Donald Trump 2018

[GSU&UT 1798]

Just donated to the LEAF project which tries to give the separated families legal representation. For anyone who is an actual human being and therefore is sickened by this shit, I urge you to do the same or donate to a similar organization. This is pure fucking evil.

 

https://actionnetwork.org/fundraising/leafund

[Biff Tannen 45647]

1 minute ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Fuck all trumpkins that still support this wannabe fascist. Time for us sane, true Americans to stand up and say no more. November has to be our time to send a message. 

Yes.  I told my wife last night, if we are in this same spot at this time next year, I'm gonna start packing my bags.  I won't be a part of this country.  My soul has better places to be.

[tantric superman 4667]

1 hour ago, Jive Turkey said:

Robert Wilonsky had an excellent take down of Robert Jeffress the other day on this topic. 

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2018/06/07/robert-jeffresss-gospel-division-not-represent-dallas

 

 

[NIUHuskies 504]

10 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Oh, I know plenty who are upset.  But I don't see serious action.  This may not be approaching the levels of slavery as far as inhumanity, so I don't expect the kind of movement and actions of the Christians who founded the abolition movement.

My wife's main pastor (she goes back-and-forth between two churches) was one of the main speakers at the Southern Baptist shindig yesterday.  Ironically, his time was shuffled because of Pence.  I've heard plenty of his sermons over the past 10 years, and before the 2016 election, he made some comments that....made it clear he wasn't thrilled with either of the choices, but it wasn't too blatant, to the point people would get upset.  His church sends plenty of people to India, Africa, South America, etc., and they even have Spanish-language services at the church.

If he were to stand up Sunday morning and speak out against this stuff with the children, there would be a few hundred people who stand up and walk out.  

I have absolutely no doubt that many people at the church would support him, and are uncomfortable, but many will still pull that lever for the Rs come November.

"

“The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.” --Dante

[Hank Kingsley 20900]

6 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Just donated to the LEAF project which tries to give the separated families legal representation. For anyone who is an actual human being and therefore is sickened by this shit, I urge you to do the same or donate to a similar organization. This is pure fucking evil.

 

https://actionnetwork.org/fundraising/leafund

Thank you for the link. Just made a contribution from my family. 

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[jimmyjazz 45827]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There are some evil Trump supporters, no doubt.  The Nazis and white supremacist elements are bad people and should not be tolerated.

However, as someone that lives in the middle of Trump country, I can tell you there are many decent people that support Trump. 

They are not bad people and they can be persuaded if carefully challenged.  

We should pull these people closer in instead of pushing them away.  By rejecting them outright, we are only reinforcing their warped binary “us vs them” worldview and exacerbating the problem.

 

This is akin to playing Alabama in football.  We have to do everything right.  This includes identifying the people to persuade as well as identifying those to write off.  And believe me, we should write off a majority of Trump supporters.  It is a waste of time and energy to attempt to change their minds.  Doing so will literally seal the deal.  Midterms will not go the way we want.

I believe the lion's share of effort should be targeted towards getting out the vote.  There are huge numbers of people who did NOT vote in 2016 and they tilt away from Trump.  Find them, and do everything possible to get them to the polls.  Don't even try to tell them how to vote.  Just get them to vote.  That's priority #1.  After that, focus on those in that group who are being marginalized by this administration and make a clear, compelling case that the WAY they vote matters.

That should do it.  Ignore everybody else -- it's just effort with no payoff.

[Biff Tannen 45647]

5 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Thank you for the link. Just made a contribution from my family. 

 

 

Same

[Pancho 44654]

 

[NIUHuskies 504]

Just now, Biff Tannen said:

Same

Same times two

[Hank Kingsley 20900]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I believe the lion's share of effort should be targeted towards getting out the vote.  There are huge numbers of people who did NOT vote in 2016 and they tilt away from Trump.  Find them, and do everything possible to get them to the polls.  Don't even try to tell them how to vote.  Just get them to vote.  That's priority #1.  After that, focus on those in that group who are being marginalized by this administration and make a clear, compelling case that the WAY they vote matters.

This this this. Are you happy with the direction our country and leadership is heading? Then vote for it!  Think we need a change from the current leadership and direction of this country? Great, then vote!

If we have HUGE voter turnout and Trump/GOP are the victors, then the people have spoken. I'll take my wife and kid and we'll happily move to another country for a while.  

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Hank Kingsley

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

This is akin to playing Alabama in football.  We have to do everything right.  This includes identifying the people to persuade as well as identifying those to write off.  And believe me, we should write off a majority of Trump supporters.  It is a waste of time and energy to attempt to change their minds.  Doing so will literally seal the deal.  Midterms will not go the way we want.

I believe the lion's share of effort should be targeted towards getting out the vote.  There are huge numbers of people who did NOT vote in 2016 and they tilt away from Trump.  Find them, and do everything possible to get them to the polls.  Don't even try to tell them how to vote.  Just get them to vote.  That's priority #1.  After that, focus on those in that group who are being marginalized by this administration and make a clear, compelling case that the WAY they vote matters.

