How would you rank these point guards?

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Got into an interesting debate at poker last night, that nobody could seem to agree on. I don't even know how it was brought up, but rank these pgs. You can use stats, but just use that as a piece of the puzzle. I'm asking, if you were building a team and you could have any of these guys in the prime of their career, how would you rank them...

 

Steve Nash

CP3

Jason Kidd

Gary Payton

John Stockton

 

I'm too young to have really seen Payton or Stockton, but  have a pretty firm opinion on the top 3. Curious to know what some of ya'll think.

Also, I realize this is probably a waste of space thread because it's impossible to compare with all things equal blah blah blah. I don't care haha. Trying to settle a friendly debate because IMO there were some loud wrong opinions last night. 

[TommyGufano 6021]

So if I understand the question, this is more about each player's peak than their career. Obviously team composition would change some of this. If I need someone to shoulder a heavy scoring load: Nash, Payton and CP3 better fill that role than the others. 

It's a shame Jason Kidd, very good 3pt shooter, doesn't really align with his prime. Think that would add some clarity for me.

My brain's list:

CP3 (surprises me)

Kidd

Payton

Nash

Stockton

 

My gut's list:

Nash

Kidd

Payton

CP3

Stockton

 

[Kermit 3156]

God, this is a lot harder than I thought it would be. I’m just going to pick by gut.

1. Jason Kidd 

2. Stockton

3. Chris Paul

4. Gary Payton

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5. Steve Nash

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

25 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

So if I understand the question, this is more about each player's peak than their career. Obviously team composition would change some of this. If I need someone to shoulder a heavy scoring load: Nash, Payton and CP3 better fill that role than the others. 

It's a shame Jason Kidd, very good 3pt shooter, doesn't really align with his prime. Think that would add some clarity for me.

My brain's list:

CP3 (surprises me)

Kidd

Payton

Nash

Stockton

 

My gut's list:

Nash

Kidd

Payton

CP3

Stockton

 

Exactly. I’m not necessarily saying who had the better career. I’m saying, when they were in their prime at their best, and you could take the very best version of each player, how would you rank them.

 

like I said, never really saw Stockton or Payton in their prime, so for me, this question was more about the top 3 that I listed in my OP (and how i feel like one of the players, the one i think might’ve had the best prime, was getting severely underrated by the poker table last night).But i did throw in Stockton and Payton because I was curious since I’m assuming most of y’all saw all players in their primes. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[sheeeit 129]

Tough one. Good arguments can be made for all of them.  If we are talking 2020 NBA where 3’s are hyper valued and it is necessary for point guards to create their own shots I would say:

nash, cp3, payton, stock, kidd 

 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

42 minutes ago, Kermit said:

God, this is a lot harder than I thought it would be. I’m just going to pick by gut.

1. Jason Kidd 

2. Stockton

3. Chris Paul

4. Gary Payton

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5. Steve Nash

Ok, I gotta respond to this one because this is how the discussion started. I’ve been pretty open about my dislike for CP3. He’s one of my least favorite basketball players ever. But prime Chris Paul (last part of his time with the hornets and then with the clippers) is easily one of the best point guards I’ve ever seen. A few people laughed in my face. I asked, “so would you say Steve Nash was better than CP3” and there was almost an overwhelming consensus of “yes, he’s definitely better than CP3.”

I respect Nash, and i never had a problem with him as a player. I always loved watching him play. I personally think CP3 was better in his prime, and I don’t think it’s that close TBH. I think CP3 might be better than Kidd too, but that one is more debatable IMO. But when the entire room said both were clearly better than CP3, i felt like i was taking crazy pills. They say the MVPs are the difference, but I’ve always felt like those MVPs were kinda BS. Like, Nash was the most valuable because of D’antoni’s system, but at no point did anyone confuse Nash for being the best player in the league. They were talking about those MVPs last night like he was the best player in the league those two years 

Edited May 27, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[TommyGufano 6021]

4 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Ok, I gotta respond to this one because this is how the discussion started. I’ve been pretty open about my dislike for CP3. He’s one of my least favorite basketball players ever. But prime Chris Paul (last part of his time with the hornets and then with the clippers) is easily one of the best point guards I’ve ever seen. A few people laughed in my face. I asked, “so would you say Steve Nash was better than CP3” and there was almost an overwhelming consensus of “yes, he’s definitely better than CP3.”

