Donald Trump 2018

[Brisketexan 105152]

3 minutes ago, Tuco said:

From the tweet, apparently she was 20.  She was also indigenous, which makes the whole thing a bit ironic. 

Horrific, tragic death.  As all such events are.

As for blame, I'll wait till the facts are clearer.  Agent claims he was being assaulted with 2X4s, others claim that was bullshit.  If he was firing in self-defense, even though it's tragic that someone in the group who may or may not have been actively hitting him was killed, it would be a legally justified act of self-defense.  If he wasn't, then he should face consequences.

Underneath it all, what's sad to me is the change in attitude of the Border Patrol -- and to some extent, the change in the folks they are encountering.  My family is from the border, have folks on both sides of the river, and have had relatives working for Border Patrol on and off my whole life.  It used to be simple border enforcement.  Illegals would cross, Border Patrol would try to catch them.  When they did, it was -- relatively speaking -- cordial and even compassionate.  The tone was "sorry muchacho, but you know the drill."  They'd even have water on hand for folks who needed it.  And, when caught, the illegals generally would surrender peacefully.

Now, it has all escalated.  I think that between the drug war (which has led to some of the folks crossing being genuinely bad, dangerous guys, as opposed to Jose who just wanted to cross to hang sheetrock) and the rhetoric and fetishized militarization of everyone with a badge, where we've ended up is inevitable.  And shitty.

I don't want to see Border Patrol agents hurt.  I don't want to see little Guatemalans shot.  I'd like humans to treat each other like humans.  I'll add this to the list of shit that will surely continue to disappoint me.

[Fozzz 152]

The girl was 16, not 20.  Is it the agent's contention that the girl was endangering his life?  lmao 

[Bozo_Casanova 26472]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The problem is, that event will be the nail in the coffin of the Rule of Law vs. Rule of the Fist.

When a clear case of criminal conduct by the executive is laid out -- the kind of case where any other citizen would be convicted -- and the Senate acquits NOT because "not guilty," but because of political power, that's when it's over.  That's when it is literally written into the books that "the laws don't apply to those in power."

Once that happens, we are officially another banana republic, albeit with better roads (for the time being).

The GOP is conspiring to commit homicide against the Rule of Law, nobody can stop them, and they will thus succeed.  Our system has a fatal flaw in it, it is being exploited as we watch, and the result is something we can never walk back from.

In part, this is why, should the Democrats take control of the house, they must not force a Senate impeachment trial unless they are sure they have the votes to convict and remove. 

[Brisketexan 105152]

Just now, Fozzz said:

The girl was 16, not 20.  Is it the agent's contention that the girl was endangering his life?  lmao 

The age issue is still a matter of debate.  She's indigenous from Guatemala -- I suspect that there aren't going to be clear records, but from what I've read (from several sources, mostly sympathetic to her), she's 20.  

[Brisketexan 105152]

Just now, Bozo_Casanova said:

In part, this is why, should the Democrats take control of the house, they must not force a Senate impeachment trial unless they are sure they have the votes to convict and remove. 

Let's not test our system when we know it will fail?

Fuck that.

If our system isn't strong enough to pass, we don't fucking deserve it.

[Fozzz 152]

From what I read that number came from an agent who said she "looked 20."  Hope the agent who did it gets what's coming to him.  

[Brisketexan 105152]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

From what I read that number came from an agent who said she "looked 20."  Hope the agent who did it gets what's coming to him.  

I hope he does -- but I also realize that what's coming to him may be an exoneration if his account is reasonably accurate, and he was being struck.

[Fozzz 152]

The shooting was allegedly captured on facebook live, so I'm sure everything will come out soon.  lol

[Brisketexan 105152]

Just now, Fozzz said:

The shooting was allegedly captured on facebook live, so I'm sure everything will come out soon.  lol

Nope -- just the aftermath was.

[Fozzz 152]

Quote

“Why did you kill that woman?” she screamed at the officer, who did not respond. “You killed her!”

The officer began frantically doing chest compressions on the woman, but Ms. Martinez said it was clear that she had already died.

The F.B.I. is investigating the shooting, the authorities said, and agents on Wednesday spoke with Ms. Martinez and reviewed her videos.

