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Joe Rogan moves to Spotify for over $100 million

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ztejas

ztejas 43454

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9 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Sorry, pet peeve triggeration. “I wasn’t trying to accuse you, even though I just accused you.” If it didn’t matter you wouldn’t call attention to it. Fucking jesus I hate when people act like that. 
 

Well... I didn't technically accuse her. I asked a question and then explained why I asked that question. She answered no and I beleived her. 

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9836

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Even though the chemical treatment may degrade physical attributes, to what level and how that applies to each individual and their situation (when did treatment start, pre-treatment body/training etc) is still an unknown.  How much treatment does Rafa need to get down to Serena’s level (who just last year admitted she can’t even return the top men’s serve let alone compete with them - it’s basically an different sport at that level). How much treatment would JJ Watt need to safely fairly compete with female athletes?  These are questions have not even begun to be answered and most of the guidelines by from sports organizations are based on Social Justice, not science. 
 

Sports has always tried to prevent using chemical enhancements to further performance, here we are trying to gauge the correct amount of chemical handicap necessary to allow the biological female a level playing field. It would vary individual to individual, and we have no real way of knowing if the playing field is truly ever level. 
 

The NCAA’s opinion is meaningless. They operate from a public relations basis only, Not fairness to female athletes. That is what it is ultimately about, fairness for ALL female athletes. 
 

Like the high school female track athletes in Connecticut who filed a lawsuit. They are being denied opportunities for awards and possible scholarships. These girls deserve the same opportunity they fought to have in the first place (T9)  

 


Three female high school runners in Connecticut have filed a federal lawsuit seeking to block transgender athletes from participating in girls’ sports.

Holcomb is representing high school track athletes Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell and Alanna Smith — all of whom allege they have suffered since CIAC first implemented its policy in 2017 allowing athletes with male anatomy to compete alongside girls, the Connecticut Post reports.


As a result, two athletes born “biologically male” have “taken 12 women’s state championship titles” previously held by nine different girls, Holcomb said.

https://nypost.com/2020/02/13/connecticut-girls-sue-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-high-school-sports/
 

and Rogan specifically took issue with a transgender female MMA fighter who nearly beat her biologically female opponent to death.  He feels it was an unfair and unsafe situation.

 

 

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troph

troph 24810

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Those Connecticut athletes had not started medical/hormone treatment or transition. Apples and oranges dude. I don’t have an issue with keeping athletes who have not undergone medical treatment out of competition in the gender they identify with once puberty starts. It sucks but life isn’t fair. Transition then compete. It’s the hand you’re dealt, you don’t have to like it but if you’re going to play, then play it.

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ztejas

ztejas 43454

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11 minutes ago, troph said:


I’ll speak up when I god damned feel like it.

I don't feel like our discussion has been political at all. And if it has it's been cordial by Surly standards. 

16 minutes ago, troph said:

Transition then compete.

I think this is where we'll end up at at some point. What I wonder about are the structural differences that you can't change with hormones. For example, wider shoulders and thinner waists in a sport like swimming. Even if you address the testosterone/muscle mass differences it seems like someone with a more advantageous build would have an unfair advantage.

When it comes to pre-op or people not wanting to engage in hormone therapy then I feel like we can easily make where you compete about sex and not gender. So if you are a pre-op trans female that wants to compete you can compete against sexual males as a gendered female. Obviously that raises other issues such as locker rooms etc. but there are already plenty of gay guys participating in team sports. People can figure it out and get over it. It's not hard.

 

Edited by ztejas
Apologies if I got any verbiage wrong, being as PC as I can off the top of my head
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troph

troph 24810

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if you're willing to be open minded about this, I know dick carrying men will find this incomprehensible but having a penis doesn't really matter here if you go by hormone levels.  In fact, fatigue/tiredness/brain fog is a common side effect of the number one used testosterone blocker - hardly a competitive advantage.  And I can tell you from experience, it was bad enough that I paused and reconsidered the mental health bullshit I had to deal with before with the loss of energy.  it sucked.  That drug is a sledgehammer.  Along the same lines, I don't think many cisgender men really appreciate how potent a complete 180 on hormones is for a human.  I could probably list 100 effects of that 180 in 5 minutes, the only real limitation being the speed at which I could type.  bone density does drop, blood ox levels drop, muscle mass drops, fat accumulation increases, all the things that "common sense" tells Rogan don't happen do happen.  The question is how long must a trans athlete wait?  For me it doesn't really matter, I'm pushing 6 years in.  I work my ass off to be in shape (5-7 hours a week of hard workouts) and I am relatively strong but there are women on the tennis court easily as athletic as I am, and the younger ones even more so.  and I was stronger, much stronger as a sit on the couch, drink beer, do nothing man.  Yeah that's anecdotal but it's disingenuous for people to come on here and say, "well common sense this, common sense that" and then dismiss my common sense personal experience and that of thousands of other trans women (transitioned) who are competitors.

