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Let's stop Probably Racist Practices/Bias by making a slightly less Racist Practice?

Drew

By Drew
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Drew

Drew 2331

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

So this looks like it's going to be a really bad idea.  Not the intention behind it, no problems for me trying improve the ability for teams to hire minority Coaches and GM's.  But I sense a ton of backlash.

 

Also, can team's get rewarded for starting White RB's and DB's?

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

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stupid as fuck, so it will probably pass.

that's the world we live in today.

 

they didn't do artificial shit about African-American QBs and look at the state of the league now...  merit actually fucking works.

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Serak The Preparer

Serak The Preparer 3424

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1 hour ago, Iceman said:

stupid as fuck, so it will probably pass.

that's the world we live in today.

 

they didn't do artificial shit about African-American QBs and look at the state of the league now...  merit actually fucking works.

Agreed. Black coaches should just patiently wait for the league to catch up. Would hate for them to accidentally rustle some jimmies!

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TonyTexas

TonyTexas 10482

Posted
Posted

Terrible thread title. 
 

This article details the proposal and all the stupidity that is involved. 
 

Rooney Rule proposal involving draft picks doesn't get at heart of NFL's diversity problem – team owners

Dan Wetzel
Dan Wetzel
Yahoo Sports
May 15, 2020, 5:14 pm

NFL team owners think NFL team owners are not hiring enough minorities as general managers, head coaches and even assistant coaches. 

NFL team owners think this is such a failure by NFL team owners that the NFL team owners are scheduled to vote next week on a resolution that will incentivize NFL team owners to hire more minorities via a bizarre system that is designed to reward teams with improved draft positions and even compensatory picks (although in some cases, it could actually add hurdles to minority hirings).

Essentially, NFL team owners are saying that NFL team owners are so prejudiced that the only way NFL team owners won’t be prejudiced is if they are given a competitive advantage to be less prejudiced. 

Here’s an idea for NFL team owners concerned that NFL team owners can’t hire qualified minorities without a carrot: start hiring qualified minorities. 

Solve this yourself. There are only 32 of you (Green Bay is owned as a collective but it operates the same way). If this is an institutional failure then, well, guess who owns the institution? You.

The solution isn’t in this ladder game of third-round draft picks. 

It’s in the mirror. 

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has been candid about the league's drop in number of minority head coaches and general managers. “Clearly, we are not where we want to be,” Goodell said earlier this year. (AP Photo/Tim Ireland)
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has been candid about the league's drop in number of minority head coaches and general managers. “Clearly, we are not where we want to be,” Goodell said earlier this year. (AP Photo/Tim Ireland)

The reward isn’t even that great and comes with all sorts of unintended consequences. It may do more harm than good to the chances of minority coaches moving up. 

According to Jim Trotter at NFL.com, it goes like this: 

  • If a team hires a minority head coach, that team, in the draft preceding the coach’s second season, would move up six spots from where it is slotted to pick in the third round. A team would jump 10 spots under the same scenario for hiring a person of color as its primary football executive, a position commonly known as general manager.

  • If a team were to fill both positions with diverse candidates in the same year, that club could jump 16 spots — six for the coach, 10 for the GM — and potentially move from the top of the third round to the middle of the second round. Another incentive: a team’s fourth-round pick would climb five spots in the draft preceding the coach’s or GM’s third year if he is still with the team. 

  • If a minority assistant left to become a coordinator elsewhere, his former club would receive a fifth-round compensatory pick. And if a person of color leaves to become a head coach or general manager, his previous team would receive a third-round compensatory pick.

  • Any team that hires a person of color as its quarterbacks coach would receive a compensatory pick at the end of the fourth round if it retains that employee beyond one season. 

spaceball.gif
 

How is it fair to teams that have hired good people to begin with and are blessed with stability?

Why is a bumbling franchise that is hiring a new coach every couple years given an advantage over, say, Pittsburgh, which picked the right one, Mike Tomlin, 13 years ago and hasn’t wavered? Those struggling teams already have the advantage of getting first dibs at players in the draft itself.

Are the Steelers better off firing Tomlin? Of course not. Should Kansas City be punished for keeping Andy Reid? How about New England, where Bill Belichick essentially does three jobs — general manager, head coach and defensive coordinator. To game the system, should the Pats officially hire a minority GM so they can move up 10 spots in the third round even if he is just a figurehead? Who does that help?

Hiring the right coach is worth way more than six spots in the third round of the draft anyway. Belichick is worth about 10 first-rounders. 

Any team owner who would make the decision on who to hire at such a critical position (or keeping the wrong guy in the job an extra season) based on six slots in a future third round has such little understanding of how the NFL works that the poor guy who got the job is essentially doomed. If nothing else, it is an incredible window into their mindset that they think this is even worthy of a vote.

The incentives aren’t even very incentive. This is window dressing.

