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Flynn Walks.. DOJ drops case

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28904

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Paul Wesley said:

We're missing the guy who sneered and energetically lead the "Lock her up!" chant - later named to be Trump's National Security Advisor - going to fucking prison for lying to American intelligence services about conversations with Russians.  

Was paid $45,000 to speak at an event celebrating the Russian propaganda outlet RT while sitting at Table 1 with Putin and his KGB cronies...and Jill Stein. 

170405-putin-flynn-dinner-jhc-1700_ae6b4

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wildcat09
wildcat09

I don't, because the context matters. It's a smackdown of the FBI actually investigating and prosecuting extremely and obviously corrupt and illegal acts by the President's friends. This, and the SCOT

Anastasis
Anastasis

Rent free. 

wildcat09
wildcat09

Bill Barr did the job he was hired to do. 

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JBJ

JBJ 3780

Posted
Posted (edited)

You are still dodging.  Just admit that it is entrapment.

Also, strict liability crimes are commonplace in Texas.  It's just that most are Class C misdemeanors, so barely register as "crime."

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JBJ said:

Police do nothing -> Legal Behavior

That isn’t the case with Flynn. If the FBI did nothing, the US DNI would have been subject to black mail by a foreign adversary. It was about national security. The FBI doesn’t just enforce laws. Although I think Flynn made a deal (plead guility) to avoid FARA and Logan Act violations so there were definitely crimes involved. However, the feds were likely most concerned about national security

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23700

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

That isn’t the case with Flynn. If the FBI did nothing, the US DNI would have been subject to black mail by a foreign adversary. It was about national security. The FBI doesn’t just enforce laws. Although I think Flynn made a deal (plead guility) to avoid FARA and Logan Act violations so there were definitely crimes involved. However, the feds were likely most concerned about national security

FARA basically never got prosecuted (7 cases between 1966 and 2015).  Logan Act, like what, 150 yrs ago.

Flynn plead because he was being bled dry financially with legal expenses, and Mueller's team leveraged the treat of a FARA violation against his son.  Mueller needed a big scalp to hang on the wall, they got one through whatever means necessary. 

Flynn is a profiteer who plead to the crime. If he didn't want to do the time he shouldn't have plead guilty. No take backs. I am curious as to where he found his new well of resources to fund his secondary legal challenge. Was his lawyer working pro bono or what.  

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Flynn plead because he was being bled dry financially with legal expenses, and Mueller's team leveraged the treat of a FARA violation against his son

Trump and Fox News also think Flynn is a victim. In addition to lying to the FBI and FARA violations, he was caught up in an alleged kidnapping plot and the plan to build nuclear plants in the Middle East. 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23700

Posted
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Just now, GW Hayduke said:

Trump and Fox News also think Flynn is a victim. In addition to lying to the FBI and FARA violations, he was caught up in an alleged kidnapping plot and the plan to build nuclear plants in the Middle East. 

He is a profiteer POS, pulling coins out of the American foreign policy grift. 

If he can be prosecuted for those things you list, kidnapping plots, grifting nuclear plants, etc. than he should be prosecuted for them. No disagreement what so ever. 

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32545

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Relevant.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kushner-details-his-wild-idea-to-use-russias-secret-comms?ref=home

 

Quote

The president’s son-in-law and top aide, Jared Kushner, suggested having Trump’s future national security adviser use secure communications at the Russian embassy to communicate with Russian generals, according to newly released transcripts from the House Intelligence Committee. 

The suggestion, made during a December 2016 meeting with Michael Flynn and then-Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak, was ultimately nixed by the Russian ambassador, according to Kushner. 

 

Quote

Kushner’s proposed back-channel with the Kremlin has been widely reported, but this is the first detailed, on-the-record account by him of the incident. The Washington Post reported in May 2017 that Kislyak relayed the proposal to his superiors in Moscow at the time. 

Kushner framed the proposal as an innocuous way to develop closer cooperation with Russia in Syria, saying the Russian ambassador had lamented to him shortly after Trump’s 2016 electoral win that the Russians believed “America’s strategy in Syria was a little bit misguided.”

 

Quote

During a meeting with Flynn and Kislyak, Kushner said, the ambassador “suggested that—that—that there—that they would like to give us, you know, their military's perspective on it, asked if there was a secure way to do so.” 

Knowing there was no secure line in the transition office in New York, he said, “I said, look, can we use your communication? … He said, no, we shouldn't do that.” 

 

 

 

Quote

Flynn, who President Trump on Thursday praised as a “warrior,” baffled some Pentagon officials during his brief reign as national security adviser with his push to expand military communications with Russia in Syria. As The Daily Beast previously reported, Flynn raised eyebrows among some officials with a proposal to team up with Russia in Syria in a way that would actually likely violate defense provisions that bar such close cooperation. 

