Minneapolis Cop Murders A Black Man

[Iceman 2978]

8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The entire attitude of police, from the ground up, is irreparably broken.

One could say the very same of our citizens.  There should not even be a need for police.  Yet there is...

People think there is no responsibility required of citizenship.  I just get to do what the fuck I want, when I want, how I want, and to whom I want.

 

I get it that we are "fixing the police," and that it is a starting place for the authority behind their badges to be legit.  I'm in 100% on this front.   I just roll my eyes at how all of the other behavior is so cavalierly glossed over, as if, in the absence of police, all of the criminals would just straighten the fuck up and act with high moral character.  We as a society and also individuals own what happens also.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Iceman

[El Diablo 4232]

2 hours ago, Iceman said:

One could say the very same of our citizens.  There should not even be a need for police.  Yet there is...

People think there is no responsibility required of citizenship.  I just get to do what the fuck I want, when I want, how I want, and to whom I want.

Really that last part is the only one that should matter. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/nyregion/molotov-cocktail-lawyers-nyc.html

 

[CleverNickname 1345]

10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Re military weapons, what they do, and the message they send.

We were at today’s march that ended up at the Capitol. It was peaceful, but I can get how the police need to be nearby and prepared for shenanigans. Fine. So what do the DPS troopers look like?

All of them look like they’re kicking back, waiting to clear houses in Fallujah. Body armor, and every one of them had an AR (and some of them looked even larger - couldn’t tel what they were as we passed by) strapped across their chest. WTF? WHY?

Preach, brother. I've always rolled my eyes and cops who want to pretend they are playing GI Joe. But only now do I associate that kind of cosplay with systemic racism. 

Two years ago my kids elementary school had a fall festival and the police showed up with some armored surplus vehicle. I pointedly thanked the cops for coming, but pointedly told them "next year, please bring a regular squad car." I don't my kids thinking an armored division is 'normal' for police. To their credit the following year they did. 

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

Something tells me that if Minnesota asked their citizens to vote to defund/disband the police it would be overwhelmingly rejected. 
 

This is the definition of “mob rule” and exactly what our founders warned against and tried to prevent. I’d move quickly to remove all sitting city council members. What an abuse of power. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by ChickenSandwich

[Armybrat 41408]

2 hours ago, Cajun said:

Problem is that LEOs and their enablers view this as synonymous with abolition.

Cunts

If the advocates spelled it out more clearly and people would read past the headlines, then perhaps there wouldn’t be such a knee jerk reaction.

[Cajun 11777]

No disagreement Brat.  The full tilt pendulum driven emo reactions on both ends do us no favors.

[Longhorn 145]

11 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Re military weapons, what they do, and the message they send.

We were at today’s march that ended up at the Capitol. It was peaceful, but I can get how the police need to be nearby and prepared for shenanigans. Fine. So what do the DPS troopers look like?

All of them look like they’re kicking back, waiting to clear houses in Fallujah. Body armor, and every one of them had an AR (and some of them looked even larger - couldn’t tel what they were as we passed by) strapped across their chest. WTF? WHY?

I mean, if the crowd got out of hand...they were gonna start throwing 20 round per mag at people? Why weren’t they carrying anything that might be useful? There was one reason for them to look that way: for them to look that way. It was purposeful intimidation, and a clear message of “fuck you, we’re the bosses.”

If they had been in street uniforms, carrying at most a sidearm, they would have looked like....cops. Not an occupying army.

The entire attitude of police, from the ground up, is irreparably broken.

When do you start to hold the liberal city council or mayor for signing off on these budget request items?  Does the police chief get full, un-checked power to buy whatever he/she wants?  

 

 

 

 

[Armybrat 41408]

Posted on the fix the police thread.....  a Rhode Island donut shop is no longer offering police & military discounts.

Fewer fat cops is a good thing, but wtf about the military? Is this the 60s & 70s?

[EuroHorn 3295]

 

21 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Posted on the fix the police thread.....  a Rhode Island donut shop is no longer offering police & military discounts.