That should do it.  Ignore everybody else -- it's just effort with no payoff.

I agree with everything you said except the ignoring everybody else part.  You’re approach is the correct course of immediate political action.

My approach isn’t so much about the politics but going after the root of the problem on a grassroots level with the long term societal health in mind.

Even if your approach is successful, and I hope it is.  The problem will still be embedded in society no matter who is in charge. 

[Guest]

Question for those who think Trump is causing permanent damage to the US:

Stated explicitly, what are the verifiable/quantifiable things that have happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?  I often see statements about how he is ruining or has ruined the country, how we are done for, how things are changed forever now, and so on.  But it is difficult to separate out the hyperbole from what folks actually think is going to happen.   For example, do you actually think the country is going to split?  Do you think we will have another civil war?  Do you think the economy will collapse and unemployment rates will sky rocket?  Do you think China will control seas and replace us as the dominant military force?  If so, when do you think these things will occur?

How would your views on the perceived destruction caused by Trump change if after he leaves office (either 2020 or 2024) and a couple of years go by and you have the same or similar job, same or similar house, GDP and unemployment is still roughly the same, US is still united and still the dominant global superpower, and you and everyone you know has pretty much the same day to day lifestyle?

Edited June 16, 2018 by Guest

[Storm the Field 5289]

If you haven't seen it all, here are some of the lowlights:

1. Says Jeff Sessions is just forced to follow the horrible laws that the Democrats enacted.

2. Says the IG report, which was about FBI handling of Clinton investigation, completely exonerates him of colluding with the Russians. When pressed by reporters that it had nothing to do with that topic, keeps mumbling "read it, it's all in there. No collusion, no obstruction."

3. Says Paul Manafort has nothing to do with the Trump campaign.

4. Twice repeats the whopper about parents of Korean War KIA begging him to bring the remains home.

5. Says nobody cares about the fake statement he dictated regarding the Trump Tower meeting b/c it was to the failing NY Times, not a tribunal of judges.

6. Says Russia was kicked out of G8 "probably b/c Obama didn't like him."

[Hank Kingsley 20900]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I agree with everything you said except the ignoring everybody else part.  You’re approach is the correct course of immediate political action.

My approach isn’t so much about the politics but going after the root of the problem on a grassroots level with the long term societal health in mind.

Even if your approach is successful, and I hope it is.  The problem will still be embedded in society no matter who is in charge. 

You will never be able to convince a Trumpkin to feel differently. It will be need to be a catastrophic event that clearly is the fault of their dear leader, where even his propaganda machine can't defend him. 

So what America needs is non-GOP leadership for at least a couple of decades, to the point where Trumpism is just beaten down and not given a powerful voice in government or society. Then those people eventually die, and the younger generation will hopefully re-instill honesty/decency in this country.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

2 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Question for those who think Trump is causing permanent damage to the US:

Stated explicitly, what are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?  I often see statements about how he is ruining or has ruined the country, how we are done for, how things are changed forever now, and so on.  But it is difficult to separate out the hyperbole from what folks actually think is going to happen.   For example, do you actually think the country is going to split?  Do you think we will have another civil war?  Do you think the economy will collapse and unemployment rates will sky rocket?  Do you think China will control seas and replace us as the dominant military force?  If so, when do you think these things will occur?

How would your views on the perceived destruction caused by Trump change if after he leaves office (either 2020 or 2024) and a couple of years go by and you have the same or similar job, same or similar house, GDP and unemployment is still roughly the same, US is still united and still the dominant global superpower, and you and everyone you know has pretty much the same day to day?

Trump is basically following the old KGB subversion playbook.   I pointed this out a year ago and came off as crazy but now it’s even more clear.

Playbook in spoiler

Stage 1: Demoralization –  

promote anti-establishment beliefs. Anti-religion, anti-education, anti-immigrant, anti-science, anti-media, anti-government, anti-police, anti-anything of value to the society. This acts as a substitution of moral values.  

Natural ideological tendencies are greatly taken advantage of by propaganda. 

Goal is to destroy objective truth, facts don’t matter anymore. 


Stage 2: Destabilization –  

You let your target population destabilize themselves. 

Radicalization begins.  

Polarization occurs among family, friends, and neighbors...results in constant fighting...Compromise is impossible. 

Radicalization also includes militarization.  

Law and order erodes – Society becomes antagonistic within itself – divisions, fracturing. 

The media puts itself in opposition to the society at large.  

Divisive cultural issues come to the mainstream resulting in conflict, sometimes violently.  


Stage 3: Crisis –  

The government systems cannot function anymore.  

Society collapses- can't function properly  

Power struggle occurs.  

Society is looking for a savior – some strong leader, population is sick and tired of the same old same old. 

This leads to two possible outcomes: 
1. Civil War 
2. Invasion  


Stage 4: Normalization –  

The self appointed rulers don't need any revolution or radicalization anymore.  

Dissidents are eliminated/suppressed.  

Stability is required to then exploit the nation. No more protests/strikes. 

