country will pretty much prove yet again that the problem is the electorate. They've been shaped and herded by the hate engine, but they made that choice, too.

This is a sick place.

Foxs News has won.  Slowly and steadily, over 20+ years, they convinced millions of people that the "liberal media" was lying to them, but Fox was "fair and balanced."  If you can convince people that you're the only source of the truth, then the truth becomes whatever you want it to be.  They applied the religion model to news, information, and politics.

And it worked, because about a hundred million American adults are irredeemably stupid.

[gmr548 16701]

34 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Foxs News has won.  Slowly and steadily, over 20+ years, they convinced millions of people that the "liberal media" was lying to them, but Fox was "fair and balanced."  If you can convince people that you're the only source of the truth, then the truth becomes whatever you want it to be.  They applied the religion model to news, information, and politics.

And it worked, because about a hundred million American adults are irredeemably stupid.

I think my favorite part is the FOX constantly rails against the mainstream media, but then turns around and touts that they're not just number one, they get a majority of cable news viewers in most time slots - more than MSNBC and CNN combined.

[RomaVicta 30588]

41 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Foxs News has won.  Slowly and steadily, over 20+ years, they convinced millions of people that the "liberal media" was lying to them, but Fox was "fair and balanced."  If you can convince people that you're the only source of the truth, then the truth becomes whatever you want it to be.  They applied the religion model to news, information, and politics.

And it worked, because about a hundred million American adults are irredeemably stupid.

I think the abyss of ignorance can be found in the right's condemnation of liberal arts. I heard many hosts and callers-in to radio programs decry college liberal arts programs as "places where people are taught to be liberals." Of course, they'd then apply all the epithets and accusations of ebil to liberals, thus colleges were hotbeds of America hating.

Here's wikipedia on liberal arts which has been a bedrock of democratic discourse for the centuries where such a thing could be found:

Quote

Before they became known by their Latin variations (artes liberales, septem artes liberales, studia liberalia),^[3] the liberal arts were the continuation of Ancient Greek methods of enquiry that began with a "desire for a universal understanding."

Imagine a free society that makes the above anathema to a sizable plurality. They can't define liberal arts properly, but they'd still hate it even if they could define it. Enquiry and desire for understanding take effort. It's so much easier to make up your mind once and then only seek reinforcement.

In this Idiot World, we say freedom isn't free: soldiers and citizens face death or injury when it's under attack. True. It also costs some intellectual effort and understanding of what protects freedom from enemies who are not armed invaders.

So the ship sinks in a sea of ignorance and self-congratulation.

At least the reign of this would-be autocrat has refined my thinking on what's so wrong with America. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by RomaVicta

[Brisketexan 106899]

Imagine a free society that makes the above anathema to a sizable plurality. They can't define liberal arts properly, but they'd still hate it even if they could define it. Enquiry and desire for understanding take effort. It's so much easier to make up your mind once and then only seek reinforcement.
In this Idiot World, we say freedom isn't free: soldiers and citizens face death or injury when it's under attack. True. It also costs some intellectual effort and understanding of what protects freedom from enemies who are not armed invaders.
So the ship sinks in a sea of ignorance and self-congratulation.
At least the reign of this would-be autocrat has refined my thinking on what's so wrong with America. 

Spot on, especially the last para.
I suffered under some delusion that this country had a shot. I was a naive, stupid fucker. No longer. We have no shot not because of Trump, but because Trumpism - an orgiastic celebration of ignorance and cruelty - took root so easily and spread deeply and broadly. Too many Americans actively oppose objective truth, intelligence, and evidence-based-reasoning, and take active joy in demonizing and hurting others. They literally work themselves into a frenzy for these things. Maybe the country is only 1/3 occupied by that cancer...but that’s more than enough to kill the country.

[David Dennison 19542]

51 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Foxs News has won.  Slowly and steadily, over 20+ years, they convinced millions of people that the "liberal media" was lying to them, but Fox was "fair and balanced."  If you can convince people that you're the only source of the truth, then the truth becomes whatever you want it to be.  They applied the religion model to news, information, and politics.

And it worked, because about a hundred million American adults are irredeemably stupid.

Nobody believes Fox News is fair and balanced. Not even their viewers. That's the point. That's why it's popular with the right.

