Ex Cop and son kill unarmed black man jogging

[Pato del Muerto 52365]

8 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Maybe not a great comparison. The dealership is full of goods that they want you to buy. Goods that are not easily removed from the property, and there’s ample video surveillance  and documentation. It is automotive window shopping. 

When I was in college, I worked a couple of summers at a ford dealership. One night someone or someones went onto the lot and took the wheels off of all of the mustang gts and cobras. Never got caught. After that we had to drive all the mustangs into the service garage every night. 
you don’t have to steal entire cars. and, contractors can load their tools into their trailer every night if they want, until the building can be closed up and locked. 

[TwiceHorn 31322]

51 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Don't know about GA, but I don't think in Texas you can have the underlying felony as aggravated assault. 

"Felony murder" is kind of an imprecise term of art.  There can be murder, which is always a felony.  Then there's the common-law "felony murder rule," which means that any accomplice to a felony crime during which murder is committed is also guilty of murder.  And then there's "felony murder," meaning commission of murder during the commission of another felony offense, which can make that murder a capital offense.

In Texas, murder is a felony.  Texas has a more limited version of the "felony murder rule" at Tex. Penal Code 19.02(b)(3).  And commission of only certain other predicate offenses and murder will make it a capital offense.  Tex. Penal Code 19.03(a)(2).

Most of us don't know Georgia law that well and the charges may well change when this is presented to a grand jury.  So I wouldn't be slinging terms like "felony murder" around too much, or attaching much significance to them.

Edited May 12, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31322]

29 minutes ago, yoladu said:

Strong take.

Strong edit.

[yoladu 4072]

11 hours ago, cattail said:

[\URL]

This simp lawyer. Jesus Christ.

Pretty shoddy lawyering. What kind of advantage would you even remotely hope to achieve in having this particular client doing a live television interview?

He is either giving bad advice to his client or his client is refusing to listen.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

19 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

When I was in college, I worked a couple of summers at a ford dealership. One night someone or someones went onto the lot and took the wheels off of all of the mustang gts and cobras. Never got caught. After that we had to drive all the mustangs into the service garage every night. 
you don’t have to steal entire cars. and, contractors can load their tools into their trailer every night if they want, until the building can be closed up and locked. 

Yeah, I’m going to take a guess that that was nearly 10-20 years ago. I’m sure some of the really small dealerships lack in video equipment, but I would imagine that most have pretty robust surveillance systems in place, and the advent of security cameras and ability to get pings off of phones make stealing even hubcaps from most dealerships a difficult proposition. 

Contractors can store their tools, but there’s plenty that can be stolen from a house build. Particularly one  late into construction. That could be wiring. Or appliances. Our builder left the doors off the ovens etc to make them less attractive for thieves who might prowl the site. We had cedar beams meant for the porches stolen off the property. 

Its a far easier target with less security, and plenty of valuable items for those with a modicum of know how and intention. And it’s left virtually undefended or secured for months. 

I dont know. I just think how I felt or would feel if complete strangers were walking my property. I don’t do it. I’ve found that the ones who do do it and who bump into the rightful owners are usually ready to make a quick exit. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bobby_Batronic

[fattyflattie 4636]

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

And we're discussing everything, but the thing.  

What are we not discussing?

[BrazilHorn 6577]

Ultimately even if this guy was robbing the house, it doesn't give these two guys the right to chase after him.

1) it wasn't their house

2) they witnessed nothing

3) They could have simply trailed him and called 911 if they were truly hell bent on justice being served

These two "respect my authority" gentlemen chose to bring weapons in to the mix, chose to get out of their vehicle and chose to not wait for authorities to come all while having a buddy film it in a trailing car for posterity.

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

59 minutes ago, CDAK said:

I'm certainly no trespass lawyer.  But I find it hard to believe that is the law.  I own plot of land X with a house on it in suburban America.  I tear down the house because I want to build a new house.  The law allows people to wander around my plot of land X from the moment I tear it down until the new house is complete?  When does the law quit allowing people to wander around on my property?  

