The Lance 30 for 30

[DDD Dad 14,144]

7 hours ago, blacklab said:

Dr Beeper is taking a day off.

WOULD THE REST OF YOU STUPID FUCKS STOP ARGUING WITH HIM

Any other references to who is an athlete or who isn't will result in a day off.

Well I'm certainly not going to argue whether or not you're athletic.  I've seen you hit your 5 wood.

[closetohumping 17,354]

Wait Michael Phelps isn't a great athlete?

[closetohumping 17,354]

On 5/26/2020 at 4:04 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

I already acknowledged Jesse Owens and would put Carl Lewis ahead of Owens. Pitchers are some of the best athletes around. Generally former skill position players in football (Kershaw excepted) or basketball, and generally great golfers. Absolutely I’m taking 1976 Nolan Ryan over Jenner. 

What people forget about Jenner is that he was a collegiate running back. Small school, but he was always extremely athletic. To be a world class decathlete you have to be. But is he a better athlete than the ones I listed?  Fuck no, he’s not. 

[Nolacycling 893]

Lance is/was a prick. Read the early book and see how he dumped on the girlfriend that stayed by his side through the cancer. Read about wife #1 and the kids and his seeming indifference to anything but his own happiness. Hello S. Crow. Bye S. Crow.

I've been a hs swimming coach for a long time and because of/despite my presence have seen some very successful kids. By far and away ,my favorites were not the elite, but the kids that were not naturally athletically gifted in terms of swimming(that'sfor you beeper). The elite kids have that extra "me, myself" gene that makes them more selfish and self-centered and adds to their success. 

Those 2nd tier kids graduated from MIT, Stanford and are the doctors, architects and God-forbid lawyers that I ask for help today.

[CooterBrown 17,852]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue whether or not you're athletic.  I've seen you hit your 5 wood.

I don’t think his wife thinks that 5 wood is that impressive.

[capnamerca 568]

13 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Well I'm certainly not going to argue whether or not you're athletic.  I've seen you hit your 5 wood.

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by capnamerca

[Underdog 28,392]

22 hours ago, capnamerca said:

Dr.Beeper is clearly Derka.

Not enough words. 

[blacklab 11,841]

20 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Well I'm certainly not going to argue whether or not you're athletic.  I've seen you hit your 5 wood.

And I'm not going to argue whether or not you're athletic, I've seen you putt.

[SizzleChest 8,275]

[C-Man 26,936]

Lance is/was a prick. Read the early book and see how he dumped on the girlfriend that stayed by his side through the cancer. Read about wife #1 and the kids and his seeming indifference to anything but his own happiness. Hello S. Crow. Bye S. Crow.
I've been a hs swimming coach for a long time and because of/despite my presence have seen some very successful kids. By far and away ,my favorites were not the elite, but the kids that were not naturally athletically gifted in terms of swimming(that'sfor you beeper). The elite kids have that extra "me, myself" gene that makes them more selfish and self-centered and adds to their success. 
Those 2nd tier kids graduated from MIT, Stanford and are the doctors, architects and God-forbid lawyers that I ask for help today.

I know the GF you speak of very well and she’s now married to one of my best buddies.

[Hook1997 5,263]

Did no one watch tonight?  One of the greatest quotes ever.  “It could be worse, I could be Floyd Landis” interviewer..  “what living in Leadville?”  Lance.. “waking up a piece of shit every day”  interviewer.. “is that what you think”. Lance “yea, yea, that’s what I know, I don’t think it I know it” lol.  I cracked up and had to watch it a couple times.  Wow. 

[tx ind 6,987]

5 hours ago, Hook1997 said:

Did no one watch tonight?  One of the greatest quotes ever.  “It could be worse, I could be Floyd Landis” interviewer..  “what living in Leadville?”  Lance.. “waking up a piece of shit every day”  interviewer.. “is that what you think”. Lance “yea, yea, that’s what I know, I don’t think it I know it” lol.  I cracked up and had to watch it a couple times.  Wow. 

That was crazy, gotta let go of that hate. I wonder if deep down he knew Floyd had the potential to be a better rider than he was if everything was equal.

Edited June 1, 2020 by tx ind

[Wally Pryor 5,236]

I just feel better now knowing some guy named John Koroth is nicknamed "College".

Yay.

[MAUFRAIS 6,571]

Yeah I wondered about that every time they put it up.

I did notice in the end credits that one of the other guys identified as a friend of lance was credited as an executive producer, so I thought that maybe they are all buddies and he was fucking with him by having the editor put that nickname in there.

