Donald Trump 2018

[Huckleberry 32,851]

Just now, Fozzz said:

You can either provide free higher education, restrict higher education to the wealthy and upper-middle class, or allow access through the inflation of an enormous student debt bubble (our chosen solution) that will eventually wreck the economy if left unaddressed.

Or you could do some of the other things we've mentioned in the thread that you haven't read yet.

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

Just now, Huckleberry said:

Exactly. It's not like the Democratic Party has to actually change their platform toward the middle to get this chunk of voters in the 2018 and 2020 elections. Hammer home that you're not monsters who are separating families, you're not in Putin's pocket, and that you will fight (or oust in 2020) Trump every step of the way.

 It doesn't require moving toward a centrist platform to be the Not Trump party.

Literally the only way to lose us is to turn into a left wing Freedom Caucus who refuses to compromise on anything.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

Look, libs need to persuade people with their ideas, not structure the system to eliminate competition to those ideas.  I welcome Republican refugees and view this as an opportunity to convince some of them to move left over time.  If we don't get enough of them to win long term, we need to work on our ideas or our arguments. 

[Captainant 27,653]

56 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Do you even Jade Helm, bro?

I do love that Jade Helm was really just russian info warfare

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/05/03/hysteria-over-jade-helm-exercise-texas-was-fueled-russians-former-cia-/

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I live in Virginia, and I think Hillary loses here against at least half the Republican field, as well as Florida and Ohio.   That loses her the election even if I give you the union factory workers, who vote for plenty of Republicans in state elections and are hardly in the bag for Hillary Clinton. 

They aren't in the bag for Hillary, but they are in the bag for national Dems.  The GOP, other than Trump, are openly hostile to unions.

Also, don't kid yourself in Virginia.  None of the other GOP candidates were going to outperform Trump there.  The rest of them were the R equivalents of Hillary.  They didn't generate enthusiasm in the base.  Maybe Cruz or Kasich get a NOVA lawyer to flip, but for every NOVA lawyer that flips, 2 or 3 Cletuses in Warrenton don't vote because they only really cared about Trump's anti-immigration stance.

[Ghost of LL 15,531]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

Look, libs need to persuade people with their ideas, not structure the system to eliminate competition to those ideas.  I welcome Republican refugees and view this as an opportunity to convince some of them to move left over time.  If we don't get enough of them to win long term, we need to work on our ideas or our arguments. 

That's really very insightful.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

Look, libs need to persuade people with their ideas, not structure the system to eliminate competition to those ideas.  I welcome Republican refugees and view this as an opportunity to convince some of them to move left over time.  If we don't get enough of them to win long term, we need to work on our ideas or our arguments. 

Bingo.

And the amazing thing, ignored by b-t, is that this has already happened with respect to numerous issues. GOLL and I are just two examples of that - there are millions of others. But the b-T’s of the world have no use for us because we don’t pass his purity test. A purity test that looks EXACTLY like the deranged test that the GOP has imposed and is killing that party.

[jimmyjazz 45,898]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Voting in a Democratic blue wave in 2018 literally cannot lead to Trump's removal.

The only way Trump can be removed is if Republicans vote to impeach and remove.

I don't know why this needs to be re-explained so many times.

Because your point is stupid.

[Fozzz 152]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Or you could do some of the other things we've mentioned in the thread that you haven't read yet.

The requirement that graduates "retain employment associated with the degree for a minimum number of years after graduation" (or what? they pay back the cost of obtaining their degree?) will lead to similar issues that obtain in the current system.  

[Tuco 5,076]

10 minutes ago, Js1 said:

You should vote for whomever you want.  R or D.

But the Democrats shouldn't be recruiting candidates and building platforms that appeal to you, the former Republican.  That's what is pissing off the base and loyal Democrats - the centrist Democrats that can "appeal to the center crossover voters" and run a milquetoast campaign, get to Congress, and don't do much to advance progressive causes.

In some cases, they should.  Without recruiting Bob Krist to run for governor in Nebraska, we'd have no conceivable shot of taking that position.  Krist was a moderate Republican legislator who was recruited to run against Pete Ricketts, who is running the Kansas Republican playbook.  Free college?  Ricketts is pushing to pull out a chunk of state funding for Nebraska which is going to cut programs and raise tuition.  I don't have the energy to worry about free college.  I'm too busy trying to hold the ground against a storm of conservative stupidity. 

