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Donald Trump 2018

TheFlyingBoat

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M12BH
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SInce y'all seem to be my clearinghouse for all things political, let me tell a story.  A couple of them, actually.  Three, if you want to be specific. When I was 14 I went with a family frien

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

The requirement that graduates "retain employment associated with the degree for a minimum number of years after graduation" (or what? they pay back the cost of obtaining their degree?) will lead to similar issues that obtain in the current system.  

that's really kind of funny.  my degree was in english but i didn't pursue that field like i expected to.  i gravitated over time into design work in aerospace where i helped design a good many different airplanes, several times helped update our space suits, and participated in the aborted design of one stupid trash truck.  i sure would hate to have to repay the cost of getting that english degree because i didn't stay in that field.

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

You can't base anything off what aggy does.  Its not even about athletic donors.  Its about having more alumni living in Texas than UT has so that they can pretend they are "The University of Texas".  They will happily water down the quality of their education to do that.

i think they are hoping to puff the odds of fielding a replicating chain of james richard perrys.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

This is a good post. I don't think it's worth the time trying to convince anyone who still supports Trump and many others who can't see what good the Democratic party can bring, but of course we should try to talk to anyone who is considering voting D for the first time. I also couldn't agree more about the healthcare issue, I've been a huge proponent of that being the main platform to run on (instead of simply being anti-Trump) because it should be an issue that damn near everyone can relate to. I'd be a lot more aggressive than some and point to the current administration and Republicans continually trying to undermine the ACA when it's clear that the majority of Americans now support ACA.

Yep, we need to get single payer passed.  Then it will be popular and politically self sustaining like social security.

Look at the NHS.  The UK is just as embroiled in xenophobia as we are, right now, and all those leave voters love the NHS.  In fact, the primary complaint about the NHS is that the Tory gov't doesn't fund it well enough and is going to fuck it up.

At the end of the day, single payer will help poor small town Americans the most even as they are encouraged to fight against it.  Once they have it, they will fight for it though.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted

 

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

These.  The purity test this last election caused a schism on the left. Many of the hard-left wing (Bernie bros etc.), pissed about Hillary, did one of the following things: 1) stayed home, 2) voted for Stein or Johnson, or 3) even voted for Trump.  The election was decided by a few thousand votes in a few states.  That's a difference-maker.  You can pretend it wasn't, but that just makes you look even more foolish.

I can look at statistics; no pretending needed. The number of Bernie primary voters who did not vote for Clinton was right in line with the historical average for flex in the electorate. It happens every year in every election at all levels. It is always ~10%.

There are outliers (Hillary->McCain 25%, Kasich->Clinton 34%), but the Bernie->Trump crew was right in line with the 10% historical average.

And you're dead wrong in assuming that Bernie primary voters were "leftist", especially in strong union Rust Belt states. No leftist thinker went Trump, they would only go Stein.

 

Quote

See, I want to convince the GOP to act in the best interest of the country. 

A statement that literally means nothing and is purposefully vague.

Quote

You think you're righteous.  You think you're principled.  You're just bad at math, and bad at strategy.  It's okay.  The party's recent electoral performance confirms that there will ALWAYS be a home for thinkers like you in the Democrat party.

"You're bad at strategy," the guy whose side produced Donald John Trump.

lol tell me more about your awesome strategies

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32854

Posted
Posted
You laugh.  I bet that we could come up with some scam to protect the olds against "MS-13 comin' to git ya" and make a fortune.
Shit, we oughta just sell MS-13 insurance.  If anyone in your household is attacked by an MS-13 member, we cover all your expenses.*
 
* This offer not available if you're Central American, and thus a member of the only group of people who actually has something to fear from MS-13.
I'm not kidding when I say this is a good idea. I absolutely believe you could sell MS-13 insurance to millions of idiots right now.

"For just $19.95 per month we cover all funeral expenses for any immediate family member killed by MS-13."
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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45903

Posted
Posted
Just now, bad_teammate said:

 

I can look at statistics; no pretending needed. The number of Bernie primary voters who did not vote for Clinton was right in line with the historical average for flex in the electorate. It happens every year in every election at all levels. It is always ~10%.

It was higher than 10%.  Your points continue to be stupid.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted

To get someone's vote, you need to tell them a story. They need a vision.

"THIS MAN IS SO AWFUL!" is not going to win anything. Anyone who didn't vote for Hillary in 2016 is not going to vote for a Democrat in 2020. They'll toss some virtue signalling votes in a mid-term, but when the presidential election comes calling they will find the 2020 Democrat candidate too progressive and will either (1) come home for the Supreme Court or (2) virtue signal some more with another Gary Johnson vote.