[Grade of D as in David 13255]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Spot on, especially the last para.
I suffered under some delusion that this country had a shot. I was a naive, stupid fucker. No longer. We have no shot not because of Trump, but because Trumpism - an orgiastic celebration of ignorance and cruelty - took root so easily and spread deeply and broadly. Too many Americans actively oppose objective truth, intelligence, and evidence-based-reasoning, and take active joy in demonizing and hurting others. They literally work themselves into a frenzy for these things. Maybe the country is only 1/3 occupied by that cancer...but that’s more than enough to kill the country.

I don't know, perhaps covid is the chemo we need and gets rid of enough of the cancer.

They're definitely doing all they can to help us in that regard with the aversion to masks etc.

 

[WgnBrnr 17]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Spot on, especially the last para.
I suffered under some delusion that this country had a shot. I was a naive, stupid fucker. No longer. We have no shot not because of Trump, but because Trumpism - an orgiastic celebration of ignorance and cruelty - took root so easily and spread deeply and broadly. Too many Americans actively oppose objective truth, intelligence, and evidence-based-reasoning, and take active joy in demonizing and hurting others. They literally work themselves into a frenzy for these things. Maybe the country is only 1/3 occupied by that cancer...but that’s more than enough to kill the country.

Took root so easily and spread deeply and broadly? Brisket, I venture to say and have always said, this is what our country was founded on! This is our country from birth. Lying, cheating, stealing, murder, greed and rascism. American exceptionalism....laughable. Let us be known by our fruit... This is our fruit! Who we are, who we ALWAYS have been. Hate to be so negative but it looks like the exceptional things that our country has accomplished are the exception. Thoughts???

[UDontKnow 10572]

12 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

I don't know, perhaps covid is the chemo we need and gets rid of enough of the cancer.

They're definitely doing all they can to help us in that regard with the aversion to masks etc.

 

The problem with your theory is that COVID is disproportionately killing minorities that would not have voted for Trump.

[RomaVicta 30588]

26 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Nobody believes Fox News is fair and balanced. Not even their viewers. That's the point. That's why it's popular with the right.

You're right.

The FOX crowd believe that they are engaged in a war. They embrace the bias of FOX as a countermeasure to the Enemy-of-the-State press who seek to undermine our great country in the name of the Clintons and George Soros.

The EOS press delivered us the most divisive president in the history of the country, the wicked Barack Obama.

[Brisketexan 106899]

Took root so easily and spread deeply and broadly? Brisket, I venture to say and have always said, this is what our country was founded on! This is our country from birth. Lying, cheating, stealing, murder, greed and rascism. American exceptionalism....laughable. Let us be known by our fruit... This is our fruit! Who we are, who we ALWAYS have been. Hate to be so negative but it looks like the exceptional things that our country has accomplished are the exception. Thoughts???

I can’t disagree. Like I said, I was naive. I used to think that we were an exceptional nation that nonetheless had some very deep and shameful flaws (eg, our original sin of slavery and the Jim Crow that followed).

The opposite is true: we are a deeply flawed and shameful nation that has nonetheless accomplished a few exceptional things.

We are who we always have been, and always will be. And that’s pretty fucking shitty.

[Born to Run 6601]

You're right.
The FOX crowd believe that they are engaged in a war. They embrace the bias of FOX as a countermeasure to the Enemy-of-the-State press who seek to undermine our great country in the name of the Clintons and George Soros.
The EOS press delivered us the most divisive president in the history of the country, the wicked Barack Obama.

Yep evil Obama who / checks notes/ didn't take their guns. Created jobs and a strong economy out of a recession, supported the troops, didn't set up abortion drive- throughs, went to church, was a good father and spouse and didn't cheat on his wife. Or start more wars or self-deal.

Thanks Odummy!

[workswithseed 2204]

15 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

Agreed.  There is no measuring stick.  We’re not going back to even reasonable or isolated shelter in place or distancing measures.  It’s damn the torpedoes time, full stop.

The only way we’d go back is if the deaths become so many that even hardcore Trump people demand a shutdown out of fear.  That would probably require a far higher mortality rate than we’ve seen with Covid-19.  