The Dolphins' Brian Flores is one of four people of color working as a head coach in the NFL. (Al Diaz/Miami Herald/Tribune News Service via Getty Images)
The Dolphins' Brian Flores is one of four people of color working as a head coach in the NFL. (Al Diaz/Miami Herald/Tribune News Service via Getty Images)

Then there is the matter of compensatory picks to a team who has a person of color leave the franchise to take over somewhere else. This makes no sense. This isn’t an incentive to a minority coach getting hired. This is a disincentive. 

The team doing the hiring is giving an opponent, often a rival, a compensatory pick. Would the Denver Broncos take current Kansas City offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy if it means the Chiefs get another third-rounder they can use to defeat them? Under this system, hiring a white assistant instead would keep a third-round pick from Kansas City.

If Bieniemy turns out to be a great head coach, he’d be more than worth it. The Broncos, however, would be making the hire in spite of this proposal, not because of it. 

Perhaps rather than invent this convoluted reward/punishment system, NFL team owners set up a better system where they can meet prospective employees. 

Hiring often comes down to comfort level, whether the person doing the hiring realizes it. Maybe part of the owners meetings is an extra day or two where the team owners have to stick around and meet any minority assistant coach or front-office staffer who wants to come and interact with them. Brief meetings. Cocktail hour. Whatever.

Presumably, the chance to actually meet and talk to some of these candidates who don’t look like them would increase that comfort level. 

This would require teams to allow other franchise owners to chat up their employees, but this happens in all sorts of industries. Maybe then someone such as 34-year-old New England assistant Jerod Mayo becomes more than just a great former player and is seen as a sharp young coach ahead of his age, the way Sean McVay was.

If NFL team owners are so convinced that NFL team owners aren’t capable of hiring minorities, then NFL team owners should be eager to give up an extra day or two.

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Agreed. Black coaches should just patiently wait for the league to catch up. Would hate for them to accidentally rustle some jimmies!

It ain't about rustling jimmies.  The point is that it will happen when candidates are ready.  The QB position is the perfect example.

None of the dudes kicking ass at the position has the * or some bullshit agenda by his name.  It happened because they made it happen.   It's an absolute credit to them too.   

Their race doesn't matter any more, and that is fucking beautiful.  It cannot happen soon enough for other metrics.

Edited by Iceman
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Michael Knight

Michael Knight 12898

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Iceman said:

It ain't about rustling jimmies.  The point is that it will happen when candidates are ready.  The QB position is the perfect example.

None of the dudes kicking ass at the position has the * or some bullshit agenda by his name.  It happened because they made it happen.   It's an absolute credit to them too.   

Their race doesn't matter any more, and that is fucking beautiful.  It cannot happen soon enough for other metrics.

It must be so tiring being so dumb

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Michael Knight said:

It must be so tiring being so dumb

it must be tiring to embrace so mightily the scorekeeping of politics of race.

 

The race baiters had jack shit to do with the change in the QB position.  The game took care of itself.   It will do the same with coaches.

 

Then again, there is really no defense of coaching hires when shitheads like Jason garrett get recycled.  Why hasn't you agenda done its job and taken his sorry ass out?

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It must be exhausting to feel so put upon.

nope.  Just calling a spade a spade.  and the usual suspects are here to defect poor ole black corches who can't help theyselves.

 

and just FTR, I'm not anti black coach.  I am anti- discrimination, so roll with it that way.  I'm not the biggest Tomlin fan in the world, mostly for how he treated Villanueva on the flag/ anthem thingy; but Alejandro is just Messican, so not sure where the scorekeepers fall on that one.

 

Anthony Lynn might just hold a special place in my heart.   Pride of Celina, eh?

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18658

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Iceman said:

nope.  Just calling a spade a spade.  and the usual suspects are here to defect poor ole black corches who can't help theyselves.

 

and just FTR, I'm not anti black coach.  I am anti- discrimination, so roll with it that way.  I'm not the biggest Tomlin fan in the world, mostly for how he treated Villanueva on the flag/ anthem thingy; but Alejandro is just Messican, so not sure where the scorekeepers fall on that one.

 

Anthony Lynn might just hold a special place in my heart.   Pride of Celina, eh?

Hopefully in the not too distant future, white football coaches will no longer feel the sting of workplace discrimination.

They shall overcome.

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Serak The Preparer

Serak The Preparer 3424

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32 minutes ago, Iceman said:

It ain't about rustling jimmies.  The point is that it will happen when candidates are ready.  The QB position is the perfect example.

...

Their race doesn't matter any more, and that is fucking beautiful.  It cannot happen soon enough for other metrics.

I'm not sure what the first sentence means. I think you are claiming that black players either weren't good enough  to be quarterback or just didn't want to play quarterback in the 60's - 90's (with very small number of exceptions). The adoption of black quarterbacks was simply blacks being good enough to play. Is this correct? I honestly am not trying to put words in your mouth, so please let me know if this is incorrect.

 

As for your other sentence, it is simply unfathomable to be that you can truly believe that race doesn't matter. It is the single most defining trait in the United States. It certainly does not mean that all white people are powerful, all black people are disadvantaged, etc., but there is not a facet of our society in which race does not matter. Drop one person of any race into any group of a different race and the situation changes.

