The future of the Progressive Left

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

All of these people have something in common. I can't quite put my finger on it.

Misogyny is what hits me first. 

[SizzleChest 8,314]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

You think Assange should go to jail for life?  Have you kept up?

 

Nice try.  Hugo outlined it.  I DGAF about Assange.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Misogyny is what hits me first. 

Greenwald and Taibbi are misogynists?  

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

Just now, SizzleChest said:

Nice try.  Hugo outlined it.  I DGAF about Assange.

Was trying to get your take.  You brought up Assange.

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

Anyway, don't care much to argue Greenwald.  I do think cheering on Assange going to jail is the same as when folks cheered on right wing nutjobs being fact checked by corporate media distribution platforms--careful how that works when they start fact checking things in reverse.  Well, I say 'careful' but apparently most of the pretend left actually cheers that kind of thing on.  Willing to believe every false rumor of Russiagate, Steele Dossier, e.t.c. and  anyone who questions it is an agent of Putin getting rich on the russian hacking moola.

Did you know the reason Snowden is in Russia is because Joe Biden/Obama admin threatened every other country he might have sought refuge in?   Anyway...

 

 

Completely unrelated, but more to do with what I was saying to myself on here yesterday--time to curtail my participation in 'online' activism and actually do real work.

 

"The poisoned chalice of hashtag activism"

https://catalyst-journal.com/vol4/no2/the-poisoned-chalice-of-hashtag-activism

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Greenwald and Taibbi are misogynists?  

Not full blown but they have blind spots on sexism.  I think it’s mostly internalized.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-two-expat-bros-who-terrorized-women-correspondents-in-moscow/2017/12/15/91ff338c-ca3c-11e7-8321-481fd63f174d_story.html

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Did you know the reason Snowden is in Russia is because Joe Biden/Obama admin threatened every other country he might have sought refuge in?

Snowden is in Russia because he fled the country with state secrets. 

Assange is a lying piece of shit, and I DGAF what happens to him.  
 

Reality Winner should have been pardoned years ago. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

10 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Not full blown but they have blind spots on sexism.  I think it’s mostly internalized.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-two-expat-bros-who-terrorized-women-correspondents-in-moscow/2017/12/15/91ff338c-ca3c-11e7-8321-481fd63f174d_story.html

I remember the hubbub on that one.  Taibbi had some pretty good replies/diffusion on this one, but I don't care to go google them up. But to say 'misogyny' to use to  disqualify  everything they write is a a bit much, imo.

I'll quickly confess that when I first discovered Taibbi, he was pushing the envelope in an attempt to be an edgier HST.  And his days at the eXile were very edge lord-ish overall.  I think he's calmed down quite a bit.  As have I in my later years.  He focuses quite a bit on economic stuff which can be very dry these days.  I do think he's good at taking some heady matters and distilling them.

There's some pretty interesting things out there in WaPo's lead political writer conducting Student Pro War demonstrations in his college days.  But we don't care about that.  We're not out puncturing NYT writers, we're worried about those who disagree with them.

But see, imo, now we're getting into personality stuff instead of issues stuff.   Either the stuff Taibbi writes these days is sourced or it isn't.  Easy enough to make a decision based on that.  

Edited October 30, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

20 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

No worries, I forget that not everyone knows that was why I stopped lurking and joined. Surly was a much needed jolt to the senses that the world keeps on turning and that Surly humor is a unique magical thing. Came for the laughs, stayed for the conversation and dog/food pics.

Anyway, things are good. No more scans for awhile so let's get back on topic.

Going to take me awhile to wade through more lessons. (oh, some folks don't like Chomsky; I think he's a good read--but I spent more time with his early communication stuff than anything else as that was what we were doing at the time and it's been awhile, way too long and I need to return to that and get back up to speed).

 

In my short time interacting with you (I used to avoid CR, but DT Covid thread drove me to it), you've always been a respectful poster who seems to put honest thought into stances.  

Not to call attention to something you want to move on from, but truly best wishes to you in your efforts to fight on.

 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

Taibbi and Greenwald are fine. Those who take the time to get mad at them need to find better targets. They aren't leftists and never have been, so I have no clue at all what pointing out that they're not leftists is meant to accomplish.

They're skeptics to the core.

 

[Gourmand 7,778]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Taibbi and Greenwald are fine. Those who take the time to get mad at them need to find better targets. They aren't leftists and never have been, so I have no clue at all what pointing out that they're not leftists is meant to accomplish.

They're skeptics to the core.

