The future of the Progressive Left

[Biff Tannen 46151]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

There is a future for the progressive left, but IMO the strategy needs to be recalibrated. 

This incessant need to shit on "establishment" Dems isn't helpful. Do you want to win an argument or do you want actual change? Treating the Dem Party as the true enemy has always been a mistake. These are people you can continue to nudge in the right direction. Whether it's actually a good thing or not, most Ds are hopeful and optimistic. They don't take kindly to being treated as moral failures. 

Leftist activism has created a lot of progress over the last decade in pushing policy ideas left. But activism is different than electoral politics. Treat Dems as people you can encourage and welcome into the tent, and the progressive left becomes more powerful. Shaming them doesn't work.

I think AOC gets it. And more people need to follow her lead, as compared to someone like Nina Turner. 

 

Very much this.  The only policy where this doesn't work for me is climate change and something like the GND.  That is something that has to be aggressively pursued, though parts of it can be tempered to reality.  That said, other progressive goals should be played out in the long game.

[wildcat09 29578]

25 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

This is from a lefty subreddit.  I feel mostly the same.  There is no 'future' for the progressive left, really.  Not a good one.

 

 

 

This is wild because the progressive left right now is the strongest it's been in probably 50 years if not longer. Do you remember what shit looked like in the 90s and early 2000s?

The need to address things like climate change and student debt sure as hell aren't going to go away and nobody else has any real answers to address them. Centrist Democratic senators are suddenly open to packing the Supreme Court because of how horrible the GOP has become. The Democratic party and the American people in general haven't been this open to progressive policy in generations. But it will take a shitload of work. Radical conservatives have spent literally 50 years and by now probably well over a trillion dollars investing in the infrastructure they've used to take over American politics. Progressives have supported Bernie in two primaries and begun organizing at the local and state level in some states. That's good, but it's just the first baby steps. There's reason for progressives to despair but for the first time in generations there's also reason for progressives to hope.

 

[bad_teammate 13496]

11 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is wild because the progressive left right now is the strongest it's been in probably 50 years if not longer. Do you remember what shit looked like in the 90s and early 2000s?

Exactly.

The left has been growing in #s and power significantly. Concern trolling about how they could be even MORE successful is laughable.

People need to fight for their own team, whatever that is, and stop playing pundit.

[bad_teammate 13496]

"THE LEFT IS TOO MEAN" is a talking point for MAGA people and rich centrists who live on social media. The real world doesn't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Rougarou 594]

21 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is wild because the progressive left right now is the strongest it's been in probably 50 years if not longer. Do you remember what shit looked like in the 90s and early 2000s?

The need to address things like climate change and student debt sure as hell aren't going to go away and nobody else has any real answers to address them. Centrist Democratic senators are suddenly open to packing the Supreme Court because of how horrible the GOP has become. The Democratic party and the American people in general haven't been this open to progressive policy in generations. But it will take a shitload of work. Radical conservatives have spent literally 50 years and by now probably well over a trillion dollars investing in the infrastructure they've used to take over American politics. Progressives have supported Bernie in two primaries and begun organizing at the local and state level in some states. That's good, but it's just the first baby steps. There's reason for progressives to despair but for the first time in generations there's also reason for progressives to hope.

 

It pains me to say, but I think you are right. The dismal tide is not just a fun quotable from that one movie; it's the inevitable change made up of the critical mass, and when you are part of the rock at which the wave is incessantly crashing into, and which will eventually be overcome and toppled, you should not ignore what's right in front of you.

There are two main, undeniable truths as I see them today:

-Demographics in America have and will remain changed, in a way that is not positive for a lot of folks who have found some privilege and comfort playing by the old rules, to the detriment of those now emboldened with numbers and allies.

-Mainstream culture and the zeitgeist of America has changed with the above demographics, and will continue to do so, thus changing the rules.

So my reasoning is to simply learn the rules of the new game and work towards finding something you can live with.

Hanging on to an old model of thinking and living is fine-- it will make for some great parties and the art will be delicious (as creative things, like spiritual things, usually thrive in the margins), as well as the exclusivity will be charming as time continues to march forward-- but one must rid themselves of the mindset of "ought and should" and not be resentful or upset when things don't align to their worldview. It's a necessity if you want to avoid being eaten up with negative emotions and ugliness like you see from the likes of some on this site.