On another part of the lot, which is empty except for a few trees, grass and overgrown weeds, an officer caught three men who were believed to be with the woman. As the officer escorted them away, Ms. Martinez said she heard him say: “See what happens? This is what happens with you people.”

Wow, fucking trash even taunted the others with her after the murder.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/us/border-patrol-shooting-woman.html

 

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

16 or 20, who gives a shit. The idea that an unarmed girl that age is some sort of threat to a BP agent is absurd. Hang that cocksucker up by his balls as a warning.

 

[lemonlime 5503]

53 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Yes, I read it.  It's terrible.  It also doesn't make us the biggest evil monster in the world since Hitler.

Not yet.  But Hitler didn't just wake up to be a genocidal maniac one morning.  We're on that path, and 30% of the country is all aboard.

[Tuco 5076]

13 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

From what I read that number came from an agent who said she "looked 20."  Hope the agent who did it gets what's coming to him.  

The gal whose tweet you linked had a comment from 40 minutes ago that she had talked to Claudia's aunt who confirmed Claudia turned 20 in February. 

And, no, it doesn't really matter except how you are perceived in political discussions, particularly on social media.  If you reference information which is inaccurate, that will be used by the opposition to discredit you, even if it is a trivial fact.  I don't know if you engage in those kind of discussions other than this board, but I'm sure some reading your posts do. So I think it's good to be zipped up tight as you can be on the facts, as best we understand them.  That's generally my intention in correcting meaningless shit like that.  It helps people to be better advocates. 

[David Dennison 18881]

1 hour ago, Dr. Teeth said:

So I guess he will now allow legislation to prohibit Trump from firing Mueller?

Even if legislation passes, will Trump sign it? Will it have enough votes to override a veto?

[JohnRedHorn 29]

53 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Without researching but just based on guesstimates I'd throw out the following for consideration:

USSR/Russia

Serbia/Bosnia

Rwanda

and probably a handful of others.

The only one that comes close is the former USSR, but they eventually collapsed after their grand ambitions led to financial ruin. The others are/were small country civil war issues of infighting that arent wrecking havoc on many parts of the world the way we do. Hell, even as evil as Putin is modern day Russia hasnt terrorized the world with violence the way we do. They now use a lot more subtle and psychological ways to influence. We're the biggest blood thirsty barbarians of the modern day, and no amount of standing for national anthems or spouting off propaganda can change that fact. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by JohnRedHorn

[Brisketexan 105152]

13 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

16 or 20, who gives a shit. The idea that an unarmed girl that age is some sort of threat to a BP agent is absurd. Hang that cocksucker up by his balls as a warning.

 

You ever get clocked upside the head by a 2x4?  Doesn't take Paul Bunyan swinging it to do some damage and put you in fear for your safety.  Look, don't MAKE me defend the agent's version of the events.  Just stand neutral and wait for the facts to come out in full, okay?  That's how we maintain credibility.  When we jump to a particular conclusion because it fits our narrative, and we DON'T bother to examine and verify facts, we're Trumpian.  Don't be Trumpian.

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

[GSU&UT 1798]

1 hour ago, JohnRedHorn said:

It's like we're in a twilight zone episode where after WW2 we got so smug and  ignorant feasting on pro US propaganda that we dont realize we've replaced Hitler as the biggest evil monster in the world. 

There's no question, in my mind, that we're an evil nation right now. That ICE stuff I posted earlier really depressed me more than usual when I read the news these days.

[lemonlime 5503]

There's no question, in my mind, that we're an evil nation right now. That ICE stuff I posted earlier really depressed me more than usual when I read the news these days.

[BrickHorn 18237]

10 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

There's no question, in my mind, that we're an evil nation right now. That ICE stuff I posted earlier really depressed me more than usual when I read the news these days.

America isn’t being fucked over by myopic, selfish, foolish people.  Trump and the GOP are pied pipers, playing various songs about low taxes, border walls, and blue collar jobs, and so many greedy motherfuckers are willing to dance along while stomping on what this country used to stand for.  And all those things they’re being promised?  Lies, of course.  It’s really depressing.