They may not have publicly declared it yet, but it is pretty clear they - meaning GOP politicians and voters - have already rationalized that they’re done being inconvenienced and tough shit if that means more people have to die.  The fact that they won’t even make an effort to have adequate testing and tracing before reopening, or even consider criteria that might require further shelter in place orders, or consider the type of relief that would actually help normal people survive without a job for a few months, or even wear a fucking mask in public ... well, that tells you what the real priorities are.  And it’s not some bullshit about how sincerely concerned they are that the cure is worse than the disease in general (as opposed to them personally, which they assume they won’t be affected by the disease of course), or that they’re sincerely convinced things are stable now.

I guess they can still pretend it’s a hoax or overblown or whatever makes them feel less callous than just admitting what is really motivating them.

How long do people have to stay in to make you happy? Especially in Texas, where barely anyone died, compared to New York and New Jersey. Should young, healthy people stay in and waste away their youth 'til hopefully a vaccine comes?

People will get callous if there isn't any money coming in, and there is no plan of action to open up so they can go back to work. Oregon won't open 'til July 10th. Oregon has confirmed 2,989 cases of COVID-19 as of May 7. Barely a drop in the bucket, but 380,000 jobs lost as of now. Doesn't that seem extreme? People are tired of this.

[Bartles 769]

"There is no plan of action" answers your own question. People need to stay in until there is a plan to SAFELY go back. That means masks, distancing and hygiene; all of which are really easy and yet all these people who are so concerned about their country can't seem to comply.

Also need a plan JUST IN CASE some hotspots flare up. Like quarantining and tracing, maybe shutting certain areas down again at least briefly. But that means the same people need to acknowledge that there's at least a possibility the virus is real and could start jumping around even among healthy young people.

[4th&Five 42005]

11 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

How long do people have to stay in to make you happy? Especially in Texas, where barely anyone died, compared to New York and New Jersey. Should young, healthy people stay in and waste away their youth 'til hopefully a vaccine comes?

People will get callous if there isn't any money coming in, and there is no plan of action to open up so they can go back to work. Oregon won't open 'til July 10th. Oregon has confirmed 2,989 cases of COVID-19 as of May 7. Barely a drop in the bucket, but 380,000 jobs lost as of now. Doesn't that seem extreme? People are tired of this.

Do you think the economy will turn around while people are still dying? It’s not an either/or situation. 

[Born to Run 6601]

How long do people have to stay in to make you happy? Especially in Texas, where barely anyone died, compared to New York and New Jersey. Should young, healthy people stay in and waste away their youth 'til hopefully a vaccine comes?
People will get callous if there isn't any money coming in, and there is no plan of action to open up so they can go back to work. Oregon won't open 'til July 10th. Oregon has confirmed 2,989 cases of COVID-19 as of May 7. Barely a drop in the bucket, but 380,000 jobs lost as of now. Doesn't that seem extreme? People are tired of this.

There are few deaths because extreme measures were taken and the state shut down days before Spring break. If we hated two more weeks there would be a different story to tell.

Now we are moving forward with the worst possibly scenario. A smoldering economy, no plan and in a few weeks a resurgent wave.
Resturants will reopen and have to close and permanently fail.

Buy at least no one has to suffer wearing a mask.

[workswithseed 2204]

Just now, 4th&Five said:

Do you think the economy will turn around while people are still dying? It’s not an either/or situation. 

It obviously won't turn on a dime, but if we did what Sweden did the economy wouldn't have been killed. The job market and supply lines would still be functional.

The the cartoon of the train running over people is a little off. The train should be carting food to the hungry people while others try to get in the way of it

[Brisketexan 106899]

There are few deaths because extreme measures were taken and the state shut down days before Spring break. If we hated two more weeks there would be a different story to tell.

Now we are moving forward with the worst possibly scenario. A smoldering economy, no plan and in a few weeks a resurgent wave.
Resturants will reopen and have to close and permanently fail.

Buy at least no one has to suffer wearing a mask.

Well, yeah, because masks are FASCISM! Better strap on my AR and March on the capitol, rifle at a low ready to indicate I’m ready to kill or die for the sacred liberty of [checks notes] being able to go to TJ Maxx without a piece of cloth over my mouth and nose. Fuck yew! FREEDOM EAGLE LIBERTY PATRIOT GUNS!
No plan. Even worse, active and threateningly violent RESISTANCE to even the most basic, easy of planning measures.
We’re not just going to kill people, we’re going to utterly fuck up re-entry into economic activity because THIS IS ‘MURICA NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DO! God we’re stupid.

