Jump to content

Donald Trump 2018


TheFlyingBoat

Recommended Posts

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:31 PM, Tuco said:

From the tweet, apparently she was 20.  She was also indigenous, which makes the whole thing a bit ironic. 

Expand  

Horrific, tragic death.  As all such events are.

As for blame, I'll wait till the facts are clearer.  Agent claims he was being assaulted with 2X4s, others claim that was bullshit.  If he was firing in self-defense, even though it's tragic that someone in the group who may or may not have been actively hitting him was killed, it would be a legally justified act of self-defense.  If he wasn't, then he should face consequences.

Underneath it all, what's sad to me is the change in attitude of the Border Patrol -- and to some extent, the change in the folks they are encountering.  My family is from the border, have folks on both sides of the river, and have had relatives working for Border Patrol on and off my whole life.  It used to be simple border enforcement.  Illegals would cross, Border Patrol would try to catch them.  When they did, it was -- relatively speaking -- cordial and even compassionate.  The tone was "sorry muchacho, but you know the drill."  They'd even have water on hand for folks who needed it.  And, when caught, the illegals generally would surrender peacefully.

Now, it has all escalated.  I think that between the drug war (which has led to some of the folks crossing being genuinely bad, dangerous guys, as opposed to Jose who just wanted to cross to hang sheetrock) and the rhetoric and fetishized militarization of everyone with a badge, where we've ended up is inevitable.  And shitty.

I don't want to see Border Patrol agents hurt.  I don't want to see little Guatemalans shot.  I'd like humans to treat each other like humans.  I'll add this to the list of shit that will surely continue to disappoint me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:22 PM, Brisketexan said:

The problem is, that event will be the nail in the coffin of the Rule of Law vs. Rule of the Fist.

When a clear case of criminal conduct by the executive is laid out -- the kind of case where any other citizen would be convicted -- and the Senate acquits NOT because "not guilty," but because of political power, that's when it's over.  That's when it is literally written into the books that "the laws don't apply to those in power."

Once that happens, we are officially another banana republic, albeit with better roads (for the time being).

The GOP is conspiring to commit homicide against the Rule of Law, nobody can stop them, and they will thus succeed.  Our system has a fatal flaw in it, it is being exploited as we watch, and the result is something we can never walk back from.

Expand  

In part, this is why, should the Democrats take control of the house, they must not force a Senate impeachment trial unless they are sure they have the votes to convict and remove. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:49 PM, Fozzz said:

The girl was 16, not 20.  Is it the agent's contention that the girl was endangering his life?  lmao 

Expand  

The age issue is still a matter of debate.  She's indigenous from Guatemala -- I suspect that there aren't going to be clear records, but from what I've read (from several sources, mostly sympathetic to her), she's 20.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:50 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

In part, this is why, should the Democrats take control of the house, they must not force a Senate impeachment trial unless they are sure they have the votes to convict and remove. 

Expand  

Let's not test our system when we know it will fail?

Fuck that.

If our system isn't strong enough to pass, we don't fucking deserve it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:52 PM, Fozzz said:

From what I read that number came from an agent who said she "looked 20."  Hope the agent who did it gets what's coming to him.  

Expand  

I hope he does -- but I also realize that what's coming to him may be an exoneration if his account is reasonably accurate, and he was being struck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  Quote

“Why did you kill that woman?” she screamed at the officer, who did not respond. “You killed her!”

The officer began frantically doing chest compressions on the woman, but Ms. Martinez said it was clear that she had already died.

The F.B.I. is investigating the shooting, the authorities said, and agents on Wednesday spoke with Ms. Martinez and reviewed her videos.

On another part of the lot, which is empty except for a few trees, grass and overgrown weeds, an officer caught three men who were believed to be with the woman. As the officer escorted them away, Ms. Martinez said she heard him say: “See what happens? This is what happens with you people.”

Expand  

Wow, fucking trash even taunted the others with her after the murder.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/us/border-patrol-shooting-woman.html

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:52 PM, Fozzz said:

From what I read that number came from an agent who said she "looked 20."  Hope the agent who did it gets what's coming to him.  

Expand  

The gal whose tweet you linked had a comment from 40 minutes ago that she had talked to Claudia's aunt who confirmed Claudia turned 20 in February. 