The other Democratic candidate in the primary was Vanessa Ward, who was a progressive, but she also had to register to run as a Democrat, having never engaged in the party previously.  She hadn't even voted in the last ten years. 

The Dems have been horrible at building a base of potential candidates in red states. They are going to need to pull them from wherever they can.

[4th&Five 41,525]

Can someone let me know when y’all are done rehashing the election for the 100th time? K. Thx. 

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

8 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

They aren't in the bag for Hillary, but they are in the bag for national Dems.  The GOP, other than Trump, are openly hostile to unions.

Also, don't kid yourself in Virginia.  None of the other GOP candidates were going to outperform Trump there.  The rest of them were the R equivalents of Hillary.  They didn't generate enthusiasm in the base.  Maybe Cruz or Kasich get a NOVA lawyer to flip, but for every NOVA lawyer that flips, 2 or 3 Cletuses in Warrenton don't vote because they only really cared about Trump's anti-immigration stance.

Cletus came out as much or more out of hatred for Hillary than love of Trump, and many in NoVa had to hold their noses for Hillary.   As it was, Hillary pretty much tied Trump + Johnson + McMuffin, and another R gets most of those third party votes.   Republicans can still win this state.

Also, I don't get the union stuff, because Scott Walker.  Not even arguing here — I just don't get it.  If he can win and stay in office, why can't another R win in the union states? 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Mojo Hand

[Fozzz 152]

For some perspective, Bernie's free college plan is estimated to cost around $47 billion a year. 

http://college.usatoday.com/2017/04/17/heres-how-much-bernie-sanders-free-college-for-all-plan-would-cost/

Meanwhile, the tax cut passed this year is projected to cost around $1.5 trillion in future revenue losses.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

It's amazing someone needs to campaign at all when running against Donald Trump.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

2 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

Can someone let me know when y’all are done rehashing the election for the 100th time? K. Thx. 

We were done with that six months ago.  We're doing it for at least the 200th time now. 

[GSU&UT 1,798]

11 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Look, libs need to persuade people with their ideas, not structure the system to eliminate competition to those ideas.  I welcome Republican refugees and view this as an opportunity to convince some of them to move left over time.  If we don't get enough of them to win long term, we need to work on our ideas or our arguments. 

I'm not advocating for structuring the system to eliminate people looking to join, but you have to recognize that when Democratic congressmen and women reach over across the aisle (mostly centrists) thinking their Republican counterparts will negotiate in good faith (when, of course, they won't) happens over and over again that lots of people will inevitably start getting angry with the party.

Edited July 18, 2018 by GSU&UT

[Huckleberry 32,851]

4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

The requirement that graduates "retain employment associated with the degree for a minimum number of years after graduation" (or what? they pay back the cost of obtaining their degree?) will lead to similar issues that obtain in the current system.  

Yes, or else they owe the cost (or a prorated portion of the cost) of the degree.

Why do you think that just flat out paying for everyone's university education is going to fix the current problem that you have correctly identified (the higher education bubble)? If we pay for everyone's university education the bubble is only going to get worse.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

4 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Cletus came out as much or more out of hatred for Hillary than love of Trump, and many in NoVa had to hold their noses for Hillary.   As it was, Hillary pretty much tied Trump + Johnson + McMuffin, and another R gets most of those third party votes.   Republicans can still win this state.

I'm not saying Republicans can't win that state.  I'm saying that among the 2016 Republican candidates, Trump had the best chance of winning that state.  W could have won it easily, but W wasn't running, nor was anyone else with his platform and demeanor.

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It's amazing someone needs to campaign at all when running against Donald Trump.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, Huckleberry said:

Yes, or else they owe the cost (or a prorated portion of the cost) of the degree.

Why do you think that just flat out paying for everyone's university education is going to fix the current problem that you have correctly identified (the higher education bubble)? If we pay for everyone's university education the bubble is only going to get worse.