Edited May 25, 2018 by BrickHorn

[GSU&UT 1798]

1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

America isn’t being fucked over by myopic, selfish, foolish people.  Trump and the GOP are pied pipers, playing various songs about low taxes, border walls, and blue collar jobs, and so many greedy motherfuckers are willing to dance along while stomping on what this country used to stand for.  It’s really depressing.

It's amazing how low the bar is to win support on the R side. There may be a Democratic wave in the mid-terms, but there are still so many fucking idiots who only need to hear those three things you mentioned to in order to vote for said rep.

[Brisketexan 105152]

4 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

America isn’t being fucked over by myopic, selfish, foolish people.  Trump and the GOP are pied pipers, playing various songs about low taxes, border walls, and blue collar jobs, and so many greedy motherfuckers are willing to dance along while stomping on what this country used to stand for.  And all those things they’re being promised?  Lies, of course.  It’s really depressing.

You forgot "blaming dark people for every single thing wrong in their lives."  There HAS to be someone to blame, and there is.  See how he whips the crowd into a frenzy about those dirty dangerous messicans....in fucking WEST VIRGINIA.  What, there are a couple dozen mexicans there, but hey, they are the GREAT BROWN THREAT!  THEY'RE THE REASON YOU'RE ALL POOR AND STUPID!

First rule of authoritarianism: create and blame a foreign threat.

First rule of America: we're stupid enough to fall for it, by the millions.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You ever get clocked upside the head by a 2x4?  Doesn't take Paul Bunyan swinging it to do some damage and put you in fear for your safety.  Look, don't MAKE me defend the agent's version of the events.  Just stand neutral and wait for the facts to come out in full, okay?  That's how we maintain credibility.  When we jump to a particular conclusion because it fits our narrative, and we DON'T bother to examine and verify facts, we're Trumpian.  Don't be Trumpian.

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

Yes but the agent has options other than firing at the people coming into the country illegally.   He can even retreat and call for backup. 

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You ever get clocked upside the head by a 2x4?  Doesn't take Paul Bunyan swinging it to do some damage and put you in fear for your safety.  Look, don't MAKE me defend the agent's version of the events.  Just stand neutral and wait for the facts to come out in full, okay?  That's how we maintain credibility.  When we jump to a particular conclusion because it fits our narrative, and we DON'T bother to examine and verify facts, we're Trumpian.  Don't be Trumpian.

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

 

The idea that a female, 20 yr old Guatemalan Indian, even if armed with a 2x4, is a threat to a trained, adult, BP agent is laughable.

 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105152]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Yes but the agent has options other than firing at the people coming into the country illegally.   He can even retreat and call for backup. 

Sure, that might be the nice thing to do.  But if he is being assaulted, he has NO obligation to retreat, and he is allowed to defend himself with deadly force.

You don't get to beat someone with a 2x4 when that person has a gun and NOT run a risk of getting shot in self-defense.  Sorry, if that's what happened here, it will be a sad and tragic death, but the agent will have been legally justified in shooting.  I'm not one of these "he shoulda just shot her in the leg!" folks.  Force that creates risk of serious bodily injury can be met with force.  That's the law for cops, and it's the law for the rest of us as well.  I have no obligation to retreat if you're doing that to me -- I can shoot you.  So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

[Brisketexan 105152]

1 minute ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

The idea that a female, 20 yr old Guatemalan Indian, even if armed with a 2x4, is a threat to a trained, adult, BP agent is laughable.

 

 

 

It is not laughable in fact, nor is it laughable as a matter of law.  Look, I generally fall on the same side of this issue as you, but don't ignore that there are some clear and established standards out there.  A person doesn't need to run the math on how many foot-pounds of energy is being transmitted by the person swinging the 2x4 at their head before he is allowed to defend himself.  And, again, 20 year old Guatamala indians used to fucking kill people in battle by swinging bludgeons, so don't write that shit off.

Let the facts come out.  THEN reach  your conclusion.

[wildcat09 29355]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure, that might be the nice thing to do.  But if he is being assaulted, he has NO obligation to retreat, and he is allowed to defend himself with deadly force.