[WhatTheBuck 28764]

3 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

4. Twice repeats the whopper about parents of Korean War KIA begging him to bring the remains home.

"Thousands and thousands" of them. 

[Hank Kingsley 20900]

13 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Question for those who think Trump is causing permanent damage to the US:

Stated explicitly, what are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?  I often see statements about how he is ruining or has ruined the country, how we are done for, how things are changed forever now, and so on.  But it is difficult to separate out the hyperbole from what folks actually think is going to happen.   For example, do you actually think the country is going to split?  Do you think we will have another civil war?  Do you think the economy will collapse and unemployment rates will sky rocket?  Do you think China will control seas and replace us as the dominant military force?  If so, when do you think these things will occur?

How would your views on the perceived destruction caused by Trump change if after he leaves office (either 2020 or 2024) and a couple of years go by and you have the same or similar job, same or similar house, GDP and unemployment is still roughly the same, US is still united and still the dominant global superpower, and you and everyone you know has pretty much the same day to day lifestyle?

The damage Trumpism will cause is more rooted in the thought process of American citizens.  Dishonesty, insincerity, and indecency are not only accepted, but CELEBRATED by Trumpkins.  Words don't matter anymore. The truth doesn't matter anymore. It's not what you can do for your country, it's what your country can do for you. This thought process started way before Trump, but it is now 100% legitimized and activated by this administration. 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Hank Kingsley

[Biff Tannen 45647]

10 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

If you haven't seen it all, here are some of the lowlights:

1. Says Jeff Sessions is just forced to follow the horrible laws that the Democrats enacted.

2. Says the IG report, which was about FBI handling of Clinton investigation, completely exonerates him of colluding with the Russians. When pressed by reporters that it had nothing to do with that topic, keeps mumbling "read it, it's all in there. No collusion, no obstruction."

3. Says Paul Manafort has nothing to do with the Trump campaign.

4. Twice repeats the whopper about parents of Korean War KIA begging him to bring the remains home.

5. Says nobody cares about the fake statement he dictated regarding the Trump Tower meeting b/c it was to the failing NY Times, not a tribunal of judges.

6. Says Russia was kicked out of G8 "probably b/c Obama didn't like him."

[Mapache 1117]

"I want my people to do the same". I assume he's referring to nazis, racists and his ignorant white trash supporters.

 

0:14

97.4K views

 

5:55 AM - 15 Jun 2018

 

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0:14

97.4K views

 

5:55 AM - 15 Jun 2018

 

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Edited June 15, 2018 by Mapache

[Chuckie Finster 22688]

18 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Question for those who think Trump is causing permanent damage to the US:

Stated explicitly, what are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?  I often see statements about how he is ruining or has ruined the country, how we are done for, how things are changed forever now, and so on.  But it is difficult to separate out the hyperbole from what folks actually think is going to happen.   For example, do you actually think the country is going to split?  Do you think we will have another civil war?  Do you think the economy will collapse and unemployment rates will sky rocket?  Do you think China will control seas and replace us as the dominant military force?  If so, when do you think these things will occur?

How would your views on the perceived destruction caused by Trump change if after he leaves office (either 2020 or 2024) and a couple of years go by and you have the same or similar job, same or similar house, GDP and unemployment is still roughly the same, US is still united and still the dominant global superpower, and you and everyone you know has pretty much the same day to day?

I think, no I know, that Trump has deepened the divide in this country.  I'm not a fortune teller, so I have no idea what the future holds, but purposefully separating the country into two separate groups is a serious issue with potential disastrous consequences.

I think the norms of what is acceptable from the leader of our country have been permanently altered.  "At least he's not as bad as Trump" will be used for the foreseeable future from both sides to defend unacceptable behavior.

I think the seeds of doubt have been planted in the general public against important Federal agencies.  There were a few individuals who acted improperly, yes, but now a huge portion of the country will dismiss any conclusions reached by the FBI on any issue they disagree with.  This will pose problematic, perhaps sooner rather than later.

I think it has been established that truth, or even the vague attempt at appearing truthful, is no longer a requirement from the White House.  

I think the next President will be forced to mend relationships with our important allies, thus setting him/her up for an endless loop of "bowing before other countries" commentary from the right.  Trump has created a cycle that will doom future Presidents before they step foot in office.

On top of that, your question is flawed.  "Permanent Damage" is a relative term.  Sure, for a white, Christian, upper-middle class family, odds are that not much will change no matter who is in office.  But for many minorities, both citizens and non-citizens, the Trump Presidency has already done permanent damage to their lives.  Who cares who is "controlling the seas" when my child was ripped from my arms, never to be seen again?  Who cares about the unemployment rate when my daughter was hit and killed by a white supremacist as she peacefully protested?

Odds are that we will be fine economically.  But for many of us, the prestige of the United States is more than our GDP, and THAT'S what we are worried has been irreparably damaged.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[wildcat09 29323]

15 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Question for those who think Trump is causing permanent damage to the US:

Stated explicitly, what are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?  I often see statements about how he is ruining or has ruined the country, how we are done for, how things are changed forever now, and so on.  But it is difficult to separate out the hyperbole from what folks actually think is going to happen.   For example, do you actually think the country is going to split?  Do you think we will have another civil war?  Do you think the economy will collapse and unemployment rates will sky rocket?  Do you think China will control seas and replace us as the dominant military force?  If so, when do you think these things will occur?