And, no, it doesn't really matter except how you are perceived in political discussions, particularly on social media.  If you reference information which is inaccurate, that will be used by the opposition to discredit you, even if it is a trivial fact.  I don't know if you engage in those kind of discussions other than this board, but I'm sure some reading your posts do. So I think it's good to be zipped up tight as you can be on the facts, as best we understand them.  That's generally my intention in correcting meaningless shit like that.  It helps people to be better advocates. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:23 PM, DDD Dad said:

Without researching but just based on guesstimates I'd throw out the following for consideration:

USSR/Russia

Serbia/Bosnia

Rwanda

and probably a handful of others.

Expand  

The only one that comes close is the former USSR, but they eventually collapsed after their grand ambitions led to financial ruin. The others are/were small country civil war issues of infighting that arent wrecking havoc on many parts of the world the way we do. Hell, even as evil as Putin is modern day Russia hasnt terrorized the world with violence the way we do. They now use a lot more subtle and psychological ways to influence. We're the biggest blood thirsty barbarians of the modern day, and no amount of standing for national anthems or spouting off propaganda can change that fact. 

Edited by JohnRedHorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:03 PM, High Plains Drifter said:

16 or 20, who gives a shit. The idea that an unarmed girl that age is some sort of threat to a BP agent is absurd. Hang that cocksucker up by his balls as a warning.

 

Expand  

You ever get clocked upside the head by a 2x4?  Doesn't take Paul Bunyan swinging it to do some damage and put you in fear for your safety.  Look, don't MAKE me defend the agent's version of the events.  Just stand neutral and wait for the facts to come out in full, okay?  That's how we maintain credibility.  When we jump to a particular conclusion because it fits our narrative, and we DON'T bother to examine and verify facts, we're Trumpian.  Don't be Trumpian.

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 3:01 PM, JohnRedHorn said:

It's like we're in a twilight zone episode where after WW2 we got so smug and  ignorant feasting on pro US propaganda that we dont realize we've replaced Hitler as the biggest evil monster in the world. 

Expand  

There's no question, in my mind, that we're an evil nation right now. That ICE stuff I posted earlier really depressed me more than usual when I read the news these days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:20 PM, GSU&UT said:

There's no question, in my mind, that we're an evil nation right now. That ICE stuff I posted earlier really depressed me more than usual when I read the news these days.

Expand  

America isn’t being fucked over by myopic, selfish, foolish people.  Trump and the GOP are pied pipers, playing various songs about low taxes, border walls, and blue collar jobs, and so many greedy motherfuckers are willing to dance along while stomping on what this country used to stand for.  And all those things they’re being promised?  Lies, of course.  It’s really depressing.

Edited by BrickHorn
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:30 PM, BrickHorn said:

America isn’t being fucked over by myopic, selfish, foolish people.  Trump and the GOP are pied pipers, playing various songs about low taxes, border walls, and blue collar jobs, and so many greedy motherfuckers are willing to dance along while stomping on what this country used to stand for.  It’s really depressing.

Expand  

It's amazing how low the bar is to win support on the R side. There may be a Democratic wave in the mid-terms, but there are still so many fucking idiots who only need to hear those three things you mentioned to in order to vote for said rep.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:30 PM, BrickHorn said:

America isn’t being fucked over by myopic, selfish, foolish people.  Trump and the GOP are pied pipers, playing various songs about low taxes, border walls, and blue collar jobs, and so many greedy motherfuckers are willing to dance along while stomping on what this country used to stand for.  And all those things they’re being promised?  Lies, of course.  It’s really depressing.

Expand  

You forgot "blaming dark people for every single thing wrong in their lives."  There HAS to be someone to blame, and there is.  See how he whips the crowd into a frenzy about those dirty dangerous messicans....in fucking WEST VIRGINIA.  What, there are a couple dozen mexicans there, but hey, they are the GREAT BROWN THREAT!  THEY'RE THE REASON YOU'RE ALL POOR AND STUPID!

First rule of authoritarianism: create and blame a foreign threat.