I respect Nash, and i never had a problem with him as a player. I always loved watching him play. I personally think CP3 was better in his prime, and I don’t think it’s that close TBH. I think CP3 might be better than Kidd too, but that one is more debatable IMO. But when the entire room said both were clearly better than CP3, i felt like i was taking crazy pills. They say the MVPs are the difference, but I’ve always felt like those MVPs were kinda BS. Like, Nash was the most valuable because of D’antoni’s system, but at no point did anyone confuse Nash for being the best player in the league. They were talking about those MVPs last night like he was the best player in the league those two years 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

List from 2016 and only 1 PG being discussed in this thread could have improved their stock since then (admittedly not necessarily a ranking of the primes in the article). But here's some ammunition for you

[Kermit 3156]

Nash is amazing in that offensive system, but he’s one of the worst goddamn defensive players I’ve seen in my life. The rest of them are so completely well rounded. Plus, you know, fuck Steve Nash. 

[StruggleBus 3922]

Stockton
Nash
Kidd
Payton
CP3

Also fuck Steve Nash

[Dbeasy 15049]

I dislike them all if I were starting a team. How many titles does this list have?

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

4 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I dislike them all if I were starting a team. How many titles does this list have?

I mean, all 5 are sure fire hall of famers. Are we really playing this game lol? 

[WJC88 97]

Payton

CP3

Kidd

Stockton

Nash

But the answer is Isiah Thomas.  He was better than all those guys.  

 

[aggie08 21504]

5 minutes ago, WJC88 said:

Payton

CP3

Kidd

Stockton

Nash

But the answer is Isiah Thomas.  He was better than all those guys.  

 

I mean, that's kind of the point. Who's the "next best" after the obvious Top 4 of Magic, Steph, Oscar, and Isiah.

[HookEm 2467]

Back a few years ago I created a spreadsheet that give points for various NBA accomplishments in an effort to determine the GOAT.  It is also useful for situations like this.  It gives points for role in NBA titles, career place in various stats, All-Star appearances, etc. 

Take a look and see what you think about categories and weightings (row 1)

NBA Goat Sheet

According to my sheet (which is for career accomplishments), it goes:

1. Jason Kidd (28)

2. John Stockton (30)

3. Gary Payton (33)

5. Chris Paul (38)

4. Nash (39)

If you are talking single year, I go with Gary Payton. That dude was a junkyard dog and could lock down 1-3, all while getting his own buckets.  

 

Best year (by MVP voting):

Payton ----- 19.2 pts, 8.3 ast, 4.6 reb, 2.3 stl, 2.8 TO, 0.453 FG, 0.744 FT - #3 MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All defense (97-98)

Kidd --------- 14.7 pts, 9.9 ast, 7.3 reb, 2.1 stl, 3.5 TO, 0.391 FG, 0.814 FT - #2 MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All defense (01-02)

Stockton -- 17.1 pts, 13.6 ast, 3.0 reb, 3.2 stl, 3.8 TO, 0.538 FG, 0.863 FT - #8 MVP voting, 2nd team All-NBA, 2nd team All defense (88-89)

Paul --------- 21.1 pts, 11.6 ast, 4.0 reb, 2.7 stl, 2.5 TO, 0.488 FG, 0.851 FT - #2 MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All defense (07-08)

Nash --------18.8 pts, 10.5 ast, 4.2 reb, 0.8 stl, 3.5 TO, 0.512 FG, 0.921 FT -  NBA MVP, 1st team All-NBA (05-06)

Edited May 27, 2020 by HookEm

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

7 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I mean, that's kind of the point. Who's the "next best" after the obvious Top 4 of Magic, Steph, Oscar, and Isiah.

That is exactly what I was getting at. There’s a clear and obvious top 4 point guards, in no particular order. That is tier 1. I consider this to be at least some of the 2nd tier. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 hour ago, TommyGufano said:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

List from 2016 and only 1 PG being discussed in this thread could have improved their stock since then (admittedly not necessarily a ranking of the primes in the article). But here's some ammunition for you

Well damn they’re a lot higher on Stockton than I would’ve expected, but I was also 6 when Stockton was in the finals against Jordan in his prime...