I can't speak for Georgia law, but in Texas it is the land owner's responsibility to notify the public that they are not allowed to access said property. This notification can come in the form of a sign, a fence, agricultural crops, purple paint on the trees (for forest land), or personally telling someone they are not allowed on the property. I believe with buildings with doors and such it is assumed that the public does not have access unless it is a business open to the public or whatever. Unless notification is given, it is not tresspassing. So to answer your question, the law quits allowing people to wander around your property when you tell them to with one of the forms of legal notification. Now, I'm not sure what the rules would be for a house under construction in Texas, but I would assume if it is just the framing it would be ok.

Edit: I believe some states place the burden on the person entering the property to know whether or not they are allowed to enter it, so what I said won't apply everywhere.

Edited May 12, 2020 by NotActuallyALonghorn

[Brisketexan 104744]

4 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

These two "respect my authority" gentlemen chose to bring weapons in to the mix, chose to get out of their vehicle and chose to not wait for authorities to come all while having a buddy film it in a trailing car for posterity.

This is perhaps my biggest problem with the "MAH GUNS!" crowd.  No matter what the situation is, when you show up with a firearm, the situation AUTOMATICALLY becomes a potential gunfight.  It's almost always an unnecessary escalation.

If they had chosen to tail him, even with a weapon in the vehicle (but not in their hands), that would have been 1000X better and almost certainly would have led to a non-violent outcome.

Fuck, my uncle the ATF agent was pretty clear with me when I was a kid, we were out shooting, and talking about the use of force -- "If I draw my gun, everyone including me needs to understand that my intention is to use deadly force.  I may choose not to do so, but drawing your gun means that you mean to use it.  So don't draw if you aren't serious about using it."  

The fucking fetishization of brandishing a weapon is so fucking stupid, and goes hand-in-hand with the racism in this case to create a deadly brew.  Don't be racist.  Or, if you just can't help but be racist, don't brandish a fucking gun.  Either one of those choices will knock the number of black people getting shot by white folks way down.

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13010]

Who robs a house, under construction, 10 miles from their home, while on foot? What was he going to carry that 10 miles that’s worth taking?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 hours ago, Casual Encounter said:

Who robs a house, under construction, 10 miles from their home, while on foot? What was he going to carry that 10 miles that’s worth taking?

I don’t know what he was doing, but I can probably surmise that he had a car or was driven to someplace nearby as the out for a near marathon length jog would be an outlier type of workout. 

[JBJ 3649]

Copper wire.  It's probably one of the most common things to steal.

We'll hear soon that he had a car or bike parked nearby.  That doesn't benefit the prosecution.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

5 hours ago, BrazilHorn said:

Ultimately even if this guy was robbing the house, it doesn't give these two guys the right to chase after him.

1) it wasn't their house

2) they witnessed nothing

3) They could have simply trailed him and called 911 if they were truly hell bent on justice being served

These two "respect my authority" gentlemen chose to bring weapons in to the mix, chose to get out of their vehicle and chose to not wait for authorities to come all while having a buddy film it in a trailing car for posterity.

 

This is the only point that matters. The only fucking point. Everything in this post. I keep seeing/hearing people who try to defend this with the bullshit "looks like he was doing more than just jogging." Even if he was, and there's no evidence that he was, who gives a fuck. You call the police and give a description and a direction he went. Even if you know that you saw the person commit the crime earlier in the day (hypothetically speaking) you did not witness the crime THIS time, in real time. I don't see how anyone could claim a citizens arrest and think they could get away with that. Thank god this fucking idiot and his lawyer decided to release the footage. 

[freyguy 4245]

23 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Copper wire.  It's probably one of the most common things to steal.

We'll hear soon that he had a car or bike parked nearby.  That doesn't benefit the prosecution.

The defense will have to come up with all that evidence.  And no way will they have access to the resources to gather that. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 hours ago, BurdineBandit said:

A hellscape. Multiple people on multiple pages of this thread have admitted to checking out a construction site before, but now not only is it unfathomable, but it speaks to rural america being a *hellscape* because people wander into construction sites to check out the progress and see what's going on. 

