Black people arrested for sitting in a Starbucks

[USMCHorn 1369]

19 hours ago, F250 said:

Yeah, I've had that conversation a million times but this wasn't that conversation.

Lando can't even comprehend how that situation is a nuanced one. As a black man, I totally identify with the situation you described. Awesome that's it some white people(F250) out there that get it.

[Texas_Rocks 347]

This is just nuts. Those officers could have easily avoided this by sensibly informing Starbucks that these men were just waiting for a ride and that forcibly removing them WILL NOT LOOK GOOD. But Cops!

How hard would that have been for anyone not focused on the fact that these men were black?

[Hank Kingsley 21050]

12 minutes ago, Texas_Rocks said:

This is just nuts. Those officers could have easily avoided this by sensibly informing Starbucks that these men were just waiting for a ride and that forcibly removing them WILL NOT LOOK GOOD. But Cops!

How hard would that have been for anyone not focused on the fact that these men were black?

Unfortunately law enforcement typically considers any interaction a success if they "didn't do anything wrong".  

Doing the right thing rarely enters their mind. 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28798]

29 minutes ago, Texas_Rocks said:

This is just nuts. Those officers could have easily avoided this by sensibly informing Starbucks that these men were just waiting for a ride and that forcibly removing them WILL NOT LOOK GOOD. But Cops!

How hard would that have been for anyone not focused on the fact that these men were black?

What they should have done when the rest of their party showed up and they were ready to place their order was to talk to the manager and tell him they're ready to order so we're outta here. 

[JBJ 3664]

I think the cops did the right thing here. 

They got a call from the Starbucks manager that someone was refusing to leave when asked.  The cops asked them to leave and they still didn't.  They get taken out in cuffs.

It's the cops duty to remove trespassers, and it's their responsibility to do it with as little force as possible.  I believe we saw both.

 

What led to the manager calling police isn't clear.  It's likely that both the staff and two black men have some level of fault.

[HenryJames 66169]

1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I think the cops did the right thing here. 

They got a call from the Starbucks manager that someone was refusing to leave when asked.  The cops asked them to leave and they still didn't.  They get taken out in cuffs.

It's the cops duty to remove trespassers, and it's their responsibility to do it with as little force as possible.  I believe we saw both.

 

What led to the manager calling police isn't clear.  It's likely that both the staff and two black men have some level of fault.

[NBMisha 224]

I don't see it as the cops' duty to enforce whatever claims the starbucks manner may make.  What gives the starbucks manner the inherent civil authority to take this police action?  Why can't the cops come in and judge the situation, then act in proportion to what they find?  I think that is their job.

[hayden_horn 11365]

10 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I think the cops did the right thing here. 

They got a call from the Starbucks manager that someone was refusing to leave when asked.  The cops asked them to leave and they still didn't.  They get taken out in cuffs.

It's the cops duty to remove trespassers, and it's their responsibility to do it with as little force as possible.  I believe we saw both.

 

What led to the manager calling police isn't clear.  It's likely that both the staff and two black men have some level of fault.

this is a god-awful take. at some point, one would hope that people can be reasonable. the cops should not be erring on the side of "well, arrest them." they should err on the side of trying to negotiate a reasonable outcome without diverting resources to book these guys and have them in cells only not to charge them.

[Amobie 58]

Hotep nation is fucking with Starbucks.  

 

 

[David Dennison 18946]

7 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I think the cops did the right thing here. 

They got a call from the Starbucks manager that someone was refusing to leave when asked.  The cops asked them to leave and they still didn't.  They get taken out in cuffs.

It's the cops duty to remove trespassers, and it's their responsibility to do it with as little force as possible.  I believe we saw both.

 

What led to the manager calling police isn't clear.  It's likely that both the staff and two black men have some level of fault.

Are you sure it's the cops' duty to remove trespassers?

[Brisketexan 105319]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you sure it's the cops' duty to remove trespassers?

Actually, yes, it is (well, to be clear -- cops don't have a duty to do shit).  But it is the JOB of cops.  That's because we generally don't want folks employing "self-help" and getting in a fight with other folks.