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32854

Posted
Posted



that's really kind of funny.  my degree was in english but i didn't pursue that field like i expected to.  i gravitated over time into design work in aerospace where i helped design a good many different airplanes, several times helped update our space suits, and participated in the aborted design of one stupid trash truck.  i sure would hate to have to repay the cost of getting that english degree because i didn't stay in that field.


You did pay the cost of getting that degree.
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It was higher than 10%.  Your points continue to be stupid.

12% qualifies as "~10%"

Not to be Ben Shapiro here, but facts don't care about your feelings.

25% of Hillary primary voters went to McCain

34% of Kasich primary voters went to Hillary

Those are swings. ~10% is the historical mean.

Edited by bad_teammate
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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted

this is really kind of fucked-up software.  in addition to my present bitch, take a look at the front page.

you see:

Indictments Pending in the Robert Mueller Investigation 1 2 3 4 126

why the hell do we have option to pick on 2, 3, or 4?  how often do you want to click on a three-month old page?  why doesn't it say:

Indictments Pending in the Robert Mueller Investigation 1 123 124 125 126 so we can click on page 1 or any of the four most-recent pages?  stupid.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted
Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Your points continue to be stupid.  You are quite literally espousing a point of view that is as damaging as I can imagine going forward.  But hey, you're a purist.

What point of view, specifically? The need to shun the progressives in favor of center-right elements within the Democratic party to achieve a big tent victory by attracting conservatives? How well has that been working?

Leftist are literally the only hope the Democratic party has of a future.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45903

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What point of view, specifically? The need to shun the progressives in favor of center-right elements within the Democratic party to achieve a big tent victory by attracting conservatives? How well has that been working?

Leftist are literally the only hope the Democratic party has of a future.

Well, you're wrong, but if I've learned anything, it's that arguing with you is more pointless than arguing with a Trumpkin.  Enjoy your fucking glass ivory tower, if there are a lot of you we are wholly fucked.

Edited by jimmyjazz
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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32854

Posted
Posted
truth is, my family mostly paid that cost.  i'm talking about if i owed some entity as being disgusted.
Your point doesn't make sense. That degree was paid for. So in my proposed system absolutely nothing changes in your scenario. You get an English degree, you don't use it, and the taxpayers end up not paying for it because you have to reimburse them. You end up in the exact same spot.
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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:
6 minutes ago, yaqdum said:
truth is, my family mostly paid that cost.  i'm talking about if i owed some entity as being disgusted.

Your point doesn't make sense. That degree was paid for. So in my proposed system absolutely nothing changes in your scenario. You get an English degree, you don't use it, and the taxpayers end up not paying for it because you have to reimburse them. You end up in the exact same spot.

i have to pay it back but nothing changes.  i'm having trouble with that.

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25944

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

By the way, this is demonstrably wrong.

In Michigan, Jill Stein got 50,700 votes.  Clinton lost to Trump by only 11,612.

In Pennsylvania, Jill Stein got 49,941 votes.  Clinton lost to Trump by only 44,322.

In Wisconsin, Jill Stein got 31,072 votes.  Clinton lost to Trump by only 22,748.

That doesn't even calculate the number of Bernie supporters who didn't vote at all (many of whom were encouraged to do so by the Russian hacks of the DNC's emails).  So yes--contrary to your conclusion--Hillary absolutely did lose those states because of Jill Stein and/or the Bernie Bros.

That is what your ideological "I'd rather have a Republican than an impure Democrat" mindset has wrought--baby jails, Muslim bans, and the demolition of the EPA.  Look around, and enjoy.

As Begala puts it, in PA, MI, and WI the difference wouldn't have filled The Big House, Beaver Stadium, or Camp Randall. 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26444

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And as to your closing question -- you assume a whole lot.  I am friends with/have the ear of quite a few people in and connected with the GOP.  Hell, I regularly visit with a top GOP strategist (this guy talks to Roger Stone on a regular basis).  And I have laid it on the line with him rather cleanly -- he needs to work on protecting his country instead of his party.  He's torn (he knows the party is a fucking wreck, but it's also his livelihood....I'm still working on him*.  He's just one example.  In the end, the GOP has sold their soul to their deranged base, and will follow them in order to hold onto power.  So, there's only one way to address that behavior (I'll get to that below).

 

These.  The purity test this last election caused a schism on the left**. Many of the hard-left wing (Bernie bros etc.), pissed about Hillary, did one of the following things: 1) stayed home, 2) voted for Stein or Johnson, or 3) even voted for Trump.  The election was decided by a few thousand votes in a few states.  That's a difference-maker.  You can pretend it wasn't, but that just makes you look even more foolish.

* Are you talking about a guy whose last name starts with the same letter as his first name?