 

They're not "fine" and they deserve they scorn and ridicule they've earned from those of us who previously respected them.  I wouldn't apologize for them by calling them skeptics, they're giant gaping middle-aged assholes now. Characterizing them as skeptics implies they feel a fundamental need to serve the truth when the reality is they, like Trump or many other smug white men over 40, feel a fundamental urge to feed their fragile egos. 

I wasn't aware until recently that Taibbi had descended into the dark abyss. Greenwald was always someone I respected during the aftermath of the Iraq War and gave him credit for consistently critiquing the US for its drone program and being a huge 4th Amendment ally, but both of these dudes went full-on nutso over the liberal focus on Russian interference in the election and the Ukraine saga. They became so invested in the sounds of their narrator's voices and their intellectual slap fights with those on the left who disagreed with them that they made everything about their compulsion to be right and win the argument that they totally lost their way. Each one is another in a long list of aggrieved white men intellectual dickheads who can't tolerate being held to account for shitty opinions so they double down instead of admitting they were wrong. They're not any different from guys like Christopher Hitchens or Bill Maher. 

This old white guy is simply fed up with asshole old white guys. 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

8 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Greenwald was always someone I respected during the aftermath of the Iraq War and gave him credit for consistently critiquing the US for its drone program and being a huge 4th Amendment ally, but both of these dudes went full-on nutso over the liberal focus on Russian interference in the election and the Ukraine saga.

Well their perspective, which is valid and will likely turn out to be the more historically accurate perspective, is that the "RUSSIA!" stuff is largely meaningless and a liberal effort to ignore their own complicity in the perpetuation of abusive American empire abroad and the exploitation of its citizens at home. If Greenwald is bitter at American liberals' abandonment of people like Snowden and Manning (to say nothing of Assange) then it's well-earned and I don't begrudge him. It's disgusting how eager the liberal intelligentsia is to shrug as whistleblowers rot in the gulag.

And I sincerely doubt the textbooks examining the fall of the American empire will make much of the Steele dossier and troll farms.

Quote

They became so invested in the sounds of their narrator's voices and their intellectual slap fights with those on the left who disagreed with them that they made everything about their compulsion to be right and win the argument that they totally lost their way.

Agree with their irritating pompousness, but "lost their way" remains to be seen.

I don't go out of my way to read either guy, but the complaints against them are so surface-level and come across as little more than social media personality beefing.

[Gourmand 7,778]

 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

*man exposes horrifying secrets about the US military and intelligence community*

liberals: "Oh, that's good!"

*man tries to survive by hiding in a Russian airport*

liberals: "Uh that AIN'T it, sis!"

Edited October 30, 2020 by bad_teammate

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

So we can move on now right? 

[washparkhorn 9,973]

It's a thing. First Amendment folks do not care for it. 

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/left-heretics-jilani-taibbi-tracey

[TwiceHorn 32,076]

57 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

It's a thing. First Amendment folks do not care for it. 

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/left-heretics-jilani-taibbi-tracey

Interesting piece.  I think it probably has a lot of validity.  Especially the part where media has no or little internal dissent.  It's polarized just like everything else.  Setting aside Trumpism, we have a real problem with that.

Edited October 30, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

nm.

Edited November 4, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

probably a tad bit too early to read into reactions.  I'm also a bit buzzed and should like more post less.

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Perspective from a progressive 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

On 5/20/2020 at 4:44 PM, henrygandorf said:

bernie fans - bernie has done a great job pulling the party left and mainstreaming policy ideas that were once aspirational pipe-dreams.

also bernie fans - the new democratic party base is comprised of never-trumper neocons.

 

Just a joke?

Side question--Pelosi sure has a lot in common with that character.

Edited November 13, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[henrygandorf 29,225]

16 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Just a joke?

pointing out hypocrisy or double talk is not trashing progressive policy or trashing the left.  when people talk out of both sides of their mouth, i will point it out and i will laugh at it, yes.  bernie is great, but yeah, some of his supporters suck.  this is fairly well known.

17 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Side question--Pelosi sure has a lot in common with that character.

i'm not sure you know what a question is.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

 

i'm not sure you know what a question is.

 

Got me there, I mistyped.  Kudos, you win! I don't understand questions! See, its that condescension I wrote about that you deny.

You asked in the other thread where you trashed progressive thought.  I'd have to do some digging, I'm sure, and the search features here (no offense, immmac) aren't the best.  The main election thread is 700-something pages.  Maybe I'll search it.  But what's the point in bumping all that when you pretty much prove it nearly immediately?   Do you understand that even the term "Bernie Bros" is reductive and used to demean folks who maybe just wanted healthcare for all?   Using that term is the start of punching left.  It gets easier from there.