The challenge, and it's more important now more than ever, to be of a growth mindset. Find what good you can with this new wave and try to adapt and find pockets within these people and these new ideas that you can be comfortable living with.

And above all take comfort that from this progressive revolution, as it normalizes and becomes mainstream, there will be opportunities. Human beings are human beings, and life--corrupt judges and politicians-- will, uh, find, uh, a way.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Rougarou

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

OK, what does that mean, though, when you say "strongest its been?"  Strong in what?  Social media support?  Sure. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Exactly.

The left has been growing in #s and power significantly. Concern trolling about how they could be even MORE successful is laughable.

People need to fight for their own team, whatever that is, and stop playing pundit.

 

Man, I don't want to fight you.  I like about 80%  of what you write.  But this world is so quick to label anything they don't agree with as "trolling."  "Concern trolling" to me is things like Obama putting up a tweet about this election being about the environment while he allowed drilling the arctic twice.  Concern trolling to me is California's governor of fracking complaining about wildfires and telling everyone who has already voted blue to keep doing so.

Sincerely looking in despair at the current corporate rule isn't concern trolling, imo.

And if you think I'm trolling, well its too early for me to think of an insult.  I'll say I'm doing my best to be sincere, and not snarky.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[bad_teammate 13496]

I didn't accuse anyone specifically of concern trolling, that only applies to the people it applies to.

If you are not part of the progressive left but are ~*~*~ very concerned ~*~*~ about how it could do better, you're a concern troll and need to shut up.
If you ARE part of the progressive left and are concerned about how it could do better, you're not. You just need to cheer the fuck up.

7 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

OK, what does that mean, though, when you say "strongest its been?"  Strong in what?  Social media support?  Sure. 

- Massive growth in organizations like DSA and racial-rights focused groups like BLM.
- Bernie Sanders would probably be on his way to the presidency right now if not for the intervention of Jim Clyburn in SC and then an all-at-once endorsement strategy from basically all of his opponents. It took the ENTIRE MACHINE to stop him.
- Insanely large donation lists and volunteer sign-ups.
- It's primary popularity is among the youngest and most politically active populations across racial lines.

Is the progressive left in a position to take over all of American politics in the 2022 midterms? No, but it's exponentially stronger than it was even 10 years ago. And as mentioned above, the issues that fuel the fire are not going away and neither the centrist Democrats nor Republicans are going to do anything to make those issues disappear. Biden is not going to touch school debt

It's a team that had averaged 1-11 for 3+ decades now regularly finishing 9-3 and recruiting better than basically anyone else.

[bad_teammate 13496]

Another thing to notice is the centrist move to placate the left was to say "just push Biden after the election, go along with us now and then push us afterwards" and now it's already transitioning to "shut up and go along" and Biden hasn't even won yet.

Don't take fuel from the fires, put more in. Don't stop screaming at the ghouls, scream louder.

Voters should make demands and make them forcefully. If a politician needs coddling get them out.

Edited October 27, 2020 by bad_teammate

[zork 629]

44 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

(snip)  The only policy where this doesn't work for me is climate change and something like the GND.  That is something that has to be aggressively pursued, though parts of it can be tempered to reality.  (/snip)

This made me LOL wondering which parts are which wrt reality wrt the GND and how many Oprah trillion dollar coins it would take to implement even the tempered to reality versions of each part.

goodluck-morganfreeman.gif

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

Quote

 It took the ENTIRE MACHINE to stop him

 

But it did, and it worked like a machine is supposed to work. And I'm starting to agree with those who says Sanders is an effective sheep dog.  After what happened in 2016, imo, where he campaigned forcefully for Hillary, only to have HRC turn around and say it was his fault and nobody likes him,  he was foolish to make another run at the DNC.  And now he's calling Joe his good friend while supposedly being against just about everything Joe stands for.  They can't even agree to end fossil fuel subsidies (I know after the debate some oil dudes are worried, but come on man).