You don't get to beat someone with a 2x4 when that person has a gun and NOT run a risk of getting shot in self-defense.  Sorry, if that's what happened here, it will be a sad and tragic death, but the agent will have been legally justified in shooting.  I'm not one of these "he shoulda just shot her in the leg!" folks.  Force that creates risk of serious bodily injury can be met with force.  That's the law for cops, and it's the law for the rest of us as well.  I have no obligation to retreat if you're doing that to me -- I can shoot you.  So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

I'm with you on this concept generally, but I think the odds that this girl or any of the people with her was actually assaulting him with a 2x4 are probably equal to the odds of the Browns winning the Super Bowl next season.

[jimmyjazz 45963]

I'm not up on all the details -- was the girl the one swinging the 2x4?

Agreed that self-defense is not unjustifiable, and those guys are trained to shoot center mass, regardless.  If a cop is pulling the trigger you're likely going to suffer some serious injury (or he's going to miss).

[Mojo Hand 4580]

The GOP has found the winning combination for its goals.  Enact policy for the wealthy, and get non-wealthy whites to support them by blaming minorities for the ills of society.   It's a tried and true classic.   They've been edging that way for years, but it took abandoning all sense of shame to have the kind of success they now enjoy. 

[Brisketexan 105152]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm with you on this concept generally, but I think the odds that this girl or any of the people with her was actually assaulting him with a 2x4 are probably equal to the odds of the Browns winning the Super Bowl next season.

I have my doubts about the girl doing any swinging.  But I have my suspicions about people in her group doing some swinging.  I suspect the facts, timeline, and circumstances will be confusing as shit.  Which is a bad place to be when you're dealing with someone with a pistol.

[Tuco 5076]

33 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, if the agent was being attacked with 2x4s, then the age and size of the assailant generally won't matter -- he has a right to act in self-defense.  That remains a POSSIBILITY in this case, so let's see if that possibility turns into truth or not.

Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the system determining what the truth is here.  If it's one agent's word against 6 "illegals", and he doesn't have a scratch on him, will that be enough to prosecute?  To convict? He's got a uniform and they're brown criminals.  Murder is really not that hard to get away with. 

Yeah, I'm with you on waiting until more facts come out.  Maybe there will be something that exonerates him.  I just don't have faith that there will be enough evidence to serve justice even if he was in the wrong.

 

[SubliminalHorn 6799]

1 hour ago, Dr. Teeth said:

I was told each child’s life was precious. 

Only in the womb, after that, they’re worthless to the GOP

[Ted Lange 16109]

11 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

The GOP has found the winning combination for its goals.  Enact policy for the wealthy, and get non-wealthy whites to support them by blaming minorities for the ills of society.   It's a tried and true classic.   They've been edging that way for years, but it took abandoning all sense of shame to have the kind of success they now enjoy. 

Don’t forget the part about straight up lying about being  fiscally responsible then spending like drunken salty sailors.  All the while their idiot lemming supporters buy it hook line and sinker.  Sad!

Edited May 25, 2018 by Ted Lange

[shnsajax 3591]

Trump actually referred to the military in today speech as “war fighters”. Pretty comical from President Bone Spurs, and a little frightening that he has no qualms in sending them off to war.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure, that might be the nice thing to do.  But if he is being assaulted, he has NO obligation to retreat, and he is allowed to defend himself with deadly force.

You don't get to beat someone with a 2x4 when that person has a gun and NOT run a risk of getting shot in self-defense.  Sorry, if that's what happened here, it will be a sad and tragic death, but the agent will have been legally justified in shooting.  I'm not one of these "he shoulda just shot her in the leg!" folks.  Force that creates risk of serious bodily injury can be met with force.  That's the law for cops, and it's the law for the rest of us as well.  I have no obligation to retreat if you're doing that to me -- I can shoot you.  So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

Law enforcement should look at the bigger pictures sometimes and stop worrying about their ego.  A law enforcement officer has the right to defend himself.  But that doesn't mean that this is always the best or recommended approach.  I would hope that a cop would analyze the situation and determine what is best for him, the suspect and the general public.  And if he has the ability to retreat in a bad situation ,then do it.  That can be the better course of action as opposed to opening fire where innocent people can be shot as well.  He is also escalating a situation when he is the first to open fire.