And you making up what all Sanders supporters think and say is a good example of a straw man.  Not too many were fooled into thinking Sanders was pulling the party left.  You can't pull the DNC left when its owned by corporations.  There's no such thing.  Can we pull Amazon left?  Is Raytheon getting pulled left?  Or uber? 

 

 

[henrygandorf 29,225]

15 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Got me there, I mistyped.  Kudos, you win! I don't understand questions! See, its that condescension I wrote about that you deny.

nope, just fucking with you because you're being an asshole.  or maybe you're having a bad day.  if you're waiting for me to defend pelosi, you may want to pack a lunch.

15 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

You asked in the other thread where you trashed progressive thought.  I'd have to do some digging, I'm sure, and the search features here (no offense, immmac) aren't the best.  The main election thread is 700-something pages.  Maybe I'll search it.  But what's the point in bumping all that when you pretty much prove it nearly immediately?   Do you understand that even the term "Bernie Bros" is reductive and used to demean folks who maybe just wanted healthcare for all?   Using that term is the start of punching left.  It gets easier from there.

what did i prove immediately?  i don't think i've even used the term "bernie bro" in over a year since i discovered that some people don't like it.  you quoted a section from 6 months ago where i clearly said "bernie fans".  like many, i used that term as an abbreviation, and unlike many, i stopped when i learned it could be pejorative.  seriously, you are confusing me with someone else.  nice gotcha on the arrested development gif though (from may).  i love jessica walter and celebrate her entire catalog.

15 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

And you making up what all Sanders supporters think and say is a good example of a straw man.  Not too many were fooled into thinking Sanders was pulling the party left.  You can't pull the DNC left when its owned by corporations.  There's no such thing.  Can we pull Amazon left?  Is Raytheon getting pulled left?  Or uber? 

i wasn't making shit up.  i was quoting from what i saw different bernie supporters saying, because i thought it was funny.  bernie has mainstreamed a lot of ideas that were once thought of as "radical left" by those who like to label.  he has pulled the party left, and i'm not the only one who thinks this.  saying the dnc is owned by corporations is a different conversation.  when i say "party", i'm talking about voters, not the dnc. 

but yeah, when something happens and some progressives thow a spaz about it, it's funny to point that out on a texas longhorn message board.  i'm a comedy writer, and i write what i see when i think it's funny.  i'm very very consistent with that.  anything outside of that is your problem, and i don't traffic in other people's problems.

it's fucking friday.  try to enjoy it.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by henrygandorf
typos and shit

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

.  i'm a comedy writer,

 

Oh.  Alright then.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[henrygandorf 29,225]

3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Apologies for not getting it.

apologies accepted.

[gmr548 16,695]

If your income is $370k or higher, you're in the top 1%.
If your income is $160k or higher, top 5%.
If your income is $125k or higher, top 10%.
This is math, not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.
The story of America's recent economic past is one in which the Top 1% have been actively stealing from the 99%. And YOU are part of the 99%. Basically every single right-winger has been actively robbed by the 1% his entire life. Your opportunities stolen and your children's futures stolen. And all they had to do was convince you that you were so close to being in that 1%.
Just put in those extra hours. Just protect the interests of your bosses. You will get a seat, because you EARN seats in the 1% and YOU are a hard-worker, aren't you? Not like all those lazy people, right?

Again, numbers.
The Democrats don't want to surface these numbers and run on these numbers because their paymasters don't want them to. Their bourgeoisie backers in the suburbs don't want them to. It offends the Buttigieg sorts. It ruffles NPR feathers. It galls the HRC gala attendees. So the Republicans are protected from ever having to face this and the right-wing framing never have to be challenged by these basic mathematical realities.
The left had to start their movement with an ancient, soft Vermonter who had spent his 5 decades in public service being a loyal Democratic voter. Give the movement a little while to grow its own talent from youth... watch out.

This bears repeating. What was previously considered a middle class lifestyle is now really the top third or quartile. Life at the median and below fucking blows in this country. There is nothing on the horizon slowing that trend down. Everyone knows it but Democrats refuse to confront it head on. Or at least do so half heartedly. BT is 100 percent correct that the party operates within the Republican/center right frame on the issue.

[Hank Scorpio 17,924]

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

but yOu bOTh SiDES pEoPLE aRE SToOpiD!