[CooterBrown 17,852]

I just feel better now knowing some guy named John Koroth is nicknamed "College".

Yay.

That guy was a frequent guest on the JB and Sandy morning show and they’d all fellate Lance for an hour.

[MAUFRAIS 6,571]

Was he like “just call me college”?

[phdhorn 6,224]

Saw the entire thing (both parts).  Random thoughts:

- Armstrong is fucking crazy.  I've decided that that's what it is.  Amorally narcissistic, that's the only way he could do what he did.
- The series was generally (IMHO) shaving the rough edges off of him, trying to put him in "context," i.e. a bit sympathetic.
- It did a generally lousy job of showing exactly how and why he absolutely ruined so many lives, and caused many people to have to get mental help.  He was pure evil, the worst of the worst demons incarnate.  Granted in 2 parts you couldn't totally cover such a piece of shit's destructive legacy, but it really was kind of vague.
- Should have done much more to highlight the courage of the Andreus, especially Betsy.  At the peak of his power, she wouldn't back down, as he repeatedly threatened to "destroy" her.  That was really the first crack in the entire thing, and she stood her ground under enormous pressure all the way back in 2006 when no one else had the courage to do so.  She was probably the key player in his eventual deserved downfall (as well as Times reporter David Walsh, who had to endure a three-minute public assripping by Armstrong in a "press conference" when the Feds dropped the charges and he alone continued to take up the cause).  If it weren't for those two people specifically (Walsh and Betsy), Armstrong would have gotten away with it  - their courage led to other cyclists finally dumping en masse the truth concerning Armstrong.  I would have liked to see their roles highlighted more.

All in all, I think this was good but not as good as the other two main docs I've seen, The Armstrong Lie (2013) and especially Stop at Nothing: The Lance Armstrong Story (2014).  Highly recommend those two, especially the latter, to get a better idea of how he was such an evil prick to others.

[Wally Pryor 5,236]

JB and Sandy?     

Says it all. 

[bullzak 407]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

Should have done much more to highlight the courage of the Andreus, especially Betsy.  At the peak of his power, she wouldn't back down, as he repeatedly threatened to "destroy" her.  That was really the first crack in the entire thing, and she stood her ground under enormous pressure all the way back in 2006 when no one else had the courage to do so. 

To me that is the more interesting story. Would rather see that documentary myself. 

It seems that at least LA is acknowledging that he was a total shithead. Not sure how much it really matters but it is something. 

Haven't really kept up but does anyone think there was any rider in the peloton during that time that was clean? Not sure that was even possible. 

[phdhorn 6,224]

1 hour ago, bullzak said:

It seems that at least LA is acknowledging that he was a total shithead. Not sure how much it really matters but it is something. 

Haven't really kept up but does anyone think there was any rider in the peloton during that time that was clean? Not sure that was even possible. 

To an extent I agree, but man you just watch the guy and you can see his (still) anger at being busted and his clear still-wanting-revenge-for-being-busted tone and attitude. He made it clear he was an asshole but his biggest "fault" was that he got caught.  He even said he "fessed up" not out of true remorse, but to hopefully mediate the blowback and set him up for some type of comeback or at least "understanding".  He was still a scary mother in this thing, even if he at times had what I call "instantaneous remorse" - that is, the impact of his shittiness hitting him in momentary thoughts - but I still don't see him as all that remorseful, I don't think he's capable of it - he just doesn't have that gene.  It helped him to the top but probably will keep him at the bottom.

As to the peloton etc.  my guess is that not everyone doped, only the guys that were deemed "competitive" by the various teams/coaches.  That's probably just as bad but I do think a lot of good people were in it.  The entire strategy of this type of cycling is whacked anyway - all this "serving the leader" shit and then actually believing it when they say "you're next" and most of the time that was claptrap.  Landis did the right thing and finally came clean, but his problem was actually believing that line of bullshit, so he's not really all that admirable to me.  His being "betrayed" is pretty much cycling's middle name.

On another topic out of here (I guess) I am, and have always been, first and foremost, a Greg LeMond fan.  And, I really, really don't think he ever took a pindrop of controversial or illegal substances. The only thing he might have done "wrong" is caved to Armstrong when Armstrong threatened to get 10 liars to say LeMond doped, and put LeMond's bike line out of business (he essentially did the latter), he himself lied and said he believed Armstrong never doped.  But again, even his vaunted person was potential roadkill for the Armstrong juggernaut, so I guess like most people he had to feed his family and look out for personal welfare.  He since of course said he was wrong to issue a "correction" he knew wasn't true.