** I'm going to have to disagree with you there, see my previous response to GOLL. The flips were in line with the usual trend and I've posted many times, Democrats almost always support the GOP nominee at a higher rate than vice versa. It's hard to try to find a reason that an on-trend regular occurrence shouldn't be expected, regardless of how decisive the size is. It always happens and it's silly to think you can plan around it not happening.  Hillary Clinton lost because she is a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign, and failed to generate enthusiasm for her candidacy sufficient to win in key states. Of course other things happened, but the number of Bernie voters who went flipped to Trump or Stein was in line with expectations. Replace Hillary Clinton with Generic Democrat and Trump loses bigly because Generic Democrat gets out the vote in a way she didn't.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32854

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Posted
i have to pay it back but nothing changes.  i'm having trouble with that.

Are you being serious right now? You think paying for it is somehow worse if you pay for it later rather than sooner?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick (it just comes naturally) but it's starting to seem like you think it's a problem if it's more likely you're going to have to pay for it instead of your mom and dad.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

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Posted (edited)

You idiots are staring at Hillary's 2016 gameplan and thinking, "OK, more of that."

Chuck Schumer literally said, "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, andyou can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

Get a progressive in the Rust Belt and tell those people a story about what we want America's future to be. Don't say shit about Donald Trump. Don't talk about needing to save the fucking union. Don't take about the need to do the right thing for decorum. Don't talk about being a big tent to embrace all views.

You go into the Rust Belt and say:
- Your kids deserve free college and we will give it to them
- You all deserve free healthcare and we will give it to you
- You all deserve a living wage and we will pass that
- You all deserve good jobs and we will provide them
- Wall Street needs strict oversight and we will enforce it
- Consumers need protection from credit monsters and we will provide it
- Graduates need relief from predatory lending and we will provide it

And you say it again and again and again and again. And if you talk about Trump at all you mention him in passing them go right back to the story of America's bright future, which has NOTHING to do with Donald Trump. And if some conservative comes in and says, "fuck all that, what about THE REPUBLIC!?!?!" you smile politely, ignore them, and go back to the story of America's bright future.

If the Briskets and Huckleberrys of the world are in, great. If not, who fucking cares? We don't need them.

Edited by bad_teammate
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Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand

Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13583

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You idiots are staring at Hillary's 2016 gameplan and thinking, "OK, more of that."

Chuck Schumer literally said, "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, andyou can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

Get a progressive in the Rust Belt and tell those people a story about what we want America's future to be. Don't say shit about Donald Trump. Don't talk about needing to save the fucking union. Don't take about the need to do the right thing for decorum. Don't talk about being a big tent to embrace all views.

You go into the Rust Belt and say:
- Your kids deserve free college and we will give it to them
- You all deserve free healthcare and we will give it to you
- You all deserve a living wage and we will pass that
- You all deserve good jobs and we will provide them
- Wall Street needs strict oversight and we will enforce it
- Consumers need protection from credit monsters and we will provide it
- Graduates need relief from predatory lending and we will provide it

And you say it again and again and again and again. And if you talk about Trump at all you mention him in passing them go right back to the story of America's bright future, which has NOTHING to do with Donald Trump. And if some conservative comes in and says, "fuck all that, what about THE REPUBLIC!?!?!" you smile politely, ignore them, and go back to the story of America's bright future.

If the Briskets and Huckleberrys of the world are in, great. If not, who fucking cares? We don't need them.

I'm with you until the last two sentences simply because I have sworn off predicting how elections will go or how people vote. 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26444

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You idiots are staring at Hillary's 2016 gameplan and thinking, "OK, more of that."

Chuck Schumer literally said, "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, andyou can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

Get a progressive in the Rust Belt and tell those people a story about what we want America's future to be. Don't say shit about Donald Trump. Don't talk about needing to save the fucking union. Don't take about the need to do the right thing for decorum. Don't talk about being a big tent to embrace all views.

You go into the Rust Belt and say:
- Your kids deserve free college and we will give it to them
- You all deserve free healthcare and we will give it to you
- You all deserve a living wage and we will pass that
- You all deserve good jobs and we will provide them
- Wall Street needs strict oversight and we will enforce it
- Consumers need protection from credit monsters and we will provide it
- Graduates need relief from predatory lending and we will provide it

And you say it again and again and again and again. And if you talk about Trump at all you mention him in passing them go right back to the story of America's bright future, which has NOTHING to do with Donald Trump. And if some conservative comes in and says, "fuck all that, what about THE REPUBLIC!?!?!" you smile politely, ignore them, and go back to the story of America's bright future.

If the Briskets and Huckleberrys of the world are in, great. If not, who fucking cares? We don't need them.

See my previous post about the difference between moderation and coalition building, and maybe tap the brakes. Trump built a coalition of interests running a Democrat playbook. Hillary Clinton didn't build anything and had no message or coherent value proposition for her voters to go with a bad GoTV strategy. It's the same reason she lost to Obama. The difference is that Obama was a good president, and Trump is the worst head of state we've ever had. 
That being said, simply pushing a more ideological agenda won't be better. The question is not what Democrats stand for. The question is who.