Of course, as of right now we have no idea if he was under attack and/or to what extent.  There are conflicting reports of this.   I doubt this was a mob of people coming at him with 2x4s from every direction.  There are already holes in his story so its easy to come to the conclusion his entire story is false.

Since this is a Trump thread, I think this could be an outcome that is the fault of Trump.  When he starts the rhetoric that Border Patrol is the last line of defense against the millions of MS13 thugs, some agents may start to believe that lie.  They will be ramped up ready to protect their friends and family.  When we really know that the vast majority of people illegally coming into the country are not violent criminals but people just trying to find a better life.   They shouldn't cross the border illegally but it shouldn't turn into a gun fight either.

[Brisketexan 105152]

1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Law enforcement should look at the bigger pictures sometimes and stop worrying about their ego.  A law enforcement officer has the right to defend himself.  But that doesn't mean that this is always the best or recommended approach.  I would hope that a cop would analyze the situation and determine what is best for him, the suspect and the general public.  And if he has the ability to retreat in a bad situation ,then do it.  That can be the better course of action as opposed to opening fire where innocent people can be shot as well.  He is also escalating a situation when he is the first to open fire.

Of course, as of right now we have no idea if he was under attack and/or to what extent.  There are conflicting reports of this.   I doubt this was a mob of people coming at him with 2x4s from every direction.  There are already holes in his story so its easy to come to the conclusion his entire story is false.

Since this is a Trump thread, I think this could be an outcome that is the fault of Trump.  When he starts the rhetoric that Border Patrol is the last line of defense against the millions of MS13 thugs, some agents may start to believe that lie.  They will be ramped up ready to protect their friends and family.  When we really know that the vast majority of people illegally coming into the country are not violent criminals but people just trying to find a better life.   They shouldn't cross the border illegally but it shouldn't turn into a gun fight either.

To your first para, I absolutely agree.  De-escalation training should be as or even more important than training in how to apply force.  However, I'm noting that what we're arguing is a policy point, not a legal point.

To your second para, there are conflicting reports.  I don't know IF anyone was attacking him.  If so, I don't know HOW MANY were doing so, or WHAT WITH.  I don't know where the victim was with respect to any such activity.  There's lots of room for holes.  But they also may be filled.

Finally, I agree with your third para, and stated that point above.  The rhetoric of "this is a war to defend our land!" leads to, well, warfare.  Sometimes, that's warfare against little Guatemalan women...which is pathetic.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

4 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Trump actually referred to the military in today speech as “war fighters”. Pretty comical from President Bone Spurs, and a little frightening that he has no qualms in sending them off to war.

It's been that way for some time. Chickenhawks rule the GOP.

[Pancho 44834]

 

[F250 28777]

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have my doubts about the girl doing any swinging.  But I have my suspicions about people in her group doing some swinging.  I suspect the facts, timeline, and circumstances will be confusing as shit.  Which is a bad place to be when you're dealing with someone with a pistol.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people were throwing things or swinging something at the agent. My college roommate ended working in the BP for a couple of years. He said if you encountered a group alone it was not unusual for the group to start hurling shit at you. One time he had a dude standing above him try and toss a big ass rock on his head. My friend didn't shoot but did pull out his gun and threaten to shoot him if the guy didn't cut it out.

I'm with you on waiting for more information and while I am no fan of law enforcement, I do realize they are often in dangerous situations we civilians never experience.

 

[Brisketexan 105152]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if some people were throwing things or swinging something at the agent. My college roommate ended working in the BP for a couple of years. He said if you encountered a group alone it was not unusual for the group to start hurling shit at you. One time he had a dude standing above him try and toss a big ass rock on his head. My friend didn't shoot but did pull out his gun and threaten to shoot him if the guy didn't cut it out.

I'm with you on waiting for more information and while I am no fan of law enforcement, I do realize they are often in dangerous situations we civilians never experience.

 

And that's all I'm saying here.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Friday Nostalgia...

 

[David Dennison 18881]

Man, I wish I could vote for him again. Our country was in good hands with him in the White House.

Edited May 25, 2018 by David Dennison

[DDD Dad 14339]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

So, don't hit me with a 2x4.

What if you're being really annoying?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Man, I wish I could vote for him again. Our country was in good hands with him in the White House.

