Dallas Cowboys 2018 offseason thread

[DougO 5256]

1 hour ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t understand “Garrett guys”. I mean how many years has Garrett been the coach? He a Wade Phillips guy? But sure. This guy isn’t a locker room cancer. GL scoring 4 TDs next season and bitching about not getting the ball enough

Garrett guys basically means the whole team, which is telling. If these guys aren't with you that's a good sign that it's on Dez.

[DougO 5256]

14 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 Why would you consider that bad? 

Watkins would have been a disaster.

[Patrick Bateman 3928]

19 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 Why would you consider that bad? 

Because he's not worth half of that????

[Doc Sam Beckett 5797]

13 minutes ago, DougO said:

Watkins would have been a disaster.

 

Is he a bad fit for the offense or something? 

 

8 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Because he's not worth half of that????

 

Sure he is. Have you watched him play? He has everything you want in a #1 WR, he just needs the ball. 

[Bone3421 716]

4 hours ago, Drew said:

I’m not against that at all, provided they find a starting Safety there. 

We also could be missing something. Could just be a case of the cowboys being high on woods in his second year and Frazier going into this 3rd. 

 

But if all it took was a 2nd and a late round pick(probably later than a 4th to make it sweeter for us) I wouldn’t hate it. Anything higher than an extra 5th would be too much as we can find players in those rounds to contribute(like Collins, Browns, and Woods recently, and Hitchens several years ago. 

Oh I get that. But they don’t have to spend their first rounder on defense this year(even though I would want them too). 

This defense isn’t really all that bad, especially with the DLine looking to be pretty deep and talented going into this year before the draft. Really it’s just LB. obviously when Lee goes out they’re doomed, and we have to find a way to stop that. 

 

Ive seen a lot of people say they don’t want to waste 19 on a LB and I just don’t get that. This team needs one. Not because it means they’ve given up on Smith or just because they can’t trust Lee to stay healthy. You just need 3 good ones for whatever situation arises. Adding another one in the middle rounds wouldn’t hurt either. 

There will be a defense player of need at 19 im pretty sure...and yes they should draft multiple LB for sure

I will disagree about the DL though...we have no guys im confident in. Need to see lawrence do it again and who knows with gregory/taco 

I like irving i guess but im not sold on dL,but it could be a strength if you project career years...we will see

[DougO 5256]

1 hour ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 

Is he a bad fit for the offense or something? 

 

 

Sure he is. Have you watched him play? He has everything you want in a #1 WR, he just needs the ball. 

 He's a bad fit in any offense. He just hasn't been able to learn an NFL style of play. If the Rams didn't want him with their skimpy receiving corps (even behind another guy that came from Buffalo) that's pretty telling. He's just not good at routes, he drops a lot of balls and can't stay healthy. The more he played with a team, the more he fell behind other less talented receivers that could work within the scheme.

I'm surprised there are still Sammy defenders among people who actually watch the games. He's a big fast receiver, but past the physical traits he just isn't good at the game. He'll make a few plays here and there, but mostly he'll break your heart over and over again.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

He is a deep threat though. Something this team has desperately needed for a while now. Not saying I would’ve liked the deal at that value, but I can understand the logic in wanting to, if nothing else, bring someone in that can legitimately take the top off of a defense that’s going to be stacking the box against us next year. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

And man, i really don’t want to take a wr in the first round, but i would love to land D.J. Moore. Dude is a Steve smith clone.

[DougO 5256]

3 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

He is a deep threat though. Something this team has desperately needed for a while now. Not saying I would’ve liked the deal at that value, but I can understand the logic in wanting to, if nothing else, bring someone in that can legitimately take the top off of a defense that’s going to be stacking the box against us next year. 

Brice Butler was a deep threat. Watkins is just a Brice Butler that costs $20 mil. You don't pay that kind of money for a guy to stretch the field but never produce on any kind of consistent basis.

Edited April 15, 2018 by DougO

[DougO 5256]

I'm really feeling a trade-down type year. I don't feel like what the Cowboys really want will fall to them so they'll try to compensate with extra picks.