Fewer fat cops is a good thing, but wtf about the military? Is this the 60s & 70s?

Healthcare workers are the new military.  They will get to board first at airports 

Edited June 8, 2020 by EuroHorn

[freyguy 4368]

28 minutes ago, EuroHorn said:

 

Healthcare workers are the new military.  They will get to board first at airports 

but what about military babies?

 

[Genco 3057]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Something tells me that if Minnesota asked their citizens to vote to defund/disband the police it would be overwhelmingly rejected. 
 

This is the definition of “mob rule” and exactly what our founders warned against and tried to prevent. I’d move quickly to remove all sitting city council members. What an abuse of power. 

Statewide I'm sure you are correct. I wouldn't be that confident within Minneapolis based on the culture of that police force and its relationship with the citizens. Reread Kroll's letter to his union members and tell me what your strategy would be to reform MPD absent drastic measures.

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

You start with his resignation and replacement. Then go after their immunity. Then change all leaders at the top. Mayor, Police chief and city council. Start fresh. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by ChickenSandwich

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

anybody see this exchange? think about the toxic level of cowardice and hate it takes to walk up to a young woman with your fist balled up and scream in her face because she had the audacity to protest peacefully for equal human rights. then think about how many more Americans are filled with that same impotent rage.

 

scary times, folks. 

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

There will be a law of diminishing returns on the protests/riots and looting as we are already seeing. The crazies will start to lash out, and the silent majority will quietly condemn while saying “I support BLM, but....”

The shelf life is turning quickly 

[Iceman 2978]

There is no shelf life for justice...and liberty.

 

I hope not, anyway...  This is too fundamentally important to think it will just "go away."  We must get it right.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

There will be a law of diminishing returns on the protests/riots and looting as we are already seeing. The crazies will start to lash out, and the silent majority will quietly condemn while saying “I support BLM, but....”

The shelf life is turning quickly 

are you suggesting that people should stop protesting for human rights because 'the crazies will start to lash out'? 

i don't follow what you're saying...

[Brisketexan 106900]

3 hours ago, Iceman said:

One could say the very same of our citizens.  There should not even be a need for police.  Yet there is...

People think there is no responsibility required of citizenship.  I just get to do what the fuck I want, when I want, how I want, and to whom I want.

 

I get it that we are "fixing the police," and that it is a starting place for the authority behind their badges to be legit.  I'm in 100% on this front.   I just roll my eyes at how all of the other behavior is so cavalierly glossed over, as if, in the absence of police, all of the criminals would just straighten the fuck up and act with high moral character.  We as a society and also individuals own what happens also.

Well....no shit.  We will always have criminals.  Every society does.  Generally speaking, ours is no more or less criminal than any other.  And we need cops to deal with "bad guys."  Again, no shit.

What this discussion should include is our overly expansive definition of who "bad guys" are.  Dude with some dope on him?  Nope.  Dude having a mental crisis?  Nope.  Homeless dude?  Nope.  People committing minor traffic infractions?  Nope.  90%+ of police interactions are of this character.  If we simply take these out of the mix in a variety of ways: end the war on drugs, create mental health intervention specialists for response, homelessness intervention personnel, traffic patrols that do nothing but enforce basic traffic laws (that is, they aren't using traffic infractions as an excuse to stop "suspicious vehicles").  You know, things that don't really require a badge and a gun.

If we do these, then we will have 1) taken a lot of the police plate, and 2) can and should let the police focus on genuine criminal activities and risks.

We have made the police are primary point of contact between the government and the people.  That's not a good path.

So, "defund the police," as an actual real-world policy measure, mostly means reallocating resources -- not removing their mission, but narrowing it.  Combine this with de-militarization (both in terms of equipment/appearance and training), community policing, de-escalation measures, and the dozen other things that folks around here generally seem to agree on, and we've got something.

