The Lance 30 for 30

[Jiggy-Z 3,428]

Back in the day, my company did all of the concrete work at the Livestrong Foundation.  It was a really cool project with some pretty innovative site concrete and reuse of existing panels.  The project won all kinds of awards and had some great glossy photos gracing numerous construction publications...more pub than I think it really deserved considering all of the way more complicated and beautiful projects for museums, botanical gardens, campus buildings, etc. that were completed around the same time.  I guess, back then, everybody wanted a piece of the Armstrong vibe.  It no longer appears on our resume and was replaced with the HQ building for the Michael and Susan Dell Foundation, which I think is totally lame.  But I just don't need the negative connotations it brings.

Over the years, I have learned to appreciate some of the more narrow focused  sports mentioned (marathon, cycling, diving, swimming) as well as a few others (rock climbing, figure skating, surfing, etc.)  Who is to say that just because one sport does not involve many more movements and varied athletic strengths that it's nuances and tweaks are not just as as important as the overall competency required in the "appreciated" sports.  Further, the narrow focused sports require a great deal of overall competency and necessary cross training to maintain balance and prevent injury.  

Of course, you do have to draw the line somewhere. Chess, curling, and archery  would be right out.

[TexMex Horn 68]

To me it's Sports, athletic events & hobbies. 3 entirely different things that all show up on espn

 

[Gene Parmesan 3,992]

Stamina is an attribute of athleticism.  Just like agility, speed, strength, coordination, and balance.  Every sport needs some mixture of those things along with skill.  Endurance sports aren't mainstream in America that's why a lot think that they just train to gain that particular ability.  Yes they train their asses off, but elite guys are born with an extra level that separates them from the masses.  Just like the masses can't reach 4.4 or less speed no matter how much they train they can't run a 2 hour marathon no matter how much they train.

 

[Fondren & Main 6,658]

So, we all hate Roger Clemens too, right?

[Al Czervik 1,228]

I came here to be entertained by the Lance Armstrong being a prick stories, thread started out hot and turned into a debate on who is considered an athlete.

Way to go Surly.

[TrashMaster G 17,379]

22 hours ago, Alex Karev said:

Who pissed in his Cheerio's?

In his Cheerio's what?

[4th&Five 41,457]

1 hour ago, Fondren & Main said:

So, we all hate Roger Clemens too, right?

My feelings are pretty similar. I don’t think he’s as big of an asshole as lance and accomplished plenty (including here) before he started juicing. Lance was barely above average without cheating iirc. 

['stache 21,743]

21 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

He still looks good. 

So you're saying you want his clock?

['stache 21,743]

3 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Sarcasm detector needs adjusting.  I thought if nothing else the part where I said I could run two marathons a day might have made that obvious.  

A 2 hour marathon is one of the more impressive athletic achievements I can think of, which was the reason for the post.  Using anything track and field related as an example of “not real athletes” is pretty absurd on its face, even more so when the example is someone running 26 uninterrupted sub 5 minute miles.

It's hard to detect sarcasm when the person before you compared elite marathon runners and cycling to bass fishing and curling. You're comments were far less absurd and plausibly not sarcacm by comparison.

Edited May 26, 2020 by 'stache

[demos 2,992]

So, we all hate Roger Clemens too, right?

Well, he is partly responsible for devaluing my baseball cards.

[immortal13 4,059]

14 hours ago, SKA the boss said:

Fuck him and the nutless, lying, cheating bike he rode in on.

So you're saying you're not a Lance fan?

[Gene Parmesan 3,992]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I think cycling is an incredibly difficult endeavor that doesn’t really require a lot of athleticism. Go pull some fake Dallas sports radio numbers, brotha. 

By a lot of athleticism, do you mean a lot of variety of athleticism, or do you not think endurance is a thing?  I could buy an argument that athlete from sport A is superior to B because of the variety of athleticism required.  It would still be personal preference but at least that still based on something. 

[South Austin 52,037]

1 hour ago, Fondren & Main said:

So, we all hate Roger Clemens too, right?

I mean, I'm not going to tell that to his face.  But I think I could easily take Lance in a fight.

[Gene Parmesan 3,992]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Stamina can be trained for. Agility and speed and coordination cannot. Strength cannot beyond a certain body frame extent.

You train for all of them.  All fast football/basketball players speed train.  They are just born with something extra that allows them to reach at a level that others can't reach.  Stamina is no different.  It's just less fun to Americans.  

