Minneapolis is Burning

[GRHorn 105]

11 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

wow, after reading that, I've changed my mind. Him being sad is absolutely grounds for a 3rd party extra-judicial murder or two. Why, that young man is a hero! 

 

 

There’s no changing minds here. I’m not dumb.
 

Just shared the first because people that look the other way like Whiggins when things get out of hand bring up insurance. 
 

The second one was just on the same profile and it brought home a bit the impact that these protests/riots are having on innocent bystanders. 

[Brisketexan 105154]

10 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

There’s no changing minds here. I’m not dumb.
 

Just shared the first because people that look the other way like Whiggins when things get out of hand bring up insurance. 
 

The second one was just on the same profile and it brought home a bit the impact that these protests/riots are having on innocent bystanders. 

It's not protests/riots having an effect on innocent bystanders.  There are a jillion --seriously, a metric crapton - of actual protests that start and finish with no violence or destruction.  Then there are riots, which have resulted in harm to people or property.

I don't think anyone on this board, other than perhaps a throwaway comment in anger, has said that they are okay with or support the destruction of property like the restaurant described above.

What several of us HAVE said is that it would be really fucking nice if police departments didn't act like dicks over and over and over, triggering the known and predictable result of violence.  That would be fucking AWESOME.  That way, we'd have both a just society AND no people or property would end up fucked up.

In fact, you and yours regularly post thoughts of "look at who benefits" when you attribute motive (and seek to discredit) some "libtard" favorable action.  So, let's do your little exercise here -- who is benefiting from the violence?  Oppressed minorities? Nope.  Locals who own property?  Nope.  Cops who want the public to totally support them and beg them for protection?  Hmmmm, that's an interesting one.  An alt-right movement that has a vested interest in turning the population against minority causes, and co-opting the forces of the government to assist them in that end?  Gosh, another interesting one.

The only people "winning" as a result of this are the cops who....you can see from the videos, by the way....are HAPPY to stand by and let it happen. What could POSSIBLY be their motivation for refusing to do their jobs, subjecting people to danger caused by bad guys?  It's a mystery, I guess!

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

51 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

 

This is the viewpoint of the restaurant owner.

Do you share his view? I understand his anguish. What a dilemma: defend your livelihood and shoot to kill or walk away and watch it burn.

Is the wrongness of the looting/vandalism to be countered with *more wrong? His business may be in an area where the rent/property tax is low due to the surrounding neighborhood. That can raise his insurance rates though. It can make it difficult for minorities to get loans, buy homes, and create sustainable communities that aren't barren of grocery stores (NOT Dollar Stores), and encourage other SBOs to invest. And as soon as the area shows any type of upward mobility, watch the rents climb, the tenants get kicked out, the homeless go from being invisible to visible. These are not easy cheap fixes to make . Do you think that importing citizens from out of state to walk the streets with weapons is better than Kenosha addressing why its police force are such dipshits? I know the people who live in the communities do not want looting and burning in their neighborhood, but the question is do they want police who selectively enforce the law?

Do you think that restaurant owner and the people protesting should both be turning to the police and saying why are you not actively community policing as a crime and domestic preventative instead of cracking heads and shooting people? I do. (Protesting and looting are not equal actions.) The question then for the community is what forces are the driver for this. My guess is there are several answers to that question.

Do we want the Kenosha Race Massacre? I don't. Tulsa's Greenwood neighborhood has never truly recovered from the burning and killing.

*The actions of the citizen vigilante groups.

Second edit to clarify a pronoun.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
Edit-I left off the last point which is that groups of people who are joining up, arming themselves, and traveling to other states to patrol the streets are terror organizations.

[ultimaton 2981]

Alleged Kenosha Killer Loved Cops, Guns, Trump, and 'Triggering the Libs,' Former Classmates Say

Quote

Some of his classmates joked that he’d be a mass shooter one day. “I personally believe he went to Wisconsin with the intent to kill,” said one former classmate, who asked not to be identified out of fear for their safety.