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

 

[washparkhorn 9,973]

Dabble in Foucault to pick up chicks:

or . . . use an ancient pick-up method concocted from caveman cartoons:

 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

White liberals seeking to discipline the blacks.

"she also said that if getting more people like her in power is what they want"

 

Yes, honey, you're the axis around which the globe spins.

[wildcat09 29,579]

God I can't wait for this dumb fucking coup to end so I can move forward to hating Democrats again.

[henrygandorf 29,225]

24 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

White liberals seeking to discipline the blacks.

"she also said that if getting more people like her in power is what they want"

 

Yes, honey, you're the axis around which the globe spins.

even her mutt is like get me the f outta here.

[bad_teammate 13,509]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

God I can't wait for this dumb fucking coup to end so I can move forward to hating Democrats again.

Why would you ever pause your hatred of Democrats?

Seems foolish.

[henrygandorf 29,225]

if i'm hearing her right, how black people act when they protest might have an affect on her, a democrat, running for state office.  and she says she's ok with however the protesters act, but they have to decide if they care enough about this to accommodate her.

i don't think they do.

[bad_teammate 13,509]

The problem, of course, is the patronizing aspect of her even saying this crap out loud, much less to reporters to then be published.

White liberal paternalism is so god damned infuriating.

[Hank Scorpio 17,924]

 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

[Hank Kingsley 21,768]

Leftist Twitter is an absolute mess right now. Jimmy Dore had gained popularity and clout over the last couple of months, and he's gone after AOC and started calling them the #FraudSquad. 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Hank Kingsley

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

Dore and Brie and Halps, Dao, e.t.c. really just helped to illuminate the kabuki theater that is American politics.

The "lesser" of two evils is still technically evil.  Go figure.

All the reason I'm giving up on even paying attention to politics much anymore.  You have no impact and if your vote mattered they wouldn't let you do it.

Nothing changes until a real general strike, and/or a real revolt.  You can't win the revolt, you could possibly have an impact on them financially with a strike.  Until the billionaires are hurt, there's no reason to pretend either red or blue gives a fuck about you.

In 10 years I wonder how high AOC's net worth will be?  The system is corruption.

 

 

 

[Js1 87,177]

56 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Leftist Twitter is an absolute mess right now. Jimmy Dore had gained popularity and clout over the last couple of months, and he's gone after AOC and started calling them the #FraudSquad. 

 

You hate to see it.  People who demand 100% fealty to the cause and don't understand politics in the slightest.

Pressley, Tlaib, Omar, AOC, Bowman and Bush will do so much good because of their experiences, views and influence, but they still have to navigate Congressional politics.  They're bringing unique perspectives and voices to causes that were underrepresented in DC prior to 2018, but Congress as an institution is slow to change.  They're finally learning how to play the game. 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

Maybe AOC will one day have a beautiful, $2M home in Studio City.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Leftist Twitter is an absolute mess right now. Jimmy Dore had gained popularity and clout over the last couple of months, and he's gone after AOC and started calling them the #FraudSquad. 

 

You mean grifter leftist Twitter.  

[MC Fresh Breath 4,075]

 "Grifter" is blue maga's term for "folks I don't like or agree."  With no thought as to the "grift" perpetuated on them by everyone else.

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Everything I know about Jimmy Dore I learned against my will. 

[bad_teammate 13,509]

I have zero idea what the drama is about because... why would anyone be paying attention to these people now that there are no stakes? So bizarre.

Is it seriously just about Jimmy Dore (lol) being unhappy that AOC didn't participate in some kind of grandstanding vote of some kind? 

[Hank Kingsley 21,768]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I have zero idea what the drama is about because... why would anyone be paying attention to these people now that there are no stakes? So bizarre.

Is it seriously just about Jimmy Dore (lol) being unhappy that AOC didn't participate in some kind of grandstanding vote of some kind? 

No stakes? Does progressive activism end after a presidential general election? I know you don't believe that, so that's kind of a weird reaction. These people (TYT, Seder, Dore, Briahna Joy Gray, etc.) are thought leaders for the very online young progressives, which is a significant chunk of the constituency. I wouldn't dismiss it as meaningless Twitter chatter. 

But yeah, Dore is going postal because 1. he wants to force a M4A vote and 2. is furious that some Congresspeople ended up voting for Pelosi as speaker.  He's a clown and total shit-stirrer with an insufficient knowledge of American politics and how it works, but he's starting to get a lot of people agreeing with him and creating a larger footprint in the progressive space. 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Hank Kingsley

[Hank Kingsley 21,768]

dp

Edited January 4, 2021 by Hank Kingsley