The Surly Beginner Guitar Thread

[G650 14421]

5 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

650 has no drip 

No rizz for sure, but plenty of drip.

[Rimbo 26853]

8 hours ago, G650 said:

This is good advice, except I would say use no reverb whatsoever.

You definitely don't want a big hall reverb.

The amount I'm using is very small. I'd say the amount is about the same amount as the normal acoustic reverb from my cello or from a piano. It's just enough to make it sound like a real instrument.

[G650 14421]

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

real instrument

[Rimbo 26853]

19 minutes ago, G650 said:

<== Pretentious Snob here.

I know what I am. I own it.

Edited November 24 by Rimbo

[G650 14421]

16 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

<== Pretentious Snob here.

I know what I am. I own it.

I mean, speaking as someone who started in school band in 4th grade and played through Orchestra in college (and only graduated because of music and computer classes), the electric guitar is about the realest instrument going.

[Rimbo 26853]

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

I mean, speaking as someone who started in school band in 4th grade and played through Orchestra in college (and only graduated because of music and computer classes), the electric guitar is about the realest instrument going.

Not the way I play it, it ain't. 🤣🤣🤣

[G650 14421]

10 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Not the way I play it, it ain't. 🤣🤣🤣

Well, I'm with you there homie!

[tbone_ 14409]

I disagree with your point about having to play more precisely with the dirt/gain up. That shit will cover up all kinds of sloppiness.

You wanna get precise? Plug a Tele straight in to clean fender tube amp and practice that way.

[Chad Fuck 18090]

So despite my utter Dad failure in our initial father son guitar teaching episode during Covid which I likely lamented somewhere on these pages, Jr has begun repeatedly mentioning learning guitar out of nowhere. Back then we were using Fenderplay, which I thought was pretty good.

Have any learning players here found other online options they like for lessons?

[Gourmand 7778]

On 11/26/2024 at 9:01 AM, Chad Fuck said:

So despite my utter Dad failure in our initial father son guitar teaching episode during Covid which I likely lamented somewhere on these pages, Jr has begun repeatedly mentioning learning guitar out of nowhere. Back then we were using Fenderplay, which I thought was pretty good.

Have any learning players here found other online options they like for lessons?

Guitar Gate.

Heavy emphasis at the beginning on learned the CAGED system with a good mix of technique, tricks, and theory interspersed. I highly recommend Michael Palmisano's course, he's pretty good. 

Another online instructor who I really like for his musical tastes and youtube shorts is Eric Haugen. I've looked into buying one of his courses but haven't tried it yet because I'm not sure which one I want since I have a full lifetime membership at GuitarGate and have all the bases covered. There's A LOT of content I haven't yet explored.

[Gourmand 7778]

On 11/22/2024 at 4:31 PM, Rimbo said:

When in doubt, play the melody as your solo. Then you can start adding in color here and there. Sometimes the wrong note, now and then, is the right one.

True true. One great tip I learned recently is no matter what you're playing or what key you're playing in, you are never more than one fret away from the right note. So now when I make a mistake and hit a note that just doesn't fit, I try not to overcorrect and panic thinking I'm way off-shape but simply move one fret up or down and will find a note that fits.

[tbone_ 14409]

Guitar Gate.
Heavy emphasis at the beginning on learned the CAGED system with a good mix of technique, tricks, and theory interspersed. I highly recommend Michael Palmisano's course, he's pretty good. 
Another online instructor who I really like for his musical tastes and youtube shorts is Eric Haugen. I've looked into buying one of his courses but haven't tried it yet because I'm not sure which one I want since I have a full lifetime membership at GuitarGate and have all the bases covered. There's A LOT of content I haven't yet explored.

I dig Palmisano’s reaction videos. Unreal to watch him figure shit out and explain it on the fly.

[tbone_ 14409]

[G650 14421]

I've always loved the fact this song was essentially the Sanford and Son theme song.

[Gil Bang 26176]

 

[sidis 9990]

On 11/23/2024 at 6:59 PM, Rimbo said:

A bit of advice.