[gmr548 16701]

 

 

 

 

How long do people have to stay in to make you happy? Especially in Texas, where barely anyone died, compared to New York and New Jersey. Should young, healthy people stay in and waste away their youth 'til hopefully a vaccine comes? People will get callous if there isn't any money coming in, and there is no plan of action to open up so they can go back to work. Oregon won't open 'til July 10th. Oregon has confirmed 2,989 cases of COVID-19 as of May 7. Barely a drop in the bucket, but 380,000 jobs lost as of now. Doesn't that seem extreme? People are tired of this.

 

 

What seems a bit extreme to me is seeing what's happened elsewhere and deciding the best plan is "Fuck it, we have no idea what's going on, but doing the right thing is hard so roll the dice."

 

Everyone's tired of it. It's not black and white. It doesn't just magically go away after a certain time.

 

I can't speak for Oregon but Texas has not made the effort/investment it needed to during slowdown to reopen safely. So we're reopening now as the data isn't looking great, and we're probably going to get trucked in the fall. It means it'll all be for nothing and we're going to get the worst of both worlds. That's the issue. No one wants to do this shit again but flying blind is a great way to end up there.

 

 Edit: It's also more important to get it right here because our state is going broke given the oil crash and priority one, two, and three will be making sure energy execs get golden parachutes. Ain't gonna be no state response when shit hits the fan, so we need to try to make sure it doesn't. We're not.

[workswithseed 2204]

8 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

What seems a bit extreme to me is seeing what's happened elsewhere and deciding the best plan is "Fuck it, we have no idea what's going on, but doing the right thing is hard so roll the dice."

Everyone's tired of it. It's not black and white. It doesn't just magically go away after a certain time.

I can't speak for Oregon but Texas has not made the effort/investment it needed to during slowdown to reopen safely. So we're reopening now as the data isn't looking great, and we're probably going to get trucked in the fall. It means it'll all be for nothing and we're going to get the worst of both worlds.

 

Twice said it best "I think his play is to declare that it was impossible to beat the invisible enemy". If you're never gonna truly get rid of this that means you can never truly open up. What world do people not say, "Fuck this!" when you can't be let out?

Are you okay with staying inside indefinitely to save one life?

I'm also not saying there isn't ways for people to mitigate this either.

Edited May 10, 2020 by workswithseed

[Nice Guy Eddie 13731]

7 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Bartles answered the question already, but here is my response:

1.  Ideally, people should stay in until the criteria that the federal government and the Texas state government stated only a few weeks ago would be prerequisites for opening up have been satisfied.  They’re ignoring their own guidelines about having reasonable testing and contact tracing ready to go, having consistently declining case numbers for a period of time, etc.   Is it too much to ask they follow their own rules?  It shouldn’t be.

2.  I’ll even concede that, in this case, it actually probably is too much to ask our government to follow their own rules because they will never get the testing system where it needs to be and they will never stick with a plan.  There are no good reasons for that - it’s because we have chaotic grifters, corrupt people, incompetent people, people interested in keeping callous business constituents happy, and malignant narcissists running the show -  but that is the reality.   But even if we’re forced to open up, that doesn’t mean Joe Public can’t wear a fucking mask.   That doesn’t mean we aren’t going to get hit again with a wave of cases, making the prior shelter in place a total waste of time because it was ended too early.  Undoing whatever benefit we’ve gained and making sure we get the worst of both worlds is not a good strategy even if it’s inevitable.

3.  As for putting food on the table, of course everyone knows that’s a paramount concern.  In Europe, relief programs pay the people a large percentage of their pre-Covid salary directly, and they have more robust unemployment.  Here, the relief program is to pay the employers, who then fire or furlough the workers anyway.  And then the workers don’t even get unemployment as long as they need because the states prematurely declare that everything is open for business now, so get a job freeloader (even though we know none are available yet).  And we don’t even extend the term on rents and mortgages - people are going to owe 3 or 4 months worth of rent all at once this summer.  So, enjoy being homeless to top it off, plebs!  We couldn’t just extend the term on that 30 year mortgage 3 months and get our money back all the same a few months later.

