Black people arrested for sitting in a Starbucks

[Mole 4333]

Finding the why is important (to the extent that you can identify reasons), but writing it off as a myth based on unrelated data is unhealthy. Even if the data is used by racists, it's either true or it isn't. Pretending otherwise doesn't help, even if you have noble anti-racist objectives.

[SDG 3319]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And until you identify why that is, you are left arguing that it's because black men are deficient in some way. That is a racist argument.

No; I'm not.  I'm arguing that you can't throw useless stats out to argue a point when there are just as easily available (perhaps just as useless) stats for the other argument.  

 

I'll add see the multiple "show me the stats" responses above...

Edited April 19, 2018 by SDG

[Brian Fantana 6689]

28 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Any piece of data that suggests the nuclear family isn’t important or is the fault of systematic racism is nonsense. You don’t interpret that as actual data do you? 

Show your work.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

13 minutes ago, SDG said:

To take it a step further, our own 2016 census www.census.gov (see table C3 line 34) indicates that 59.48% of African American children do not live with both parents married or not.  (only 25.16% of not AA children live in the same circumstance)

 

In the age of the internet you can find stats to back up any argument.  

 

So 40% of black kids live with two parents? 

[SDG 3319]

Yep; and 75% of non black kids do.  

[Chrispy 132]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Show your work.

That two parents are optimal? Are you being facetious? 

[Mole 4333]

I guess if you're a glass is 40% full type.

[Chrispy 132]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

So 40% of black kids live with two parents? 

Depressing, isn’t it? 

[David Dennison 18860]

2 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Depressing, isn’t it? 

What's depressing are the reasons why their fathers are missing.

[Incredulity 11674]

Just now, David Dennison said:

What's depressing are the reasons why their fathers are missing.

It truly is.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

Finding the why is important (to the extent that you can identify reasons), but writing it off as a myth based on unrelated data is unhealthy. Even if the data is used by racists, it's either true or it isn't. Pretending otherwise doesn't help, even if you have noble anti-racist objectives.

Yeah I sort of cringed at that thinkprogress article. The other articles were illuminating but the thinkprogress article is begging the question. It's been floating around the interwebs for a few years now and always elicits comments on Facebook anytime it's posted, but like someone said you're comparing a large population of one group to a relatively small population of the other. It's not really a worthwhile endeavor. The point isn't to dismiss the problems and make believe that they don't exist. The point is to speak truth to the causes of said problems and figure out definitive ways to solve them.

 

 

[Chrispy 132]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What's depressing are the reasons why their fathers are missing.

Agreed, personal accountability seems to be a thing of the past lately. 

[David Dennison 18860]

Just now, Chrispy said:

Agreed, personal accountability seems to be a thing of the past lately. 

It would be nice if more white folks accepted personal responsibility regarding race based discrimination. Sadly, a large portion of the white population in this country thinks there's something wrong with black people. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

11 minutes ago, Mole said:

I guess if you're a glass is 40% full type.

It's not a positive, but it's more relevant than the wedlock at birth number.  So 40% of black kids live with both parents.   Looks like around 4% more live with only the father.  Among the fathers who don't live with their kids, 17% see their kids every single day, per Pancho's numbers.  That picture is different than 70% of black kids abandoned by their fathers at birth. 

[Mole 4333]

So 40% + 4% + 17% of 56% is like 53% or 54%. 

I'm no math whiz, but I think those numbers are right.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Mole

[Incredulity 11674]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

It's not a positive, but it's more relevant than the wedlock at birth number.  So 40% of black kids live with both parents.   Looks like around 4% more live with only the father.  Among the fathers who don't live with their kids, 17% see their kids every single day, per Pancho's numbers.  That picture is different than 70% of black kids abandoned by their fathers at birth. 

Straight question.  Is there a secular charity that has promotion of two parent households as a priority?  If not there should be and I would donate.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

I don't think you can just add the 17% though.  It's a percentage of absent fathers, not of kids who have absent fathers.   You'd have to know how many kids the active fathers have vs the absent. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Straight question.  Is there a secular charity that has promotion of two parent households as a priority?  If not there should be and I would donate.

Gay answer:   Sure, there's probably a few charities dedicated to promoting laws enabling gay married couples to adopt. 

[Mole 4333]

Fair point.

[Incredulity 11674]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Gay answer:   Sure, there's probably a few charities dedicated to promoting laws enabling gay married couples to adopt. 

Well played.

[kopp0e 1135]

40 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

So 40% of black kids live with two parents? 

There are a lot of enabling factors as welfare/ and food stamps, even daycare...

Did you know that to get help on daycare from DHS the caseworker will tell (normally the mother) to file child support on the other parent (normally the father)... weird stuff... 