First rule of America: we're stupid enough to fall for it, by the millions.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:18 PM, Brisketexan said:

You ever get clocked upside the head by a 2x4?  Doesn't take Paul Bunyan swinging it to do some damage and put you in fear for your safety.  Look, don't MAKE me defend the agent's version of the events.  Just stand neutral and wait for the facts to come out in full, okay?  That's how we maintain credibility.  When we jump to a particular conclusion because it fits our narrative, and we DON'T bother to examine and verify facts, we're Trumpian.  Don't be Trumpian.

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

Expand  

Yes but the agent has options other than firing at the people coming into the country illegally.   He can even retreat and call for backup. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:18 PM, Brisketexan said:

You ever get clocked upside the head by a 2x4?  Doesn't take Paul Bunyan swinging it to do some damage and put you in fear for your safety.  Look, don't MAKE me defend the agent's version of the events.  Just stand neutral and wait for the facts to come out in full, okay?  That's how we maintain credibility.  When we jump to a particular conclusion because it fits our narrative, and we DON'T bother to examine and verify facts, we're Trumpian.  Don't be Trumpian.

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

Expand  

 

The idea that a female, 20 yr old Guatemalan Indian, even if armed with a 2x4, is a threat to a trained, adult, BP agent is laughable.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:39 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Yes but the agent has options other than firing at the people coming into the country illegally.   He can even retreat and call for backup. 

Expand  

Sure, that might be the nice thing to do.  But if he is being assaulted, he has NO obligation to retreat, and he is allowed to defend himself with deadly force.

You don't get to beat someone with a 2x4 when that person has a gun and NOT run a risk of getting shot in self-defense.  Sorry, if that's what happened here, it will be a sad and tragic death, but the agent will have been legally justified in shooting.  I'm not one of these "he shoulda just shot her in the leg!" folks.  Force that creates risk of serious bodily injury can be met with force.  That's the law for cops, and it's the law for the rest of us as well.  I have no obligation to retreat if you're doing that to me -- I can shoot you.  So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:46 PM, High Plains Drifter said:

 

The idea that a female, 20 yr old Guatemalan Indian, even if armed with a 2x4, is a threat to a trained, adult, BP agent is laughable.

 

 

 

Expand  

It is not laughable in fact, nor is it laughable as a matter of law.  Look, I generally fall on the same side of this issue as you, but don't ignore that there are some clear and established standards out there.  A person doesn't need to run the math on how many foot-pounds of energy is being transmitted by the person swinging the 2x4 at their head before he is allowed to defend himself.  And, again, 20 year old Guatamala indians used to fucking kill people in battle by swinging bludgeons, so don't write that shit off.

Let the facts come out.  THEN reach  your conclusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:47 PM, Brisketexan said:

Sure, that might be the nice thing to do.  But if he is being assaulted, he has NO obligation to retreat, and he is allowed to defend himself with deadly force.

You don't get to beat someone with a 2x4 when that person has a gun and NOT run a risk of getting shot in self-defense.  Sorry, if that's what happened here, it will be a sad and tragic death, but the agent will have been legally justified in shooting.  I'm not one of these "he shoulda just shot her in the leg!" folks.  Force that creates risk of serious bodily injury can be met with force.  That's the law for cops, and it's the law for the rest of us as well.  I have no obligation to retreat if you're doing that to me -- I can shoot you.  So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

Expand  

I'm with you on this concept generally, but I think the odds that this girl or any of the people with her was actually assaulting him with a 2x4 are probably equal to the odds of the Browns winning the Super Bowl next season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not up on all the details -- was the girl the one swinging the 2x4?

Agreed that self-defense is not unjustifiable, and those guys are trained to shoot center mass, regardless.  If a cop is pulling the trigger you're likely going to suffer some serious injury (or he's going to miss).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The GOP has found the winning combination for its goals.  Enact policy for the wealthy, and get non-wealthy whites to support them by blaming minorities for the ills of society.   It's a tried and true classic.   They've been edging that way for years, but it took abandoning all sense of shame to have the kind of success they now enjoy. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:53 PM, wildcat09 said:

I'm with you on this concept generally, but I think the odds that this girl or any of the people with her was actually assaulting him with a 2x4 are probably equal to the odds of the Browns winning the Super Bowl next season.