For one, the costs associated with free higher education would be a lot more transparent and controllable than student debt which is extremely opaque and hard to predict.  For-profit colleges also wouldn't be able to feast on that money like they can with student loans.  Easily available student loans create all kinds of incentives for bad actors to siphon that money without providing real instruction. 

Here's an interview where the president of the NY Federal Reserve (probably not a socialist, imo) states that Bernie's plan is a "reasonable conversation" for tackling these issues.

https://www.ft.com/content/a272ee4c-1b83-11e7-bcac-6d03d067f81f

[Huckleberry 32,851]

I agree it's a reasonable conversation. It's more than reasonable, it absolutely needs to happen.

I disagree that limiting it to public colleges and universities will prevent the bubble from growing larger and larger. For crying out loud right now Texas A&M has a plan to grow to 80,000 students just so they can have more athletic donors in 20 years. What do you think is going to happen to universities around the nation when they find out that they are guaranteed payment for anyone they admit?

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

1 minute ago, GSU&UT said:

I'm not advocating for structuring the system to eliminate people looking to join, but you have to recognize that so many Democratic congressmen and women reach over across the aisle (mostly centrists) thinking their Republican counterparts will negotiate in good faith when, of course, they won't. This can only happen so many times before lots of people start getting angry with the party.

I don't necessarily disagree.  What I'm talking about is actually the opposite:  standing up for lib policies and trying to win people over to supporting those policies.   When you have a chance for health care reform, for example, fight for a liberal vision.   When you have to compromise because of split government, fine, but make your own policies clear so the voters know where you stand.   Don't take ownership of the GOP health care plan from 1992 and GOP amendments and then take the blame for a shitty system that you don't even like and you can't defend in subsequent elections.  

The biggest problem Dems have is that they've been gutless.  They're too scared to fight for their own ideas.  That some libs think we need to shut out R refugees only betrays a lack of faith in our ability to persuade them to support our policies.   And if we don't believe in our own policies, why should anyone else? 

The result is that voters don't know what Dems really stand for and why the parties are even different.   Trump is so extreme that he's making some differences very clear, but we need to take this opportunity to stand for what we believe and let the chips fall where they may. 

The people leaving the R party over Trump are good, reasonable people.  That's why they are leaving the R party; it's tough to do that, and takes a lot of character, even though the need is so clear right now.    If we can't convince them to support D policies, so be it. 

[bolverk 29,660]

29 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Look, libs need to persuade people with their ideas, not structure the system to eliminate competition to those ideas.  I welcome Republican refugees and view this as an opportunity to convince some of them to move left over time.  If we don't get enough of them to win long term, we need to work on our ideas or our arguments. 

Exactly! Both GoLL and Brisket have stated they've already moved to the left. Both of them admit they now reject supply-side economics, Brisket is in favor of freakin' universal healthcare.

If these right-of-center moderates have accepted those views, then the Democratic Party (*petooi* / *spit*) has a unique opportunity to shift the middle leftward.

For left-wingers such as myself, I'd call that a big win.

[Js1 85,310]

Quote

The biggest problem Dems have is that they've been gutless.  They're too scared to fight for their own ideas. 

This kind of goes back to a lot of the issues.  The people being pushed by the party to verbalize those ideas and make them into legislation are gutless corporatist pussies who don't want to upset the middle and the donor class.

[GSU&UT 1,798]

5 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I don't necessarily disagree.  What I'm talking about is actually the opposite:  standing up for lib policies and trying to win people over to supporting those policies.   When you have a chance for health care reform, for example, fight for a liberal vision.   When you have to compromise because of split government, fine, but make your own policies clear so the voters know where you stand.   Don't take ownership of the GOP health care plan from 1992 and GOP amendments and then take the blame for a shitty system that you don't even like and you can't defend in subsequent elections.  

The biggest problem Dems have is that they've been gutless.  They're too scared to fight for their own ideas.  That some libs think we need to shut out R refugees only betrays a lack of faith in our ability to persuade them to support our policies.   And if we don't believe in our own policies, why should anyone else? 

The result is that voters don't know what Dems really stand for and why the parties are even different.   Trump is so extreme that he's making some differences very clear, but we need to take this opportunity to stand for what we believe and let the chips fall where they may. 