I think a similar thing about AOC and the 'crew' or whatever they call themselves.  They all voted for one of the largest wealth transfers in US history (much if it completely unaccounted for) as they were afraid of being painted as starving people. Well how is that working out now?  

That's my despair, dude.  They're not anyone for 'us.'  Not anyone that seems to have a chance to do anything about it.  And now look at the court, holy crap.  People are afraid of things like gay marriage or abortion while seemingly not noting that what this is all about is crushing the working class and eventually finishing off the so-called middle class.

Sorry, I'm all over the map.  

 

 

[Biff Tannen 46151]

1 hour ago, zork said:

This made me LOL wondering which parts are which wrt reality wrt the GND and how many Oprah trillion dollar coins it would take to implement even the tempered to reality versions of each part.

goodluck-morganfreeman.gif

I would respond to this in a serious way if you were a serious poster.  Instead, you get JLaw.

[zork 629]

9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I would respond to this in a serious way if you were a serious poster.  Instead, you get JLaw.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

There is a future for the progressive left, but IMO the strategy needs to be recalibrated. 

This incessant need to shit on "establishment" Dems isn't helpful. Do you want to win an argument or do you want actual change? Treating the Dem Party as the true enemy has always been a mistake. These are people you can continue to nudge in the right direction. Whether it's actually a good thing or not, most Ds are hopeful and optimistic. They don't take kindly to being treated as moral failures. 

Leftist activism has created a lot of progress over the last decade in pushing policy ideas left. But activism is different than electoral politics. Treat Dems as people you can encourage and welcome into the tent, and the progressive left becomes more powerful. Shaming them doesn't work.

I think AOC gets it. And more people need to follow her lead, as compared to someone like Nina Turner. 

 

Basically Trump called what he did a hostile takeover of the GOP. Third party will never be a thing due to the way America is set up electorally as a first across the finish line country as opposed to a coalition government 

if you want to do what you want to do third party is a dead end road- you have to do a hostile takeover of the party. Bernie gets that. 

[bad_teammate 13496]

1 hour ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

But it did, and it worked like a machine is supposed to work.

Everything works until it doesn't.

I have no idea what your takeaway is. We lost a game so we'll lose every game forever?

Quote

And I'm starting to agree with those who says Sanders is an effective sheep dog.  After what happened in 2016, imo, where he campaigned forcefully for Hillary, only to have HRC turn around and say it was his fault and nobody likes him,  he was foolish to make another run at the DNC.  And now he's calling Joe his good friend while supposedly being against just about everything Joe stands for.  They can't even agree to end fossil fuel subsidies (I know after the debate some oil dudes are worried, but come on man).

He absolutely is a sheepdog. 100%. That was the entire argument from my perspective. As I said over and over again, Bernie is the compromise.

Bernie didn't take a run at the DNC. He's been their ally this entire time. He has been tame this entire time. He was kind to both Clinton and Biden and everyone else the entire time. For Christ's sake Biden would literally lean over to Bernie during debates to get caught up and Bernie would remind him of what was said/asked.

Imagine someone as left (or further) than Sanders who actually went hard.

Imagine someone on that stage with youth and charisma and vitality and doesn't have a record of ugly compromise. Someone who will say "Your way has failed. You are a paid representative of corporate interests that are killing us. You are corrupt and bought and paid for. Your plans will lead to death and starvation and poverty and suicide." and have no time for the polite dishonesty of Democratic politics.

Sanders was never that guy. He tried to get them to like him by working for them. The next guy or gal might not be as foolish.

We build power by staying true to our values and principles and we use that power to make THEM compromise with US. They don't have to, and just rolling over for them won't work.

Quote

I think a similar thing about AOC and the 'crew' or whatever they call themselves.  They all voted for one of the largest wealth transfers in US history (much if it completely unaccounted for) as they were afraid of being painted as starving people. Well how is that working out now?

At the beginning of this post you stand marveling at the power of The Machine. Well how long do you think it takes to build a machine? Decades.

[washparkhorn 9973]

Progressives deserve a lot of credit for maintaining unity and discipline with the Democratic Party after the nominee was chosen. We took the high road and focused in on job 1 - making sure Trump lost. Finish him and then get to work on a real stimulus plan to save the nation's economy and those suffering under the economic woes that batter the nation. 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

27 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Everything works until it doesn't.