How anyone can claim our official response hasn’t been callous is incomprehensible to me.  There are examples of private charity, but nothing  about the official plan is designed to help ordinary people.  Our federal government even seizes medical supplies the states and local hospitals have bought and re-sells them at marked up prices through their politically connected buddies.   It’s grotesque. 

Oh, really?  Why would it be like Sweden here, and not like New York, the UK, Spain or Italy?  What is the evidence for that?

And for that matter, what is your evidence that Sweden’s economy isn’t going to be killed?  Sweden doesn’t agree with you.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-economy/update-1-swedish-finance-minister-warns-coronavirus-recession-could-to-be-worst-since-wwii-idUSL5N2CC2Y0

”The downturn in Sweden's economy could be the worst since World War Two, a government forecast showed on Friday, with gross domestic product shrinking as much as 10%.”

Declaring the economy open for business doesn’t mean everything is magically healed and Covid-19 never happened.   The head in the sand theory of economics is only comforting until it’s not.  I think people might as well start accepting some hard truths about the economy - because it’s going to happen either way - so we can at least try to limit the body count.

Yep.  Abbott didn’t really shut down the Texas economy. It was basically shutdown before he finally acted. Remember how he decided to let the counties decide and the large counties didn’t wait for him. And now Abbott isn’t really reopening it. Technically he’s trying to but the customers will decide not Greg.

[Bartles 769]

Here's a relevant blog post: How the Pandemic Ends

Quote

Basically, there’s no real end and people just decide to go on and live their lives eventually.

Historians point out that pandemics tend to have a "social end" before they have a medical end. Who gets to set the timing and terms of that end is much more defined by politics, money and power than science. So what workswithseed (why not weed?) is suggesting is actually going to come to pass nationwide at some point.

Most of us would prefer to get a few steps closer to the medical end, but it looks like we're all getting Leeroy Jenkins'd into dealing with whatever happens much sooner.

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

Bartles answered the question already, but here is my response:

1.  Ideally, people should stay in until the criteria that the federal government and the Texas state government stated only a few weeks ago would be prerequisites for opening up have been satisfied.  They’re ignoring their own guidelines about having reasonable testing and contact tracing ready to go, having consistently declining case numbers for a period of time, etc.   Is it too much to ask they follow their own rules?  It shouldn’t be.

2.  I’ll even concede that, in this case, it actually probably is too much to ask our government to follow their own rules because they will never get the testing system where it needs to be and they will never stick with a plan.  There are no good reasons for that - it’s because we have chaotic grifters, corrupt people, incompetent people, people interested in keeping callous business constituents happy, and malignant narcissists running the show -  but that is the reality.   But even if we’re forced to open up, that doesn’t mean Joe Public can’t wear a fucking mask.   Those people are pure titty baby selfish assholes.  Plenty of people suffer and still have a sense of decency and concern for their fellow man, but those people don’t.  And opening up doesn’t mean we aren’t going to get hit again with a wave of cases, making the prior shelter in place a total waste of time because it was ended too early.  Undoing whatever benefit we’ve gained and making sure we get the worst of both worlds is not a good strategy even if it’s inevitable.

3.  As for putting food on the table, of course everyone knows that’s a paramount concern.  In Europe, relief programs pay the people a large percentage of their pre-Covid salary directly, and they have more robust unemployment programs.  Here, the relief program is to pay the employers, who then fire or furlough the workers anyway.  And then the workers don’t even get unemployment as long as they need because the states prematurely declare that everything is open for business now, so get a job freeloader (even though we know none are available yet).  And we don’t even extend the term on rents and mortgages - people are going to owe 3 or 4 months worth of rent all at once this summer.  So, enjoy being homeless to top it off, plebs!  We couldn’t just extend the term on that 30 year mortgage 3 months and get our money back all the same a few months later.

How anyone can claim our official response hasn’t been callous is incomprehensible to me.  There are examples of private charity, but nothing  about the official plan is designed to help ordinary people.  Our federal government even seizes medical supplies the states and local hospitals have bought and re-sells them at marked up prices through their politically connected buddies.   It’s grotesque. 

Oh, really?  Why would it be like Sweden here, and not like New York, the UK, Spain or Italy?  What is the evidence for that?