Edited May 27, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[gsoda3 3260]

really depends on who you have around them and what era you're playing in, but in a vacuum...

 

payton

kidd

cp3

....

stockton

nash

 

 

i value defense.  especially defensive versatility.  maybe i've got stock ranked unfairly low, maybe he was a product of his time (offensively).  

[Harrison Stafford 3335]

Stockton was a terrific defensive player as a 5x NBA All-Defensive Second Teamer.  However, there's a reason Karl Malone is the second leading scorer in NBA history.

Stockton

CP3

Nash

Kidd

Payton

 

 

[Kermit 3156]

3 hours ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Stockton was a terrific defensive player as a 5x NBA All-Defensive Second Teamer.  However, there's a reason Karl Malone is the second leading scorer in NBA history.

Stockton

CP3

Nash

Kidd

Payton

 

 

Malone scored on everything that was 13 or older.

[Tylerocks 2553]

A case can be made for any one of those guys, and yes, system and surrounding cast would factor in.

I'm leaning towards Payton as my PG1.  

As much as I hate Stockton as a Rockets fan, he was damn good.  Dirty as a MF'er, but damn good.  My hate for him prevents him from being on my team.

 

[Errestaurants 2570]

Stockton was damn good on defense and underrated offensely.  Payton for me out of this group. He could do what CP3 and Nash could do on offense but was the "glove" on defense. Payton and Kidd are a wash on defense but Payton was more dynamic on offense.

Payton

Stockton

KIdd

CP3

Nash

[Michael Knight 12977]

CP3

Stockton

Nash

KIdd

Payton

[Dbeasy 15049]

I mean, that's kind of the point. Who's the "next best" after the obvious Top 4 of Magic, Steph, Oscar, and Isiah.

You mean also after Johnny Moore, Avery Johnson and Tony Parker of course.

[Patrick Bateman 3913]

On 5/27/2020 at 1:43 PM, gsoda3 said:

really depends on who you have around them and what era you're playing in, but in a vacuum...

 

payton

kidd

cp3

....

stockton

nash

 

 

i value defense.  especially defensive versatility.  maybe i've got stock ranked unfairly low, maybe he was a product of his time (offensively).  

Era means so much..... the game has changed so much since Stockton and Payton were in their primes (worst modern offensive era of basketball) to Kidd (transition of eras) to CP3 and Nash, who are playing in a much better offensive era.  Really tough to judge but I like your rankings a lot.  Defense matters and only Payton and Kidd could not only guard their positions well, but other wings with a great degree of success.  CP3 will try on defense and do his best not to give up ground or get dominated in the post, but sometimes, physics wins.  Stockton and Nash were pretty much turnstiles, although Stockton was one of the better offside thieves.  Without knowing how a potential team is put together, the Glove and Kidd give you many more options from an offensive and defensive integration.  Nash and to some degree Stockton really need specific system to get to the other's level.  Still good players, but need more help to get to that upper echelon level.

 

 

 

[KingBobo81 535]

Stockton is the NBA career leader in assists (arguably one of the records that will last the longest in the history of the league) and steals. Aside from one season, the dude hardly ever missed a game. If you ranked him last on this list, you probably were born after 1990.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[0xdeadbeef 1651]

4 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Era means so much..... the game has changed so much since Stockton and Payton were in their primes (worst modern offensive era of basketball) to Kidd (transition of eras) to CP3 and Nash, who are playing in a much better offensive era.  Really tough to judge but I like your rankings a lot.  Defense matters and only Payton and Kidd could not only guard their positions well, but other wings with a great degree of success.  CP3 will try on defense and do his best not to give up ground or get dominated in the post, but sometimes, physics wins.  Stockton and Nash were pretty much turnstiles, although Stockton was one of the better offside thieves.  Without knowing how a potential team is put together, the Glove and Kidd give you many more options from an offensive and defensive integration.  Nash and to some degree Stockton really need specific system to get to the other's level.  Still good players, but need more help to get to that upper echelon level.