I have no idea what your takeaway is. We lost a game so we'll lose every game forever?

He absolutely is a sheepdog. 100%. That was the entire argument from my perspective. As I said over and over again, Bernie is the compromise.

Bernie didn't take a run at the DNC. He's been their ally this entire time. He has been tame this entire time. He was kind to both Clinton and Biden and everyone else the entire time. For Christ's sake Biden would literally lean over to Bernie during debates to get caught up and Bernie would remind him of what was said/asked.

Imagine someone as left (or further) than Sanders who actually went hard.

Imagine someone on that stage with youth and charisma and vitality and doesn't have a record of ugly compromise. Someone who will say "Your way has failed. You are a paid representative of corporate interests that are killing us. You are corrupt and bought and paid for. Your plans will lead to death and starvation and poverty and suicide." and have no time for the polite dishonesty of Democratic politics.

Sanders was never that guy. He tried to get them to like him by working for them. The next guy or gal might not be as foolish.

We build power by staying true to our values and principles and we use that power to make THEM compromise with US. They don't have to, and just rolling over for them won't work.

At the beginning of this post you stand marveling at the power of The Machine. Well how long do you think it takes to build a machine? Decades.

I’m pretty sure that you are wrong about what would happen electorally in a general election if the hostile takeover of the Dems happen, but fuck- I lost a $9000 bet that Trump couldn’t win a general after a hostile takeover of the GOP so what the fuck so I know?  
But yeah- I think y’all are a majority within the Dem party just waiting for a leader to wake you up to that fact. I also think (hope?) you are a minority in the total universe of American voters but I could well be wrong about that. It will be really interesting to see what happens when y’all find that leader you are talking about that understands how to win comes from taking over the party and understands you don’t ask permission you just do it. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[bad_teammate 13496]

34 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m pretty sure that you are wrong about what would happen electorally in a general election if the hostile takeover of the Dems happen, but fuck- I lost a $9000 bet that Trump couldn’t win a general after a hostile takeover of the GOP so what the fuck so I know?  

A hostile takeover of either party is possible and potentially successful because neither party is broadly popular.

I guess you're imagining an identity politics scold taking over the Dems whose entire focus is pronouns in their Twitter bio and cool shoe choices.

Instead, imagine an economic populist who says, "You are being robbed by the fatcats in DC and their wealthy paymasters. And I'm naming names. Your wealth will be used to guarantee healthcare, income, housing, and food to every single American and not to line the pockets of the elite."

It's not far-fetched in the least.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

A hostile takeover of either party is possible and potentially successful because neither party is broadly popular.

I guess you're imagining an identity politics scold taking over the Dems whose entire focus is pronouns in their Twitter bio and cool shoe choices.

Instead, imagine an economic populist who says, "You are being robbed by the fatcats in DC and their wealthy paymasters. And I'm naming names. Your wealth will be used to guarantee healthcare, income, housing, and food to every single American and not to line the pockets of the elite."

It's not far-fetched in the least.

No I’m not imagining that scold (but I chuckled) taking over, but rather the idea that our middle class isn’t so hollowed out and the American Dream isn’t so dead that people will sign up for massively confiscatory taxes and major redistribution of wealth. But yeah- I could be wrong. 

[bad_teammate 13496]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

No I’m not imagining that scold (but I chuckled) taking over, but rather the idea that our middle class isn’t so hollowed out and the American Dream isn’t so dead that people will sign up for massively confiscatory taxes and major redistribution of wealth. But yeah- I could be wrong. 

You could go twice as hard as Bernie on wealth taxation and it still wouldn't touch anything that could be reasonably defined as "middle class".

One of the massive problems centrist/corporate Democrats have is that they essentially let the framing I've bolded in your post live. It's a right-wing framing and they play by it. You can see it now in Biden and Harris running so scared regarding things like the $400k+ tax hike and ending subsidies to O&G.

People who act guilty are perceived as hiding something. People who are confident are not perceived that way.