[Guest Lobo]

 

['stache 21,743]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Endurance can be trained into anyone with the right body size for that particular sport, with the right mental fortitude. Agility, coordination, speed and size cannot. 

Once again, I’m not saying marathoners or cyclists aren’t athletes. I’m saying the very best of those of all time in those sports are out-athleted by hundreds of thousands in the “popular” sports. And that, in and of itself, is why those sports are more popular.   

So if the Olympics had a general category for "most athletic person in the world" what would you include in the required activities? You seem to be focused on a particular form of athleticism while completely disregarding others. It's mindboggling that you are disregarding speed and agility for runners and cyclists and saying stamina is all that is required. Elite cyclists and runners are literally separated by speed. Have you ever tried cycling up a mountain as part of a days long ride? That's more than stamina, it involves strength. And athleticism has nothing to do with what makes a sport "popular." Watching a competition between teams is generally more interesting to laypeople that guys running in circles or guys riding a bike. And nevertheless, golf and nascar are immensely popular despite involving minimal "athleticism" by most definitions (I've come to accept that athleticism can help in golf but John Daly is still one of the best in the world, so there's that).

Edited May 26, 2020 by 'stache

[Gene Parmesan 3,992]

1 minute ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Nope. You can actually make yourself have more stamina. You cannot give yourself more speed or agility. And of course you train for them all. 

Sure you can.  You reach a point where you can't and for elite athletes that level is much higher, but assuming you aren't at that point you absolutely train to become faster and more agile.  It may have to come the extent of strength/size so depending on what you want it may not be feasible.   Same with stamina you reach a point what you body was born for and the elite guys that point is just much higher.  You think the only thing that separates endurance athletes is simply training time?

[immortal13 4,059]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

You cannot give yourself more speed or agility. And of course you train for them all. 

the fuck? 

[Gene Parmesan 3,992]

18 minutes ago, 'stache said:

So if the Olympics had a general category for "most athletic person in the world" what would you include in the required activities? You seem to be focused on a particular form of athleticism while completely disregarding others. It's mindboggling that you are disregarding speed and agility for runners and cyclists and saying stamina is all that is required. Elite cyclists and runners are literally separated by speed. Have you ever tried cycling up a mountain as part of a days long ride? That's more than stamina, it involves strength. And athleticism has nothing to do with what makes a sport "popular." Watching a competition between teams is generally more interesting to laypeople that guys running in circles or guys riding a bike. And nevertheless, golf and nascar are immensely popular despite involving minimal "athleticism" by most definitions (I've come to accept that athleticism can help in golf but John Daly is still one of the best in the world, so there's that).

At first I thought he was coming from a variety angle, but his latest posts are basically that anyone can increase their endurance and since everyone that is athletic can probably reach speeds of 13mph it's just a matter of training for them to run at that speed for 26.2 miles.  

[immortal13 4,059]

Speed and agility can be improved through training, whether you are a "fat ass" or already an accomplished athlete. Obviously you are not aware of this modern technology, but it does indeed exist.  

* There is a speed, agility, quickness training facility near where I live in the massive "metro" city of Tyler Texas. They cater to athletes, not fat asses. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by immortal13

[Guest Lobo]

16 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

the fuck? 

Yeah, it's a rare...but immortal13 is right.  You can absolutely train for more speed and more agility.  Most football, basketball, even T&F training based around that premise.  Now yeah, you're talking tiny increments.  You're either already at 95th percentile speed when you get to high level football, but it's a matter of who wants to train, eat right, and rehab to get up to 98-99th percentile in speed and agility that's the question.  You can absolutely do that.  But yes...there are also some events that are just will power like a marathon.  It's simplistic to say but that's just body type/lung configuration + training/training/training + mental fortitude + 1% luck/nutrition/the proper alarm clock to wake you up for the NYC marathon.  

[Deej 76,511]

1 hour ago, Gene Parmesan said:

They are just born with something extra that allows them to reach at a level that others can't reach.   

 

[HornOnTheBayou 8,877]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I don’t even know where to begin here. You cannot train yourself to be a good athlete. You can however train yourself to be a good cross country guy or cyclist - without a shred of athleticism - with hard work. 

On endurance athletes, yes, it’s a combination of training time and mental fortitude. Neither of which require any athleticism. 