I have no issue with science based decisions and if that carries the day for letting trans women compete then great, that's not political correctness.  The IOC had hearings, they heard from scientists, they took in the information and believed it in the best interest of competition to allow transitioned athletes to compete.  That's not a bad thing.  It's not bad because they established requirements that work.  Now between us, I think 1 year isn't long enough.  Frankly I don't understand how anyone transitioning can compete the first year, there is way too much other crap going on to be competing anyway.

and if we go by testosterone levels, what do you do about high testosterone women?  What about intersex women?  the track star from South Africa?  You are all talking extreme outliers so the other outliers matter here too.  You can't talk about a handful of trans athletes and extrapolate to the whole without talking about the other extremes too.  As for shoulders, and waists and all of that.  I mean whatever, if you really want to get into those weeds.  Female bodies are pretty damn diverse, I know men see fatties and hotties but there are 7 feet tall cisgender women and there are women that can out muscle many men as well.  At some point we have to recognize that gender based divisions are at best an approximation.  it's why in some competitions we also add weight classes as well.  we can't zero in and get it perfect when it never was perfect to begin with.

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ztejas

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44 minutes ago, troph said:

Yeah that's anecdotal but it's disingenuous for people to come on here and say, "well common sense this, common sense that" and then dismiss my common sense personal experience and that of thousands of other trans women (transitioned) who are competitors.

Take a step back. I never said "common sense" anything. I also don't find any of this "incomprehensible".

44 minutes ago, troph said:

As for shoulders, and waists and all of that.  I mean whatever, if you really want to get into those weeds.  Female bodies are pretty damn diverse, I know men see fatties and hotties but there are 7 feet tall cisgender women and there are women that can out muscle many men as well.

I understand what you're saying about outliers - but outliers are outliers. It matters more when looking at professional athletes, and less when considering high school or college athletes. I probably think the average difference in physical build is more different than you do. You would be very, very hard pressed to find a woman as tall as me with shoulders as broad as mine. Maybe Candace Parker? But she's one of the best WNBA players ever. Girls trying to make it to the D1 level in college basketball or volleyball would fucking kill for my body. It's night and day compared to almost all women. And I'm not some Adonis-built jewel of mankind. 

6'3" is tall for the WNBA. 6'3" is about as short as you can be to have a realistic shot at making the NBA. There are very few women taller than 6 feet to begin with. There are not any cisgender women 7 feet tall that don't suffer from serious hormone imbalances (like unhealthy ones that kill you before you're 35). Sandy Allen is the only recorded 7 foot female that made it to 50. A lot of them die in their teens. I understand that's being nitpicky but just wanted to clarify that.

Height is not an advantage that goes away with hormone therapy when looking at sports like basketball, volleyball, swimming. And that's very important to consider regardless of transition hormones being taken. 

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troph

troph 24810

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other posters have relied on "common sense" and frankly that's Rogan's approach too.  I agree you did not say as much.  Frankly, I have been pleasantly surprised by the conversation between you and me.  and my only point about outliers is if you are going to point to outliers with trans women, then we have to deal with outlier high testosterone cisgender women too and you get into other outliers as well.  there simply becomes a point where the bifurcation based on gender isn't perfect, it never was, never will be.  again it's why we have weight classes in combative sports and weight lifting, etc.  and I think it's inappropriate to DQ a tall trans woman simply because she woulda been shorter had she been cisgender.  maybe the outliers but then what a can of worms.  6 foot something excluded?  what happens when a cisgender woman exceeds that height?  the questions can go on and on.  a lot of people will say this is the reason to tell trans women tough luck.  well, maybe, but that's not how our world really works, thankfully.  and I think there is a reasonable, science based approach for inclusion that let's truly transitioned women compete.  and I'll leave it at that.

Edited by troph
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BHMCruiser

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On 8/18/2020 at 2:56 AM, ztejas said:

I don't think you need to be an expert to understand the topic or have an opinion about it.  It's just a matter of being informed or not (and Rogan clearly is - part of his job is studying a professional sport for both men and women). 

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at - but conflating the argument with amateur experiences doesn't really add anything. They're talking about world class athletes on both sides in the video. 