So let's say I get out there and I say, "We are going to dramatically raise taxes on the top 1% of wealth holders to improve the material conditions of all Americans!"
Traditional Republican/right-wing comeback is, "This is going to destroy the middle class!"
Traditional Democratic response to that is a fearful, "Uhh uhh no no no no I won't raise taxes too much!"

So you've offered the traditional right-wing response and your expectation is a traditional Democrat response of recoiling and stuttering and hiding.

A left economic populist would confront you directly and not be scared of acknowledging the need for taxes and the need for government intervention. Basically, you're used to winning battles against cowards who are already running away from you (centrist Democrats) and it's convinced you that your argument is stronger than it really is.

Raising class consciousness destroys the right-wing frame. Because the right-wing framing you've offered is a lie.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You could go twice as hard as Bernie on wealth taxation and it still wouldn't touch anything that could be reasonably defined as "middle class".

One of the massive problems centrist/corporate Democrats have is that they essentially let the framing I've bolded in your post live. It's a right-wing framing and they play by it. You can see it now in Biden and Harris running so scared regarding things like the $400k+ tax hike and ending subsidies to O&G.

People who act guilty are perceived as hiding something. People who are confident are not perceived that way.

So let's say I get out there and I say, "We are going to dramatically raise taxes on the top 1% of wealth holders to improve the material conditions of all Americans!"
Traditional Republican/right-wing comeback is, "This is going to destroy the middle class!"
Traditional Democratic response to that is a fearful, "Uhh uhh no no no no I won't raise taxes too much!"

So you've offered the traditional right-wing response and your expectation is a traditional Democrat response of recoiling and stuttering and hiding.

A left economic populist would confront you directly and not be scared of acknowledging the need for taxes and the need for government intervention. Basically, you're used to winning battles against cowards who are already running away from you (centrist Democrats) and it's convinced you that your argument is stronger than it really is.

Raising class consciousness destroys the right-wing frame. Because the right-wing framing you've offered is a lie.

That’s obviously where we disagree. I’ve got my thoughts and you’ve got yours and someday we will likely see who is right- but we are pretty much in agreement that the opportunity is just sitting there waiting for y’all to hijack the Dem party and get it on and see who is right. 

[Dropout 355]

This feels applicable here.

https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Dropout
This board is at ~ 142 billion on the Bezos scale.

[bad_teammate 13496]

If your income is $370k or higher, you're in the top 1%.
If your income is $160k or higher, top 5%.
If your income is $125k or higher, top 10%.

This is math, not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.

The story of America's recent economic past is one in which the Top 1% have been actively stealing from the 99%. And YOU are part of the 99%. Basically every single right-winger has been actively robbed by the 1% his entire life. Your opportunities stolen and your children's futures stolen. And all they had to do was convince you that you were so close to being in that 1%.

Just put in those extra hours. Just protect the interests of your bosses. You will get a seat, because you EARN seats in the 1% and YOU are a hard-worker, aren't you? Not like all those lazy people, right?

Again, numbers.

The Democrats don't want to surface these numbers and run on these numbers because their paymasters don't want them to. Their bourgeoisie backers in the suburbs don't want them to. It offends the Buttigieg sorts. It ruffles NPR feathers. It galls the HRC gala attendees. So the Republicans are protected from ever having to face this and the right-wing framing never have to be challenged by these basic mathematical realities.

The left had to start their movement with an ancient, soft Vermonter who had spent his 5 decades in public service being a loyal Democratic voter. Give the movement a little while to grow its own talent from youth... watch out.

[bad_teammate 13496]

Another reason Democrats will not want to look at that: LOOK AT THE OBAMA YEARS

Now extrapolate Joe Biden, a guy who is even MORE of a corporate stooge than Obama.

The left is going to have so much fuel.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Just put in those extra hours. Just protect the interests of your bosses. You will get a seat, because you EARN seats in the 1% and YOU are a hard-worker, aren't you? Not like all those lazy people, right?

How our media frames economic growth in this country is a mindfuck b/c it convinces people things are getting better when in reality that economic growth is going exclusively to the top at the expense of everyone else. It’s ironic this is among the few times the right tries to get Americans to think in terms of a collective, when it’s about serving the elites.  