How would your views on the perceived destruction caused by Trump change if after he leaves office (either 2020 or 2024) and a couple of years go by and you have the same or similar job, same or similar house, GDP and unemployment is still roughly the same, US is still united and still the dominant global superpower, and you and everyone you know has pretty much the same day to day lifestyle?

The nazi regime was (for a time) great for the careers of plenty of "good Germans." 

[staboner 4969]

29 minutes ago, Pancho Negro said:

 

@GRHorn nothing to see here mate. nope, no hint of fascism at all, anywhere with trump and/or his admin 

or maybe trump is just a massively insecure bitch, like what your bitchass has turned into on this board. making excuses for trump shitting on our country.  a motherfuck to you this friday you bootlicking POS

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump is basically following the old KGB subversion playbook.   I pointed this out a year ago and came off as crazy but now it’s even more clear.

Playbook in spoiler

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Stage 1: Demoralization –  

promote anti-establishment beliefs. Anti-religion, anti-education, anti-immigrant, anti-science, anti-media, anti-government, anti-police, anti-anything of value to the society. This acts as a substitution of moral values.  

Natural ideological tendencies are greatly taken advantage of by propaganda. 

Goal is to destroy objective truth, facts don’t matter anymore. 


Stage 2: Destabilization –  

You let your target population destabilize themselves. 

Radicalization begins.  

Polarization occurs among family, friends, and neighbors...results in constant fighting...Compromise is impossible. 

Radicalization also includes militarization.  

Law and order erodes – Society becomes antagonistic within itself – divisions, fracturing. 

The media puts itself in opposition to the society at large.  

Divisive cultural issues come to the mainstream resulting in conflict, sometimes violently.  


Stage 3: Crisis –  

The government systems cannot function anymore.  

Society collapses- can't function properly  

Power struggle occurs.  

Society is looking for a savior – some strong leader, population is sick and tired of the same old same old. 

This leads to two possible outcomes: 
1. Civil War 
2. Invasion  


Stage 4: Normalization –  

The self appointed rulers don't need any revolution or radicalization anymore.  

Dissidents are eliminated/suppressed.  

Stability is required to then exploit the nation. No more protests/strikes. 

 

These are statements on what you believe Trump is trying to accomplish.   I used to hear similar such speculations from folks on what Obama was trying to accomplish.  These type of statements are impossible to falsify.  

I'm asking what things you believe will happen that can be verified.  "People seem more polarized" is not an easily verifiable statement.  "Unemployment will increase by 5% by 2020" is an easily verifiable prediction.

 

10 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The damage Trumpism will cause is more rooted in the thought process of American citizens.  Dishonesty, insincerity, and indecency are not only accepted, but CELEBRATED by Trumpkins.  Words don't matter anymore. The truth doesn't matter anymore. It's not what you can do for your country, it's what your country can do for you. This though process started way before Trump, but it is now 100% legitimize and activated by this administration. 

 

These are not easily verifiable statements.  What are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?

 

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The nazi regime was (for a time) great for the careers of plenty of "good Germans." 

Is your prediction that the US is going to create concentration camps or invade our neighboring nations like the nazis?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Guest

[jimmyjazz 45827]

1 minute ago, Aphelion said:

What are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?

Civil war.

Not kidding.

[wildcat09 29323]

We're already creating concentration camps.

[TornACL 7696]

26 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Question for those who think Trump is causing permanent damage to the US:

Stated explicitly, what are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?  I often see statements about how he is ruining or has ruined the country, how we are done for, how things are changed forever now, and so on.  But it is difficult to separate out the hyperbole from what folks actually think is going to happen.   For example, do you actually think the country is going to split?  Do you think we will have another civil war?  Do you think the economy will collapse and unemployment rates will sky rocket?  Do you think China will control seas and replace us as the dominant military force?  If so, when do you think these things will occur?

How would your views on the perceived destruction caused by Trump change if after he leaves office (either 2020 or 2024) and a couple of years go by and you have the same or similar job, same or similar house, GDP and unemployment is still roughly the same, US is still united and still the dominant global superpower, and you and everyone you know has pretty much the same day to day lifestyle?

A lot of people today speak in hyperbole because it gets attention. Reason gets skimmed over, Chicken Little gets the headline. The approach you seem to be taking is to attack the most hysterical, and use that to justify that all opposition is misguided. So let's not say the sky is falling just yet but let's review just some of the extremely concerning developments over the past 18 months. There's a long list of them, and I question the intellectual honesty of anyone who isn't concerned about any of them.

Cutting taxes and increasing spending has never worked. Our domestic economic plan is slipshod and doesn't appear to be based in any kind of academic or historical insight. Not surprising, considering those who are drafting it seem to be devoid of intellectual curiosity.