The transcripts detailing Kusher’s own admissions on the proposed backchannel were released on the same day the Department of Justice sparked outrage by moving to drop the case against Flynn

 

Edited by Francisco 2.0
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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13050

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Although I think there are many other qualified candidates who have long political records as public servants I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Joe Biden should select Fiona Hill as his running mate.

 

I know this isn't the Biden thread, but Russia is a ticking bomb. Or perhaps a slow poison.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32545

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Posted (edited)

Like, duh.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/team-trump-wants-mike-flynn-back-for-2020-sees-him-as-their-nelson-mandela?ref=home

 

Quote

With the Justice Department announcing Thursday that it would drop the caseagainst Michael Flynn, officials close to President Donald Trump are already gaming out ways to bring the former national security adviser back onto the national political stage.

 

Quote

Of the nine senior Trump administration officials, campaign staff, outside advisers, and longtime associates of the president reached on Thursday, all said that they wanted Flynn to assume some public-facing role in service of the president, including potentially as an official Trump surrogate Election Day inches closer. One even compared the ex-general, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russian officials, to one of history’s greatest human rights icons.

 

Quote

“Years ago when Nelson Mandela came to America after years of political persecution he was treated like a rock star by Americans,” John McLaughlin, one of President Trump’s chief pollsters, told The Daily Beast on Thursday evening. “Now after over three years of political persecution General Flynn is our rock star. A big difference is that he was persecuted in America.”

 

Quote

"The most remarkable thing about the brief filed today is the signature block. U.S. Attorney [Timothy] Shea signed the motion without any Assistant US Attorney in the signature block. I have never seen that before and nobody I know has either,” said a current DOJ official. "The reason, of course, is that nobody would sign that fucking garbage."

 

 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Relevant.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kushner-details-his-wild-idea-to-use-russias-secret-comms?ref=home

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This rather perfectly encapsulates the sort of complete idiot corruption I expected the Mueller investigation to uncover.

The Russians want to influence American policy by chatting up the incoming administration.  Doofboy suggests they do it in the Russian Embassy.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Like, duh.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/team-trump-wants-mike-flynn-back-for-2020-sees-him-as-their-nelson-mandela?ref=home

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find that flabbergasting.  Absolutely.

I stand corrected in my above post where I posited that he was discredited.  I wasn't entirely wrong, but I can't fucking believe they'd pull him back into the adminstration.

Clown show.  Insidious clown show.

I have to think this will backfire.  Not among the base, of course.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

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Posted
1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Manafort Is coming next...I can feel it.  The Fox News has been balls deep in bashing the Mueller investigation.  Trump is getting the band back together. 

The only way to let Manafort off at this juncture is by pardon. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The only way to let Manafort off at this juncture is by pardon. 

They could release him due to the virus.  Cohen was about to get out that way but then got blocked, probably by Trump/Barr.  But my money is on pardon. 

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Satchel

Satchel 6982

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Posted
6 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

Imagine that you have enemies in the govt that want to send you to prison, but they can't find anything solid to pin on you. But say they are surveiling you and discover you did something embarrassing, but totally legal. Like cheating on your wife with another man. 

If they question you about it, and it has nothing to do with any criminal activity, it isn't a federal crime if you lie. 

Hasn't Judge Sullivan already twice declared Flynn's lies to be material?

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9967

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1 hour ago, Satchel said:

Hasn't Judge Sullivan already twice declared Flynn's lies to be material?

From the DOJ motion found here - https://www.lawfareblog.com/justice-department-drops-criminal-case-against-michael-flynn

"The Government appreciates that the Court previously deemed Mr. Flynn’s statements sufficiently “material” to the investigation. United States v. Flynn, 411 F. Supp. 3d 15, 41-42 (D.D.C. 2019). It did so, however, based on the Government’s prior understanding of the nature of the investigation, before new disclosures crystallized the lack of a legitimate investigative basis for the interview of Mr. Flynn, and in the context of a decision on multiple defense Brady motions independent of the Government’s assessment of its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9967

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1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Ok, so he walks on lying to the Federal BI.  Can he still get picked up for the treason and stuff?

Interesting question. If the offense was not "material" to the investigations, then Double Jeopardy may not attach to other crimes resulting from the Russia investigation.

Arguably, the Motion to Dismiss filed by the Government admits to prosecutorial error. Judge may dismiss any subsequent prosecutions based on anything related to 2016 elections and Russia if presented by a future prosecutor if the misconduct rises to the level of . I don't think this Judge will see significant prosecutorial misconduct or acts by the Government as egregious enough to bar future prosecutions. But who knows. And who knows what another Judge might do in a subsequent case.