When learning the cello, I got mixed advice on how to play loudly. Phyllis Young at UT told me to play as loudly as possible, so that you hear your mistakes; other teachers taught me to practice at the volume I intend to perform at. In that case, both my own judgment/experience -- and the stellar performing/careers of the others -- made me decide to practice at the volume I intend to perform at.

Something I've noticed on the guitar -- since my goal is to mostly be doing things at extreme amounts of gain -- is that I have to be FAR more accurate and deliberate with the gain/distortion cranked than I do playing clean/acoustic. And since I'm typically practicing with high gain, I've had to develop more accurate left-hand techniques and much better muting than I ever did when I was just playing acoustic. Not only that, but when I do switch to clean channel/acoustic sounds, it's much easier to play that way.

Also: Shut off all the effects, too, except for maybe a wee bit of reverb. Chorus is going to disguise when you're out of tune, gating is going to mask small errors you make, delay... fuckin' seriously? Yeah, you may record with all those things, but when you're practicing, you don't want effects to hide your mistakes.

i don't know if this is just your regularly scheduled insane rimbo stuff or if you are just drunk but wtf are you talking about? extremely high gain/distortion means you can basically just do whatever the fuck you want to the guitar including just slapping your dick against the neck and it is just going to sound like you're rocking out. things like fucked up barre chords and more exotic chords sound a thousand times "better" in that scenario then with a clean signal chain or an acoustic.

[G650 14421]

14 minutes ago, sidis said:

slapping your dick against the neck and it is just going to sound like you're rocking out

Don't give away my trade secrets bro.

[locodos 5583]

22 minutes ago, sidis said:

i don't know if this is just your regularly scheduled insane rimbo stuff or if you are just drunk but wtf are you talking about? extremely high gain/distortion means you can basically just do whatever the fuck you want to the guitar including just slapping your dick against the neck and it is just going to sound like you're rocking out. things like fucked up barre chords and more exotic chords sound a thousand times "better" in that scenario then with a clean signal chain or an acoustic.

You've got a long strap, or a long strap!

[sidis 9990]

if you've never used your erect penis to barre while playing a nice little c minor chord progression from a Cm into an Bb back to an f, you're just gettin' busy dyin'.

Edited December 4 by sidis

[Rimbo 26853]

6 hours ago, sidis said:

i don't know if this is just your regularly scheduled insane rimbo stuff or if you are just drunk but wtf are you talking about? extremely high gain/distortion means you can basically just do whatever the fuck you want to the guitar including just slapping your dick against the neck and it is just going to sound like you're rocking out. things like fucked up barre chords and more exotic chords sound a thousand times "better" in that scenario then with a clean signal chain or an acoustic.

Question: What drugs were you on when you wrote this, and are the drugs still in your system?

Of course it sounds like you're "rocking out." What it does NOT sound like is clean, legato, proper phrasing if you're working on something like that, etc. But particularly when you're warming up, doing technique builders, if you're playing to make sure you don't hear ANY extraneous noise, that each note cleanly ends just as the next one begins, especially when switching strings. We're talking about the things you do to improve your technique, not "rocking out."

Try to play something melodic, legato, and with phrasing while you've got the gain to thrash metal levels. Like the melody for "I'd like to teach the world to sing." Or even just a scale. Only notes, no finger shifting noises, no random strings going off, and with interpretation.

Edited December 4 by Rimbo

[sidis 9990]

2 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Question: What drugs were you on when you wrote this, and are the drugs still in your system?

Of course it sounds like you're "rocking out." What it does NOT sound like is clean, legato, proper phrasing if you're working on something like that, etc. But particularly when you're warming up, doing technique builders, if you're playing to make sure you don't hear ANY extraneous noise, that each note cleanly ends just as the next one begins, especially when switching strings. We're talking about the things you do to improve your technique, not "rocking out."