Let me add myself to the list, I walked across the street into one of the gentrification special homes here in East Austin a couple years ago with a neighbor. Walked around the home, walked upstairs, noted how the 3-floor plan looked and admired the outdoor deck at the main bedroom, came down and went back home. Sorry for contributing to making East Austin a hellscape. The rhetoric will continue to ramp up from "hey who cares people do it all the time" to "hey maybe it's not cool to do that" to "your neighborhood sounds like a hellscape if people have the audacity to walk onto property that's not theirs" to "black man need shotgun in his face for trespassing on property that's not mine nor the killer's". Just keep going, you're almost there!

I hope you people are wearing your OSHA approved hard hats.... No reason to be unsafe when you're trespassing.

[JBJ 3649]

1 minute ago, freyguy said:

The defense will have to come up with all that evidence.  And no way will they have access to the resources to gather that. 

Actually, the prosecution has to turn it over.

[Genco 3038]

Don't you think George E. Barnhill, redneck DA Esq. would have publicized that in his letter of exoneration for the Cletii?

[JBJ 3649]

5 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I can't speak for Georgia law, but in Texas it is the land owner's responsibility to notify the public that they are not allowed to access said property. This notification can come in the form of a sign, a fence, agricultural crops, purple paint on the trees (for forest land), or personally telling someone they are not allowed on the property. I believe with buildings with doors and such it is assumed that the public does not have access unless it is a business open to the public or whatever. Unless notification is given, it is not tresspassing. So to answer your question, the law quits allowing people to wander around your property when you tell them to with one of the forms of legal notification. Now, I'm not sure what the rules would be for a house under construction in Texas, but I would assume if it is just the framing it would be ok.

Edit: I believe some states place the burden on the person entering the property to know whether or not they are allowed to enter it, so what I said won't apply everywhere.

It's not an empty lot.  The house is enclosed.  He enters through an open garage door.  That would be unlawful entry burglary (without forced B&E) in most places.

[closetohumping 17408]

8 hours ago, BurdineBandit said:

A hellscape. Multiple people on multiple pages of this thread have admitted to checking out a construction site before, but now not only is it unfathomable, but it speaks to rural america being a *hellscape* because people wander into construction sites to check out the progress and see what's going on. 

Let me add myself to the list, I walked across the street into one of the gentrification special homes here in East Austin a couple years ago with a neighbor. Walked around the home, walked upstairs, noted how the 3-floor plan looked and admired the outdoor deck at the main bedroom, came down and went back home. Sorry for contributing to making East Austin a hellscape. The rhetoric will continue to ramp up from "hey who cares people do it all the time" to "hey maybe it's not cool to do that" to "your neighborhood sounds like a hellscape if people have the audacity to walk onto property that's not theirs" to "black man need shotgun in his face for trespassing on property that's not mine nor the killer's". Just keep going, you're almost there!

Why did you skip "black man would be alive if he listened to white man"

[High Plains Drifter 10984]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:56 PM, 'stache said:

You may not be intending to victim blame, but your words are in fact victim blaming. I think you might be trying to make a simple cause-effect factual statement. "If he had put his hands up and cooperated he'd be alive." One could make similar factual statements about many date rapes. "If she hadn't flirted with him she would not have been raped." From a factual cause-effect analysis, these statements might be true, but in both situations, the cause-effect fact analysis is absolutely irrelevant. The jogger had no reason to believe that these guys "just wanted to talk" just as the girl had no idea that the guy she flirted with was a rapist. It may simply be cause and effect in your mind, but the statement directly addresses the action of the victim and is reasonably interpreted by others as trying to analyze blame based on the acts or omissions of the victim.

 

I really don't the black dude could have done anything to "save his life". He would be dead regardless if he had "cooperated".

 

It's all moot-- saying "He would be dead if he had put his hands up" is victim blaming. If Dr. Dickhead doesn't want to be accused of victim blaming, then he shouldn't victim blame.