Alright, everyone. I'm going to log off for a while to go train so I can win next year's Tour de France. Sure I'm an overweight forty-one year-old, but Dr. Beeper told me I could do it with a few extra hours on my Peloton.

[topochico 1,049]

I just want to say that it is truly unfortunate that we can't all just come together in one united voice and say that Lance is a vile person devoid of any moral compass whatsoever and anyone who chooses to punch him in his lone ball is drinking for free tonight.

Instead, this thread has devolved into debating whether the sub 200 millisecond ground contact times of elite marathoners and extreme VO2 max limits are traits you are just born with or are they so approachable that Joe from accounting could train and run 4:35 minute miles and check a sub 2 hr marathon off his bucket list if he only had the willpower to try harder. 

Focus gentleman. Episode 2 will be here soon. 

 

[immortal13 4,059]

Doping aside, what world class cyclists do is amazing in terms of athletic achievement. Try pedaling up the nearest mountain near you....or a small hill!

[topochico 1,049]

This guy is totally going for the yellow jersey next year.

Edited May 26, 2020 by topochico

[Deej 76,511]

20 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

Alright, everyone. I'm going to log off for a while to go train so I can win next year's Tour de France. Sure I'm an overweight forty-one year-old, but Dr. Beeper told me I could do it with a few extra hours on my Peloton.

 

[DougO 5,239]

Cycling at that level takes great athleticism, but Cornhole dominates ESPN.

[Beau Vine 53,965]

3 hours ago, TexMex Horn said:

To me it's Sports, athletic events & hobbies. 3 entirely different things that all show up on espn

 

ENTERTAINMENT & Sports Programming Network

[Beau Vine 53,965]

1 hour ago, Gene Parmesan said:

You train for all of them.  All fast football/basketball players speed train.  They are just born with something extra that allows them to reach at a level that others can't reach.  Stamina is no different.  It's just less fun to Americans.  

Yeah, I've run about a dozen marathons (Boston 3X), but I didn't completely disagree with the take that marathoners aren't athletes like team sport guys are.  Other than the guys who run sub-2:20s, the most important determinant for long-distance running success is simply being disciplined enough to set a training plan and following it. 

[WBT 20,397]

Well maybe Nitro

[Wiler77 1,555]

On 5/25/2020 at 3:20 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

 And he’s not an athlete. He’s a cyclist. 

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Once again, I’m not saying marathoners or cyclists aren’t athletes. 

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Never said they weren’t athletes. Never. 

 

You do you.

[Not a cat 5,612]

So where does Alex Honnold fall on the spectrum of athletes?  Nothing other than gravity and rock he's fighting against, but what he does is certainly athletic.  And he has, IMO, done the single most impressive physical feat ever.

To further differentiate him from Lance, who may or may not be an athlete depending on the poster, he has two balls (as far as I know) and is not an asshole.

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

I love that this thread is as fucking shitty as Lance's behavior.....

I think it's always fascinating to see that Texans and particularly Austinites are the most pissed at Lance and hate him the most.  It's not surprising as they invested the most into him but still fascinating to see the loathing, which is no doubt somewhat associated with themselves for believing such a silly and obvious lie.  Like Lance was the one and lone non-dirty star in the galaxy of PED heads.  Fun to see Lance was a dickhead even before he was famous and his childhood informs a lot of it as it's obvious his Mom, herself a kid, didn't really discourage his incorrigible nature. 

It's also interesting to see how almost everyone is willing to believe the lie, if a sport in crisis, needs "saving" or a hero.  The similarities to the upcoming McGwire/Sosa documentary seem conspicuous.  It's easier to believe the lie when you want the sport or the fairy tale to be true and the stewards of the sport not only cover up the lie, but protect it and attack anyone trying to shine a light on the truth for as long as possible.  Nothing we didn't know too much other than see him talk about it cavalierly.  I do want to see how they push him in episode 2 about trying to destroy people's careers for simply trying to promote the truth.  How does he live with that?  I didn't really see a ton of regret in him in episode 1, but it was more setting the stage....

 

[Not a cat 5,612]

42 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I love that this thread is as fucking shitty as Lance's behavior.....

I think it's always fascinating to see that Texans and particularly Austinites are the most pissed at Lance and hate him the most.  It's not surprising as they invested the most into him but still fascinating to see the loathing, which is no doubt somewhat associated with themselves for believing such a silly and obvious lie.  