If a person is asked to leave the premises (let's go with an obvious example, where nobody is going to argue - some guy comes into your hotel lobby drunk as hell, starts pissing int he potted plants, and cussing loudly at each passing guest, and the manager says "sir, you need to leave," and he says "fuck you, make me," and continues with the pissing and cussing and whatnot), and that person refuses the leave, the proper next step is to have the cops come take care of it.

Yeah, the cops could arrest the guy above for pissing, or making a disturbance, but it's also a clean trespassing arrest.

The problem here was that "sitting and waiting for someone to meet us" isn't a good trespassing scenario.  It reeks of bullshit.  And then, when the cops arrive and realize that's what they're dealing with, they shouldn't treat it like a good trespassing scenario.  They should question the manager and other patrons, and figure out what's going on.

[JBJ 3664]

24 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

this is a god-awful take. at some point, one would hope that people can be reasonable. the cops should not be erring on the side of "well, arrest them." they should err on the side of trying to negotiate a reasonable outcome without diverting resources to book these guys and have them in cells only not to charge them.

It's not the cops job to tell Starbucks it is being unreasonable.  It's their job to enforce the law.  I don't think they erred on the side of "just arrest them."  They were asked to leave willingly by both the owner and officers.

 

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you sure it's the cops' duty to remove trespassers?

Yes.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Cops don't "enforce the law" to the max without discretion.  They exercise discretion literally all the time.   

[David Dennison 18946]

5 minutes ago, JBJ said:

It's not the cops job to tell Starbucks it is being unreasonable.  It's their job to enforce the law.  I don't think they erred on the side of "just arrest them."  They were asked to leave willingly by both the owner and officers.

 

Yes.

Are you sure? Duty is a legal term of art. Can Starbuck's sue for damages if the cops don't remove a trespasser?

[JBJ 3664]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you sure? Duty is a legal term of art. Can Starbuck's sue for damages if the cops don't remove a trespasser?

How about it is their job, then?

[David Dennison 18946]

2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

How about it is their job, then?

At their discretion. They did not have to arrest those men or even ask them to leave.

[bad_teammate 13224]

23 minutes ago, JBJ said:

It's not the cops job to tell Starbucks it is being unreasonable.  It's their job to enforce the law.  I don't think they erred on the side of "just arrest them."  They were asked to leave willingly by both the owner and officers.

What if the law says that a private business cannot kick people out for being black and the "they didn't buy any coffee" is an obvious pretext given that white customers were allowed to stay without buying anything?

Which law should the police be enforcing?

(The one that benefits white capital, of course!)

[Zepol87 9191]

18 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

At their discretion. They did not have to arrest those men or even ask them to leave.

They do if they are black. Didn't you get the memo?

[JBJ 3664]

21 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What if the law says that a private business cannot kick people out for being black and the "they didn't buy any coffee" is an obvious pretext given that white customers were allowed to stay without buying anything?

Which law should the police be enforcing?

(The one that benefits white capital, of course!)

This is such a red herring.  Did I miss the part where Starbucks was refusing to serve them?  Because the story I read is that two black guys were refusing to custom the Starbucks. 

But let's assume Starbucks did violate a law - the cops should enforce the most immediate one first.  For example, if someone is stealing a car from a used car lot.   But the guy claims that car was stolen from him and sold to the dealership.  You arrest the dude for bulgary, then investigate his claim that it was stolen property.

Edited April 18, 2018 by JBJ

[JBJ 3664]

24 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

At their discretion. They did not have to arrest those men or even ask them to leave.

But they should.  Doing your job is the right thing to do.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Exercising discretion is part of their job.  

[bad_teammate 13224]

15 minutes ago, JBJ said:

This is such a red herring.  Did I miss the part where Starbucks was refusing to serve them?  Because the story I read is that two black guys were refusing to custom the Starbucks. 

But let's assume Starbucks did violate a law - the cops should enforce the most immediate one first.  For example, if someone is stealing a car from a used car lot.   But the guy claims that car was stolen from him and sold to the dealership.  You arrest the dude for bulgary, then investigate his claim that it was stolen property.

i.e., the one that benefits white capital

Your analogy is ridiculous. If a law exists that you cannot kick someone out for being black then the cops SHOULD make the vaguest effort to figure out whether or not that is what is happening before taking away the freedom of a citizen. It doesn't take a deep forensic fucking analysis when a white woman is right there saying, "Hey I didn't buy anything either and they haven't told me to leave." and another saying, "They gave me the bathroom code without saying anything."