 

 

 

While Stockton was clearly not a 'drive to the basket' kinda guy, the only 'specific system' he needed was the Pick-and-Roll.   That's not so much a system as it is basic fundamental basketball.   Yes, Malone was the other half of that 2-man game most of the time, but Stockton showed time and again that he could run it with any competent player. Stockton is #1 on the all-time Assists board, he's also #2 on the all-time Assists-per-game behind only Magic.   Of the players listed here, I'd put Stockton a mile ahead of the others.

1. Stockton

2. Kidd - a distant second

3-5. Payton, Nash, CP3  - a 3-way tie close behind Kidd.

 

 

 

      

[FondrenRoad 4378]

Since its a PG question, the rest of the team matters. 

Blind, I go:

Stockton, Payton, Kidd, Paul, Nash

But I'm assuming my team has 2 better scorers than my PG.  

If I need my PG to shoulder some or all of the scoring load:

Paul, Payton, Nash, Stockton, Kidd

[Iceman 2705]

On 5/27/2020 at 12:38 PM, WJC88 said:

Payton

CP3

Kidd

Stockton

Nash

But the answer is Isiah Thomas.  He was better than all those guys.  

 

He'd have no teammates though, 'cept for Laimbeer.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18549]

7 hours ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

While Stockton was clearly not a 'drive to the basket' kinda guy, the only 'specific system' he needed was the Pick-and-Roll.   That's not so much a system as it is basic fundamental basketball.   Yes, Malone was the other half of that 2-man game most of the time, but Stockton showed time and again that he could run it with any competent player. Stockton is #1 on the all-time Assists board, he's also #2 on the all-time Assists-per-game behind only Magic.   Of the players listed here, I'd put Stockton a mile ahead of the others.

1. Stockton

2. Kidd - a distant second

3-5. Payton, Nash, CP3  - a 3-way tie close behind Kidd.

Are you kidding me? The Jazz were the most system-based team in the NBA. They ran the same shit for years and years under Jerry Sloan. I mean, they ran it into the fucking ground. I always likened Stockton to an air-raid system QB with inflated stats - great numbers, but how much was him and how much was the system he was in? And you can't discount Karl Malone's impact on his success. Not only was it like the air raid, it was like running the air raid with Earl Campbell as his running back. And never forget that Stockton was one of the dirtiest, cheap shot motherfuckers to ever lace up a pair of sneakers. Fuck John Stockton. 

My list:

Kidd, Paul, Payton, Stockton, Nash.

 

[Underdog 28627]

Stockton

Kidd

Fuck the other 3, Nash always playing with his hair bothered me.  

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

If I’m ranking the ones I’ve seen, I’m going

CP3

Kidd 

 

 

 

Nash 

 

When Kidd was on the Nets I thought he was a fucking magician, but CP3 from like 07-14 was scary. Both could play above average defense IMO. Nash was a flat out liability defensively, so that has to count for something. 
 

It’s interesting seeing the mixed opinions on Stockton and Payton and how they compare to the other 3 guys. 

[KingBobo81 535]

6 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Are you kidding me? The Jazz were the most system-based team in the NBA. They ran the same shit for years and years under Jerry Sloan. I mean, they ran it into the fucking ground. I always likened Stockton to an air-raid system QB with inflated stats - great numbers, but how much was him and how much was the system he was in? And you can't discount Karl Malone's impact on his success. Not only was it like the air raid, it was like running the air raid with Earl Campbell as his running back. And never forget that Stockton was one of the dirtiest, cheap shot motherfuckers to ever lace up a pair of sneakers. Fuck John Stockton. 

My list:

Kidd, Paul, Payton, Stockton, Nash.

 

I think your personal hatred is really skewing your opinion as to how great of a passer he actually was. Comparing him to a Texas Tech QB system QB is just plain stupid. He was one of, if not, the best ever at it (maybe putting Magic or Nash in his prime in the argument).

 

Stockton passing highlights

Edited May 29, 2020 by KingBobo81

[Mitch Cumsteen 18549]

5 minutes ago, KingBobo81 said:

I think your personal hatred is really skewing how great of a passer he actually was. Comparing him to a Texas Tech QB system QB is just plain stupid.

 

Stockton passing highlights

90% of his assists were dumping it down to Karl Malone after he road graded some poor bastard that he outweighed by 100 lbs into the third row. 