Expand  

I have my doubts about the girl doing any swinging.  But I have my suspicions about people in her group doing some swinging.  I suspect the facts, timeline, and circumstances will be confusing as shit.  Which is a bad place to be when you're dealing with someone with a pistol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:18 PM, Brisketexan said:

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

Expand  

Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the system determining what the truth is here.  If it's one agent's word against 6 "illegals", and he doesn't have a scratch on him, will that be enough to prosecute?  To convict? He's got a uniform and they're brown criminals.  Murder is really not that hard to get away with. 

Yeah, I'm with you on waiting until more facts come out.  Maybe there will be something that exonerates him.  I just don't have faith that there will be enough evidence to serve justice even if he was in the wrong.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:54 PM, Mojo Hand said:

The GOP has found the winning combination for its goals.  Enact policy for the wealthy, and get non-wealthy whites to support them by blaming minorities for the ills of society.   It's a tried and true classic.   They've been edging that way for years, but it took abandoning all sense of shame to have the kind of success they now enjoy. 

Expand  

Don’t forget the part about straight up lying about being  fiscally responsible then spending like drunken salty sailors.  All the while their idiot lemming supporters buy it hook line and sinker.  Sad!

Edited by Ted Lange
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:47 PM, Brisketexan said:

Sure, that might be the nice thing to do.  But if he is being assaulted, he has NO obligation to retreat, and he is allowed to defend himself with deadly force.

You don't get to beat someone with a 2x4 when that person has a gun and NOT run a risk of getting shot in self-defense.  Sorry, if that's what happened here, it will be a sad and tragic death, but the agent will have been legally justified in shooting.  I'm not one of these "he shoulda just shot her in the leg!" folks.  Force that creates risk of serious bodily injury can be met with force.  That's the law for cops, and it's the law for the rest of us as well.  I have no obligation to retreat if you're doing that to me -- I can shoot you.  So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

Expand  

Law enforcement should look at the bigger pictures sometimes and stop worrying about their ego.  A law enforcement officer has the right to defend himself.  But that doesn't mean that this is always the best or recommended approach.  I would hope that a cop would analyze the situation and determine what is best for him, the suspect and the general public.  And if he has the ability to retreat in a bad situation ,then do it.  That can be the better course of action as opposed to opening fire where innocent people can be shot as well.  He is also escalating a situation when he is the first to open fire.

Of course, as of right now we have no idea if he was under attack and/or to what extent.  There are conflicting reports of this.   I doubt this was a mob of people coming at him with 2x4s from every direction.  There are already holes in his story so its easy to come to the conclusion his entire story is false.

Since this is a Trump thread, I think this could be an outcome that is the fault of Trump.  When he starts the rhetoric that Border Patrol is the last line of defense against the millions of MS13 thugs, some agents may start to believe that lie.  They will be ramped up ready to protect their friends and family.  When we really know that the vast majority of people illegally coming into the country are not violent criminals but people just trying to find a better life.   They shouldn't cross the border illegally but it shouldn't turn into a gun fight either.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 5:31 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Law enforcement should look at the bigger pictures sometimes and stop worrying about their ego.  A law enforcement officer has the right to defend himself.  But that doesn't mean that this is always the best or recommended approach.  I would hope that a cop would analyze the situation and determine what is best for him, the suspect and the general public.  And if he has the ability to retreat in a bad situation ,then do it.  That can be the better course of action as opposed to opening fire where innocent people can be shot as well.  He is also escalating a situation when he is the first to open fire.

Of course, as of right now we have no idea if he was under attack and/or to what extent.  There are conflicting reports of this.   I doubt this was a mob of people coming at him with 2x4s from every direction.  There are already holes in his story so its easy to come to the conclusion his entire story is false.

Since this is a Trump thread, I think this could be an outcome that is the fault of Trump.  When he starts the rhetoric that Border Patrol is the last line of defense against the millions of MS13 thugs, some agents may start to believe that lie.  They will be ramped up ready to protect their friends and family.  When we really know that the vast majority of people illegally coming into the country are not violent criminals but people just trying to find a better life.   They shouldn't cross the border illegally but it shouldn't turn into a gun fight either.