We're willingly walking away from the ideals and institutions upon which this country was founded. While I believe a layer of skepticism towards all things is healthy, the administration is strategically attacking and attempting to dismantle these things in order to clear the way for God knows what. And has been well established, those attacks are consistently absent of facts. At this point, I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not a clear strategy from the top.

Like it or not, this is a global economy. Protectionism and economic isolationism is a bizarre and blazingly ignorant philosophy in the 21st century, and will do long term damage to the country. Using the term Globalist as a epithet is a red badge of ignorance.

Tariffs and added governmental interference will do nothing but drive inflation higher. There is nothing efficient about it at all, but of course to debate the merits of tariffs assumes that our president actually has a cogent strategy, which I'd argue is not the case.

Our absurd and pointless confrontational approach to our friends and allies has put us in the back seat when it comes to leading the world. What are we achieving? At what cost? I'm not sure how anyone can look at this development and see it as a positive. It can be repaired, but it will require us to elect someone who actually knows what the fuck he/she is doing in 2020.

We haven't mentioned the fact that our President OPENLY AND PUBLICLY FAWNS OVER DICTATORIAL LEADERS. How can anybody accept this? You cannot on one hand claim to want peace and to stop playing games, and then on the other hand play games and publicly belittle our allies' leaders.

You can get lost in speculation as to why all of this is happening. I'll just say that it's definitely bizarre, and perhaps telling, that the USA has appeared to do a complete 180 and adopt the foreign policy positions of Russia over the past 18 months. In a more sane era, there would have been chaos in D.C. when the President of the United States questioned the opposition of Russia's annexation of Ukraine. You hope that this is the scattershooting of a clearly uneducated and unfit man, who has little to no ability to think and talk on his feet. But I suspect it's something more nefarious.

I think your last paragraph is telling, and I do believe a lot of people in this country would urinate on the constitution and the graves of the founding fathers, so long as it meant that their comfortable suburban lifestyle is preserved, and that they perceive their families to be safe from brown people. That way of thinking is fucked.

Edited June 15, 2018 by TornACL

[Mojo Hand 4580]

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The nazi regime was (for a time) great for the careers of plenty of "good Germans." 

They were just bringing the berliners. 

['stache 21786]

6 minutes ago, TornACL said:

A lot of people today speak in hyperbole because it gets attention. Reason gets skimmed over, Chicken Little gets the headline. The approach you seem to be taking is to attack the most hysterical, and use that to justify that all opposition is misguided. That said...it's ridiculous for anyone to dismiss the extremely concerning developments over the past 18 months. There's a long list of them, and I question the intellectual honesty of anyone who isn't concerned about any of them.

Cutting taxes and increasing spending has never worked. Our domestic economic plan is slipshod and doesn't appear to be based in any kind of academic or historical insight. Not surprising, considering those who are drafting it seem to be devoid of intellectual curiosity.

We're willingly walking away from the ideals and institutions upon which this country was founded. While I believe a layer of skepticism towards all things is healthy, the administration is strategically attacking and attempting to dismantle these things in order to clear the way for God knows what. And has been well established, those attacks are consistently absent of facts. At this point, I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not a clear strategy from the top.

Like it or not, this is a global economy. Protectionism and economic isolationism is a bizarre and blazingly ignorant philosophy in the 21st century, and will do long term damage to the country. Using the term Globalist as a epithet is a red badge of ignorance.

Tariffs and added governmental interference will do nothing but drive inflation higher. There is nothing efficient about it at all, but of course to debate the merits of tariffs assumes that our president actually has a cogent strategy, which I'd argue is not the case.

Our absurd and pointless confrontational approach to our friends and allies has put us in the back seat when it comes to leading the world. What are we achieving? At what cost? I'm not sure how anyone can look at this development and see it as a positive. It can be repaired, but it will require us to elect someone who actually knows what the fuck he/she is doing in 2020.

We haven't mentioned the fact that our President OPENLY AND PUBLICLY FAWNS OVER DICTATORIAL LEADERS. How can anybody accept this? You cannot on one hand claim to want peace and to stop playing games, and then on the other hand play games and publicly belittle our allies' leaders.

You can get lost in speculation as to why all of this is happening. I'll just say that it's definitely bizarre, and perhaps telling, that the USA has appeared to do a complete 180 and adopt the foreign policy positions of Russia over the past 18 months. In a more sane era, there would have been chaos in D.C. when the President of the United States questioned the opposition of Russia's annexation of Ukraine. You hope that this is the scattershooting of a clearly uneducated and unfit man, who has little to no ability to think and talk on his feet. But I suspect it's something more nefarious.

I think your last paragraph is telling, and I do believe a lot of people in this country would urinate on the constitution and the graves of the founding fathers, so long as it meant that their comfortable suburban lifestyle is preserved, and that they perceive their families to be safe from brown people. That way of thinking is fucked.