Try to play something melodic, legato, and with phrasing while you've got the gain to thrash metal levels. Like the melody for "I'd like to teach the world to sing." Or even just a scale. Only notes, no finger shifting noises, no random strings going off, and with interpretation.

so, if i have this right, you're attempting to practice and play clean, legato guitar phrases and expressions with gain and distortion pedals on thrash metal levels? you're trying to play eric johnson and mark knopfler's music with david mustaine's signal chain while retaining its clean melodic expression?

you know what's really hard to do, man? play a violin with a drumstick. have you ever tried that? i mean, i think i have the col legnos, spiccatos, staccatos, and ricochets down but you have to be world class exceptional to get a good detache, sul tasto, and legato bow strokes to make that stradivarius sing like an angel with a drumstic for a bow.  for my next trick, i will train myself to reach art blakey levels of jazz drumming by practicing with q-tips.

[Rimbo 26853]

9 minutes ago, sidis said:

so, if i have this right, you're attempting to practice and play clean, legato guitar phrases and expressions with gain and distortion pedals on thrash metal levels? you're trying to play eric johnson and mark knopfler's music with david mustaine's signal chain while retaining its clean melodic expression?

you know what's really hard to do, man? play a violin with a drumstick. have you ever tried that? i mean, i think i have the col legnos, spiccatos, staccatos, and ricochets down but you have to be world class exceptional to get a good detache, sul tasto, and legato bow strokes to make that stradivarius sing like an angel with a drumstic for a bow.  for my next trick, i will train myself to reach art blakey levels of jazz drumming by practicing with q-tips.

Are you working hard to be this stupid, or does it just come naturally and effortlessly?

Yes, that's what I'm doing, because then, when I DO turn the gain down, my technique is better; I've gained greater conscious control of my fingers on both hands and what they're doing.

I'm doing this for fun, but it's more fun if I'm better at it, so I don't mind putting a little effort in, here and there.

Edited December 4 by Rimbo

[G650 14421]

This is some wild shit

[G650 14421]

Even by Rimbo standards I should add.

[sidis 9990]

18 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Are you working hard to be this stupid, or does it just come naturally and effortlessly?

Yes, that's what I'm doing, because then, when I DO turn the gain down, my technique is better; I've gained greater conscious control of my fingers on both hands and what they're doing.

I'm doing this for fun, but it's more fun if I'm better at it, so I don't mind putting a little effort in, here and there.

like i said, do your thing...whatever is fun for you and helps you improve.

for my part, i'm going to go practice my paradiddles on my snare with yarn tonight.

[Rimbo 26853]

I don't understand why this is so difficult for y'all to grasp. This is basic elementary school shit: When you're warming up, when you're doing technique builders, when you practice, you do things to make yourself better at it; you don't just "play the notes," unless you're content with sounding like ass the whole time.

Technique builders (such as: play "I'd like to teach the world to sing" legato, no notes, with the gain cranked) are shortcuts to getting better at everything faster. Though it's not really a "short cut" to do so; it is more accurate to say you're doing focused effort.

@sidis ridiculous ideas of practicing paradiddles with yarn won't work because there's no parallel to the technique of hitting a drum with yarn. There IS a parallel to playing a soft piece loudly. It's normal basic shit I'm describing here, nothing wild or weird.

I'm not telling y'all some weird or novel thing that I invented -- I didn't invent it, it's not novel, it's not even weird. This is something ALL the good musicians that you look up to (and the ones you don't know about but probably SHOULD look up to) already know about and do daily.

[G650 14421]

Lmao. You have to be drunk

[Rimbo 26853]

[G650 14421]

How to sound like a better guitarist than you actually are.

 

Step 1) Increase gain.

Step 2) Increase reverb.

 

[tigol 2467]

Dude. Rimbo.

You cray.

I think we all understand what you are talking about.

[sidis 9990]

15 hours ago, Rimbo said:

I don't understand why this is so difficult for y'all to grasp. This is basic elementary school shit: When you're warming up, when you're doing technique builders, when you practice, you do things to make yourself better at it; you don't just "play the notes," unless you're content with sounding like ass the whole time.