Expand  

To your first para, I absolutely agree.  De-escalation training should be as or even more important than training in how to apply force.  However, I'm noting that what we're arguing is a policy point, not a legal point.

To your second para, there are conflicting reports.  I don't know IF anyone was attacking him.  If so, I don't know HOW MANY were doing so, or WHAT WITH.  I don't know where the victim was with respect to any such activity.  There's lots of room for holes.  But they also may be filled.

Finally, I agree with your third para, and stated that point above.  The rhetoric of "this is a war to defend our land!" leads to, well, warfare.  Sometimes, that's warfare against little Guatemalan women...which is pathetic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 5:30 PM, shnsajax said:

Trump actually referred to the military in today speech as “war fighters”. Pretty comical from President Bone Spurs, and a little frightening that he has no qualms in sending them off to war.

Expand  

It's been that way for some time. Chickenhawks rule the GOP.

628_350x350_Front_Color-White.png?region

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 4:56 PM, Brisketexan said:

I have my doubts about the girl doing any swinging.  But I have my suspicions about people in her group doing some swinging.  I suspect the facts, timeline, and circumstances will be confusing as shit.  Which is a bad place to be when you're dealing with someone with a pistol.

Expand  

I wouldn't be surprised if some people were throwing things or swinging something at the agent. My college roommate ended working in the BP for a couple of years. He said if you encountered a group alone it was not unusual for the group to start hurling shit at you. One time he had a dude standing above him try and toss a big ass rock on his head. My friend didn't shoot but did pull out his gun and threaten to shoot him if the guy didn't cut it out.

I'm with you on waiting for more information and while I am no fan of law enforcement, I do realize they are often in dangerous situations we civilians never experience.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  On 5/25/2018 at 5:44 PM, F250 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if some people were throwing things or swinging something at the agent. My college roommate ended working in the BP for a couple of years. He said if you encountered a group alone it was not unusual for the group to start hurling shit at you. One time he had a dude standing above him try and toss a big ass rock on his head. My friend didn't shoot but did pull out his gun and threaten to shoot him if the guy didn't cut it out.

I'm with you on waiting for more information and while I am no fan of law enforcement, I do realize they are often in dangerous situations we civilians never experience.

 

Expand  

And that's all I'm saying here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posting this for Brisket and other erstwhile Republicans:

Concerned by Trump, Some Republicans Quietly Align With Democrats

WASHINGTON — Since Donald J. Trump began dominating American politics more than two years ago, Democrats concerned about his policies and behavior have taken solace in a group of influential Republicans who have consistently assailed the president as anathema to the values of their party, and the country more broadly.

In the past year, however, influential liberal donors and operatives have gone from cheering these so-called Never Trump Republicans to quietly working with — and even funding — them. Through invitation-only emails and private, off-the-record meetings, they have formed a loose network of cross-partisan alliances aimed at helping neutralize President Trump, and preventing others from capitalizing on weaknesses in the political system that they say he has exploited.

While this network has mostly eschewed electoral politics, some involved see the potential for it to help form an ideological — and possibly financial — platform to back candidates, including a centrist challenge to Mr. Trump in 2020, possibly from within the G.O.P. or even a third party.

The network — composed of overlapping groups led by Democrats such as the donor Rachel Pritzker and several veteran Obama administration operatives, as well as leading Never Trump Republicans like Evan McMullin, Mindy Finn and William Kristol — aims to chart a middle path between a Republican base falling in line behind Mr. Trump and a liberal resistance trying to pull the Democratic Party left.

“If you’re a Republican who is concerned about the health of the liberal order and alarmed over the destruction of the norms of American democracy, there’s no reason you shouldn’t be willing to work with a Democrat who is equally concerned about those same matters,” said Jerry Taylor, a Republican who is president of the Niskanen Center, a moderate think tank that grew out of the libertarian Cato Institute.

While a slew of initiatives raised big money for cross-partisan bridge-building and even presidential campaigns in 2012, the current effort is different. It involves more players who are more actively involved in politics from across the spectrum, many of whom bring their own constituencies, making it less centralized and, in some ways, less organized.

Yet they are arguably more united than past efforts by their concern over threats to democracy they contend are embodied by a single politician: Mr. Trump.

  Reveal hidden contents

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...