The people leaving the R party over Trump are good, reasonable people.  That's why they are leaving the R party; it's tough to do that, and takes a lot of character, even though the need is so clear right now.    If we can't convince them to support D policies, so be it. 

This is a good post. I don't think it's worth the time trying to convince anyone who still supports Trump and many others who can't see what good the Democratic party can bring, but of course we should try to talk to anyone who is considering voting D for the first time. I also couldn't agree more about the healthcare issue, I've been a huge proponent of that being the main platform to run on (instead of simply being anti-Trump) because it should be an issue that damn near everyone can relate to. I'd be a lot more aggressive than some and point to the current administration and Republicans continually trying to undermine the ACA when it's clear that the majority of Americans now support ACA.

Edited July 18, 2018 by GSU&UT

[DixonHur 11,296]

10 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I agree it's a reasonable conversation. It's more than reasonable, it absolutely needs to happen.

I disagree that limiting it to public colleges and universities will prevent the bubble from growing larger and larger. For crying out loud right now Texas A&M has a plan to grow to 80,000 students just so they can have more athletic donors in 20 years. What do you think is going to happen to universities around the nation when they find out that they are guaranteed payment for anyone they admit?

What's the payment default rate for public colleges and universities now?  I don't know the statistics, but I'd imagine it's pretty low since they don't assume the student loan risk.  

As for bringing in more students for donations down the road, that works to a point, but there's a limit before you start devaluating the degree, thus limiting the giving potential of graduates...law of diminishing returns.

[Bozo_Casanova 26,444]

48 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Look, libs need to persuade people with their ideas, not structure the system to eliminate competition to those ideas.  I welcome Republican refugees and view this as an opportunity to convince some of them to move left over time.  If we don't get enough of them to win long term, we need to work on our ideas or our arguments. 

I agree with this. I've always advocated for a big tent party.
People throw around the term "moderate" these days, but it's not an accurate discripter of what Democrats should be. At our best we are a coalition of passionate interests, a rabble. That rabble is fractious and comprised of liberals, progressives and those others who choose to join our coalition because they want something else. We're the something else party.
If Bob Corker or Jeff Flake wanted to caucus with us we should take them, without the expectation that anybody on either side would moderate a bit. Party isn't an identity or a philosophical system. It's a vehicle for action exclusively. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Bozo_Casanova

[David Dennison 18,854]

He's really going ahead with fucking up Air Force One. I imagine it will look like a NASCAR race.

[4th&Five 41,525]

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,868]

[TornACL 7,698]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

He's really going ahead with fucking up Air Force One. I imagine it will look like a NASCAR race.

This is exactly what he should be working on. I would like him to cancel all remaining diplomatic visits and meetings for the next 18 months and focus solely on looking at color templates for the big new airplane.

[Chooky 13,307]

 

[Ghost of LL 15,531]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

He's really going ahead with fucking up Air Force One. I imagine it will look like a NASCAR race.

Fortunately, it's not going to be painted until 2024.  So President Hickenlooper will have plenty of time to rescind that idiotic order.

[David Dennison 18,854]

Undoing the tastelessness of Donald Trump is going to cost American taxpayers a lot of money.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,868]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Undoing the tastelessness of Donald Trump is going to cost American taxpayers a lot of money.

Again, rich white trash

[David Dennison 18,854]

Just now, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Again, rich white trash

I can't imagine what he's done to the residence. 

[retread 2,951]

I'm not sure you can unring that bell when the right gets a taste of giving the libtards some of their own medicine. Trump 2.0 may be even worse.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

25 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I agree it's a reasonable conversation. It's more than reasonable, it absolutely needs to happen.

I disagree that limiting it to public colleges and universities will prevent the bubble from growing larger and larger. For crying out loud right now Texas A&M has a plan to grow to 80,000 students just so they can have more athletic donors in 20 years. What do you think is going to happen to universities around the nation when they find out that they are guaranteed payment for anyone they admit?

You can't base anything off what aggy does.  Its not even about athletic donors.  Its about having more alumni living in Texas than UT has so that they can pretend they are "The University of Texas".  They will happily water down the quality of their education to do that.