And for that matter, what is your evidence that Sweden’s economy isn’t going to be killed?  Sweden doesn’t agree with you.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-economy/update-1-swedish-finance-minister-warns-coronavirus-recession-could-to-be-worst-since-wwii-idUSL5N2CC2Y0

”The downturn in Sweden's economy could be the worst since World War Two, a government forecast showed on Friday, with gross domestic product shrinking as much as 10%.”

Declaring the economy open for business doesn’t mean everything is magically healed and Covid-19 never happened.   The head in the sand theory of economics is only comforting until it’s not.  I think people might as well start accepting some hard truths about the economy - because it’s going to happen either way - so we can at least try to limit the body count.

If our GDP only drops 10% I will run naked down Main Street with a lit sparkler up my ass. Or, Tuesday as I also like to call it. 

[Jive Turkey 13004]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, yeah, because masks are FASCISM! Better strap on my AR and March on the capitol, rifle at a low ready to indicate I’m ready to kill or die for the sacred liberty of [checks notes] being able to go to TJ Maxx without a piece of cloth over my mouth and nose. Fuck yew! FREEDOM EAGLE LIBERTY PATRIOT GUNS!
No plan. Even worse, active and threateningly violent RESISTANCE to even the most basic, easy of planning measures.
We’re not just going to kill people, we’re going to utterly fuck up re-entry into economic activity because THIS IS ‘MURICA NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DO! God we’re stupid.

It's funny that wearing masks was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

"THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T CONTROL ME! THEY CAN'T FORCE ME TO WEAR A MASK DURING A PANDEMIC.  THIS IS PART OF THE GOVERNMENT'S PLAN TO CONTROL YOUR LIFE."

why don't they protest, i don't know, speed limits after one of them gets a ticket?  "GOVERNMENT CAN'T TELL ME HOW FAST I CAN DRIVE MY BEATER!"

 or minimum age for buying alcohol when one gets busted with a fake ID.  "GOVERNMENT CAN'T STOP MY 14 YEAR OLD FROM BUYING NATTY LIGHT!"

or any of the other thousands of laws where the government exerts control over what we can and can't do for the greater good.

fucking masks.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Jive Turkey

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

1 hour ago, Bartles said:

Here's a relevant blog post: How the Pandemic Ends

Historians point out that pandemics tend to have a "social end" before they have a medical end. Who gets to set the timing and terms of that end is much more defined by politics, money and power than science. So what workswithseed (why not weed?) is suggesting is actually going to come to pass nationwide at some point.

Most of us would prefer to get a few steps closer to the medical end, but it looks like we're all getting Leeroy Jenkins'd into dealing with whatever happens much sooner.

This has also been my go to for how this is going down. We might as well have just skipped to that and avoided all the economic carnage as the sick and death are going to happen how they are going to happen anyway with something that kills less than 1% of the people. 

We can’t and won’t shut ourselves inside for months/years for something with that low a level of lethality. So, worst of every world here as a final result, with a dash of systematic leadership failure pretty much everywhere and at every level, be it pro opening or against opening.  

[workswithseed 2204]

24 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If our GDP only drops 10% I will run naked down Main Street with a lit sparkler up my ass. Or, Tuesday as I also like to call it. 

It's like economies are interconnected.

[Bartles 769]

45 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This has also been my go to for how this is going down. We might as well have just skipped to that and avoided all the economic carnage as the sick and death are going to happen how they are going to happen anyway with something that kills less than 1% of the people. 

We can’t and won’t shut ourselves inside for months/years for something with that low a level of lethality. So, worst of every world here as a final result, with a dash of systematic leadership failure pretty much everywhere and at every level, be it pro opening or against opening.  

I wasn't endorsing that strategy, just pointing out that's what tends to happen eventually. The point is if you take a little pause of a few weeks, the sick and death numbers would be way better because spreaders recover rather than keep spreading. And the economic carnage is coming regardless, quite possibly worse because of our rush to send people back into danger.

[gmr548 16701]

Here's a relevant blog post: How the Pandemic Ends

Basically, there’s no real end and people just decide to go on and live their lives eventually.

Historians point out that pandemics tend to have a "social end" before they have a medical end. Who gets to set the timing and terms of that end is much more defined by politics, money and power than science. So what workswithseed (why not weed?) is suggesting is actually going to come to pass nationwide at some point.
Most of us would prefer to get a few steps closer to the medical end, but it looks like we're all getting Leeroy Jenkins'd into dealing with whatever happens much sooner.