Fundamentally, we need to change the dynamic of government interacting with the people from an adversarial one to a cooperative one.  Yes, we will still have cops dealing with crimes, we will even still have SWAT teams, and hostage situations, and horrific "active shooter" situations, and all that.  But if that is functionally the ONLY job for police, we'll all be better off.  It will take some real work and analysis, and tweaking things as we find out what works best and what doesn't (e.g., on mental health calls, if the operator gets some information that informs her that there's a genuine danger to others, maybe a police officer is dispatched WITH the mental health officer, but still letting the mental health officer be in command of the response).

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

I’m saying the population will have fatigue from the sustained rioting and looting. They seem to follow the peaceful protests quite closely. 

[mdmost 44049]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

There will be a law of diminishing returns on the protests/riots and looting as we are already seeing. The crazies will start to lash out, and the silent majority will quietly condemn while saying “I support BLM, but....”

The shelf life is turning quickly 

Is it? All I'm seeing since Thursday is peaceful protests every day with a few exceptions like the anarchists in Seattle going at it with police. Curfew lifted which has led to less confrontations with the police. National Guard troops are leaving. Calm pretty much restored. 

[mdmost 44049]

Just now, ChickenSandwich said:

I’m saying the population will have fatigue from the sustained rioting and looting. They seem to follow the peaceful protests quite closely. 

Okay. Where is there sustained rioting and looting going on?

Edited June 8, 2020 by mdmost

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Just now, ChickenSandwich said:

I’m saying the population will have fatigue from the sustained rioting and looting. They seem to follow the peaceful protests quite closely. 

are you?

[Brisketexan 106900]

7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

There will be a law of diminishing returns on the protests/riots and looting as we are already seeing. The crazies will start to lash out, and the silent majority will quietly condemn while saying “I support BLM, but....”

The shelf life is turning quickly 

I mean, except for the fact that in the last 3-4 days, there has been almost no "riots and looting."  Seriously, the protests and marches of the last several days have been uniformly peaceful.  You're just sick of being reminded that there are millions of Americans who don't think like you do.  Tough shit.

4 minutes ago, Iceman said:

There is no shelf life for justice...and liberty.

 

I hope not, anyway...  This is too fundamentally important to think it will just "go away."  We must get it right.

Absofuckinglutely.

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

are you suggesting that people should stop protesting for human rights because 'the crazies will start to lash out'? 

i don't follow what you're saying...

He's saying that by continuing to stand up for right, it's really irritating assholes who support shit that's wrong -- racism and shit.  Oh no, we're going to annoy evil racist pieces of shit! 

[Huckleberry 34657]

1 minute ago, mdmost said:

Okay. Where is there sustained rioting and looting going on?

In his mind, so screen shots will be difficult. It makes him feel better to believe that the "other side" (i.e., people who typically vote for Democrats) are bad people who are rioting and looting. Just like it made Whitefish Tough Guy feel better to believe that the protesters were imported in caravans.

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Is it? All I'm seeing since Thursday is peaceful protests every day with a few exceptions like the anarchists in Seattle going at it with police. Curfew lifted which has led to less confrontations with the police. National Guard troops are leaving. Calm pretty much restored. 

Was a good day again yesterday, so maybe the violence is over?  Glad to be wrong. 

[Brisketexan 106900]

2 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Okay. Where is there sustained rioting and looting going on?

Etc.

You think that reality has any bearing here?  Nope.  The narrative has been created.  Seriously, go and check out the social media discussions from the Fox News crowd.  Turns out, NONE of these protests are actually popular protests.  They are all completely manipulated and organized by a well-funded network of evil Antifa, socialists, Soros, pizza parlor owners and shit, all intent on causing mayhem and "destroying America."

It is imperative to their worldview that they dismiss any popular sentiment against them as some evil plot.  Otherwise, they might have to confront the possibility that THEY are the ones who are wrong, THEY are the ones who support shitty policies, etc.  Nope, can't have that.  MUST BE SOROS!

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Just now, ChickenSandwich said:

Was a good day again yesterday, so maybe the violence is over?  Glad to be wrong. 

why was your first inclination to justify that coward's actions? 