[futureman 22542]

9 minutes ago, DougO said:

Brice Butler was a deep threat. 

well it’s clear you don’t understand what “threat” means. 

[Doc Sam Beckett 5797]

12 minutes ago, DougO said:

 He's a bad fit in any offense. He just hasn't been able to learn an NFL style of play. If the Rams didn't want him with their skimpy receiving corps (even behind another guy that came from Buffalo) that's pretty telling. He's just not good at routes, he drops a lot of balls and can't stay healthy. The more he played with a team, the more he fell behind other less talented receivers that could work within the scheme.

I'm surprised there are still Sammy defenders among people who actually watch the games. He's a big fast receiver, but past the physical traits he just isn't good at the game. He'll make a few plays here and there, but mostly he'll break your heart over and over again.

You're not giving Watkins anywhere near the credit he deserves. Read this film review on Watkins last year 

 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2018/3/13/17114584/the-big-sammy-watkins-review-holy-smokes

 

Here are some of the conclusions, and the guy uses a lot of video evidence to back up his points. 

 

I review every single route the receiver runs, charting wins, losses, neutral plays, drops, and saves. For a definition of these terms, click here (the Albert Wilson film review, which also provides some context for the numbers). The goal is to separate what Watkins did from the rest of the offense in order to gauge him and him alone (since stats, even on targets, are wildly affected by the scheme and quarterback).

I also, in this case, tracked “catchable targets,” just to see what Watkins was looking at that was catchable on a game-by-game basis. The main reason for this is that the primary complaint people will likely have about Watkins is based on box score analysis.

First and foremost, Watkins’ win percentage of 43.1 percent is quite high. By comparison, Wilson was able to win on 25 percent of his snaps. This was reflected on film, as Watkins was consistently able to beat man coverage and was also able to find holes in zone coverage. As I said, he got open very, very frequently.

 

Flipping that around, Watkins only lost on 13 percent of his snaps. This is only slightly lower than Wilson (15.8 percent), but is more notable in my opinion due to the opponents and the type of coverage Watkins faced. He found himself up against man coverage more frequently than Wilson, and was MUCH more often matched up against teams’ best corners due to lining up outside quite a bit more.

Watkins only dropped one pass in the games I reviewed, and saved a few horrific throws by Rams QB Jared Goff with fantastic catches. In total, of the 16 catchable targets that came Watkins’ way, he hauled in 14 of them (losing one to a PI and another to a pass breakup by the defender).

Whether you’re talking about deep, intermediate or shorter routes, Watkins is consistently able to create separation against all forms of man and zone coverage. He has very quick feet, doesn’t take false steps, and possesses a great deal of explosion whether he’s cutting or moving down the field

With regards to route-running, Watkins (as I said above) showed good feet and burst in and out of cuts. He rarely rounded out his routes and was asked to run pretty much any route you can think of. He’s probably the best route runner the Chiefs have (though we’ll see where Hill is at when the season begins), and that’s what allows him to separate on short, quick play calls. He’s also able to go through more complex routes with multiple cuts without losing much speed.

[DougO 5256]

Final word on Watkins, think about this:

The Rams traded the #37 pick and a starting cornerback to the Bills for Watkins thinking he'd be a key piece of their offense and top target for Goff.

Then after 2017 with all that invested in him they let him walk. They spent $43 million on other free agents instead.

[DougO 5256]

2 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

You're not giving Watkins anywhere near the credit he deserves. Read this film review on Watkins last year 

 

Talk to the Rams, the Bills, the trainers and game by game stats, not by sunshine pumpers hyping the big money player they just signed.

[DougO 5256]

8 minutes ago, futureman said:

well it’s clear you don’t understand what “threat” means. 

21 yards per catch. But yeah, overall, not very threatening.

[Trey3216 15355]

1 hour ago, Bone3421 said:

There will be a defense player of need at 19 im pretty sure...and yes they should draft multiple LB for sure

I will disagree about the DL though...we have no guys im confident in. Need to see lawrence do it again and who knows with gregory/taco 

I like irving i guess but im not sold on dL,but it could be a strength if you project career years...we will see

Lawrence has always done it when he’s been on the field.  If he’s healthy, he’ll do it again.  