This is absolutely true, but it doesn't make it right, or smart. We are really threading the needle when it comes to finding as many ways to self inflict unnecessary harm, both in terms of body count and the economy.

[gmr548 16701]

This has also been my go to for how this is going down. We might as well have just skipped to that and avoided all the economic carnage as the sick and death are going to happen how they are going to happen anyway with something that kills less than 1% of the people. 
We can’t and won’t shut ourselves inside for months/years for something with that low a level of lethality. So, worst of every world here as a final result, with a dash of systematic leadership failure pretty much everywhere and at every level, be it pro opening or against opening.  

You do realize that the economic damage wouldn't be magically avoided, right? A temporary shutdown is the economically responsible move.

[gmr548 16701]

quite possibly worse because of our rush to send people back into danger.

It's absilutely going to be worse. That much is obvious.

[Foosters 18280]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This has also been my go to for how this is going down. We might as well have just skipped to that and avoided all the economic carnage as the sick and death are going to happen how they are going to happen anyway with something that kills less than 1% of the people. 

We can’t and won’t shut ourselves inside for months/years for something with that low a level of lethality. So, worst of every world here as a final result, with a dash of systematic leadership failure pretty much everywhere and at every level, be it pro opening or against opening.  

You're advocating opening it all up in order to claw back some of the economic damage. Obviously, the mere act of opening up won't magically bring things back all the way back. Large parts of the population will continue to distance and shelter. You're advocating for an approach that is going to kill lots of people. What's the number of deaths you're comfortable with? Is there a cutoff where you think locking things down is the right move? 1 million? 2 million?

 

[Continental Op 3934]

17 minutes ago, Foosters said:

You're advocating opening it all up in order to claw back some of the economic damage. Obviously, the mere act of opening up won't magically bring things back all the way back. Large parts of the population will continue to distance and shelter. You're advocating for an approach that is going to kill lots of people. What's the number of deaths you're comfortable with? Is there a cutoff where you think locking things down is the right move? 1 million? 2 million?

 

I think I discussed this with him last week and, if I recall correctly, part of opening it all up involves all of us entering into an unwritten social contract where all of us rush back out and get back to business as usual and some of us will die and some of us won't but whatever man.  

[workswithseed 2204]

I'm wondering why y'all believe no one has died from closing. Do you think tanking the supply chain, or killing hospitals haven't killed people? This isn't black or white.

Ya ya, if everyone goes back to work everyone who is compromised will die. No one isn't saying they should go out, but that the healthy people should.

[4th&Five 42005]

If only other countries were doing better than us maybe we could copy them. 

[workswithseed 2204]

Other countries? Other states are doing better. Maybe we should try to replicate them.

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

1 hour ago, Bartles said:

I wasn't endorsing that strategy, just pointing out that's what tends to happen eventually. The point is if you take a little pause of a few weeks, the sick and death numbers would be way better because spreaders recover rather than keep spreading. And the economic carnage is coming regardless, quite possibly worse because of our rush to send people back into danger.

I didn’t take it as you were endorsing it. 

 

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

You're advocating opening it all up in order to claw back some of the economic damage. Obviously, the mere act of opening up won't magically bring things back all the way back. Large parts of the population will continue to distance and shelter. You're advocating for an approach that is going to kill lots of people. What's the number of deaths you're comfortable with? Is there a cutoff where you think locking things down is the right move? 1 million? 2 million?

 

Seriously- can we drop the bullshit of “you are advocating for an approach that’s going to kill lots of people?”  

Every approach is going to kill lots of people if there’s not a vaccine or treatment protocol by yesterday. 

Shelter in place happens?  People still dying. 

Unemployment hits 20%?  People dying 

people can’t get medical care or are afraid to go to the hospital?  People dying. 

Theres no outcome here without a fairly significant body count. You can decide to play it out for a long period of time and consume basically the entire economy or you can try to rip the bandaid off. Either way though, lots of people are going to die. 