"well, he's just angry from all the sustained rioting and looting that's going on* and he's lashing out...it's going to continue to happen as people get fed up with all the sustained rioting and looting going on**'

*there is no sustained rioting and looting going on

**there is no sustained rioting and looting going on

[Brisketexan 106900]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

why was your first inclination to justify that coward's actions? 

"well, he's just angry from all the sustained rioting and looting that's going on* and he's lashing out...it's going to continue to happen as people get fed up with all the sustained rioting and looting going on**'

*there is no sustained rioting and looting going on

**there is no sustained rioting and looting going on

Shhh....you'll disturb the narrative.  It is 100% essential that folks like him be able to dismiss a sustained movement driven by tens of millions of people because of violent actions taken by a few hundred people a few days ago.  It's a tale as old as the civil rights struggle itself.  It's exactly how they dismissed MLK's movement.

[VABuckeye 2481]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Generally speaking, ours is no more or less criminal than any other.

Our murder rate is much higher than most other countries.

[Brisketexan 106900]

17 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

Our murder rate is much higher than most other countries.

Mixed true/false.  We have the 55th ranked murder rate....which does put us in the top third.  So, we're above-average.....BUT....a significant amount of that is drug-trade-related violence (both directly and indirectly).  This is yet another huge reason to end the war on drugs.

There are numerous other underlying issues, of course, including significant socioeconomic inequality, the ease of access to firearms, etc.  We can and should focus on broad violent crime reduction efforts.  Again, we will continue to need police.  But again, generally speaking in terms of violent crimes altogether, we're pretty firmly in the middle of the pack.  We are not a war zone.  Nor are we an idyllic crime-free island.  We're about what you would expect in terms of violent crime.  And note that it has generally declined over the last 50 years.

[BabaYaga 15625]

33 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Etc.

You think that reality has any bearing here?  Nope.  The narrative has been created.  Seriously, go and check out the social media discussions from the Fox News crowd.  Turns out, NONE of these protests are actually popular protests.  They are all completely manipulated and organized by a well-funded network of evil Antifa, socialists, Soros, pizza parlor owners and shit, all intent on causing mayhem and "destroying America."

It is imperative to their worldview that they dismiss any popular sentiment against them as some evil plot.  Otherwise, they might have to confront the possibility that THEY are the ones who are wrong, THEY are the ones who support shitty policies, etc.  Nope, can't have that.  MUST BE SOROS!

Definitely not political.....

[VABuckeye 2481]

If you look at first world murder rates we fall down that list.

Re: Ending the war on drugs.  Where do you draw the line?  Opoid addiction is a serious problem in this country.  Same with meth.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

If you look at first world murder rates we fall down that list.

Re: Ending the war on drugs.  Where do you draw the line?  Opoid addiction is a serious problem in this country.  Same with meth.

[Brisketexan 106900]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Definitely not political.....

We have someone here repeating the narrative over and over that the protests are just "rioting and looters."  That narrative is 100% driven from somewhere.  And it's false.  This is a current event, and that lie is a huge damned problem and yes, it's glaringly obvious where it's coming from.

I marched yesterday with thousands of people....some harsh words were spoken.  Some strong demands were made.  There was no violence.  No rioting.  No looting.  Millions of people did likewise this weekend. But that is entirely dismissed for a narrative of an ongoing event that is false.  That's a pretty big fucking problem.

[Brisketexan 106900]

3 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

If you look at first world murder rates we fall down that list.

Re: Ending the war on drugs.  Where do you draw the line?  Opoid addiction is a serious problem in this country.  Same with meth.

Simple.  I do what The Economist suggested many years ago.  Treat it as a health problem, not a legal problem.  The same reason we attack a house on fire with hoses and water instead of artillery.  Both are methods of attacking a fire (seriously, explosions can do a solid job of putting out a fire).

[VABuckeye 2481]

Opioid  

[Guest Lobo]

Is that Oprah Optimally Opining on the Opioid Opacity?  Or does she just need an Optometrist?  