[Trey3216 15355]

1 hour ago, DougO said:

Brice Butler was a deep threat. Watkins is just a Brice Butler that costs $20 mil. You don't pay that kind of money for a guy to stretch the field but never produce on any kind of consistent basis.

Brice Butler couldn’t trim Sammy Watkins nutsack 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 hour ago, DougO said:

I'm really feeling a trade-down type year. I don't feel like what the Cowboys really want will fall to them so they'll try to compensate with extra picks.

It would help if Lamar Jackson fell a little bit, but i don’t see that happening. I don’t know what other players teams are going to be itching to trade up for by the time 19 rolls around.

1 hour ago, DougO said:

Brice Butler was a deep threat. Watkins is just a Brice Butler that costs $20 mil. You don't pay that kind of money for a guy to stretch the field but never produce on any kind of consistent basis.

Lol Brice Butler is your example of a deep threat, eh? For as bad as you think Watkins is, Brice Butler isn’t even half the talent Watkins is. Like I said, he wasn’t worth the price, but if Watkins was on this team he would fill a role that we haven’t had in a long fucking time. Even if it’s just his presence on the field and teams having to respect his speed 

[Bone3421 716]

21 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Lawrence has always done it when he’s been on the field.  If he’s healthy, he’ll do it again.  

2016 disagrees....12 games played and 1 sack

Has had back surgery and has been suspended....but sure put your faith in one year and a play-off game rookie year

Hope he does well for teams sake and we will see about contract 

[DougO 5256]

1 hour ago, Trey3216 said:

Brice Butler couldn’t trim Sammy Watkins nutsack 

Neither could Sammy Watkins.

[DougO 5256]

51 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

It would help if Lamar Jackson fell a little bit, but i don’t see that happening. I don’t know what other players teams are going to be itching to trade up for by the time 19 rolls around.

Lol Brice Butler is your example of a deep threat, eh? For as bad as you think Watkins is, Brice Butler isn’t even half the talent Watkins is. Like I said, he wasn’t worth the price, but if Watkins was on this team he would fill a role that we haven’t had in a long fucking time. Even if it’s just his presence on the field and teams having to respect his speed 

Please take things in their proper context. I never said he was the equivalent of Watkins. He sucked. But the reply was to "but Sammy is a deep threat!" as an excuse for signing a massively overrated player to a ludicrous contract that he could never live up to.

[Patrick Bateman 3928]

4 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 

Is he a bad fit for the offense or something? 

 

 

Sure he is. Have you watched him play? He has everything you want in a #1 WR, he just needs the ball. 

Many, many times......  He has everything you want in a WR1 except the required things a WR1 needs -- availability is the best ability, he doesn't make tough catches in traffic well enough, and can be bullied off the line.  He usually is taken out of a game by better CBs, look at what Patrick Peterson and Xavier Rhodes did to him this season.  He's not a bad player and I didn't say so, but 16 million AAV is a ridiculously poor signing (maybe the worst of the offseason), especially considering he gets 22 million in the first year and 34 million through 2 years.  Yuck.  That's AB or Nuk money.  It's more than Julio Jones and AJ Green, far better players.....

3 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

You're not giving Watkins anywhere near the credit he deserves. Read this film review on Watkins last year 

 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2018/3/13/17114584/the-big-sammy-watkins-review-holy-smokes

 

Here are some of the conclusions, and the guy uses a lot of video evidence to back up his points. 

 

I review every single route the receiver runs, charting wins, losses, neutral plays, drops, and saves. For a definition of these terms, click here (the Albert Wilson film review, which also provides some context for the numbers). The goal is to separate what Watkins did from the rest of the offense in order to gauge him and him alone (since stats, even on targets, are wildly affected by the scheme and quarterback).

I also, in this case, tracked “catchable targets,” just to see what Watkins was looking at that was catchable on a game-by-game basis. The main reason for this is that the primary complaint people will likely have about Watkins is based on box score analysis.

First and foremost, Watkins’ win percentage of 43.1 percent is quite high. By comparison, Wilson was able to win on 25 percent of his snaps. This was reflected on film, as Watkins was consistently able to beat man coverage and was also able to find holes in zone coverage. As I said, he got open very, very frequently.