[shnsajax 3590]

I probably stopped by 20ish times when my house was being built to look around at what was going on, check out the work, and look for shit to take back to the builder. Everyone of my white friends who have built a house did the same thing. I wasn't on title yet, my neighbors didn't know me, and the number of contractors that show up during construction through out the day never ends. Hell, even the builder encouraged me to do it.

[DigglerontheHoof 21081]

I walked with my dog through a framed house in my neighborhood yesterday.  No one took shots at us, in spite of the hellscape-like environment. 

[MidTexHorn 822]

I’m a white dude. 

I frequently drive to another neighborhood to jog because it’s a better neighborhood for jogging than my own. 

I have also walked through probably a dozen home sites during those jogs or while walking my dogs. 

Haven’t been accosted or shot once. Wonder why. 

[Buzzrock 14880]

I can't speak for Georgia law, but in Texas it is the land owner's responsibility to notify the public that they are not allowed to access said property. This notification can come in the form of a sign, a fence, agricultural crops, purple paint on the trees (for forest land), or personally telling someone they are not allowed on the property. I believe with buildings with doors and such it is assumed that the public does not have access unless it is a business open to the public or whatever. Unless notification is given, it is not tresspassing. So to answer your question, the law quits allowing people to wander around your property when you tell them to with one of the forms of legal notification. Now, I'm not sure what the rules would be for a house under construction in Texas, but I would assume if it is just the framing it would be ok.
Edit: I believe some states place the burden on the person entering the property to know whether or not they are allowed to enter it, so what I said won't apply everywhere.

Same for Georgia. It’s criminal trespassing if a) you go there to do something illegal, or b) you’ve been warned via signs or directly that you aren’t allowed on the premises.

[Buzzrock 14880]

Homeowner says he didn’t steal anything.


https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/homeowner-doesnt-believe-ahmaud-arbery-stole-anything-before-his-death/ZRBC7TH4OZBGBH6UVIVHE3D7BE/

[Buzzrock 14880]

Autopsy: he was shot three times. No substances in his system.


https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/gbi-autopsy-results-shows-ahmaud-arbery-was-shot-3-times/M4AKLS3X7JGETN6HIBP7QYGTZU/

[Buzzrock 14880]

The report from the homeowner isn’t good for the Cletii. He says people enter the home all the time because it’s under construction in a popular jogging area and he doesn’t care.

That’s a stark contrast to the Cletii defending their ‘hood against criminal trespassers and thieves.

[Spankytoes 1736]

34 minutes ago, MidTexHorn said:

I’m a white dude. 

I frequently drive to another neighborhood to jog because it’s a better neighborhood for jogging than my own. 

I have also walked through probably a dozen home sites during those jogs or while walking my dogs. 

Haven’t been accosted or shot once. Wonder why. 

I’m just spitballing here, but probably because shooting someone for doing that is a fucking insane thing to do regardless of the color of your skin. I know that the statistics show that black people are 100% more likely to be shot for walking through a construction site, with a total of 1 reported case in 2020, but I don’t think it’s quite the epidemic you are making it out to be.

[Captainant 27497]

10 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

The report from the homeowner isn’t good for the Cletii. He says people enter the home all the time because it’s under construction in a popular jogging area and he doesn’t care.

That’s a stark contrast to the Cletii defending their ‘hood against criminal trespassers and thieves.

Well yeah, the other folks checking the house out must have been white. 

[ChiTownDoc 21103]

On 5/7/2020 at 11:51 AM, Alvin89 said:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/5/3/21245049/chicago-weekend-shootings-gun-violence-may-1-4-2020

Between Alvin and TonyTexas you’d think Houston was Vidor.  

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

Homeowner says he didn’t steal anything.


https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/homeowner-doesnt-believe-ahmaud-arbery-stole-anything-before-his-death/ZRBC7TH4OZBGBH6UVIVHE3D7BE/

 

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

The report from the homeowner isn’t good for the Cletii. He says people enter the home all the time because it’s under construction in a popular jogging area and he doesn’t care.