I blame him for sleeping at the wheel on Russian active measures.  He pussyfooted around Putin way too much.

[Brisketexan 105152]

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

What if you're being really annoying?

Throw a beer can at me, that's the normal protocol.  Trust me, I have experience in this field.

[Fudge Nuggets 19195]

I honestly thank God every fucking day that I no longer live in the United States.  I thank him even more for my dual citizenship.

Fuck this entire political system.

[thrillhammer 684]

33 minutes ago, Pancho Negro said:

poor melanie

 

[shnsajax 3591]

Throw a beer can at me, that's the normal protocol.  Trust me, I have experience in this field.

Two birds, one stone

[bolverk 29683]

Posting this for Brisket and other erstwhile Republicans:

Concerned by Trump, Some Republicans Quietly Align With Democrats

WASHINGTON — Since Donald J. Trump began dominating American politics more than two years ago, Democrats concerned about his policies and behavior have taken solace in a group of influential Republicans who have consistently assailed the president as anathema to the values of their party, and the country more broadly.

In the past year, however, influential liberal donors and operatives have gone from cheering these so-called Never Trump Republicans to quietly working with — and even funding — them. Through invitation-only emails and private, off-the-record meetings, they have formed a loose network of cross-partisan alliances aimed at helping neutralize President Trump, and preventing others from capitalizing on weaknesses in the political system that they say he has exploited.

While this network has mostly eschewed electoral politics, some involved see the potential for it to help form an ideological — and possibly financial — platform to back candidates, including a centrist challenge to Mr. Trump in 2020, possibly from within the G.O.P. or even a third party.

The network — composed of overlapping groups led by Democrats such as the donor Rachel Pritzker and several veteran Obama administration operatives, as well as leading Never Trump Republicans like Evan McMullin, Mindy Finn and William Kristol — aims to chart a middle path between a Republican base falling in line behind Mr. Trump and a liberal resistance trying to pull the Democratic Party left.

“If you’re a Republican who is concerned about the health of the liberal order and alarmed over the destruction of the norms of American democracy, there’s no reason you shouldn’t be willing to work with a Democrat who is equally concerned about those same matters,” said Jerry Taylor, a Republican who is president of the Niskanen Center, a moderate think tank that grew out of the libertarian Cato Institute.

While a slew of initiatives raised big money for cross-partisan bridge-building and even presidential campaigns in 2012, the current effort is different. It involves more players who are more actively involved in politics from across the spectrum, many of whom bring their own constituencies, making it less centralized and, in some ways, less organized.

Yet they are arguably more united than past efforts by their concern over threats to democracy they contend are embodied by a single politician: Mr. Trump.

It’s an amorphous, somewhat secretive effort, partly because some participants fear Mr. Trump and his allies would brand Never Trump Republicans as pawns of Democrats. Meeting locations, agendas and attendees are mostly kept quiet, while political intelligence is privately shared between participants on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

But some of the collaboration is becoming more overt.

Over the last couple of months, network members filed amicus briefs accusing Mr. Trump of overstepping his authority on matters ranging from immigration to his administration’s efforts to block a merger between AT&T and Time Warner. And last month, the Senate Judiciary Committee passed a bill to protect the special counsel investigating Russian meddling in the 2016 election, for which network members had lobbied.

“It was a kumbaya moment,” said Lisa Gilbert, an official at the left-leaning watchdog group Public Citizen, which helped coordinate lobbying by groups across the political spectrum.

A coalition involving many of the same groups is working to quickly mobilize mass protests across the country if Mr. Trump acts to impede the special counsel investigation. And next month organizers of a group of leading donors and operatives from the right and left called Patriots and Pragmatists are expecting their biggest turnout yet at a meeting in San Francisco, according to people familiar with the planning.

The Niskanen Center hosts a semimonthly invitation-only gathering of Trump critics called the Meeting of the Concerned, which attendees are asked to keep confidential. While it is attended primarily by a rotating cast of Never Trump Republicans — including the pundit Mr. Kristol and the former Representative Mickey Edwards — meetings sometimes include a Democrat or two presenting research or analysis on relevant issues. Attendees have included Ian Bassin, a former Obama White House lawyer who founded a watchdog group, Protect Democracy, that has sued the Trump administration and that has brought on staff members and advisers — including Mr. Taylor — from conservative or Republican backgrounds.