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28777

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

And yet, had Hillary campaigned in those states rather than taking them for granted while fucking around in places like Texas, she would have won, Bernie/Stein voters or not.

Yes, it was that reason, that Hillary didn't campaign in those States, and that reason alone, which is why Hillary lost. A lifetime of negative propaganda from the right played no role. Targeted misinformation by Russian intelligence on social media played no role. Hacked emails by Russian intelligence of the DNC and John Podesta's emails and released by WikiLeaks played no role. James Comey announcing a new investigation into emails relating to Hillary, while keeping silent about the investigation into the Trump campaign's apparent collusion/conspiracy/coordination with Russian intelligence, played no role. No, it was strictly because Hillary didn't campaign in those States. 

Can we please stop trying to blame one single factor for being the reason why the election turned out the way it did? We have no way of knowing to what degree any of those factors contributed to the outcome of the election. We can be confident that they all played a part. There's no way you can say with certainty that if Hillary had just campaigned in those States then Comey's announcement less than two weeks before the election would've had no impact.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26444

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Uhhh lol

 

That's my pojnt, man - she was substituting a grab bag of platitudes for an authentic alignment of interests around WHO Democrats work for. 

4 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Yeah, um, I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there.

 

 

What would you say you do here?

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25944

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Tuco said:

In some cases, they should.  Without recruiting Bob Krist to run for governor in Nebraska, we'd have no conceivable shot of taking that position.  Krist was a moderate Republican legislator who was recruited to run against Pete Ricketts, who is running the Kansas Republican playbook.  Free college?  Ricketts is pushing to pull out a chunk of state funding for Nebraska which is going to cut programs and raise tuition.  I don't have the energy to worry about free college.  I'm too busy trying to hold the ground against a storm of conservative stupidity. 

The other Democratic candidate in the primary was Vanessa Ward, who was a progressive, but she also had to register to run as a Democrat, having never engaged in the party previously.  She hadn't even voted in the last ten years. 

The Dems have been horrible at building a base of potential candidates in red states. They are going to need to pull them from wherever they can.

He couldn't be more wrong.  

Feinstein couldn't win in Alabama.  Doug Jones couldn't win in CA.  But, they each fit their own state well. 

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

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Posted
19 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Are you being serious right now? You think paying for it is somehow worse if you pay for it later rather than sooner?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick (it just comes naturally) but it's starting to seem like you think it's a problem if it's more likely you're going to have to pay for it instead of your mom and dad.

this is really worth this much time, but i'll say the idea needs to be adjusted, in my humble, such that if you use a degree in a different but equally valuable way, it shouldn't matter.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26444

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Posted
3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yes, it was that reason, that Hillary didn't campaign in those States, and that reason alone, which is why Hillary lost. A lifetime of negative propaganda from the right played no role. Targeted misinformation by Russian intelligence on social media played no role. Hacked emails by Russian intelligence of the DNC and John Podesta's emails and released by WikiLeaks played no role. James Comey announcing a new investigation into emails relating to Hillary, while keeping silent about the investigation into the Trump campaign's apparent collusion/conspiracy/coordination with Russian intelligence, played no role. No, it was strictly because Hillary didn't campaign in those States. 

Can we please stop trying to blame one single factor for being the reason why the election turned out the way it did? We have no way of knowing to what degree any of those factors contributed to the outcome of the election. We can be confident that they all played a part. There's no way you can say with certainty that if Hillary had just campaigned in those States then Comey's announcement less than two weeks before the election would've had no impact.

Her job was to win.
To earn that job, she spent two decades organizing and engineering a clear shot to the nomination of her party. To get that job, she worked (as all aspirants do) to suppress the viability of her rivals. She won the 2016 nominating contest and got the job she wanted with all of us knowing, and her knowing better than anyone what she was up against.  Thus she also owns the blame.
To paraphrase Dennis Green, Donald Trump was who we thought he was, and Hillary Clinton let him off the hook.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted
Just now, yaqdum said:

my bet is history ends up saying thankfully hillary lost that election for more than one reason.

Oh, I see Trump as a necessary evil.  We are going to get a shitload of bad blood out of our system over the next 10-20 years because of his presidency.

It will be painful and suck but America will come out stronger as a people because of it. 

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yaqdum

yaqdum 182

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Oh, I see Trump as a necessary evil.  We are going to get a shitload of bad blood out of our system over the next 10-20 years because of his presidency.

It will be painful and suck but America will come out stronger as a people because of it. 

bingo bingo bingo.  we have a whiner . . . err . . . winner.

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