I've never played a game of tennis in my life, so Serena Williams would probably kick my ass. 

probably

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BHMCruiser

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On 8/18/2020 at 3:09 PM, troph said:

if nadal went through five years of transition and had female range hormones then yes Serena might beat [her] head to head.  you have no idea what you're talking about.  Your very question assumes in a really bad way that all Nadal would do is dawn a cute tennis skirt and while that may make the gay boys (at least some) a bit more hot and bothered it doesn't make him trans.  and this idea that cisgender women athletes are getting dominated by trans women doesn't show up in the facts.  There are a few top notch trans athletes but by and large the domination you and Rogan claim isn’t there. it's just not there.  you care about it, but it's not happening.  your common sense approach is dripping with misinformation and a lack of knowledge on the subject.  it really is.  

and your empathy?  the first time I need it from you I'll ask.  

So a trans athlete should undergo five years of transition and hormone therapy before competing against biological women?

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BHMCruiser

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23 hours ago, troph said:

that's not happening though.  and under the Rogan hypothesis there is no way a trans woman can be a winner without it being attributed to her past - sorry but that's all kinds of fucked up misogyny.  doesn't matter what the NCAA says, or what the IOC says, or USTA or WTA or anyone.  and under his hypothesis it's happening all the time, and the continued threat of it is so great we have to deal with it now.

 

he could easily lose 25-35% of this strength, maybe more.  I bet I can't bench 100 pounds maybe not even 85 pounds and I'm in great shape (I have a hard time with reps with 20 lb dumbells).  He would have no less than a 12-18 month recovery process from surgery after several years of losing muscle mass in a slow decline.  He would have to start completely over on performance training and he would not have the same endurance, he would not have the same stamina, he might have issues with fatigue, hell he might have issues with depression, anxiety and other issues that come with transition due to the shit he'd endure.  As for his training, that's not testosterone, that's work ethic, coaching, focus and dedication and if you really want to sit here and claim male superiority on training well, I don't know what to tell you. That's bullshit.

and just comparing serve power as a proxy - she's at 128 mph max serve, he's at 136 mph.  There's no way he holds a drastic competitive advantage over her in the power department after 5 years of transition including 12-18 months off from tennis to transition physically.

Calling concern about the effect trans athletes competing will have on biological females "misogyny" really kind of tips this whole thing on its side.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9836

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6 hours ago, troph said:

 I think there is a reasonable, science based approach for inclusion that let's truly transitioned women compete. 

There is no science that can definitively state that x amount of hormone treatment + y amount of time handicaps a Trans athlete to a level playing field.  What level are we shooting for?  Using the tennis example.. Do we handicap Rafa to Serena's level or to the the average top 150 woman's player?

What scientific formula says that this athlete has taken enough of a handicap to compete with her peers on a level playing field?

1539727776390.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

Maybe one day the science can clearly define and manipulate this, but that is not today.  What science has proven is that both average and the top 1% of biological men have on average larger muscle mass, o2 capacity, bone density, height, reflexes etc etc.  Sure there are extreme outliers, but science has shown this to be true with decades of evidence to confirm.  Olympic records also show this, there are no swimming, running, throwing or jumping world records held by women that surpass the men's world records .  This is also assuming that there will be no legal supplements that athletes may be able to use to mitigate the effects of the hormone therapy etc.

We would also be naive to think that there will not be marginal male athletes in sports who would take the opportunity to make a living playing sports in a woman's league.  Top female tennis players make millions, same with golf, the WNBA and women's soccer make 6 figures, the temptation would be too great.  Maybe not right away, but money is money and it will happen.

Men's sports should be "open" and simply available for the best of the best.  Stop calling it men's and remove the stigma and move on.  Trans female athletes should never be denied the opportunity to compete in men's competition ( I know there are some states/organizations where this is simply not allowed - that should change).

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ztejas

ztejas 43454

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I don't understand why people feel the need to come into a thread they aren't participating in and tell people to take the discussion elsewhere.

You arent part of the discussion. Nothing else is being posted here that anyone needs to keep up with. Just don't read the thread. I dont go into the CR and say "would you guys quit talking about Trump in here! Take it to the recruiting board!"

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shadow_operative

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1 hour ago, ztejas said:

I don't understand why people feel the need to come into a thread they aren't participating in and tell people to take the discussion elsewhere.

You arent part of the discussion. Nothing else is being posted here that anyone needs to keep up with. Just don't read the thread. I dont go into the CR and say "would you guys quit talking about Trump in here! Take it to the recruiting board!"

i'm not participating in the thread because you and troph and rex fucking hijacked it, idiot. if i derailed a thread like this with a million interminable walls of text you'd absolutely lose it, and you know it. take your tangential conversation to the appropriate forum and stop whining like such a bitch about being called out for your epic thread derail.

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shadow_operative

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43 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Eat a dick. 

classic Rex. a few months ago you *lost your mind* and went nuts at me for "derailing a thread" when i posted a two sentence response  to something another poster had said verbatim. for you to derail this thread in such spectacular fashion  the way you all have, only to turn around and say "eat a dick" when someone asks you to stop derailing the thread is 100% classic Rex Kramer. I expect absolutel  nothing less from you. 