I actually looked at John Stockton highlights before I made my post, trying to remind myself if there was something that I missed or had forgotten. The one thing I will say is that he was probably the best ever at passing with his off hand off the dribble. Those are impressive, but Stockton played for 1000 years and had almost 16,000 assists and those were the best highlights they could find? Fuck the numbers. Watch this Jason Kidd reel and tell me that John Stockton was a better passer.

 

[Iceman 2705]

46 minutes ago, KingBobo81 said:

I think your personal hatred is really skewing your opinion as to how great of a passer he actually was. Comparing him to a Texas Tech QB system QB is just plain stupid. He was one of, if not, the best ever at it (maybe putting Magic or Nash in his prime in the argument).

 

Stockton passing highlights

The system created all of those steals too...LOLz.

 

Dem system QBs are the future( and present) of the NFL, as well.

[KingBobo81 535]

Stockton was a god damn career 50 percent system shooter too! Must have been all Jerry Sloan and Karl Malone too.

23 years ago today, he hit the buzzer beater against the Rockets to send the Jazz to the finals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mdhorn 5949]

CP3 had the more rounded game and is/was lightning quick, Payton was a great defender and gets props for this even though Nash could probably score at will and was pretty unstoppable offensively, Stockton ran the pick and roll but didn't strike fear in anyone--that was Malone.  Stockton wasn't as quick as any of the other guys on this list.  Kidd could rebound unlike any on this list and was a great defender and could see the floor well, but offensively, he was never consistent as a scorer.  If you left the others on that list open, they'd drain the shot.   This is just the list given though.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Mdhorn

[Mole 4333]

I probably am biased based on who was big when I was a kid, but:

Payton

Stockton

CP3

Kidd

Nash

[Goo Punch 4275]

6 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Steph is a PG like AI was a PG and doesn’t belong in this conversation. Before you think I’m denigrating him I’m not - his career rank when he’s done will probably exceed all the players mentioned with the exception of (maybe) Magic. I think the Top 5 of all time is

1. Magic

2. O

3. Stockton

4. Zeke

5. Not sure. I’d probably put Paul here. 

I’m a huge Mavs fan and Nash and Kidd has large swaths of their careers where they were ineffective (Nash) or didn’t put up numbers (Kidd). They are both greats, and I like them, but they don’t belong on this list, and at bottom of list in response to OP’s question. 

wrong. wrong. AI was a volume scoring guard who happened to play PG; Steph is a PG who happens to be able to fill it up. Terrible analogy, as usual Rex. It's so fucking annoying/pathetic that you *know* that you don't have a goddamn clue what you're talking about, and yet you still choose to stroll up into a million different threads like you're the authority on the subject. just stop posting about sports. you're pathological.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Goo Punch

[Bevo 13577]

On 5/29/2020 at 5:08 PM, Mitch Cumsteen said:

90% of his assists were dumping it down to Karl Malone after he road graded some poor bastard that he outweighed by 100 lbs into the third row. 

I actually looked at John Stockton highlights before I made my post, trying to remind myself if there was something that I missed or had forgotten. The one thing I will say is that he was probably the best ever at passing with his off hand off the dribble. Those are impressive, but Stockton played for 1000 years and had almost 16,000 assists and those were the best highlights they could find? Fuck the numbers. Watch this Jason Kidd reel and tell me that John Stockton was a better passer.

 

Kidd IMO was way overrated. He always tried to make the highlight pass instead of keeping it simple. Stockton would just put the ball in the right place for his teammates. He was always in control. Personally, I don't think the comparison is even close on offense . However, Kidd was a better defender and rebounder.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Bevo

[Brothahorn 10087]

One thing is for sure Kidd is the better rapper.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Brothahorn

[Kermit 3156]

This thread is about to get infinitely more interesting.

[ztejas 43425]

If we're going by peak it's CP3 and it's not even close. In 2008 Paul was at worst the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron. In 2009 he was just as good but Kobe was probably more impactful down the line. None of those other guys ever reached that level. It's a fucking joke that Nash has 2 MVPs. 

If we're going by career then I would take Stockton. 

I'll meet it in the middle and try and rank by 5-6 year prime. 