[Huckleberry 32861]

Anyway, the wife and kids are home now and I have to do my evening responsibilities. Life is good when you’re living right, good evening gents. 

You were arguing with strangers on a message board while your wife took care of the kids alone?

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

5 hours ago, Bat Guano said:

That's exactly what they did, from my watching of the longer video. Hard to hear what people are saying on it, but I'm pretty sure when gray vest guy shows up while cops are getting ready to arrest the black guys, gray vest guy says, OK, let them go and we'll just go somewhere else. Cop says, no, they already had their chance to do that and they didn't do it. Or something like that. Then the crowd of cops slaps the cuffs on them. Respect my authoritah!

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What you say they did is not at all exactly what I said they should have done. The story should have ended with the cops leaving and the three guys staying to order their coffee as planned. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

Kinda funny how a thread about selective enforcement of Starbucks policy devolves into a thread about crime rates and out off wedlock. But then again who am I kidding. These threads always attract those who can't type fast enough inorder to justify racism because absentee fathers.

[Chrispy 132]

18 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It would be nice if more white folks accepted personal responsibility regarding race based discrimination. Sadly, a large portion of the white population in this country thinks there's something wrong with black people. 

Accepted responsibility for what exactly? Taking the blame for something you didn’t participate in is moronic, but please continue the flaggelation if it eases your pain. 

Who on this thread speculated that there is something inherently wrong with black people? We said black fathers need to raise their damn kids, that’s it. Your ilk tends to think that’s asking too much, which is nothing more than the soft bigotry of low expectations. 

[David Dennison 18860]

Just now, Chrispy said:

Accepted responsibility for what exactly? Taking the blame for something you didn’t participate in is moronic, but please continue the flaggelation if it eases your pain. 

Who on this thread speculated that there is something inherently wrong with black people? We said black fathers need to raise their damn kids, that’s it. Your ilk tends to think that’s asking too much, which is nothing more than the soft bigotry of low expectations. 

Why aren't black fathers there?

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

Probably should've let the managers know.

[Chrispy 132]

14 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

 

 

You were arguing with strangers on a message board while your wife took care of the kids alone?

 

Wife took our kids over to her friend’s house who, oddly enough, have kids also. They played and had a good time, anything else you want to know? Creepy.

[Chrispy 132]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Why aren't black fathers there?

Free will? 

[David Dennison 18860]

Just now, Chrispy said:

Free will? 

Does free will also explain the race based discrimination that influences the decisions they make?

[bad_teammate 13195]

15 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Who on this thread speculated that there is something inherently wrong with black people?

The racist who said these two racist things.

- Sitting back and pretending it’s whitey holding them down is the least effective solution, but it makes everyone feel better. 

- First, you would have to get them to acknowledge the problem, good luck with that.

[bolverk 29675]

This doesn't even address the "quality" of public housing that was developed from the 50s through the 70s, which concentrated and isolated occupants in shittily built towers.

[Chrispy 132]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Does free will also explain the race based discrimination that influences the decisions they make?

They leave their children because they’re discriminated against? I’m really trying to follow here, but this is downright strange.

[Mole 4333]

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Now, given I haven't addressed the data indicating that Black men actually are not more likely to be "absent" in the sense of uninvolved, it's pretty fucking amazingly miraculous that the Black family is holding up as well as it is.

 

Maybe I'm missing your point, but what data indicates this?

[Sawbonz 27562]

Biggest problem wasn’t the “public housing” per se. Whites were moving off the land they sharecropped for jobs in the cities too.  Public housing for poor whites meant cheap tract homes they purchased with govt backed mortgages. Blacks got housing projects. A whole lot of other shit as well but being able to own something that appreciates as opposed to throwing money away on rent was a huge leg up

 

https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america

Edited April 19, 2018 by Sawbonz
Responding to bolverk if that’s not clear

[David Dennison 18860]

1 minute ago, Chrispy said:

They leave their children because they’re discriminated against? I’m really trying to follow here, but this is downright strange.

Are you joking?

[Mole 4333]

Just now, Chrispy said:

They leave their children because they’re discriminated against? I’m really trying to follow here, but this is downright strange.

I'm going off memory, by my understanding is that conviction and sentencing rates seem to show a racial bias.

[Chrispy 132]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The racist who said these two racist things.

- Sitting back and pretending it’s whitey holding them down is the least effective solution, but it makes everyone feel better. 

- First, you would have to get them to acknowledge the problem, good luck with that.

Those are unfortunate truths. Hell, one poster even said the problem was a myth. Sheesh, that’s disturbing. 

[bolverk 29675]

5 minutes ago, Mole said:

Maybe I'm missing your point, but what data indicates this?