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PRONG HORN

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2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

 

1539727776390.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

Wow I googled and found out that this trans woman is "winning championships".  How could she even begin to believe that taking the victory from a rightful winner was the right thing to do?  As if women didn't have it bad enough there is some interloper making a joke of their competition.  In a weird way this is just men continuing to fuck over women.

(link ) lots of good propaganda here

 

 

yeah ok dude ...

vrtyjhvety.jpg

 

 

 

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9836

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21 hours ago, troph said:

Those Connecticut athletes had not started medical/hormone treatment or transition. Apples and oranges dude. I don’t have an issue with keeping athletes who have not undergone medical treatment out of competition in the gender they identify with once puberty starts. It sucks but life isn’t fair. Transition then compete. It’s the hand you’re dealt, you don’t have to like it but if you’re going to play, then play it.

I completely agree with this post. The problem with it is you are asking the high school sports board to basically define what a transition for an individual is. They want no part of that (rightfully so, not their place) and would definitely face discrimination lawsuits immediately for doing so. 

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Rougarou

Rougarou 594

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5 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

There is no science that can definitively state that x amount of hormone treatment + y amount of time handicaps a Trans athlete to a level playing field.  What level are we shooting for?  Using the tennis example.. Do we handicap Rafa to Serena's level or to the the average top 150 woman's player?

What scientific formula says that this athlete has taken enough of a handicap to compete with her peers on a level playing field?

1539727776390.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

Maybe one day the science can clearly define and manipulate this, but that is not today.  What science has proven is that both average and the top 1% of biological men have on average larger muscle mass, o2 capacity, bone density, height, reflexes etc etc.  Sure there are extreme outliers, but science has shown this to be true with decades of evidence to confirm.  Olympic records also show this, there are no swimming, running, throwing or jumping world records held by women that surpass the men's world records .  This is also assuming that there will be no legal supplements that athletes may be able to use to mitigate the effects of the hormone therapy etc.

We would also be naive to think that there will not be marginal male athletes in sports who would take the opportunity to make a living playing sports in a woman's league.  Top female tennis players make millions, same with golf, the WNBA and women's soccer make 6 figures, the temptation would be too great.  Maybe not right away, but money is money and it will happen.

Men's sports should be "open" and simply available for the best of the best.  Stop calling it men's and remove the stigma and move on.  Trans female athletes should never be denied the opportunity to compete in men's competition ( I know there are some states/organizations where this is simply not allowed - that should change).

There is something seriously mentally off or wrong with someone who would fake the funk and transition their body/sex organs/gender for competitive or material gains. Something deeper and more drastically wrong that would probably only affect the 1%. I'm talking about cisgender men doing this for gain.

It would be like a cisgender man saying "I'll cut off my penis for maybe the possibility of a $1mm". What sane and rational cisgender man would do that?

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BHMCruiser

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11 hours ago, Rougarou said:

There is something seriously mentally off or wrong with someone who would fake the funk and transition their body/sex organs/gender for competitive or material gains. Something deeper and more drastically wrong that would probably only affect the 1%. I'm talking about cisgender men doing this for gain.

It would be like a cisgender man saying "I'll cut off my penis for maybe the possibility of a $1mm". What sane and rational cisgender man would do that?

what sane and rational person decides they are a different gender than they are? Determining what is "sane" or "insane" from a third-party perspective is not easily done and has a lot of social and psychological pitfalls. The lines being drawn are inarguably arbitrary, and the stakes are very high, because people who are experiencing gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia have very hard lives and we need to have some empathy. 

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HoffaJimmy

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On 8/18/2020 at 3:09 PM, troph said:

if nadal went through five years of transition and had female range hormones then yes Serena might beat [her] head to head.  you have no idea what you're talking about.  Your very question assumes in a really bad way that all Nadal would do is dawn a cute tennis skirt and while that may make the gay boys (at least some) a bit more hot and bothered it doesn't make him trans.  and this idea that cisgender women athletes are getting dominated by trans women doesn't show up in the facts.  There are a few top notch trans athletes but by and large the domination you and Rogan claim isn’t there. it's just not there.  you care about it, but it's not happening.  your common sense approach is dripping with misinformation and a lack of knowledge on the subject.  it really is.  

and your empathy?  the first time I need it from you I'll ask.  

 

The reason why trans women aren't dominating biological women doesn't show up in the facts is there isn't a lot of high level trans women making that change. There are however multiple trans women like Rogan said that won or significantly become better when competing in women's events after transitioning. That is indeed a fact. Is it wide spread? No, would it be a legit issue at the top of tennis, golf, soccer, track and field and other high level women's events if there were more trans female athletes? 100%. 

 

 

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