 

 

They're also the ones more likely to have seen Lance up close and personal in his natural environment.  

Probably a little bit of both.

['stache 21,743]

2 hours ago, topochico said:

I just want to say that it is truly unfortunate that we can't all just come together in one united voice and say that Lance is a vile person devoid of any moral compass whatsoever and anyone who chooses to punch him in his lone ball is drinking for free tonight.

Instead, this thread has devolved into debating whether the sub 200 millisecond ground contact times of elite marathoners and extreme VO2 max limits are traits you are just born with or are they so approachable that Joe from accounting could train and run 4:35 minute miles and check a sub 2 hr marathon off his bucket list if he only had the willpower to try harder. 

Focus gentleman. Episode 2 will be here soon. 

 

Well one person said something monumentally stupid, and continues to double and triple down on it, and it's just hard to ignore. I think it's still clear that most on here are still agreeing that Lance sucks a big shit.

[blacklab 11,841]

Jesus fuck if you want to argue about who is an athlete start a new fucking thread

[wild_turkey 3,150]

You cannot train yourself to be a good athlete.

Why do elite athletes practice?

You seem to agree that a running back is an elite athlete with natural strength, speed, agility, and coordination. You also claim that these attributes cannot be improved with training (or only minimally improved as you later conceded). Stamina is the only thing that can improve with training, which in your assertion makes a cyclist or a marathoner an inferior athlete compared to the running back.

So what exactly does a running back do in the offseason? Lift weights? Run sprints? Do agility drills? Why bother?

[wild_turkey 3,150]

This is part of the issue with continued Lance adoration and defense. 

That is an incredibly small minority so I’m not sure who you’re arguing with. Has anyone in this thread even defended him? This isn’t 2009. Most people agree that Lance is a piece of shit.

[High Plains Drifter 10,970]

 

Lance's dickness is only exceded by Beeper's dumbassness.

 

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4,965]

15 hours ago, Not a cat said:

So where does Alex Honnold fall on the spectrum of athletes?  Nothing other than gravity and rock he's fighting against, but what he does is certainly athletic.  And he has, IMO, done the single most impressive physical feat ever.

To further differentiate him from Lance, who may or may not be an athlete depending on the poster, he has two balls (as far as I know) and is not an asshole.

Alex Honnold is definitely an elite level athlete, but I would consider free climbing the Dawn Wall (only done by Tommy Caldwell, Kevin Jorgeson, and Adam Ondra) to be a much greater physical feat. Free soloing El Cap is obviously a tremendous physical feat, but not more so than free climbing the Dawn Wall. Mentally, Honnold's feat is much greater, but he is kind of a special case. He is just wired differently than even most elite level climbers.

[Moby Ric 2,058]

Did not watch, not going to.  Fuck that guy.

[capnamerca 570]

Dr.Beeper is clearly Derka.

[capnamerca 570]

15 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

 Pitchers are some of the best athletes around. Generally former skill position players in football (Kershaw excepted) or basketball, and generally great golfers. Absolutely I’m taking 1976 Nolan Ryan over Jenner. 

 

This might be the funniest fucking thing I've ever read. Not just on Surly ... anywhere.

[blacklab 11,841]

Dr Beeper is taking a day off.

WOULD THE REST OF YOU STUPID FUCKS STOP ARGUING WITH HIM

Any other references to who is an athlete or who isn't will result in a day off.

[Iceman 2,628]

Nm

Edited May 27, 2020 by Iceman

[Guest Lobo]

Well, it'd have to be your bag tossed.  Or your tossed bag.  Depends, salad comes in a bag at most stores now.  

Anyway, serious question---did that Lance-led VC fund from about 18 mos. again finally take off?  I mean he wasn't the GP, but he was a major lead/seed investor.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Lobo

[Don Johnson 4,744]

21 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Stamina can be trained for. Agility and speed and coordination cannot. Strength cannot beyond a certain body frame extent.

[demos 2,992]

They're also the ones more likely to have seen Lance up close and personal in his natural environment.  

This.

[lateshow 1,303]

7 hours ago, blacklab said:

Dr Beeper is taking a day off.

WOULD THE REST OF YOU STUPID FUCKS STOP ARGUING WITH HIM

Any other references to who is an athlete or who isn't will result in a day off.

What about race horses or NASCAR drivers?

 

I kid, I kid.