I would think Double Jeopardy has attached for the false statements charge.

But I am not sure the Government cannot now prosecute Flynn's son, since the Plea Deal is blown up. That may come down to what the terms were of the plea agreement. I haven't read it.  

If Flynn is smart, he quietly takes a job at government contractor and stays away from the political arena. He is too naive and unskilled at Washington 2016 and beyond to avoid future trouble. The Establishment  and Trump Swamps are alive and well - and out for blood. I wish they would get back to the business of the people. Our country is circling the drain. We need some leadership. But this is modern politics - a real Idiocracy Shit Show. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

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Posted (edited)

Let's get a few things straight on the legal process.

When one pleads guilty to an offense, one signs a plea agreement that contains a statement of facts or factual resume supporting a conviction of the offense.  Some time later, in open court, the defendant is questioned about the plea in an attempt to insure that it is voluntary.  Therefore, every defendant who pleads guilty does so twice.  There's nothing special about that and it doesn't lend any extra credence to the plea of guilty.

Second, Flynn pled guilty simultaneously with his "indictment," which was really an information.  There was no real criminal case by which he was being bled dry on fees.  It was over before it started.  Granted, there were some fees occurred in the interviewing and negotiation phases prior to the plea, but I really doubt that he was being bled dry.  Indeed, the way Flynn pled actually probably waived his Brady rights, because the government doesn't actually have a Brady obligation until they indict.  I mention the potential Brady violation because it is the most likely to have caused a dismissal in an ordinary case; it's serious shit.

In the general case, there are lots of reasons people plead guilty when they don't believe they are guilty (and in a fair number of cases aren't guilty of the offense pled to or anything at all).  Fees is one of them.  But I don't buy it in this case, because of the kind of money he was making and the very short and summary nature of the case against him.  If he paid his second lawyer, Powell, he paid her a shit ton more than he did his original lawyers.

A broad confidence that anyone who pleads guilty is actually guilty is misplaced.  The plea bargaining process is fraught with difficulty and inequality of bargaining power, even for wealthy defendants.

In Flynn's case, however, there is nearly zero reason to believe that he pled guilty for any reason other than he was caught red-handed in a lie and was, therefore, actually guilty of the offense charged.  The things that led to the dismissal of the case are technicalities that probably wouldn't have made much difference had he gone to trial.  They do create a bit of uncertainty, which could have improved his plea situation.  But, obviously, this wouldn't have happened without a favorably disposed DOJ.

Sidenote:  I am aware that modern journalistic style is "pleaded."  Fuck that.

 

Edited by TwiceHorn
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wildcat09

wildcat09 29560

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Posted

There’s literally no good reason to use “pleaded.” “Pled” is shorter, doesn’t sound fucking stupid, and it’s not like people would confuse it for a different meaning. I don’t know why “pleaded” became the “correct” word to use, but my suspicion is that some idiots decided that sounded fancier and thus more lawyerly.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23700

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8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Second, Flynn pled guilty simultaneously with his "indictment," which was really an information.  There was no real criminal case by which he was being bled dry on fees.  It was over before it started.  Granted, there were some fees occurred in the interviewing and negotiation phases prior to the plea, but I really doubt that he was being bled dry.

The comment earlier was based on articles such as...

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/18/michael-flynn-unpaid-legal-tab-1420304

Michael Flynn built up unpaid legal bills of more than $4.6 million during the Trump-Russia investigation before parting ways with his attorneys last month, according to records introduced at a federal court trial this week.

Law firm Covington & Burling appears to have billed Flynn about $5 million after he became a client in early 2017, when his lobbying and consulting work came under Justice Department scrutiny.

Covington partners Robert Kelner and Stephen Anthony initially helped the retired Army lieutenant general and his consulting firm, Flynn Intel Group, navigate a Justice Department inquiry into the firm’s work on Turkey-related issues.

After Flynn’s statements about contacts with the Russian ambassador became a focus of the FBI and special counsel Robert Mueller’s team, the white-collar lawyers negotiated a deal with prosecutors in which Flynn agreed to plead guilty to a single felony count of lyingstatements to investigators in December 2017.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

The comment earlier was based on articles such as...

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/18/michael-flynn-unpaid-legal-tab-1420304

 

 

Still, though, that's beyond this case and kind of the nature of that beast.  Big money lobbying firm spends big money being investigated.  Not lil ol Mikey Flynn getting soaked by his lawyers.

Also, a moral of this story:  as a general proposition, biglaw firms are not who you want to hire to represent you in a criminal case.  If you hire one, it should be based on the one lawyer, not the firm.  From time to time, hot shit criminal lawyers are part of a biglaw firm, e.g. Edward Bennett WIlliams (Williams & Connolly, if considered biglaw), but otherwise, it's a great way to be overcharged for less-than-standout services.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Interesting question. If the offense was not "material" to the investigations, then Double Jeopardy may not attach to other crimes resulting from the Russia investigation.