There is nothing that was happening there that was "immediate". Two people were sitting peacefully at a table. The only urgency came from racist power being infuriated that it was not immediately obeyed.

Your assertion is essentially that cops should be brainless lapdogs of business. Which is, of course, exactly what we collectively want our cops to be, the violent, racist, and armed wing of capitalist enterprise.

The idea that blacks should just take oppression and handle it later is exactly the bullshit MLK was talking about in his letter from a Birmingham jail. It's DixonHur's whole outlook on the issue of racial justice: Just eat the pile of shit we've shoved in your mouth and hope we like you enough not to do it again later.

Fuck that. Fuck Starbucks. Fuck cops.

Edited April 18, 2018 by bad_teammate

[David Dennison 18946]

6 minutes ago, JBJ said:

But they should.  Doing your job is the right thing to do.

 

Is it?

[hayden_horn 11365]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Exercising discretion is part of their job.  

this escapes many people, not the least of whom are the actual fucking cops.

once they got there, and found out these guys were waiting for a friend and hadn't actually disturbed anything, and had not actually yet been told to leave by a manager, the cops go to the manager to deescalate the situation, and we never even hear about this.

cops increasingly seem to be merely a hammer. and when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

this could have easily been problem-solved with some critical thinking. alas.

[Hank Kingsley 21050]

At this point it's pretty clear the vast majority of cops aren't critical thinkers.  Nuance is not a trait they utilize. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Hank Kingsley

[Amobie 58]

Just now, Hank Kingsley said:

At this point it's pretty clear the vast majority of cops aren't critical thinkers. 

I'd put this on the shoulders of the manager much more than the cops.  If the manager is saying they are trespassing and they don't remove themselves from the property, law enforcement is supposed to do it.  

[JBJ 3664]

11 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

this escapes many people, not the least of whom are the actual fucking cops.

once they got there, and found out these guys were waiting for a friend and hadn't actually disturbed anything, and had not actually yet been told to leave by a manager, the cops go to the manager to deescalate the situation, and we never even hear about this.

cops increasingly seem to be merely a hammer. and when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

this could have easily been problem-solved with some critical thinking. alas.

Well there's at least 5 minutes of video with 3 of the cops seemingly reasoning with the pair and the 2 others are presumably talking with the manager.

If the manager did not ask them to leave and just called the cops, that looks really bad for Starbucks.  You aren't trespassing until you are asked to leave.

[Texas_Rocks 347]

Authority first, ask questions later.

[David Dennison 18946]

1 minute ago, Amobie said:

I'd put this on the shoulders of the manager much more than the cops.  If the manager is saying they are trespassing and they don't remove themselves from the property, law enforcement is supposed to do it.  

I'm not sure they are. They owe no duty to the manager or Starbucks. 

[High Plains Drifter 11052]

28 minutes ago, JBJ said:

But they should.  Doing your job is the right thing to do.

[Spankytoes 1743]

First off, I agree that this was completely handled the wrong way. The cops should have let them be, especially when their friend showed up proving their story. This was a case of a manager with a power trip and cops that wanted to show who is in charge to a couple of guys that peacefully stood their ground and refused to comply with their request. But, we still don’t know what lead up to the start of the video where the cops are already on the scene. We just assume that the manager was the instigator.

Having said that…this feels like a “cry wolf” racism story. It’s amazing to me that the FIRST instinct people have with these types of stories is “See, everyone is racist!” Maybe people are just dicks sometimes and the color of your skin has fuck-all to do with it? No one would give a shit if it was a black manager kicking out a couple of punk white teens waiting on their friend. Starbucks damn sure wouldn’t close their stores down for the PR. Maybe this was real racism. It’s getting harder and harder to know where the lines are anymore because you’re either on the social justice side or you’re one of “them” these days.

I miss the 90’s.