Technique builders (such as: play "I'd like to teach the world to sing" legato, no notes, with the gain cranked) are shortcuts to getting better at everything faster. Though it's not really a "short cut" to do so; it is more accurate to say you're doing focused effort.

@sidis ridiculous ideas of practicing paradiddles with yarn won't work because there's no parallel to the technique of hitting a drum with yarn. There IS a parallel to playing a soft piece loudly. It's normal basic shit I'm describing here, nothing wild or weird.

I'm not telling y'all some weird or novel thing that I invented -- I didn't invent it, it's not novel, it's not even weird. This is something ALL the good musicians that you look up to (and the ones you don't know about but probably SHOULD look up to) already know about and do daily.

like i said yesterday dude, if you are playing and practicing guitar and enjoying it, i have no criticisms to offer of how you spend that time. do your thing.

all joking aside, while i am not a great guitarist, i am a reasonably competent one. and to any beginners that are utilizing this thread as a resource, i think it is important that they understand that there is an enormous difference between someone advocating for practicing their practicing/playing a clean signal loud to better reveal opportunities to improve their technique (which is a totally valid point) versus someone advocating for practicing/playing with extreme levels of gain and distortion on the signal chain to reveal those same issues. you are going to substantially hide your weaknesses (particularly in chords) in that context. speaking at even the most basic levels, playing a traditional b or f chord and making it sound good on an acoustic or a clean tele plugged into a huge tube amp turned up to 10 is substantially harder than making a b or f sound good with the same guitar running through a tube screamer, a distortion pedal, and a fuzz pedal to an amp turned up to 10. while hyperbolic with my application of penile scenarios, it wasn't that far off. with that signal chain, you can just slam your hand against the neck and it can sound like "hell yeah."

perhaps you were just loose with your language and all you meant was practicing loud can more easily lead to identifying weaknesses and improvement which i 100% agree with. but there is a difference between that and practicing with a thrash metal signal chain in order to identify nuanced technique issues.

do your thing. make some music.

[Chad Fuck 18090]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

How to sound like a better guitarist than you actually are.

 

Step 1) Increase gain.

Step 2) Increase reverb.

 

Sprinkle with delay.

[Rimbo 26853]

1 hour ago, sidis said:

i think it is important that they understand that there is an enormous difference between someone advocating for practicing their practicing/playing a clean signal loud to better reveal opportunities to improve their technique (which is a totally valid point)

And that's all I'm really advocating for. I don't know where you're getting the rest of the shit you went off on.

 

What I've found, personally, is that I'm susceptible to sloppy movements in my fingers. At high gain, every little movement becomes loud; since the hardest thing for me at this stage is to play clearly and cleanly, trying to play a simple melody at high gain means I have to have nearly every movement perfect to make it sound the way I want it to.

As for chords... perhaps my hearing is just that different from yours. Or my signal chain -- a direct line into VSTs, into my studio monitors or headphones -- is just different enough.

[sidis 9990]

3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

And that's all I'm really advocating for. I don't know where you're getting the rest of the shit you went off on.

probably from you saying:

On 11/23/2024 at 6:59 PM, Rimbo said:

A bit of advice.

is that I have to be FAR more accurate and deliberate with the gain/distortion cranked than I do playing clean/acoustic.

that is different than what i said. as i said, you were loose with your language but it matters. gain is not the same as volume...particularly on a tube amp. and distortion certainly is not.

[G650 14421]

20 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

And that's all I'm really advocating for.

By calling people stupid and saying they are on drugs when they are pointing out what you said doesn't make sense?

 

22 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Or my signal chain -- a direct line into VSTs, into my studio monitors or headphones -- is just different enough.

This has nothing to do with it.

 

As @sidis mentioned, you should play however it makes you happy, as that's what it's all about, but the main reason people are pointing this out is because it's the beginner thread and it doesn't need misinformation in it. High gain and distortion cover technique issues up, it's just basic physics of what happens to the waveform of the sound, it's not a debatable topic.

[Rimbo 26853]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

By calling people stupid and saying they are on drugs when they are pointing out what you said doesn't make sense?