Arguably, the Motion to Dismiss filed by the Government admits to prosecutorial error. Judge may dismiss any subsequent prosecutions based on anything related to 2016 elections and Russia if presented by a future prosecutor if the misconduct rises to the level of . I don't think this Judge will see significant prosecutorial misconduct or acts by the Government as egregious enough to bar future prosecutions. But who knows. And who knows what another Judge might do in a subsequent case.

I would think Double Jeopardy has attached for the false statements charge.

But I am not sure the Government cannot now prosecute Flynn's son, since the Plea Deal is blown up. That may come down to what the terms were of the plea agreement. I haven't read it.  

If Flynn is smart, he quietly takes a job at government contractor and stays away from the political arena. He is too naive and unskilled at Washington 2016 and beyond to avoid future trouble. The Establishment  and Trump Swamps are alive and well - and out for blood. I wish they would get back to the business of the people. Our country is circling the drain. We need some leadership. But this is modern politics - a real Idiocracy Shit Show. 

Jeopardy does not attach until a jury trial commences (there's a little variation here) or a conviction becomes final.  Neither happened here, so I don't believe double jeopardy is an issue.

You can read the plea agreement here.  https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/01/politics/michael-flynn-charged/index.html

It does not promise not to prosecute his son.  But, there may be a nonpublic immunity grant in there somewhere.

I don't know what grant of dismissal does as far as the plea documents.  Certainly neither he nor the government has to abide by the covenants contained in it if the case is dismissed. But, he's got a signed declaration in there, under oath, that he did certain things and is guilty of the offense.  I don't believe that document is vitiated.  He would have a hard time contradicting it in subsequent proceedings.

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Captainant

Captainant 28400

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Posted
12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't know what grant of dismissal does as far as the plea documents.  Certainly neither he nor the government has to abide by the covenants contained in it if the case is dismissed. But, he's got a signed declaration in there, under oath, that he did certain things and is guilty of the offense.  I don't believe that document is vitiated.  He would have a hard time contradicting it in subsequent proceedings.

This is key. If he lied on those docs and declarations, did he not perjure himself and create more legal liability? Obviously, this DOJ wouldn't pursue it thanks to his political connections, but I don't understand how Flynn would ever be able to work in (a non corrupt) government again. 

But hey, it's very interesting to see the Mueller investigation die a death of a thousand cuts by Barr. Can't wait to see how they pervert justice next. 

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TexasGolf

TexasGolf 5387

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Can someone give me a one paragraph run down of what happened here?

The Justice Department said it had concluded that Flynn’s interview by the FBI was “untethered to, and unjustified by, the FBI’s counterintelligence investigation into Mr. Flynn” and that the interview on January 24, 2017 was “conducted without any legitimate investigative basis.” 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

They could release him due to the virus.  Cohen was about to get out that way but then got blocked, probably by Trump/Barr.  But my money is on pardon. 

I've been kind of following the virus and federal prisons topic because it's hot on a blog I follow.

Barr and the BOP have been schizophrenic on their home confinement policy.  At first, there was no limit on how much of your sentence you had to have served, so Cohen and a bunch of others got in the home confinement queue.  Then they changed it to have to have served 50%, so Cohen and a bunch of others got yanked out of the queue.  Yoink.  Then they changed it to 25% if less than 18 months left.

It has been a complete shit show.  In addition, BOP seems to be lying about the proliferation of the virus in federal prisons and about their mitigation efforts.  And Barr has misrepresented how many people have been released to home confinement.  Surprise, surprise.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29560

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Posted
5 minutes ago, TexasGolf said:

The Justice Department Trump's political toady, Bill Barr, said it had concluded that Flynn’s interview by the FBI was “untethered to, and unjustified by, the FBI’s counterintelligence investigation into Mr. Flynn” and that the interview on January 24, 2017 was “conducted without any legitimate investigative basis.” 

Fixed.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, Captainant said:

This is key. If he lied on those docs and declarations, did he not perjure himself and create more legal liability? Obviously, this DOJ wouldn't pursue it thanks to his political connections, but I don't understand how Flynn would ever be able to work in (a non corrupt) government again. 

But hey, it's very interesting to see the Mueller investigation die a death of a thousand cuts by Barr. Can't wait to see how they pervert justice next. 

You're right, because if you sign something you dont believe to be true, that is perjury, whether actually true or not, see above.

But, I don't think any DOJ would prosecute that, ever.

Nonetheless, he'd still have a helluva time in any kind of proceeding contradicting that prior inconsistent statement.

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