All of this, though I do have some concern in the back of my mind of worse implications pointed out by Hugo.  But even if you think the wildest concerns are over the top, does it really not concern you that the fucking president of the United States is praising the leader of North Korea, saying he wishes Americans would respect him the way North Koreans "respect" their dear leader?  All the while he can't get along with the leader of fucking Canada?  That he's hurting our relationship with our closes allies and trade partners by being unintelligent and belligerent?  That he tweets like an angry school girl?  That alone hurts the respectability of the United States as a nation.  The pure absurdity of Trump's personality and way of handling business separates what we're seeing from anything we've seen in the past and its concerning, if not outright alarming.

Edited June 15, 2018 by 'stache

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

11 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

I used to hear similar such speculations from folks on what Obama was trying to accomplish. 

This is a valuable observation as this theory originated with the anti-Obama crowd.  I think this was a deliberate setup to easily disregard the theory when applied to Trump. 

It’s like the “accuse your opponents of exactly what you’re guilty of.”

“The democrats colluded with Russia! The democrats were the ones that obstructed! Hillary used the Clinton Foundation as a pay for play operation! The media is fake news! Comey is the real liar!”

I’m not saying Trump is a diabolical genius following a scripted word for word subversion strategy.

I’m saying it’s pretty damn close.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[TornACL 7696]

11 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

These are not easily verifiable statements.  What are the verifiable/quantifiable things have that happened or will happen as a result of Trump that will lead to permanent significant harm or destruction of the US?

This is a stupid argument. So if I can't check all of your carefully selected boxes and give you quantifiable things that will cause permanent (why is that the bar?) harm, then are you going to counter that my concerns are unwarranted?

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Manafort to jail. Giant nothingburger going on. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

14 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Is your prediction that the US is going to create concentration camps or invade our neighboring nations like the nazis?

The US isn't going to end up in any significant way like Nazi Germany, but the main reason for that is the resistance to Trump from independents and the left — that is, the very people raising these concerns precisely because they are accurate with respect to Trump and his cult followers.   And what Trump is already doing within the system, between elections, is already bad enough by the standards of our American ideals.   The existing child internment camps and family separations on the border is absolutely despicable. 

[shnsajax 3591]

3 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Manafort to jail. Giant nothingburger going on. 

Yeah, but he had like nothing to do with his campaign. I mean, he got coffee that one time and I am pretty sure he went to Kinko's as well. 

[Washpark 176]

6 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Manafort to jail. Giant nothingburger going on. 

BUUUUUUUUT CLINTON EMAILSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Homercles 10205]

For the first time in my life, I feel like my country is actually kind of in danger

I tell people this a lot...was always dismissive of how that uppity Obama was ruining this country and people always gave vague responses like ‘politicizing the IRS’ and ‘gun rights’, but now there are concrete things like ‘my people’ that really make me feel like my country as I know it is being challenged.

[Chuckie Finster 22688]

3 minutes ago, Homercles said:

 

I tell people this a lot...was always dismissive of how that uppity Obama was ruining this country and people always gave vague responses like ‘politicizing the IRS’ and ‘gun rights’, but now there are concrete things like ‘my people’ that really make me feel like my country as I know it is being challenged.

 

It's like Trump is actually doing all the shit people worried Obama would/could do.

[Guest]

Thanks for the answers.

 

40 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I think, no I know, that Trump has deepened the divide in this country.  I'm not a fortune teller, so I have no idea what the future holds, but purposefully separating the country into two separate groups is a serious issue with potential disastrous consequences.

I think the norms of what is acceptable from the leader of our country have been permanently altered.  "At least he's not as bad as Trump" will be used for the foreseeable future from both sides to defend unacceptable behavior.

I think the seeds of doubt have been planted in the general public against important Federal agencies.  There were a few individuals who acted improperly, yes, but now a huge portion of the country will dismiss any conclusions reached by the FBI on any issue they disagree with.  This will pose problematic, perhaps sooner rather than later.

I think it has been established that truth, or even the vague attempt at appearing truthful, is no longer a requirement from the White House.  

I think the next President will be forced to mend relationships with our important allies, thus setting him/her up for an endless loop of "bowing before other countries" commentary from the right.  Trump has created a cycle that will doom future Presidents before they step foot in office.

On top of that, your question is flawed.  "Permanent Damage" is a relative term.  Sure, for a white, Christian, upper-middle class family, odds are that not much will change no matter who is in office.  But for many minorities, both citizens and non-citizens, the Trump Presidency has already done permanent damage to their lives.  Who cares who is "controlling the seas" when my child was ripped from my arms, never to be seen again?  Who cares about the unemployment rate when my daughter was hit and killed by a white supremacist as she peacefully protested?

Odds are that we will be fine economically.  But for many of us, the prestige of the United States is more than our GDP, and THAT'S what we are worried has been irreparably damaged.

So the central concern is the damaged prestige of the US.  How do you evaluate the prestige of a nation?

 

34 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Civil war.

Not kidding.

By when do you think the country will descend into civil war? 

 

34 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We're already creating concentration camps.

When will the concentration camps that exterminate its residents become active?  

The reason I ask is because if no date or even a vague timeline is given then the prediction is not verifiable. 