But I think he never doped, had his own lesser physical problem (shot in the leg) from which he came back, and actually put the USA on the cycling map, not Armstrong (Armstrong just fortified it).  He would have won > 3 Tours but he was naive enough to play the "servant" and himself got double-crossed.  But I've always been a big fan of his, mostly because he did not dope (IMHO) and was truly a hard worker and gifted rider - and most of all - a nice guy.  Sometimes nice guys don't finish last - they finish first.

[SizzleChest 8,275]

Armstrong has no moral center.  He's clearly an emotionally disturbed person, fucked up from the beginning by a teenage mother with no parenting skills and a controlling asshole of a stepfather.  

But that's no excuse.

[bullzak 407]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

On another topic out of here (I guess) I am, and have always been, first and foremost, a Greg LeMond fan.  And, I really, really don't think he ever took a pindrop of controversial or illegal substances.

I like LeMond but I wonder about the PED. I dont think anyone really presses him on it. 

In the 1980s you could probably get away with anything but massive doses of testosterone. See: East Germany and USSR Olympic teams. 

Cycling has been dirty forever. I have doubts you could win the TDF anytime in the last 40 years without taking something. So really the question is whether LeMond is clean or just a paragon of virtue next to an asshole like Armstrong. 

Guess we will never really know. 

[phdhorn 6,224]

Yeah, cycling has always had "medication" even since the painkillers from the 1890's.  And for the most part, it was always encouraged and even complimented that one could find "smart" ways of helping themselves along.  It's always been a muddy field, but I think morally it became an entirely different story after WWII and the rapid developments of "this means business" drugs like amphetamines (which were given to combat soldiers to alleviate their stress and fatigue).  It's likely that most Tour winners were "on" some type of amphetamine in the '50's.  But as war technology led to rapid developments of superdrugs, especially through the 50's, it got to be out of hand.  Two major changes:  1) no longer did riders merely take stuff to alleviate pain or tiredness, they began to use stuff that actually artificially improved their performance, and 2) they were taking more and more dangerous drugs, which likely killed a few riders.  This is when the "illegal" aspect stepped in.  Riders were first given a list of "definitely prohibited" drugs and tested first about 1965.

After that year, the line between "helping" and "breaking the law" indeed is a thin one, but nevertheless a somewhat clear one.  But even through the 70's and most of the 80's, these were marginally helpful (reportedly) at best.  The big kicker came in the late 1980's when blood transfusions, anabolic steroids, masking drugs - and most importantly, haematocrit enhancers (red cell increasing) stimulants - yeah, EPO - were taking stage.  However none of these, especially EPO, seemed to be widespread until the intervention of Dr. Ferrari by the mid-1990's.  Armstrong claims he first doped about 1998 through Ferrari, prior to that didn't dope with anything patently illegal (actually I believe him here).

So it's pretty likely that whatever LeMond might have taken to help himself, the EPO craze really didn't hit until after his last Tour win, so it was 1) likely well within the realm of a still vague but legal side of this whole thing, and 2) not EPO or blood enhancers.  At the least, he was nowhere near some sort of unique position of enhancement, and at most, I believe he took nothing outside of stuff to ease pain and fatigue, not stuff to actively increase his blood composition.  He candidly admitted that he was told in '95 that he would never win again if he didn't dope, but he didn't.  In fact he retired in 1994 due to the increased speeds (likely due to doping) of other riders, and that he was in constant pain and agony as he pushed himself harder to keep up.  Since he really wanted to win five tours, it would seem very likely that he would have doped to do this as he understood the changing landscape around him.  But he chose to retire and not to dope.  To this day he thinks the hunting accident kept toxins in his body that actually increased with heavier training, and he felt he certainly could have won two more Tours between '90 and '94 minus the hunting accident.

So the fact that he was at his peak before the widespread use of EPO, and that he chose to retire instead of doping to get his two more Tour wins, leads me to believe he clearly was not interested in the "new" paradigm of blood doping, and didn't in the most severe way.  The only real evidence of anything even remotely approaching treatment anyone knows about is his anemia treatments during the 1989 Giro d'Italia, two months before his first Tour win - and that was completely legal and known.

I just think he's a great guy and if it turns out he's ever been proven to dope, I have no bedboard posters or altar pictures I'd have to burn of him.  It wouldn't affect me that much except to be disappointing.  But still to me there has never, ever been a moment like that time trial of 1989 - when it was almost impossible to believe he would overcome a 50 second deficit on the last day and win - putting the FIRST AMERICAN EVER on the winner's podium.  But I saw it and was excited for a day or two afterwards.

I hope that that excitement and thrill - done by a "good guy" and a real human being - will stand.  But you're right, guess we'll really never know.