 

Flipping that around, Watkins only lost on 13 percent of his snaps. This is only slightly lower than Wilson (15.8 percent), but is more notable in my opinion due to the opponents and the type of coverage Watkins faced. He found himself up against man coverage more frequently than Wilson, and was MUCH more often matched up against teams’ best corners due to lining up outside quite a bit more.

Watkins only dropped one pass in the games I reviewed, and saved a few horrific throws by Rams QB Jared Goff with fantastic catches. In total, of the 16 catchable targets that came Watkins’ way, he hauled in 14 of them (losing one to a PI and another to a pass breakup by the defender).

Whether you’re talking about deep, intermediate or shorter routes, Watkins is consistently able to create separation against all forms of man and zone coverage. He has very quick feet, doesn’t take false steps, and possesses a great deal of explosion whether he’s cutting or moving down the field

With regards to route-running, Watkins (as I said above) showed good feet and burst in and out of cuts. He rarely rounded out his routes and was asked to run pretty much any route you can think of. He’s probably the best route runner the Chiefs have (though we’ll see where Hill is at when the season begins), and that’s what allows him to separate on short, quick play calls. He’s also able to go through more complex routes with multiple cuts without losing much speed.

Sorry, not going to give a ton of credence to a Chiefs homer who's dying to justify their signing him.  Smacks of subjectivity.  Again, he has talent and can play, but he had bad money thrown at him....

Edited April 15, 2018 by Patrick Bateman

[Trey3216 15355]

2 hours ago, Bone3421 said:

2016 disagrees....12 games played and 1 sack

Has had back surgery and has been suspended....but sure put your faith in one year and a play-off game rookie year

Hope he does well for teams sake and we will see about contract 

He played with a hurt back (had surgery prior to and after the ‘16 season) and it limited him in a lot of ways.  Shoulder problem that year as well. 

[Drew 2518]

7 hours ago, Bone3421 said:

There will be a defense player of need at 19 im pretty sure...and yes they should draft multiple LB for sure

I will disagree about the DL though...we have no guys im confident in. Need to see lawrence do it again and who knows with gregory/taco 

I like irving i guess but im not sold on dL,but it could be a strength if you project career years...we will see

Okay we’re jusy going to have to disagree. They could use another 1 tech(not a first rounder but there are plenty in this draft later). But the Dline was not an issue at all inside of that one spot. 

 

Tank has has always been a good pass rusher. He just wasn’t healthy and missed games early. I don’t think he’s a 13 sack a year guy maybe, but double digits for sure. Irving is a stud, but I suspect they add another 3 tech as well to replace him next year to pair with Collins. I think we saw with more reps Taco did improve late in th the year and even if you don’t think he’ll be a stud, I could very well see him be a 8 sack guy like Greg Ellis was(not bad with the 28th pick). Gregory is just a luxury.  

 

You dont have to project career years at all. 

[Drew 2518]

5 hours ago, Bone3421 said:

2016 disagrees....12 games played and 1 sack

Has had back surgery and has been suspended....but sure put your faith in one year and a play-off game rookie year

Hope he does well for teams sake and we will see about contract 

He played through a back injury that year. Everyone knew it and talked about it. He felt like he let the team down when he got suspsended for failing a drug test, and instead of getting another surgery done during the season he toughed it out.   

 

They also won 13 games so it wasn’t an issue  

 

But when he’s not hurt he produces. Go read Bob Sturms stuff on him and Irving. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Drew

[Hornstrader 179]

If the price to bring in Earl Thomas is in fact a 2 and a 4 then I can definitely see a trade down to grab extra picks coming. 

[HuntinHorn 986]

Would like to see ET with a star on his helmet.

 

[Amobie 58]

Jeez..  Reading some of Dez's remarks reminds me of TO.  Going after your old teammates is a really bad sign of how he really was behind the scenes.

He's basically talking down his salary with this shit..

 

 

[Vic Mackey 47139]

Jeez..  Reading some of Dez's remarks reminds me of TO.  Going after your old teammates is a really bad sign of how he really was behind the scenes.
He's basically talking down his salary with this shit..
 