 

32 minutes ago, TornACL said:

A lot of people today speak in hyperbole because it gets attention. Reason gets skimmed over, Chicken Little gets the headline. The approach you seem to be taking is to attack the most hysterical, and use that to justify that all opposition is misguided. So let's not say the sky is falling just yet but let's review just some of the extremely concerning developments over the past 18 months. There's a long list of them, and I question the intellectual honesty of anyone who isn't concerned about any of them.

Cutting taxes and increasing spending has never worked. Our domestic economic plan is slipshod and doesn't appear to be based in any kind of academic or historical insight. Not surprising, considering those who are drafting it seem to be devoid of intellectual curiosity.

We're willingly walking away from the ideals and institutions upon which this country was founded. While I believe a layer of skepticism towards all things is healthy, the administration is strategically attacking and attempting to dismantle these things in order to clear the way for God knows what. And has been well established, those attacks are consistently absent of facts. At this point, I don't see how anyone can argue that this is not a clear strategy from the top.

Like it or not, this is a global economy. Protectionism and economic isolationism is a bizarre and blazingly ignorant philosophy in the 21st century, and will do long term damage to the country. Using the term Globalist as a epithet is a red badge of ignorance.

Tariffs and added governmental interference will do nothing but drive inflation higher. There is nothing efficient about it at all, but of course to debate the merits of tariffs assumes that our president actually has a cogent strategy, which I'd argue is not the case.

Our absurd and pointless confrontational approach to our friends and allies has put us in the back seat when it comes to leading the world. What are we achieving? At what cost? I'm not sure how anyone can look at this development and see it as a positive. It can be repaired, but it will require us to elect someone who actually knows what the fuck he/she is doing in 2020.

We haven't mentioned the fact that our President OPENLY AND PUBLICLY FAWNS OVER DICTATORIAL LEADERS. How can anybody accept this? You cannot on one hand claim to want peace and to stop playing games, and then on the other hand play games and publicly belittle our allies' leaders.

You can get lost in speculation as to why all of this is happening. I'll just say that it's definitely bizarre, and perhaps telling, that the USA has appeared to do a complete 180 and adopt the foreign policy positions of Russia over the past 18 months. In a more sane era, there would have been chaos in D.C. when the President of the United States questioned the opposition of Russia's annexation of Ukraine. You hope that this is the scattershooting of a clearly uneducated and unfit man, who has little to no ability to think and talk on his feet. But I suspect it's something more nefarious.

I think your last paragraph is telling, and I do believe a lot of people in this country would urinate on the constitution and the graves of the founding fathers, so long as it meant that their comfortable suburban lifestyle is preserved, and that they perceive their families to be safe from brown people. That way of thinking is fucked.

To be clear I don't think very much of Trump and I understand why he is so reviled by many.  My point is that I think the most effective way to engage & discuss the situation is through verifiable accusations and predictions.  So much of it is nebulous perceptions and unverifiable speculations on what it may lead to.  If he is that bad (and I do agree he does many terrible things) then it should be easy to be explicit.  

In regards to why Trump is openly fawning over Kim Jung-Un, it is because he is trying to negotiate a treaty and flattery is a basic form of manipulation.  And it's likely effective in this case as by most accounts Kim Jung-Un is not very bright and loves to be praised.  So Trump is not going to use the opportunity to lecture him on his crimes against humanity and no one who has ever work with negotiations, compromises, or treatises would recommend that approach.  Of the many legitimate reasons to criticize Trump, it's odd to pick this one. 

 

22 minutes ago, TornACL said:

This is a stupid argument. So if I can't check all of your carefully selected boxes and give you quantifiable things that will cause permanent (why is that the bar?) harm, then are you going to counter that my concerns are unwarranted?

 

It's a question, not an argument.  I'm trying to better understand the concerns.  

Edited June 15, 2018 by Guest

[Aqua Buddha 14581]

We finally found something that even the evangelicals can't support from Trump.  I'm legitimately stunned at this:

 

More than two dozen of the largest religious groups in the U.S. are imploring the Trump administration to change its "zero tolerance" policy that leads to children being separated from parents caught illegally crossing the border.

And during an interview with the Christian Broadcasting Network this week, Franklin Graham, a staunch supporter of President Donald Trump, said the practice of separating families was “disgraceful.”

The growing list of religious leaders and organizations writing letters and making statements includes several leading evangelical churches and institutions, which often align themselves with Republicans politically.

"As evangelical Christians guided by the Bible, one of our core convictions is that God has established the family as the fundamental building block of society. The state should separate families only in the rarest of instances,” Russell Moore, President of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, and other evangelical leaders wrote in a group letter to the White House.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/religious-leaders-implore-trump-white-house-stop-separating/story?id=55905666

[jimmyjazz 45827]

1 minute ago, Aphelion said:

By when do you think the country will descend into civil war? 

Next Thursday.

I realize you're "just asking questions".  You're transparent, and wholly disingenuous.