[Hank Kingsley 21050]

3 minutes ago, Amobie said:

I'd put this on the shoulders of the manager much more than the cops.  If the manager is saying they are trespassing and they don't remove themselves from the property, law enforcement is supposed to do it.  

Coffee shop managers don't have much experience with these types of situations.  They get mad or scared and make an emotional decision.  They weren't hired on their ability to deal with trespassing scenarios and laws.

Cops are supposed to be the professionals. They're in these situations on a daily basis.

[Amobie 58]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not sure they are. They owe no duty to the manager or Starbucks. 

I'm not sure what the legal term would be, but I think the manager would be acting on behalf of the owners of the property since they are essentially running the business.  If some guy walks into my office and refuses to leave, I can call the police and have them removed.  I don't have to own the building or be the CEO of starbucks in order to have them removed from the business.  

[David Dennison 18946]

Just now, Amobie said:

I'm not sure what the legal term would be, but I think the manager would be acting on behalf of the owners of the property since they are essentially running the business.  If some guy walks into my office and refuses to leave, I can call the police and have them removed.  I don't have to own the building or be the CEO of starbucks in order to have them removed from the business.  

You can call the police, but I'm not sure the police are under any legal obligation to do what you ask them to do unless the public is threatened in some way.

[bad_teammate 13224]

3 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

First off, I agree that this was completely handled the wrong way. The cops should have let them be, especially when their friend showed up proving their story. This was a case of a manager with a power trip and cops that wanted to show who is in charge to a couple of guys that peacefully stood their ground and refused to comply with their request. But, we still don’t know what lead up to the start of the video where the cops are already on the scene. We just assume that the manager was the instigator.

Having said that…this feels like a “cry wolf” racism story. It’s amazing to me that the FIRST instinct people have with these types of stories is “See, everyone is racist!” Maybe people are just dicks sometimes and the color of your skin has fuck-all to do with it? No one would give a shit if it was a black manager kicking out a couple of punk white teens waiting on their friend. Starbucks damn sure wouldn’t close their stores down for the PR. Maybe this was real racism. It’s getting harder and harder to know where the lines are anymore because you’re either on the social justice side or you’re one of “them” these days.

I miss the 90’s.

So the cops and manager focused on the two black guys who didn't buy coffee and not the white woman who didn't buy coffee because... random chance? lol fuck off

[Amobie 58]

1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Coffee shop managers don't have much experience with these types of situations.  They get mad or scared and make an emotional decision.  They weren't hired on their ability to deal with trespassing scenarios and laws.

Cops are supposed to be the professionals. They're in these situations on a daily basis.

That's not why they were hired but it is one of their responsibilities i'm sure.  He obviously failed miserably.  

 

[Spankytoes 1743]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

So the cops and manager focused on the two black guys who didn't buy coffee and not the white woman who didn't buy coffee because... random chance? lol fuck off

What white woman? Did I miss that part of the story?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Police have the authority to arrest in this situation.   A Starbucks manager has the right to force the issue in this situation and demand removal of the men.   That doesn't make what happened the right course of action for the manager or the cops, nor does it make it the only way this could have played it out.   The manager was wrong, but so were the cops. 

[Amobie 58]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

You can call the police, but I'm not sure the police are under any legal obligation to do what you ask them to do unless the public is threatened in some way.

I'm not legal expert but i'm pretty sure that isn't a legal requirement of trespass.  Otherwise you'd have homeless people setting up camp inside businesses on a daily business.  The policy of only allowing access to the amenities of the business to paying customers is pretty standard.

[Amobie 58]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Police have the authority to arrest in this situation.   A Starbucks manager has the right to force the issue in this situation and demand removal of the men.   That doesn't make what happened the right course of action for the manager or the cops, nor does it make it the only way this could have played it out.   The manager was wrong, but so were the cops. 

100% agree with regard to the manager.  I'm not sure the cops had a choice because the manager pushed the issue.  I'm not a lawyer though.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Amobie

[David Dennison 18946]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Police have the authority to arrest in this situation.   A Starbucks manager has the right to force the issue in this situation and demand removal of the men.   That doesn't make what happened the right course of action for the manager or the cops, nor does it make it the only way this could have played it out.   The manager was wrong, but so were the cops. 