They don’t tell you about the 40 million Americans in medical debt, or the rising costs of living, or shrinking wages, or the growing poverty problem.  

The framing of taxes is also misleading because it’s just a cost that never gets framed in relation to all the other costs everyone has to pay. Costs that the government also has a hand in regulating or not regulating. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

 

Quote

Bernie didn't take a run at the DNC. 

 

You're correct, I phrased it poorly.  He tried to run as a Dem again, betraying his history of venting at them for decades.  He was indeed the compromise, but it became all about Bernie and the pejoratives used to describe those who supported him.  Its our cult of personality politics in action.

 

Quote

Imagine someone as left (or further) than Sanders who actually went hard.

 

This is where your are more positive than me.  I think if that person was a genuine threat, as even Sanders was, that person gets shut down and/or co-opted. 

 

Quote

At the beginning of this post you stand marveling at the power of The Machine. Well how long do you think it takes to build a machine? Decades.

I don't mean to cheapen what you had to say.  As I said, I tend to agree most of what you post.  And I could be misinterpreting this, but you and I know we don't have decades left.  We're seeing the worse and worse effects of climate change practically daily now and we still think that phrase "ban fracking" is somehow radical, as opposed to the act of fracking itself.  The military industrial complex?  Not going away, and Biden isn't going to be pushed on it.  Health care?  Nope.  Probably shouldn't even get into rent relief or UBI or anything of that nature.  

Edit:  And that machine has been fought for decades.  Dig up some Hunter S quotes about politics in the 70's.  The 'hostile takeover' of the Dems has been attempted to a various degree my whole lifetime.  The only success I recall is Bill Clinton taking the party into full on Republicanism.

A good chunk of Surly is obviously in a position in life where things like this don't matter.  Its demonstrated even in this thread where someone can easily afford to lose a $9k bet (no offense meant).  One of the reasons that white supremacy authoritarian Trump stuff plays so well is that it caters to an uneducated poor.  Trump, for all his idiocy, knows what he can tap into.  He just ran it to his logical conclusion The next Trump, who we are guaranteed after 4 years of a tepid Biden/Harris administration (although they'll probably crank a few more wars out) will probably be a bit more intelligent and thus more dangerous.  If we make it that far.  I'm not really convinced we will as folks continue to slip into the poverty line by the millions. 

And that's perhaps one of the, if not the, most frustrating things about the way it has all played out.   The trumpian dystopia that we're in was the perfect time, imo, for true political revolution.  For real change that could actually help people.  Instead we're going to get the neolibs going back to brunch with Mark Hamil getting to take naps and post cat pics.  And the rest of America in the same damn boat they were in before.

So yeah, imo, its too late.  The money won, and the rest of this is just watching the damn thing sink.  The sinking will ostensibly be slowed down for the next four years.  We'll see. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[bad_teammate 13496]

16 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

The trumpian dystopia that we're in was the perfect time, imo, for true political revolution.  For real change that could actually help people.  Instead we're going to get the neolibs going back to brunch with Mark Hamil getting to take naps and post cat pics.  And the rest of America in the same damn boat they were in before.

So yeah, imo, its too late.  The money won, and the rest of this is just watching the damn thing sink.  The sinking will ostensibly be slowed down for the next four years.

The simple fact that "neolib" is even in the vocabulary of the politically involved should be a sign that the movement isn't just going to die because that burning ball of sharp charisma that is Joseph Robinette Biden is on the scene.

You're allowed to despair once you see something like AOC talking about how private insurance is actually great and that the Green New Deal is too much to ask for. When Ilhan Omar says, "Israel is our most important ally and we need a strong stock market" I'll accept this cowardice.

Until then, gird your loins.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I really like AOC so I'm glad you brought her up. I may not be around by the time she really hits her prime, but man I do hope her generation and the one after it are allowed and encouraged to spread their wings. No offense to you all (of the white males), but I'm a little weary of the old, white puppetmasters (Kochs, et al) and seeing young and upcoming grifters (Jacob Wohl, Charlie Kirk) gets depressing. Why do more people admire the Charlie Kirks and not the other ideals? Sigh.