That’s a stark contrast to the Cletii defending their ‘hood against criminal trespassers and thieves.

Aww shucks. Now the “he was doing more than just jogging” crowd will have to reassess.
 

“yeah, well, uhh, he was just plotting his next move for when he comes back later that night.” Will be the new excuse.

 

[TwiceHorn 31322]

20 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

This case is a good reminder why hate crimes are a decent idea.  If you are in bumfuck deep south and a black kid is murdered by white folks, the  easiest way to get some outsider jurisdiction is through the hate crime legislation.  otherwise, it is just a bunch of George Barnhill's in charge of the decision. 

How exactly does hate crime legislation avoid Cletus prosecutors?

Are you thinking of federal civil rights charges?  Because that's not hate crime.

The hate crime statutes vary from those that treat the possibility of racial motivation as a sentencing enhancement (which is mostly ok by me) to those that create an entirely new category of crimes adding proof of racial motivation as an element.  I'm not aware that change of venue provisions are common in them.  Maybe they are.

[closetohumping 17408]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Well yeah, the other folks checking the house out must have been white. 

Or good compliant listeners

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11668]

36 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

How exactly does hate crime legislation avoid Cletus prosecutors?

Are you thinking of federal civil rights charges?  Because that's not hate crime.

The hate crime statutes vary from those that treat the possibility of racial motivation as a sentencing enhancement (which is mostly ok by me) to those that create an entirely new category of crimes adding proof of racial motivation as an element.  I'm not aware that change of venue provisions are common in them.  Maybe they are.

If the AG certifies that bumfuck GA let the klansmen off easily, the US gets jurisdiction through hate crime legislation. 
 

shepard Byrd act that obama signed. See part c
 

Certification Requirement.—

(1)In general.—No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, or a designee, that—

(A)

the Statedoes not have jurisdiction;

(B)

the Statehas requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;

(C)

the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence; or

(D)

a prosecution by the United States is in the public interest and necessary to secure substantial justice.

Edited May 13, 2020 by BehoId, The Underminer!

[aggie08 21445]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

Homeowner says he didn’t steal anything.


https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/homeowner-doesnt-believe-ahmaud-arbery-stole-anything-before-his-death/ZRBC7TH4OZBGBH6UVIVHE3D7BE/

It really pisses me off that this matters to a lot of people. As if, had he stolen a sawzall, it would have excused--or, worse, justified--taking the law into your own hands and grossly escalating a non-violent crime.

[JBJ 3649]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

The report from the homeowner isn’t good for the Cletii. He says people enter the home all the time because it’s under construction in a popular jogging area and he doesn’t care.
 

Link? He doesn't say anything close to that in his Ch2 or CNN interview.  Almost the opposite.  He says the last time his camera was triggered was in Oct.

[freyguy 4245]

The defense will now be, "my clients thought they were doing the right thing.  How were they supposed to know they were in the wrong, when their brains are so inbred and tiny?  It's not their fault."

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, freyguy said:

The defense will now be, "my clients thought they were doing the right thing.  How were they supposed to know they were in the wrong, when their brains are so inbred and tiny?  It's not their fault."

He's not wrong.....

[JBJ 3649]

26 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

It really pisses me off that this matters to a lot of people. As if, had he stolen a sawzall, it would have excused--or, worse, justified--taking the law into your own hands and grossly escalating a non-violent crime.

Agreed.  For all intensive porpoises, it wouldn't even matter if that wasn't Arbery in the house.

Edited May 13, 2020 by JBJ

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

14 hours ago, JBJ said:

It's not an empty lot.  The house is enclosed.  He enters through an open garage door.  That would be unlawful entry burglary (without forced B&E) in most places.

I wasn't referring to this case. I was just trying to explain how tresspassing law works to the quoted poster.