 

He's a clown. He portrays this image on social media for his fans about how humble he is and we've had to hear how much he has matured over the years. But he isn't. He's proving to us why they finally wanted to cut ties. He's a distraction.

[In10se 175]

43 minutes ago, Amobie said:

Jeez..  Reading some of Dez's remarks reminds me of TO.  Going after your old teammates is a really bad sign of how he really was behind the scenes.

He's basically talking down his salary with this shit..

 

 

The musers on the ticket said they ran into Witten at an event this weekend and Witten took Dez' comments personally about him. Said he was pissed saying there's no one on that roster he put more work and time into trying to help than Dez and for him to say that is ridiculous. 

He better find a place before the draft when teams who need receivers have new ones on board. I bet his bitch ass behavior on the way out combined with the word from people like Cowlishaw of how he needed his hand held constantly makes the market really small for him and at low money

[Amobie 58]

He will probably end up with the Texans.  

[Vic Mackey 47139]

 

[Bone3421 716]

13 hours ago, Drew said:

He played through a back injury that year. Everyone knew it and talked about it. He felt like he let the team down when he got suspsended for failing a drug test, and instead of getting another surgery done during the season he toughed it out.   

 

They also won 13 games so it wasn’t an issue  

 

But when he’s not hurt he produces. Go read Bob Sturms stuff on him and Irving. 

I know he was hurt but that is part of it...plus the original statement i brought up 2016 for was you/trey saying he produces when on the field

Yes we will disagree for now...Lawrence has only done it one year. Im not anointing him just yet. 

[Rabidhorn 121]

If Dallas trades down for picks then draft defense first, I would not mind them trading back up in the second round for Ridley or Moore.

[Bone3421 716]

Ridley and moore wont be in second rd 

[DougO 5256]

5 minutes ago, Bone3421 said:

Ridley and moore wont be in second rd 

The more I look at Moore I don't like his route running and body control. He's physical, athletic and good with the ball in his hands. Ridley is a pure effortless natural catcher that moves really smoothly and can break in any direction effortlessly. Moore looks like he's going to fall over half the time he has to make a cut or adjust to a ball that's a little off target. If it's not Ridley I would trade down and go after one of the handful of other receivers that could be taken at 2 or 3.

[Viper 12112]

29 minutes ago, Bone3421 said:

Ridley and moore wont be in second rd 

but if they were..., I'd personally rather trade up in the second to take Vae.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Viper

[DougO 5256]

 

[Vic Mackey 47139]

Good. Irving is a big factor on this DL. Can't believe I read people saying he doesn't mean much.

Also, I read Dez really wants to go the Giants. He might even take a one year deal on a cheaper salary to spite Dallas. With how thin skinned Dez is, that should be comedy dealing with the NY media/fans. For one, he won't have the huge backing of fans he did here. He has no ties there and is just another FA signing. The Dallas media is way laid back compared to up there. This media and many fans gave him a pass on his declining production the last 3 years. Will not be the case in NY.

[Gene Parmesan 4014]

He's going to be signing for a cheaper salary regardless of spite.

[Vic Mackey 47139]

3 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

He's going to be signing for a cheaper salary regardless of spite.

I meant cheaper salary relative to what he can get on the open market, not compared to what he made here. He is not going to find a team willing to pay him what we were going to. But I see him taking a little less than another team offered if he can play for an East team. This is personal now and he has a vendetta against Jason Garrett. He still loves Dallas and the fans but you can tell he hates Garrett. Which I don't blame him. But it's still very immature to act the way he did. It's like an ex acting out after a break up. Just move on.

But if there are guys labeled as Garrett Guys, has Garrett lost this team and is there a divide in the locker room? Wondering if his message and approach is starting to get old and falling on deaf ears.

[Gene Parmesan 4014]

Gotcha.  He is going out like a bitch so I agree there.  I don't think the locker room is divided.  I think "Garrett Guys" is just Dez being a bitch, not to defend Garrett because he's got his own issues as a coach.

[Vic Mackey 47139]

6 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Gotcha.  He is going out like a bitch so I agree there.  I don't think the locker room is divided.  I think "Garrett Guys" is just Dez being a bitch, not to defend Garrett because he's got his own issues as a coach.