CP3 and Stockton is close. CP3 is probably the slightly better defender, better rebounder and scorer. Stockton was a better passer and seems like he was a better leader/less of a primadonna cunt. He also played every game every year while Paul has always been injury prone. 

The rest is easy. Payton edges Nash for me as he had a more complete game and the defense is too much to ignore. One is a top 3 defender at his position ever, one was absolutely awful. 

Kidd was never a great player and is clearly 5th. I guess he was entertaining and played on some pretty good teams in the early 2000s, but he strikes me as chronically overrated just like Iverson (although AI was a little better). Basically any metric will tell you as much. 

So looking at best, consistent stretch of elite play, I'd go

Stockton

Paul

Payton

Nash 

Kidd 

[Braff Zacklin 13568]

9 minutes ago, Kermit said:

This thread is about to get infinitely more interesting.

LoL you fucker. Not sure if "interesting" is the adjective I'd use.

[ztejas 43425]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Agreed with your rankings upon review of Paul and Payton career stats. 

Yeah I repped you because ours were the same but with Paul and Payton swapped. I looked at everyone's box stats and advanced stats. It's honestly hard not to put Paul first but he's been so often hamstrung and I've just never gotten the vibe that he's a championship teammate. He did fuck the Spurs that one year though. That was probably his best playoff series ever. 

[Kermit 3156]

11 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Yeah I repped you because ours were the same but with Paul and Payton swapped. I looked at everyone's box stats and advanced stats. It's honestly hard not to put Paul first but he's been so often hamstrung and I've just never gotten the vibe that he's a championship teammate. He did fuck the Spurs that one year though. That was probably his best playoff series ever. 

His 2008 run was better. He was incredible that year on the playoffs and it took everything the Spurs had to put him away. Then that fucked up flight and Joey Crawford killed any chance they had of beating the Lakers. 
 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Kermit

[Goo Punch 4275]

9 minutes ago, Braff Zacklin said:

LoL you fucker. Not sure if "interesting" is the adjective I'd use.

last night I was drunk, and angry. that said, here in the sober light of day I'm still completely tired of seeing Rex everywhere I go, opining on shit that he is completely clueless about as if he were actually an expert, and/or just saying indefensibly stupid/uninformed shit. last night was the first time that I responded to him "with a bazooka" as he put it, but he's been deserving of the bazooka treatment for a hot minute now. here's the last three things I've seen Rex posting about:

1-About 8 posts in a row blaming Ahmaud Arbery for his own murder. Seriously. The literal stupidest shit I've ever seen posted. Didn't respond to him once, because what the fuck is the point of even arguing with that type of idiocy?

2-Emphatically claiming that Wayne Gretzky is nowhere near as clear of a GOAT in his sport as MJ is in his, when in fact the exact opposite is true. He *knows* that he doesn't know a single fucking thing about Wayne Gretzky, but will that stop him from acting like he's a Gretzky biographer? nope. I politely corrected him this time. 

3- "Steph Curry is a PG the same way Allen Iverson was a PG." Again, not just factually wrong, but completely fucking stupid. Only someone who has absolutely no clue what he's talking about could even type that out and post it, but again, that has never stopped Rex. It's a completely lazy and uninformed take. Steph Curry, a point guard, isn't a PG in Rex's mind because all Rex knows about him is that he scores a lot. I can't wait for Rex's take on how Lamar Jackson is a QB the same way Ronnie Brown was in Miami since they both are good at running. 

I regret nothing and apologize for nothing. Rex sucks dicks for quarters, which is normally fine when he's not frequenting the same threads as I do. This last week+ of having to listen to his uninformed and retarded takes is only making the present even worse than it already is. 

And Rex, I'm not being mean as I "disagree with you", you are saying factually incorrect and stupid shit and I am insulting you for it. Big difference. 

[Michael Knight 12977]

look fuck john stockton and fuck the fucking utah jazz. but hes probably the 3rd greatest PG of all time

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

If we're going by peak it's CP3 and it's not even close. In 2008 Paul was at worst the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron. In 2009 he was just as good but Kobe was probably more impactful down the line. None of those other guys ever reached that level. It's a fucking joke that Nash has 2 MVPs. 