In other places where tuition costs have been subsidized or lowered, like NY, highly ranked public universities haven't suddenly thrown out all standards and opened their doors to all takers.  If anything, its harder to get into SUNY Binghamton and Stony Brook now.  Lower ranked schools grow and community colleges boom.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Undoing the tastelessness of Donald Trump is going to cost American taxpayers a lot of money.

I bet we could just run that SOB through a local Maaco on the cheap.

[David Dennison 18,854]

Having Donald Trump as president gives me a pretty good idea of how foreigners view America and Americans. I get it now. They are right to be amused. We're ridiculous.

[Mdhorn 5,948]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

What makes you think someone like that will succeed in early vocational school?  There are plenty of people who don't "want" to do anything until they are thrown in the water of having to work and make ends meet.  They then either sink or swim.  Vocational schools are mostly filled with people like this who realized the hard way that they need to buckle down and better themselves.  Its also better to have these type of people in vocational schools rather than lazy 14 year olds who don't want to do anything as long as mama keeps a roof over their head.

My cousin was a complete waste in high school.  You couldn't have made him open a book or rebuild an engine.  Dropped out, got kicked out, worked and got fired from some shit jobs for a while.  Then finally cleaned up, got his GED, went to vocational school to be an auto mechanic, and now is doing okay.  If you had put him in auto mechanic school at 14, he would have failed right out of it too, however.

True but you can't have them making sex videos in the bathroom or cussing in class. Really, they brought in a behavioral specialist who said to just ignore it so that you don't bring attention to a student swearing out loud in class.  Also, the low is a 50--no zero's.  If they go to sleep and do nothing, they get a 50.  That's daycare and only hinders those actually taking classes.  None of this belongs in the Trump 2018 thread though.   

[Francisco 2.0 32,389]

2 hours ago, Bevo VIII said:

I heard MS13 is making college more expensive.

Speaking of MS13:

https://www.axios.com/trump-voters-ms-13-fears-targeting-families-poll-d08a8ba8-823e-4158-8e24-fa2b7cbc9616.html

 

Quote

A majority of Trump voters said that they were at least somewhat worried about MS-13 targeting them or their families and 85% believe that the violent gang is a serious threat to the United States, according to a new HuffPost/YouGov survey.

Why it matters: Trump has repeatedly used the gang to validate his administration's "zero-tolerance" policy at the southern border and the need for a wall. While the gang's actions are indeed vicious, its members prey almost exclusively on immigrant communities in small, specific areas of the U.S.

 

[Foosters 17,850]

Shit, I'm a criminal defense attorney in East Los Angeles, and I rarely come across MS-13.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

5 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Speaking of MS13:

https://www.axios.com/trump-voters-ms-13-fears-targeting-families-poll-d08a8ba8-823e-4158-8e24-fa2b7cbc9616.html

 

 

That's because we live in a country where this is no longer a parody, but reality:

[Longhorn94 2,448]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

Shit, I'm a criminal defense attorney in East Los Angeles, and I rarely come across MS-13.

You sir are FAKE NEWS! Everyone knows that MS-13 is the biggest threat to the American way of life! You must be one of those ANGRY Democrats who support MS-13's efforts to bring more crime, more rape, more abortions, more fake news, more voter fraud, more brown people coming in through open borders destroying our white way of life and generally but also specifically you and MS-13 are against every part of the American (and Russian) way of life!!!!!

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

I’m going into the robot insurance business 

[TornACL 7,698]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m going into the robot insurance business 

You know, I heard the MS-13 are making robots. Like Robocop, except Mexican gangsters.

[Aqua Buddha 14,590]

Olds and Trumpkins are scared easily.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m going into the robot insurance business 

You laugh.  I bet that we could come up with some scam to protect the olds against "MS-13 comin' to git ya" and make a fortune.

Shit, we oughta just sell MS-13 insurance.  If anyone in your household is attacked by an MS-13 member, we cover all your expenses.*

 

* This offer not available if you're Central American, and thus a member of the only group of people who actually has something to fear from MS-13.

[DixonHur 11,296]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

* This offer not available if you're Central American, and thus a member of the only group of people who actually has something to fear from MS-13.

Wait, MS-13 members have to be Central American?  I was under the impression that all people with brown skin were MS-13 members.