You do know what site we're on, don't you?

Besides. You and sidis started it. I only did that AFTER y'all did your thing.

1 hour ago, sidis said:

that is different than what i said. as i said, you were loose with your language but it matters. gain is not the same as volume...particularly on a tube amp. and distortion certainly is not.

Then we really are in different worlds, because if I don't have the gain up, then the mistakes I need to hear are completely inaudible, or buried so deeply underneath everything that they can't be heard.

 

Edited December 5 by Rimbo

[Goredho 17627]

This thread makes me want to learn to play the kazoo.

[Goredho 17627]

[G650 14421]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

So how is the kazoo playing progressing.

[Goredho 17627]

8 minutes ago, G650 said:

So how is the kazoo playing progressing.

Are you trying to make the naughty list?

[G650 14421]

8 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Are you trying to make the naughty list?

Bro I'm trying to top the naughty list!

 

It's funny on the metronome thing though, being a band geek I obviously came up with one as a kid, but then promptly rejected that square shit as I was gonna be a rock star. But lately I have added clicks to a lot of the stuff we are recording as it's done piecemeal and not all live, been a big help. And use a metronome for my drum practice.

[Goredho 17627]

14 minutes ago, G650 said:

Bro I'm trying to top the naughty list!

 

It's funny on the metronome thing though, being a band geek I obviously came up with one as a kid, but then promptly rejected that square shit as I was gonna be a rock star. But lately I have added clicks to a lot of the stuff we are recording as it's done piecemeal and not all live, been a big help. And use a metronome for my drum practice.

Yeah, I mean, you can go the opposite way and be so perfectly aligned to a grid that it sounds inhuman, like it's all quantized.  And some recordings really benefit from not having a click track to keep people locked on a grid.  The looseness can be part of what makes the song.

That said, I think most beginners would benefit from more practice on timing.  Better to be tight and capable of looseness vs just being sloppy and incapable of tightness.  I still practice alternate picking against a metronome (or just my foot tapping) playing 8th notes, triplets and 16th notes at various tempos.  Finger style, too.

One and, two and, three and...

Trip-L-It, Trip-L-It, Trip-L-It...

Wa-ter-mel-on, wa-ter-mel-on, wa-ter-mel-on...

And practice placing emphasis at different syllables.  "WAT er mel on", then "wat ER mel on", then "wat er MEL on" and "wat er mel ON".  Muting the un-emphasized notes.  It get's your playing tight.

[G650 14421]

2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Yeah, I mean, you can go the opposite way and be so perfectly aligned to a grid that it sounds inhuman, like it's all quantized.

Definitely no danger of that from me!

 

I agree though, I think for beginners it pretty important just to learn how to count. And I recommend doing it way slower than most would do it, learning to lay behind the beat is critical for feel.

 

One album that is not remotely on the grid that would surprise some, AC/DC Back in Black. The tempo wanders massively and it sounds amazing.

[Goredho 17627]

Just now, G650 said:

Definitely no danger of that from me!

 

I agree though, I think for beginners it pretty important just to learn how to count. And I recommend doing it way slower than most would do it, learning to lay behind the beat is critical for feel.

 

One album that is not remotely on the grid that would surprise some, AC/DC Back in Black. The tempo wanders massively and it sounds amazing.

Yeah, with the exercise I outlined, accuracy is more important than speed.  Start at 50bpm if necessary to be accurate.  Then as that becomes comfortable, bump it up to 55 and so on.  Eventually you are capable of keeping time fast.  Its just a matter of reps.

I actually find it harder to play slow than fast.  Like, you can play a blurry line over a 130bpm and the brain can't really process that oh you are off time by 10%.  10% off at a tempo of 65 is fucking noticeable.

Make sure to crank the gain so you can hear how shitty your timing is *ducks and runs for cover*

[G650 14421]

1 minute ago, Goredho said:

actually find it harder to play slow than fast.

100%, exactly why I say that.

 

2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Make sure to crank the gain so you can hear how shitty your timing is *ducks and runs for cover*

You sonofabitch.