If we're going by career then I would take Stockton. 

I'll meet it in the middle and try and rank by 5-6 year prime. 

CP3 and Stockton is close. CP3 is probably the slightly better defender, better rebounder and scorer. Stockton was a better passer and seems like he was a better leader/less of a primadonna cunt. He also played every game every year while Paul has always been injury prone. 

The rest is easy. Payton edges Nash for me as he had a more complete game and the defense is too much to ignore. One is a top 3 defender at his position ever, one was absolutely awful. 

Kidd was never a great player and is clearly 5th. I guess he was entertaining and played on some pretty good teams in the early 2000s, but he strikes me as chronically overrated just like Iverson (although AI was a little better). Basically any metric will tell you as much. 

So looking at best, consistent stretch of elite play, I'd go

Stockton

Paul

Payton

Nash 

Kidd 

I feel like you might be underselling 02-04 Jason Kidd on the Nets, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this version of Kidd wasn’t as good as I remembered. I thought he was pretty special on the Nets 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18549]

On 5/30/2020 at 8:22 PM, Bevo said:

Kidd IMO was way overrated. He always tried to make the highlight pass instead of keeping it simple. Stockton would just put the ball in the right place for his teammates. He was always in control. Personally, I don't think the comparison is even close on offense . However, Kidd was a better defender and rebounder.

Stockton = always in control. Kidd = always tried to make the highlight pass. Stockton = coach on the floor? Kidd = better athlete? Seriously?

On 6/1/2020 at 1:10 AM, longhornmatt said:

Stockton may not have explosive highlights, but he shot 52% for his career, led the league in assists 9 years in a row, led the league in steals multiple times, and went to the playoffs like 20 years in a row in a small market.   And I think he helped make Malone more than the other way around.  

There is a reason why Karl Malone won two MVPs and John Stockton didn't win any. There's a reason that John Stockton never once in his career finished higher than Karl Malone in MVP voting. There's a reason Stockton never finished higher than 7th in MVP voting in any single year and Karl Malone finished in the top 5 on 9 separate occasions. Karl Malone was a physical freak of nature. He definitely made Stockton more than the other way around. Pair John Stockton with Vin Baker instead and what does his career look like? Karl Malone was going to be a hall of famer regardless.

If you want to argue stats, I'm going to lose every time in the Stockton v. Kidd debate. But the things that made Kidd such a dynamic and impactful player were the kinds of things that don't show up in the stat sheet. He had such a high basketball IQ and made the game so much easier for his teammates. He would see the game in a way and make plays that very few other players would and could make. His impact on the game could be felt in so many more and different ways than Stockton could ever dream of.

John Stockton was never the best player on his team once in the 1000 seasons that he played. Who was the best player that Kidd ever played with in his prime? Kidd was 37 in 2011 playing with Dirk. And you could argue that even then, he was the second best player on a championship team which is more than you can say about Stockton.

On 5/31/2020 at 1:30 PM, youdunnf'dup said:

I feel like you might be underselling 02-04 Jason Kidd on the Nets, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this version of Kidd wasn’t as good as I remembered. I thought he was pretty special on the Nets 

This. So much this. Who was the second best player on his team? Kenyon Martin? Richard Jefferson? Kerry fucking Kittles? He dragged those dog ass Nets teams to the finals two years in a row and lost to the eventual champion Pistons in a 7 game series the third year. Not one other player on this list can say that they were clearly the best player on a team that went to the finals. None of them. You can make an argument for Payton, but he and Kemp were kinda 1a and 1b.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

14 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

This. So much this. Who was the second best player on his team? Kenyon Martin? Richard Jefferson? Kerry fucking Kittles? He dragged those dog ass Nets teams to the finals two years in a row and lost to the eventual champion Pistons in a 7 game series the third year. Not one other player on this list can say that they were clearly the best player on a team that went to the finals. None of them. You can make an argument for Payton, but he and Kemp were kinda 1a and 1b.

See, that’s how i remember it. I think Kenyon Martin was a borderline allstar but other than that who else was even on those teams? He carried those teams. Maybe I’m biased because Kidd was one of my favorite players as a kid, but there’s no way Nash was better than NJ Nets Kidd IMO.