This is correct. It is also very different from a duty to arrest and I think some folks here are getting the two confused.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

3 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

What white woman? Did I miss that part of the story?

Yes:

 

One patron who spoke with WPTI-TV confirmed that the incident began after the men were refused access to the restroom, but she claimed that the Starbucks manager did not ask the men to buy something or leave, and just called the police instead. She also said that she had seen a white woman obtain the code for the bathroom without buying something right before the men were arrested, and that during the incident, another person in the Starbucks announced that she had been sitting in the location for hours without purchasing anything.

 

[David Dennison 18946]

1 minute ago, Amobie said:

I'm not legal expert but i'm pretty sure that isn't a legal requirement of trespass.  Otherwise you'd have homeless people setting up camp inside businesses on a daily business.  The policy of only allowing access to the amenities of the business to paying customers is pretty standard.

Again, the cops do not have to arrest a trespasser if they choose not to.

[Amobie 58]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Again, the cops do not have to arrest a trespasser if they choose not to.

I would have just had them escorted off the premises. In my mind, that would have been appropriate. 

[TwiceHorn 31534]

1 hour ago, NBMisha said:

I don't see it as the cops' duty to enforce whatever claims the starbucks manner may make.  What gives the starbucks manner the inherent civil authority to take this police action?  Why can't the cops come in and judge the situation, then act in proportion to what they find?  I think that is their job.

It's the nature of trespass.  The owner determines when a person is trespassing.  If the owner denies or revokes permission to be on the premises, bang, it's a civil tort and a criminal offense.  If the owner calls the popo and tells the popo "These people do not have permission to be on my property, but will not leave," the popo has little choice but to remove them, at minimum, and charge them with trespassing at worst.

 

I am of the belief that the popo in this instance probably should have asked the manager "really?"  But, the same sort of "casual racism" that provoked the manager to call the popo in the first place operated to prevent them from community policing.

[hayden_horn 11365]

6 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

What white woman? Did I miss that part of the story?

you must have. 

they were refused the bathroom code, because they weren't customers. they then sat down, to wait for their friend to arrive. then the manager called 911, without confronting the gentlemen. as the men were being arrested, a white woman was permitted the bathroom code prior to purchase. i mean, if you want to debate an issue, i usually respect your input, but at least read the fundamentals of the story.

[David Dennison 18946]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's the nature of trespass.  The owner determines when a person is trespassing.  If the owner denies or revokes permission to be on the premises, bang, it's a civil tort and a criminal offense.  If the owner calls the popo and tells the popo "These people do not have permission to be on my property, but will not leave," but the popo has little choice remove them, at minimum, and charge them with trespassing at worst.

 

Is this actually true? I'm pretty sure they are well within their rights to choose not to remove them. 

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by David Dennison

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Is this actually true? I'm pretty sure they are well within their rights to choose not to remove them. 

 

What other controlling legal authority would be responsible for enforcing a no trespassing incident ?  

 

 

[Brisketexan 105319]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Is this actually true? I'm pretty sure they are well within their rights to choose not to remove them. 

 

Again, the cops don't HAVE to do anything.  Ever.  They literally have zero legal duty.  They can eat donuts all day, and all is good.

But practically speaking, if a manager tells the cops that person X is trespassing, then the cops will almost always either tell person X they need to leave, and I'll walk you out, or they'll arrest him.  USUALLY, unless the person has a prior history (they've trespassed there and been warned before) or is being threatening/truly unruly, the cops just escort them out and tell them to move along.

Seriously, I am familiar with folks who have to deal with this sort of thing from time to time.  That's what happens pretty much every time, except if it's a repeat offender who was given a previous written trespass warning and told not to come back on the premises (if THAT person returns, then they are often arrested).

There was judgment exercised by management in calling the cops.  That was shitty judgment.

There was judgment exercised by the cops, who could have either talked management down off the ledge or simply required the guys to leave, instead of arresting them.  That was shitty judgment.

[PittsburghTiger 6196]

This fellow went in for his coffee reparations. And got a free coffee.

Sorry, just saw this on the previous page. If someone knows how to delete, please do.

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by PittsburghTiger
double post...