[Foosters 17799]

6 minutes ago, Homercles said:

 

I tell people this a lot...was always dismissive of how that uppity Obama was ruining this country and people always gave vague responses like ‘politicizing the IRS’ and ‘gun rights’, but now there are concrete things like ‘my people’ that really make me feel like my country as I know it is being challenged.

 

I'm not terribly worried. I mean, Trump and his bootlickers have been telling us for years how many crimes their enemies have been committing. After all the shouting and accusations, they've somehow only managed to indict their own.

[Nivek 16913]

Gerrymandering is at the root of team over country.  When we allow this to go unchecked we sow the seeds for bending rules to favor our team over our fellow man's choice.  

[DixonHur 11288]

4 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Thanks for the answers.

 

So the central concern is the damaged prestige of the US.  How do you evaluate the prestige of a nation?

 

By when do you think the country will descend into civil war? 

 

When will the concentration camps that exterminate its residents become active?  

The reason I ask is because if no date or even a vague timeline is given then the prediction is not verifiable. 

 

To be clear I don't think very much of Trump and I understand why he is so reviled by many.  My point is that I think the most effective way to engage & discuss the situation is through verifiable accusations and predictions.  So much of it is nebulous perceptions and unverifiable speculations on what it may lead to.  If he is that bad (and I do agree he does many terrible things) then it should be easy to be explicit.  

In regards to why Trump is openly fawning over Kim Jung-Un, it is because he is trying to negotiate a treaty and flattery is a basic form of manipulation.  And it's likely effective in this case as by most accounts Kim Jung-Un is not very bright and loves to be praised.  So Trump is not going to use the opportunity to lecture him on his crimes against humanity and no one who has ever work with negotiations, compromises, or treatises would recommend that approach.  Of the many legitimate reasons to criticize Trump, it's odd to pick this one. 

 

It's a question, not an argument.  I'm trying to better understand the concerns.  

If you've been conscious during the last 18 months and don't think there's a problem....you might be a Trumpkin.

['stache 21786]

15 minutes ago, Homercles said:

 

I tell people this a lot...was always dismissive of how that uppity Obama was ruining this country and people always gave vague responses like ‘politicizing the IRS’ and ‘gun rights’, but now there are concrete things like ‘my people’ that really make me feel like my country as I know it is being challenged.

 

This is not a "both side" issue, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.  Slimy half-truths, taking money from shady donors and wall street, promising to do things in a campaign with no intention of following through--those are "both sides suck" kind of things.  Praising a dictator, insulting our allies and trade partners on twitter, nominating white nationalists on republican tickets, these are things solely on the right.  It's scary.

[TornACL 7696]

12 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

To be clear I don't think very much of Trump and I understand why he is so reviled by many.  My point is that I think the most effective way to engage & discuss the situation is through verifiable accusations and predictions.  So much of it is nebulous perceptions and unverifiable speculations on what it may lead to.  If he is that bad (and I do agree he does many terrible things) then it should be easy to be explicit.  

In regards to why Trump is openly fawning over Kim Jung-Un, it is because he is trying to negotiate a treaty and flattery is a basic form of manipulation.  And it's likely effective in this case as by most accounts Kim Jung-Un is not very bright and loves to be praised.  So Trump is not going to use the opportunity to lecture him on his crimes against humanity and no one who has ever work with negotiations, compromises, or treatises would recommend that approach.  Of the many legitimate reasons to criticize Trump, it's odd to pick this one. 

Are you sure you're talking about Kim and not Trump?

It's not quantifiable or a verifiable fact to suggest that Trump goes against the norms and values upon which this country was founded. Because when you make that statement, the other side moves the goalposts. Hell, Trump himself moves the goalposts by making inane statements like "I mean, I can go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done". So are you suggesting it's not worthy of discussion because it's not effective?

By the way, your understanding of negotiations is, to put it nicely, quite basic.

Edited June 15, 2018 by TornACL

[TornACL 7696]

11 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

It's a question, not an argument.  I'm trying to better understand the concerns.  

If you were legitimately trying to "better understand", you wouldn't put so many qualifications around it.

[DixonHur 11288]

1 minute ago, TornACL said:

By the way, your understanding of negotiations is, to put it nicely, quite basic.

To be fair, so is Trump's

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just asking questions 

[Hank Kingsley 20900]

Aphelion wants people to provide factual information and data to “properly” criticize an administration/base that blatantly disregards factual information and data. It’s a worthless exercise. 

[TornACL 7696]

Just now, Hank Kingsley said:

Aphelion wants people to provide factual information and data to “properly” criticize an administration/base that blatantly disregards factual information and data. It’s a worthless exercise. 

Also, so long as no quantifiable or permanent damage is done to the country, we're all wasting our time, apparently. So long as we all have our same jobs and lifestyle in 2020, it's ok that Trump publicly adores dictators. Because he's just trying to flatter them. He's the first person in human history to come up with that negotiation strategy, all our other previous world leaders were too dumb to think of it. If only Bush, Clinton, Bush, or Obama had just said nice things to the Kim Jong Il or Un, this all would have been put to bed decades ago.

4-D chess, for sure.