[washparkhorn 9973]

We got good news on Solar - https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-confirms-iea  (Solar is now the cheapest electricity in history). Sunrise Movement is growing in influence https://www.sunrisemovement.org/?ms=SunriseMovement Hell - even Goldman Sachs wants in on the technology (and money). Once it moves into the economic realm, change will occur.

The key for me is getting the professional managerial class to understand they are a large part of the problem. That's tough because of the money. How many are willing to put a job on the line and say, "we can't do that?" That takes brains and bravery - and timing. Hopefully their kids help them understand there are important issues the PMC can nudge forward and look like a hero. 

Back to tilting at windmills.

 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

36 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

We got good news on Solar - https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-confirms-iea  (Solar is now the cheapest electricity in history). Sunrise Movement is growing in influence https://www.sunrisemovement.org/?ms=SunriseMovement Hell - even Goldman Sachs wants in on the technology (and money). Once it moves into the economic realm, change will occur.

The key for me is getting the professional managerial class to understand they are a large part of the problem. That's tough because of the money. How many are willing to put a job on the line and say, "we can't do that?" That takes brains and bravery - and timing. Hopefully their kids help them understand there are important issues the PMC can nudge forward and look like a hero. 

Back to tilting at windmills.

 

Maybe if you get your way literally instead of figuratively. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

I haven't completely given up, btw.  Just trying to figure out where I put my real efforts (not online posting and whinging).  It is just discouraging to see much of what I see out there.  

 

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:08 AM, Mrs Whiggins said:

I really like AOC so I'm glad you brought her up. I may not be around by the time she really hits her prime, but man I do hope her generation and the one after it are allowed and encouraged to spread their wings. No offense to you all (of the white males), but I'm a little weary of the old, white puppetmasters (Kochs, et al) and seeing young and upcoming grifters (Jacob Wohl, Charlie Kirk) gets depressing. Why do more people admire the Charlie Kirks and not the other ideals? Sigh.

Whoa, are you like 80?

Edited October 29, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

On 10/28/2020 at 7:54 AM, bad_teammate said:

simple fact that "neolib" is even in the vocabulary of the politically involved should be a sign that the movement isn't just going to die because that burning ball of sharp charisma that is Joseph Robinette Biden is on the scene.

If the left wants to grow it needs to do a better job of articulating what neoliberalism means and why it’s problematic instead of just throwing the jargon around as a pejorative to virtue signal to other leftists. 

JMO

[bad_teammate 13496]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If the left wants to grow it needs to do a better job of articulating what neoliberalism means and why it’s problematic instead of just throwing the jargon around as a pejorative to virtue signal to other leftists.

That is your only exposure to the word, but that's not the full story of how it is used. Don't confuse your individual experience for the whole world.

It's definitely a word being pulled out of economic philosophy and moving into the larger cultural market, but that's always going to be somewhat niche. But it wasn't invented by Tumblr blue-hairs.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

That is your only exposure to the word, but that's not the full story of how it is used.

Yes, that is precisely the basis of my criticism.  

[bad_teammate 13496]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yes, that is precisely the basis of my criticism.  

Still doesn't make sense as anything but a self-criticism.

The mass media is not going to examine the concept so it's not coming through your TV or radio. You self-select what you consume online, so you're in combative places, not educational places of your own volition. You have to actively seek online stuff out, so if you seek out conflict you find it. If you don't seek out education you won't find it.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

20 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Whoa, are you like 80?

Cancer. It's a matter of playing the odds. Once you've been staged at a certain level it's a waiting game.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Still doesn't make sense as anything but a self-criticism.

The mass media is not going to examine the concept so it's not coming through your TV or radio. You self-select what you consume online, so you're in combative places, not educational places of your own volition. You have to actively seek online stuff out, so if you seek out conflict you find it. If you don't seek out education you won't find it.

Yeah, it is self criticism.  We fucking suck at messaging. All I’m saying is the left needs to do a better job of meeting people where they are and messaging to normies. This isn’t a controversial view and I am aware of the challenges in the media spaces. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

57 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Cancer. It's a matter of playing the odds. Once you've been staged at a certain level it's a waiting game.