You are probably right on the Garrett Guys comment. Still makes me wonder, though. T.O. pretty much the same thing when he left after 2008. Although Garrett wasn't the coach yet but it had more to do with Witten and Romo. 

[Gene Parmesan 4014]

Garrett sucks so it wouldn't surprise me if the locker room was lost.  It wouldn't be because of Dez though, Garrett's rhetoric has been exposed so many times and he's had his pants pulled down so many times it's not hard to foresee players not buying in. 

[Mileslong 4728]

I meant cheaper salary relative to what he can get on the open market, not compared to what he made here. He is not going to find a team willing to pay him what we were going to. But I see him taking a little less than another team offered if he can play for an East team. This is personal now and he has a vendetta against Jason Garrett. He still loves Dallas and the fans but you can tell he hates Garrett. Which I don't blame him. But it's still very immature to act the way he did. It's like an ex acting out after a break up. Just move on.
But if there are guys labeled as Garrett Guys, has Garrett lost this team and is there a divide in the locker room? Wondering if his message and approach is starting to get old and falling on deaf ears.

I hope he does, the absolute perfect storm of cancerous personalities coming together with he and OBJ would be monumental

[In10se 175]

59 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

I meant cheaper salary relative to what he can get on the open market, not compared to what he made here. He is not going to find a team willing to pay him what we were going to. But I see him taking a little less than another team offered if he can play for an East team. This is personal now and he has a vendetta against Jason Garrett. He still loves Dallas and the fans but you can tell he hates Garrett. Which I don't blame him. But it's still very immature to act the way he did. It's like an ex acting out after a break up. Just move on.

But if there are guys labeled as Garrett Guys, has Garrett lost this team and is there a divide in the locker room? Wondering if his message and approach is starting to get old and falling on deaf ears.

I think Sturm put it best today. It's partly Dez' fault because he has never taken personal responsibility for his actions and is always looking to coast on ability and not work hard, but it's mostly at the feet of the one person who has been the constant through all of these personnel issues. 

10 years ago you had the same situation play out the same way with TO. A year ago you had a bad ending happen with Romo where Romo wouldnt speak to Garrett and felt wronged on the way out. All this is because of this terrible dichotomy Jerry set up where the star players he feels close to don't have to answer to the coach and can come straight to him with any problems they have.

It's no wonder that Dez and Romo/TO before him felt they were on even level with the head coach and above the coordinators and other coaches. That causes major issues with the team dynamic and once the player is let go he feels personally slighted and betrayed. Then Jerry, as Dez said, comes along and blames the coach and others in the room for wanting the player gone. Jerry gets to be the good guy the entire way and whoever the coach is is blamed for betraying the player.

[Amobie 58]

Jerry really cares about these guys but he's now having to run the Cowboys like a business and it makes these kinds of endings pretty bitter.

[Amobie 58]

Fish is reporting that they have finally notified Byron Jones he is moving to CB.  

 

[oSuJeff97 3435]

1 hour ago, In10se said:

I think Sturm put it best today. It's partly Dez' fault because he has never taken personal responsibility for his actions and is always looking to coast on ability and not work hard, but it's mostly at the feet of the one person who has been the constant through all of these personnel issues. 

10 years ago you had the same situation play out the same way with TO. A year ago you had a bad ending happen with Romo where Romo wouldnt speak to Garrett and felt wronged on the way out. All this is because of this terrible dichotomy Jerry set up where the star players he feels close to don't have to answer to the coach and can come straight to him with any problems they have.

It's no wonder that Dez and Romo/TO before him felt they were on even level with the head coach and above the coordinators and other coaches. That causes major issues with the team dynamic and once the player is let go he feels personally slighted and betrayed. Then Jerry, as Dez said, comes along and blames the coach and others in the room for wanting the player gone. Jerry gets to be the good guy the entire way and whoever the coach is is blamed for betraying the player.

This is spot on.

 

[TornACL 7722]

So is anybody actually scared of Dez signing with the Redskins? Giants?

Oh, not particularly?

So now you know why Dallas cut him then.