Other Republicans have been wary to get involved, Mr. Bassin said. “There is a troubling dynamic happening where anytime a conservative expresses concerns, they get branded a Never Trumper and are excommunicated from the American right.”

But Mr. Edwards, a Republican representative from Oklahoma from 1977 to 1993, said he was not worried about stigma. “Party identity really is being set aside. We have bigger fish to fry,” he said. He has become involved in a number of cross-partisan coalitions challenging Mr. Trump in recent months, including working with the former Obama administration lawyers Neal Katyal and Joshua Geltzer to file a legal brief in March in a court case opposing Mr. Trump’s proposed restrictions on travel from predominantly Muslim countries. “It’s really a much more free-form kind of resistance. It’s a movement more than an organization.”

Arguably the most intriguing of the cross-partisan gatherings are those convened by Patriots and Pragmatists, an informal coalition started in 2017 by Ms. Pritzker in response to the political polarization inflamed by the 2016 election.

Ms. Pritzker was a founding board member of the Democracy Alliance, a coalition of major liberal donors that has steered more than $600 million to the groups that comprise the institutional left since 2005. In 2010, though, she dropped out of the alliance and began redirecting her larger donations to efforts designed to break through partisan polarization, primarily on climate change and energy production.

The discussions at Patriots and Pragmatists meetings are intended to focus on big picture topics related to democracy, rather than elections or political funding. Nonetheless, some see the coalition as having the potential to bring the same kind of financial firepower to an anti-Trump centrist movement as the Democracy Alliance brought to the left. Its efforts were described by a dozen people familiar with the group, who spoke anonymously to describe private discussions.

The group has held three two-day gatherings outside San Francisco, New York and Washington, to which Ms. Pritzker and her political adviser invited 20 to 40 people per meeting. Gatherings have drawn influential Democratic operatives like Mr. Bassin and the Democracy Alliance founder Rob Stein. They have also attracted big-name Republican and conservative thinkers, writers and operatives including Mr. Taylor, the legal analyst Benjamin Wittes and the foreign policy hawks Mona Charen, David Frum, Robert Kagan, Mr. Kristol and Jennifer Rubin. Also attending were Mr. McMullin, who ran a long-shot independent conservative presidential campaign against Mr. Trump in 2016, and his running mate, Ms. Finn.

Perhaps most significantly, Patriots and Pragmatists gatherings have drawn major donors like William D. Budinger, a former Democracy Alliance board member, and representatives of deep-pocketed grant-writing foundations like Pierre Omidyar’s Democracy Fund and Democracy Fund Voice, and the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation’s Madison Initiative.

For the last few years, those foundations have been donating millions of dollars a year to bipartisan and nonpartisan groups advocating political reforms. But they redoubled their efforts after the 2016 election.

Stand Up Republic and Stand Up Ideas — founded by Mr. McMullin and Ms. Finn — have received a total of as much as $1.3 million from the Democracy Fund groups and the Madison Initiative. And Protect Democracy and the Protect Democracy Project — founded by Mr. Bassin — have received as much as $500,000 from those grant-writing foundations, according to financial information on their websites.

Mr. Bassin’s group teamed with Mr. McMullin and Ms. Finn’s to host a two-day conference in Washington in February called the National Summit for Democracy, which was funded partly by Ms. Pritzker and also by a foundation funded by a Republican donor, Jerry Hirsch. It brought together groups and leaders from the Never Trump right with the liberal resistance, centrist Democrats and government watchdog groups to discuss phenomena that have garnered increased concern in the Trump era — from foreign meddling in elections to attacks on the press and the special counsel, and federal law enforcement, more generally.

It’s too early to predict the outcome of the spike in cross-partisan organizing, Mr. Stein said. But he added that there was a “sense of urgency and intellectual vitality animating these efforts” that could “challenge conventional political wisdoms, 20th century political alliances and the two major, internally fractious, parties.”

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"Tell me Johnny, and be honest:  which historical college football powerhouse owns your ass?"

Edited May 25, 2018 by jimmyjazz