And yes- I realize- either way the economy is going to get hit. And hit hard. But man- if we could lock in “only” a 10% drop in gdp I’d be ecstatic. Maybe our kids can someday be as well off as our parents!  What a wonderful thing to shoot for. It all sucks. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[justhookit 4206]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, yeah, because masks are FASCISM! Better strap on my AR and March on the capitol, rifle at a low ready to indicate I’m ready to kill or die for the sacred liberty of [checks notes] being able to go to TJ Maxx without a piece of cloth over my mouth and nose. Fuck yew! FREEDOM EAGLE LIBERTY PATRIOT GUNS!
No plan. Even worse, active and threateningly violent RESISTANCE to even the most basic, easy of planning measures.
We’re not just going to kill people, we’re going to utterly fuck up re-entry into economic activity because THIS IS ‘MURICA NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DO! God we’re stupid.

Man. You need a beer. Or six. And a break from the internet. Stay safe buddy.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

50 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Other countries? Other states are doing better. Maybe we should try to replicate them.

possibly your first post I have agreed with. cheers

[workswithseed 2204]

1 minute ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

possibly your first post I have agreed with. cheers

I'd figured that a fuck Aggie/OU would also be agreeable. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13629]

3 minutes ago, justhookit said:

Stay safe buddy.

Probably better directed to Dollar General security guards.

And McDonald employees.

And Whole Food security guards.

And park rangers.

And Stillwater service industry workers...

 

[Foosters 18280]

56 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Seriously- can we drop the bullshit of “you are advocating for an approach that’s going to kill lots of people?”  

Every approach is going to kill lots of people if there’s not a vaccine or treatment protocol by yesterday. 

Shelter in place happens?  People still dying. 

Unemployment hits 20%?  People dying 

people can’t get medical care or are afraid to go to the hospital?  People dying. 

Theres no outcome here without a fairly significant body count. You can decide to play it out for a long period of time and consume basically the entire economy or you can try to rip the bandaid off. Either way though, lots of people are going to die. 

And yes- I realize- either way the economy is going to get hit. And hit hard. But man- if we could lock in “only” a 10% drop in gdp I’d be ecstatic. Maybe our kids can someday be as well off as our parents!  What a wonderful thing to shoot for. It all sucks. 

No, we can't drop it. You've already acknowledged that it's worth opening up because fatality rate is low. More fatalities is the major flaw in your approach, so no, not going to ignore it.

[justhookit 4206]

2 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Probably better directed to Dollar General security guards.

And McDonald employees.

And Whole Food security guards.

And park rangers.

And Stillwater service industry workers...

 

Or I don’t know, maybe everyone should stay safe? Fuck off.

As long as we have extreme thoughts like Brisket’s - a small minority - and the fuck you my guns freedom bullshit - another small minority - it always appears that things are worse than they are. The truth is that a majority of people in this country are caught somewhere in the middle of the bullshit. My guess is that Brisket knows some Republicans or even Trump voters who aren’t trying to kill everyone. I certainly know some anti-trump people that are refusing to wear a mask. I don’t FREAK THE FUCK OUT thinking they are trying to kill me.

Drawing a political line helps nothing and likely makes it worse because instead of arguing science we are arguing politics. That line was already set in stone. Moving the discussion from Democrats want to shut things down and kill the economy but Republicans want to open things up and help the economy,  to something more like it’s really fucking clear that the more testing the better and we can all do our part by staying home when sick. It’s a simple message and isn’t politically polarizing. Oh, and when your governor starts to open up the state in a limited capacity, despite local stay at home guidelines, this doesn’t mean run out and take a fucking vacation.

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

Other countries? Other states are doing better. Maybe we should try to replicate them.

At this point are you talking Oregon or Texas? As a newbie Oregonian, I am pretty good with Kate Brown’s responses so far. The Ohio governor maybe more so, last I checked, but that’s about it, that I am aware.

The real problem here is the intentional bungling and corruption out of our current dipsticks in charge of the Federal response, thus leaving states to scramble and each come up with their own best guesses.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13629]

24 minutes ago, justhookit said:

Or I don’t know, maybe everyone should stay safe? Fuck off.

That doesn't happen when a sizable chunk of the population deliberately refuses to put to forth the minimal amount of effort required to wear a mask. Directing your sentiments to "everyone" when it's not "everyone" endangering those around them, and the violence and threats of violence is coming pretty much exclusively from one side, is amateur level both-siderism. Go fuck your own self. 

[gmr548 16701]

Maybe our kids can someday be as well off as our parents!

To use your own logic, that was already not going to happen.