[Wally Pryor 5,236]

Armstrong portrays himself as a victim of sorts near the end of the film when he suggests that he and two other cyclists paid far more for their sins than others even though doping was rampant in the sport. 

He essentially compares himself to 1998 Tour de France winner Marco Pantani, the Italian who was dogged by doping allegations before dying of a cocaine overdose in 2004. He also sympathizes with 1997 Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich, who confessed to doping and later was admitted to a psychiatric hospital amid personal problems.

By comparison, others such as Ivan Basso, an Italian rider, and George Hincapie, Armstrong’s American teammate, did not suffer such harsh public downfalls after serving doping suspensions.

In Italy, Armstrong said Basso is “no different than any of us, yet they disgraced Marco Pantani. They destroy him in the press. They kick him out of the sport, and he’s dead. He’s fucking dead.”

Armstrong also said, “The country of America idolizes, worships, glorifies George Hincapie, invites him to races, gives him jobs, buys his shit. And they disgrace and destroy me.”

He called it “fucking bullshit.”

Armstrong has and never will get that it was about much more than being a cheater.  If he had simply doped along with all the others and had fessed up, would have been a different story.  Instead, he was (and is) a repulsive and putrid person hell bent on destroying the lives of others.   That, people don't forget about.   Unless it's the tribe of Yes men surrounding him, College and the others.  

 

[52-80 19,047]

Lol, fans by and large still love Pantani.  You could say in Italy they even worship him.  Because he's not a dickbag.  Like Armstrong.

[Deej 76,400]

"Michael Jordan really seems like an asshole."

Lance: "Hold my beer!"

[sheeeit 129]

At the risk of being booted, I kind of liked the Dr Beeper arguments and kind of agree with him.  If say Emmit Smith or Deion Sanders or Christian Mcaffery or any 100 or so world class football, basketball players decided at age 15 to quit their sport and focus entirely on cycling, I think it is very, very likely they would have been a world class cyclists.  If Lance, or any great cyclist, quit cycling at 15 and focused on literally any other sport, they likely would not even be good enough to be a college standout.  Not to say they are not great athletes and they certainly dominated their sport but they did not compete against the greatest athletes in the world.  

On the actual show, I was a big Lance defender until the bitter end but when he said he basically sleeps well at night then it is obvious he still does not get it and is not the least bit sorry for his actions.

[52-80 19,047]

6 hours ago, sheeeit said:

At the risk of being booted, I kind of liked the Dr Beeper arguments and kind of agree with him.  If say Emmit Smith or Deion Sanders or Christian Mcaffery or any 100 or so world class football, basketball players decided at age 15 to quit their sport and focus entirely on cycling, I think it is very, very likely they would have been a world class cyclists.  If Lance, or any great cyclist, quit cycling at 15 and focused on literally any other sport, they likely would not even be good enough to be a college standout.  Not to say they are not great athletes and they certainly dominated their sport but they did not compete against the greatest athletes in the world.  

On the actual show, I was a big Lance defender until the bitter end but when he said he basically sleeps well at night then it is obvious he still does not get it and is not the least bit sorry for his actions.

 

Lol.  Can you explain physiologically how this works?

[Nivek 16,772]

i drove 4000km over 4 days and i was pooped.  cant imagine covering that distance on a bicycle. 
 
1 day of riding, 200km, ascending 4 mountains, each about 15km long at 7% gradient.... then do about 20 of those days in succession.  i think it is the most grueling athletic feat today

Spartathon is pretty tough as well.

[Nivek 16,772]

i drove 4000km over 4 days and i was pooped.  cant imagine covering that distance on a bicycle. 
 
1 day of riding, 200km, ascending 4 mountains, each about 15km long at 7% gradient.... then do about 20 of those days in succession.  i think it is the most grueling athletic feat today

Spartathon is pretty tough as well.

[Butch Had Not 2,938]

On 6/4/2020 at 7:11 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

Big LeMond fan. I’m debating watching Ep 1 of this tonight. If what I’m gathering is correct, his remorse is surface level and he has no contrition. Makes me want to have nothing to do with it.

The level of asshole is at a level I may have never seen before from an athlete. MJ and bill romanowski think LA is an unhinged dickhead. Ty cobb was offended. 

I don't know if the parts regarding  the foundation are authentic or not because it's not the same guy at all visiting these patients. I realize that people can morph or be a different person in certain situations and I bought in at the time like the rest of us that Livestrong was doing great things. 

 

[4th&Five 41,444]

When he cut his finger I was hoping he’d somehow bleed out. Such a cunt.