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Burt Macklin

Burt Macklin 18998

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, Iceman said:

It ain't about rustling jimmies.  The point is that it will happen when candidates are ready.  The QB position is the perfect example.

None of the dudes kicking ass at the position has the * or some bullshit agenda by his name.  It happened because they made it happen.   It's an absolute credit to them too.   

Their race doesn't matter any more, and that is fucking beautiful.  It cannot happen soon enough for other metrics.

lol what a stupid fucking example to use. There was bias against black quarterbacks for decades. They weren’t assessed strictly on merit for a long damn time and even recently there was an article on scouts’ language used when describing black vs. white QBs. 
 

This proposal is a horrible idea, but acting like everything is perfectly fair and we have a strict meritocracy for front offices and coaches in the NFL is just as stupid. 
 

 

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satyanash

satyanash 14281

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Quote

The league office is also looking at further enhancing the Rooney Rule by doubling the number of minority candidates a team must interview for head-coaching vacancies. It also is expected to apply the rule to coordinator positions for the first time.

This is the good idea. Expand the Rooney rules to coordinator/assistant coaching positions. No need to incentivize with upgraded draft picks, that's somewhat degrading if anything.

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F250

F250 28688

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I'm not sure what the first sentence means. I think you are claiming that black players either weren't good enough  to be quarterback or just didn't want to play quarterback in the 60's - 90's (with very small number of exceptions). The adoption of black quarterbacks was simply blacks being good enough to play. Is this correct? I honestly am not trying to put words in your mouth, so please let me know if this is incorrect.

The statement implies blacks for whatever reason took decades to learn how to play QB which is asinine. The talent was always there but the broad acceptance was not. Shit, the McNabb Limbaugh controversy happened in 2003.

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Bullneck

Bullneck 18987

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Drew said:

 

So this looks like it's going to be a really bad idea.  Not the intention behind it, no problems for me trying improve the ability for teams to hire minority Coaches and GM's.  But I sense a ton of backlash.

 

Also, can team's get rewarded for starting White RB's and DB's?

Considering the percentage of players that are black, does that ratio not seem strange to you?

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Jkwellborn

Jkwellborn 6653

Posted
Posted

Hiring or firing someone based on their color is foolish. Just like rewarding someone for the pandering. I’d be willing to bet that plenty of black coaching candidates get pissed about it, similar to the Rooney rule interview.

For a long time blacks were thought to be too stupid to play qb. The success of black qbs over time is why you have more. I don’t think it’s a great comparison to the head coach or gm though. I feel like those two positions can really fuck an organization up for years if they are mismanaged. It seems owners are willing to retread scrubs because the owners don’t care about winning as much as they do making money. Being competitive and making the playoffs occasionally with no big scandals keeps money coming in.

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gmr548

gmr548 16513

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, F250 said:

The statement implies blacks for whatever reason took decades to learn how to play QB which is asinine. The talent was always there but the broad acceptance was not. Shit, the McNabb Limbaugh controversy happened in 2003.

VY vs Kerry Collins lol. Of all the boards that should understand this...

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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3444

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Iceman said:

nope.  Just calling a spade a spade.  and the usual suspects are here to defect poor ole black corches who can't help theyselves.

 

and just FTR, I'm not anti black coach.  I am anti- discrimination, so roll with it that way.  I'm not the biggest Tomlin fan in the world, mostly for how he treated Villanueva on the flag/ anthem thingy; but Alejandro is just Messican, so not sure where the scorekeepers fall on that one.

 

Anthony Lynn might just hold a special place in my heart.   Pride of Celina, eh?

Pretty sure Villanueva is from Spain, but carry on.  And remind me again of how exactly Tomlin treated him badly?

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

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Posted
1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

lol what a stupid fucking example to use. There was bias against black quarterbacks for decades. They weren’t assessed strictly on merit for a long damn time and even recently there was an article on scouts’ language used when describing black vs. white QBs. 
 

This proposal is a horrible idea, but acting like everything is perfectly fair and we have a strict meritocracy for front offices and coaches in the NFL is just as stupid. 
 

 

I didn't say that. 

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Pretty sure Villanueva is from Spain, but carry on.  And remind me again of how exactly Tomlin treated him badly?

gave him shit for leaving the lockerroom and standing at the edge of the tunnel for the anthem.  Tomlin challenged a former  Green Beret and graduate of West Point's commitment to some idiotic lockerroom directive, when bigger principles were in play.  there was zero chance Villanuava was going along with the bullshit move, and as a leader Tomlin should have recognized it.  Instead, he was petty.

 

I know Villanueva is of Spanish descent.  It was a shot at the scorekeepers.  They fell for it.

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Iceman

Iceman 2640

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Posted
2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's nice not to need a crutch when you have a leg up.

The good ones find a job without the crutch.  Happens time and time again.

 

Keep clingin to the discrimination though...

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