Editing error. It looks like a whole long ass post I made on tapa is now list on the PC platform 

[bad_teammate 13195]

16 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Now, given I haven't addressed the data indicating that Black men actually are not more likely to be "absent" in the sense of uninvolved, it's pretty fucking amazingly miraculous that the Black family is holding up as well as it is.

Given the systematic oppression of the black people for the centuries it has happened in America, the amount of patience and perseverance shown by black people in America is admirable.

Speaking of admirable...

Start about 12:50 in...

About 16:30 in for those interested in genuine insight into the long-term ramifications of slavery and Jim Crow on black America. (genuinely interest, not self-justification-seeking racists like Chrispy)

9 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Those are unfortunate truths. 

Based on what evidence? What evidence do you have that blacks "sit back" and blame "whitey"? Any evidence at all?

What evidence do you have that blacks in America do not think fatherhood and family are important? Any evidence at all?

Edited April 19, 2018 by bad_teammate

[bolverk 29675]

Hopefully, these make their way over.

[bolverk 29675]

This point shouldn't be lost in the discussion. Mechanization of agriculture and persistent Jim Crow policies in the 1950s led to a diaspora of impoverished Southern Blacks moving to Northern industrial cities. Being poor, they often had to rely on public housing.

To be eligible, however, policies dictated that a father had to be absent or that there was no breadwinner in the household. Those policies, therefore, actually incentivized fathers to be absent.

One thing that really sucked for this population is that the introduction of technology in manufacturing (like that of agriculture), along with racist Unions protecting entrenched White workers, started fucking over the Black workforce pretty hard.

Now, given I haven't addressed the data indicating that Black men actually are not more likely to be "absent" in the sense of uninvolved, it's pretty fucking amazingly miraculous that the Black family is holding up as well as it is.

[Chrispy 132]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Given the systematic oppression of the black people for the centuries it has happened in America, the amount of patience and perseverance shown by black people in America is admirable.

Speaking of admirable...

Start about 12:50 in...

Based on what evidence? What evidence do you have that blacks "sit back" and blame "whitey"? Any evidence at all?

What evidence do you have that blacks in America do not think fatherhood and family are important? Any evidence at all?

What evidence? Have you read any of this thread? It’s everyone’s fault, but the black community. 

Um, 77% of black babies were born out of wedlock last year? It has decimated their community. I’m sure they care, hell those numbers would scare anybody. 

[bolverk 29675]

The above was in response to the following by Catdaddy:

Sure they do. Post depression housing policies helped lift white people out poverty and created wealth, the middle class, and destinations of commerce. Only problem is those purposefully prevented black people from taking part and now, 80 years later, people like you look back and ask what's the problem with black people.

[bad_teammate 13195]

2 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

What evidence? Have you read any of this thread? It’s everyone’s fault, but the black community. 

You melodramatically asked if Obama represented black America... and now you're happy with this website representing black America? lol you're a fucking racist joke

Quote

Um, 77% of black babies were born out of wedlock last year? It has decimated their community. I’m sure they care, hell those numbers would scare anybody. 

If you're sure they care, why did you say they didn't? (It's because you're a cowardly racist piece of shit.

Edited April 19, 2018 by bad_teammate

[Chrispy 132]

14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you joking?

No, I don’t know what you’re arguing. That a gun was put to their head to procreate? That they were arrested and therefore couldn’t raise the child? Please clarify. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

1 minute ago, Chrispy said:

No, I don’t know what you’re arguing. That a gun was put to their head to procreate? That they were arrested and therefore couldn’t raise the child? Please clarify. 

The poor and imprisoned have a hard time staying married.

Racism has made blacks in America poor and imprisoned for centuries.

bing bong

[bad_teammate 13195]

"I'm not racist. I'm not saying that blacks are inferior; I'm just saying every other explanation is bullshit." - Not A Racist Poster lol

[Chrispy 132]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You melodramatically asked if Obama represented black America... and now you're happy with this website representing black America? lol you're a fucking racist joke

If you're sure they care, why did you say they didn't? (It's because you're a cowardly racist piece of shit.

You’re misconstruing things again, but that’s ok. I said they’re very aware of the problem and that it was nearly impossible to point said problem out if you’re not part of the community. Not that they didn’t care. 

Secondly, yes I feel they minimize the role of personal responsibility and blame racism entirely too much. Making themselves victims isn’t helping them at all, as the data shows. 

[Chrispy 132]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The poor and imprisoned have a hard time staying married.

Racism has made blacks in America poor and imprisoned for centuries.

bing bong

Why are they so poor? It couldn’t be.... no it couldn’t possibly be.... the destruction of the black family nucleus? No, it’s just that blue eyed devil again.