[TwiceHorn 31322]

1 hour ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

If the AG certifies that bumfuck GA let the klansmen off easily, the US gets jurisdiction through hate crime legislation. 
 

shepard Byrd act that obama signed. See part c
 

Certification Requirement.—

(1)In general.—No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, or a designee, that—

(A)

the Statedoes not have jurisdiction;

(B)

the Statehas requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;

(C)

the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence; or

(D)

a prosecution by the United States is in the public interest and necessary to secure substantial justice.

Well, that's a different deal than what I was talking about, which is state law hate crimes.  And the context of my comment was that Georgia did not have hate crime laws, which is ok by me.  It doesn't leave a gaping hole in the state's penal code as far as I'm concerned.

And, as anti-fed as I am as a general proposition, I like the idea of federal jurisdiction ONLY if a state requests assistance or after an affirmative finding that the state dropped the ball.  As opposed to a general assertion of federal jurisdiction because hate crimes cause Ollie's barbecue, located on an interstate highway, to sell one less rib, therefore INTERSTATE COMMERCE!!!111!!!!

This would have fit within what I call the "civil rights violation" law, as I think that's the underlying premise here.

Edited May 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13010]

3 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I walked with my dog through a framed house in my neighborhood yesterday.  No one took shots at us, in spite of the hellscape-like environment. 

Did you take off running with your spool of cooper wire afterwards? If so, can you play linebacker?

['stache 21778]

2 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

 

Aww shucks. Now the “he was doing more than just jogging” crowd will have to reassess.
 

“yeah, well, uhh, he was just plotting his next move for when he comes back later that night.” Will be the new excuse.

 

“Casing houses” is a huge problem in this country. There’s a whole website devoted to tracking suspicious (i.e. black) people “casing” neighborhoods. It’s called Nextdoor.

[Steel Shank 9416]

3 hours ago, Spankytoes said:

I’m just spitballing here, but probably because shooting someone for doing that is a fucking insane thing to do regardless of the color of your skin. I know that the statistics show that black people are 100% more likely to be shot for walking through a construction site, with a total of 1 reported case in 2020, but I don’t think it’s quite the epidemic you are making it out to be.

You're not supposed to divide by zero. Federal law or something.

[Buzzrock 14880]

Link? He doesn't say anything close to that in his Ch2 or CNN interview.  Almost the opposite.  He says the last time his camera was triggered was in Oct.

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/new-video-appears-show-ahmaud-arbery-inside-home-under-construction/ZR6VFJ6HHFFJRAHL6HRTKGSDKA/

[Buzzrock 14880]

I guess there’s a little asterisk because it came via AA’s attorney:


The Arbery family attorney, S. Lee Merritt, appeared on the View on Monday and addressed the new video. Merritt said he actually talked to the English family.

“I spoke with the homeowner,” Merritt said. “He said he had no problem with it, he never complained about it concerning Ahmaud. He didn’t suspect Ahmaud of anything criminal. He received notification when Ahmaud entered his home. People enter his home all the time because it is a popular running route and a seashore home under construction.”

['stache 21778]

I haven't seen anywhere that the Cleetii saw him in the construction house. The first reports were that they were suspicious because of "crime" in the neighborhood and that their car was broken into weeks earlier. Is this just to try and make the case that he "wasn't just jogging" to justify a racially motivated execution?

[Nicole44 22028]

My cousins and I were shot at one evening in East Texas. (A couple of times by the same person.) we were not trespassing—on a county road that bordered the property less than a quarter of a mile from where my uncle lived all his life. And we were in his truck. But I have to say that incident did change all three of us. And our attitude about driving around all over country roads at night. 
the reason they claim they fired multiple shots at us (hitting my uncle’s new truck several times) is one story. A story they told the sheriff. No charges were filed against them. I do not trust rednecks. And I’m white. My two cents for what is worth. 
 

It is good to see more loopholes closing for a defense case, however. Because Arbery’s family deserves justice. 

[NorthLoop 14116]

Sounds like a Mackenzie Kelly story

[Nicole44 22028]

22 minutes ago, NorthLoop said:

Sounds like a Mackenzie Kelly story

Lulz. To be fair there was a shady lady/harlot involved in the story. It was not me though.