 

[seven 1368]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

If you look at first world murder rates we fall down that list.

Re: Ending the war on drugs.  Where do you draw the line?  Opoid addiction is a serious problem in this country.  Same with meth.

Do you feel the war on drugs is helping these problems? 

[Iceman 2978]

Yeah, there were 2 different marches/ demonstrations in Amarillo Saturday.  I did not attend as I was unaware of the events; but saw several people walking downtown to the police HQ with signs and stuff in what I could only assume were many family units.  People had on their Sunday best, as it were.  Later on, I stopped to get gas at a store on the north side, less than a mile from the other gathering.   I saw more folks who were leaving, dressed up in nice clothes and had what appeared to be 3 generations of their family together for it.  This is important and certain folks need to stop dismissing it as a fad or whatever.

I was born in 1970.  I've never witnessed anything like this across the country in my lifetime.  I am excited for the changes that are possible.  I hope the extremists on either end of the spectrum don't blow the opportunity to make a correction on something that is very broken.

 

[Huckleberry 34657]

15 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Definitely not political.....

Are you implying that Fox News is just an arm of the Republican Party?

[TwiceHorn 32079]

13 hours ago, dcar00 said:

sure.  my point is the military style weapons, mine proof vehicles, tactical gear aren't the issue.  If you want to say that the money should be spent elsewhere that is fine. the problem is everyone wants to yell about the weapons and gear cause police killings.  they don't and warrior style policing has been around since the 60's. the 75 year old man was shoved down by a guy with a baton. Its the training not the equipment and the training has been going on for a long time.

I'm guessing 99% of the deaths are a caused by police with handguns, shotguns and rifles.

I am also of the opinion that the national guard needs to be called in much sooner when riots start(or even before).  This might help police be behind the front line in a support role. governors and mayors need to be prepared to accept it because city cops are NOT prepared to quell this level of sustained violence.

 

 

The military gear may not be used all that frequently in civil rights violations, but it is symbolic of the need and desire of the police to project force against the citizenry.  That is, it perpetuates the notion that the citizenry is the enemy. That in itself is no bueno. 

As far as I can tell, outside of isolated SWAT scenarios against a barricaded shooter, military gear is used and justified most often by warrant service.  While it ostensibly protects the boys in blue from dangerous armed criminals about to be searched or arrested, what it actually does is increase their invulnerability and thereby make them more likely to engage in highly risky warrant service endeavors, like no-knocks generally.

Without the gear, I believe the popo would be more circumspect about entering into and creating high-risk situations, out of a sense of self-preservation, if nothing else.  With a little advance thought, I can't imagine that they can't successfully serve warrants on even the most depraved criminals in a way that reduces the need for force and risk.

[ChickenSandwich 9959]

47 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

why was your first inclination to justify that coward's actions? 

"well, he's just angry from all the sustained rioting and looting that's going on* and he's lashing out...it's going to continue to happen as people get fed up with all the sustained rioting and looting going on**'

*there is no sustained rioting and looting going on

**there is no sustained rioting and looting going on

I was not up to date on that individuals hateful rhetoric. Mea culpa 

[hobbes2702 13478]

18 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

If you look at first world murder rates we fall down that list.

Re: Ending the war on drugs.  Where do you draw the line?  Opoid addiction is a serious problem in this country.  Same with meth.

Then you treat drugs for what they are, a healthcare problem, not a law enforcement problem 

[VABuckeye 2481]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Then you treat drugs for what they are, a healthcare problem, not a law enforcement problem 

So you don't see legalizing all drugs as making that problem worse?  We already know that drug addiction in many cases leads to more crime.

I'm just spitballing here.  I recognize that law enforcement is a problem in our country as is drug addiction and the crime related to drug addiction.  Making it legal doesn't put money in the addicts pocket to purchase drugs.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

So has ending civil asset forfeiture been listed in any of the demands of protestors? Because it should be.

[TwiceHorn 32079]

Also worthy of consideration.  As far as I know, the police often are reactive, not proactive.  They don't often stop crimes in progress, they come after the fact.  It even appears that sometimes their appearance on an active crime scene may escalate things.