Oh I'm so sorry!

[burntorangebongos 10826]

Sorry to hear it, Mrs Whiggins. Get a big dildo, one that would make NowThis drool and fuck cancer in the ass. You got this! 

Edited October 29, 2020 by burntorangebongos

[TheStoicPaisano 9953]

Sanctimonious prick Greenwald quits the Intercept. Probably the wrong thread but he doesn’t deserve his own.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

51 minutes ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

he doesn’t deserve his own.

This is true

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[washparkhorn 9973]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If the left wants to grow it needs to do a better job of articulating what neoliberalism means and why it’s problematic instead of just throwing the jargon around as a pejorative to virtue signal to other leftists. 

JMO

Neoliberal economic and foreign policy has dominated the United States since the 1970's - and yet few in the United States understand the economic term. In a nutshell - it's trickle down. Why don't average citizens understand the term - public education under neoliberal policies has suffered. If Elizabeth Warren can understand the problem, so can her supporters.

 

 

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Oh I'm so sorry!

No worries, I forget that not everyone knows that was why I stopped lurking and joined. Surly was a much needed jolt to the senses that the world keeps on turning and that Surly humor is a unique magical thing. Came for the laughs, stayed for the conversation and dog/food pics.

Anyway, things are good. No more scans for awhile so let's get back on topic.

Going to take me awhile to wade through more lessons. (oh, some folks don't like Chomsky; I think he's a good read--but I spent more time with his early communication stuff than anything else as that was what we were doing at the time and it's been awhile, way too long and I need to return to that and get back up to speed).

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

20 hours ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

Sanctimonious prick Greenwald quits the Intercept. Probably the wrong thread but he doesn’t deserve his own.

 

Greenwald woke me up to a lot of things back in the day.  His coverage of our drone bombing campaigns on salon.com at the time was hard to find anywhere else.  He had many good points on the NYT and other mainstream outlets and our run up to an illegal and unnecessary war, the damage of which haunts us (and continues) to this day.   I didn't keep up as much when he left salon and went to the Guardian.  I also don't have cable so I don't see him when he shows up on it (apparently mostly on Fox).   But I've caught him in some podcasts here and there and he's an intelligent debater for sure.  Arrogant, sure.  

I'm not adding much to the point with the Intercept.  I never read it much, and like I said, quit following Greenwald as much although I'm checking out some of his stuff again I guess thanks to the circus.   I need to read more on both sides if I care to get involved, but arguments about the personalities involved in our media coverage these days sure seem fruitless as opposed to the actual issues these personalities are or are not bringing to our attention.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath
i need a thesaurus

[David Dennison 19519]

19 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This is true

 

All of these people have something in common. I can't quite put my finger on it.

[SizzleChest 8313]

Greenwald slurping up Assange was the giveaway.

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

https://therealnews.com/democrats-fought-to-keep-the-green-party-off-ballots

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/08/24/gree-a24.html

Those are admittedly biased sources, so let's get that out of the way.  Angela Walker (from first link) is the Green Party VP candidate.

Some less socialist style sources:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/pennsylvania-supreme-court-removes-green-party-presidential-candidate-from-ballot/ar-BB199p77

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/08/19/texas-democrats-green-party-november/

 

This is happening in multiple areas.  The Democrats often make the point that publicly Republicans admit to not wanting more people to vote.  That Republicans want to limit your choice.  Republicans want to limit demcrocacy. 

Then the Dems turn around and effectively work to limit choices and affect ballot access for current and future elections.  Hmm.  

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Greenwald went off the reservation during the 2016 election and never recovered.  He started pushing deep state conspiracy shit and denying Russian interference while it was going on, effectively making him a useful idiot, at a minimum.  His talking points aligned so well with what Russia was putting out I, wrongly and without evidence, suspected he might have been working with them.

 My final conclusion on Greenwald is that his worldview seems to be that of a postmodern revolutionary accelerationist but also on the grift with all the Fox News spots.  He’s going out like Lou Dobbs. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

2 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

Greenwald slurping up Assange was the giveaway.

 

You think Assange should go to jail for life?  Have you kept up?