So their crime deterrent value is "psychological" more than real.  And, as we get deeper into the psychology and sociology of criminals, we know that psychological deterrence really isn't much of a thing.  Crimes are typically committed by the desperate and the impaired, to include socio- and psychopaths; all people not famous for weighing out the consequences of their actions.  The one area where it is a thing, though, is certainty of apprehension.  So fewer cops may mean less likelihood of apprehension.  But again, apprehension is probably more often accomplished by investigation rather than real-time intervention.

So this idea of vast numbers of cops, projecting force into the neighborhoods, may be pretty highly overrated.

[BabaYaga 15625]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We have someone here repeating the narrative over and over that the protests are just "rioting and looters."  That narrative is 100% driven from somewhere.  And it's false.  This is a current event, and that lie is a huge damned problem and yes, it's glaringly obvious where it's coming from.

I marched yesterday with thousands of people....some harsh words were spoken.  Some strong demands were made.  There was no violence.  No rioting.  No looting.  Millions of people did likewise this weekend. But that is entirely dismissed for a narrative of an ongoing event that is false.  That's a pretty big fucking problem.

No, that's what you read.  Go back and actually read the post - it was about fatigue from riots that had been following peaceful protests....which was the case early on.  Then a Mea Culpa that they have in fact gone down dramatically - which everyone agrees is a fabulous thing.  That is the current event.

As for marching.  Good for you.  Doesn't mean someone that has an opinion that may differ slightly from yours is a partisan hack and  then of course you INSTANTLY devolve to partisan lines.  This is the political fuckery we need less of.  

[TwiceHorn 32079]

5 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

So you don't see legalizing all drugs as making that problem worse?  We already know that drug addiction in many cases leads to more crime.

I'm just spitballing here.  I recognize that law enforcement is a problem in our country as is drug addiction and the crime related to drug addiction.  Making it legal doesn't put money in the addicts pocket to purchase drugs.

Drug addiction is a demand-side problem, not a supply-side problem.  You more than likely are not going to see an increase in addiction if drugs are legalized and thus, ostensibly, easier and cheaper to obtain.  That has certainly been the case in legalizing jurisdictions such as Portugal.

Do you honestly think the war on drugs curtails the supply of drugs sufficiently to limit the number of addicts?

Because it is a demand-side problem it is a health problem.

Edited June 8, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[BabaYaga 15625]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also worthy of consideration.  As far as I know, the police often are reactive, not proactive.  They don't often stop crimes in progress, they come after the fact.  It even appears that sometimes their appearance on an active crime scene may escalate things.

So their crime deterrent value is "psychological" more than real.  And, as we get deeper into the psychology and sociology of criminals, we know that psychological deterrence really isn't much of a thing.  Crimes are typically committed by the desperate and the impaired, to include socio- and psychopaths; all people not famous for weighing out the consequences of their actions.  The one area where it is a thing, though, is certainty of apprehension.  So fewer cops may mean less likelihood of apprehension.  But again, apprehension is probably more often accomplished by investigation rather than real-time intervention.

So this idea of vast numbers of cops, projecting force into the neighborhoods, may be pretty highly overrated.

This is a good example analyzing the efficacy of the broken-window theory.  A proactive approach in it'w own right (as much as you have have one).  I disagree crimes are typically committed by the desperate and impaired.  I think most are crimes of opportunity.  Thus a reduction in the number of LE's would correlate to a spike in crime rates in major metropolitan areas - also correlating to polling that people actually living in these areas (which is generally none of us fuck-wads pontificating about it) want MORE police.  Not less.  

[John Lawrence 244]

Haven't certain countries legalized most drugs and focused on treatment?  And addiction rates have dropped (along with all the other benefits of legalization)?

Wasn't Portugal one?  It certainly seems more humane.

We have lost the war on drugs.  And created a massive black market with all the attendant criminal organizations/violence.  Time to wave the white flag.