Quote

Rittenhouse was also known as a “ride or die” Trump supporter. “If you said anything bad about Trump, he’d threaten you,” Joe said.

Quote

“Kyle was the type of kid to wear a MAGA hat or other apparel just for attention, or to “trigger” people,” Joe added.

Quote

“He went to middle school with my little sister and she said that everyone always thought of him to be a possible future shooter,” said Joe, “and so did I when I met him in high school.”

I can think of nothing more emblematic of America right now than reading this article and thinking, "well, at least he didn't shoot up his school".

[Brisketexan 105154]

6 minutes ago, ultimaton said:

I can think of nothing more emblematic of America right now than reading this article and thinking, "well, at least he didn't shoot up his school".

QF fucking awful spot-on truth.

[Continental Op 3934]

If Yoom Nguyen, who owns Lotus Restaurant, puts a bullet in someone fucking up Lotus Restaurant I'm most likely shrugging my shoulders and moving along.  That's quite a bit different than some random dweeb who wants the balls of every cop in the world on his chin bringing a rifle to town to fuck shit up.

[Pescado_Rojo 19421]

37 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

There’s no changing minds here. I’m not dumb.
 

Just shared the first because people that look the other way like Whiggins when things get out of hand bring up insurance. 
 

The second one was just on the same profile and it brought home a bit the impact that these protests/riots are having on innocent bystanders. 

Sure, and if someone had kicked down a locked door and been shot by the restaurant owner, I'd probably be pretty sympathetic to the restaurant owner ...but that's not what happened. What happened was a mother drove a teenage boy across state lines with an assault rifle and he murdered two people and maimed another.

Also, I can't believe the mother hasn't been charged as an accessory or with aiding a fugitive yet. 

[Dirk X West 772]

50 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

There’s no changing minds here. I’m not dumb.

Are you sure?  Because "property damage makes it OK for teenage vigilantes to kill unarmed protesters" is really, really bad take.

[4th&Five 41558]

[Brisketexan 105154]

1 minute ago, 4th&Five said:

This fucking country's fetishization of guns -- and in particular, tricked-out assault weapons -- is fucking psychotic.  Seriously, our national brain is fucking broken.  Do you know in what other countries you see a buncha pictures of kids posing with military hardware, smiling?  Afghanistan, Sudan, Congo....that's some fucked up company we're keeping.

I mean, I guess we should be happy there's not a mag in that rifle, what with the shitty trigger discipline by a kid.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This fucking country's fetishization of guns -- and in particular, tricked-out assault weapons -- is fucking psychotic.  Seriously, our national brain is fucking broken.  Do you know in what other countries you see a buncha pictures of kids posing with military hardware, smiling?  Afghanistan, Sudan, Congo....that's some fucked up company we're keeping.

I mean, I guess we should be happy there's not a mag in that rifle, what with the shitty trigger discipline by a kid.

Brisket, now you know very well that the Great Sage Of Texas, Dan Patrick, said just last year that it is the video games that cause violence. 

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, Dirk X West said:

Are you sure?  Because "property damage makes it OK for teenage vigilantes to kill unarmed protesters" is really, really bad take.

Who said that? Not me. Try again. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

Meet the fam

 

[Cousin Strawberry 1261]

2 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Looking at that lawn, they would have done better to put an edger in his hands.  Thats ghastly.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

Who said that? Not me. Try again. 

No, You didn't say that as far as I am aware.

I would like to put forth something and hope you won't take it as a personal attack as that is not my intent.

What @Brisketexansaid regarding the motive/benefit of the parties involved in these actions is important. I believe this to be complicated and as often is the case, I will probably get it wrong, but spend some time mulling what I write over and then perhaps see if you can see it from a different perspective.

Instead of viewing what happened in Kenosha (or any other city that is going through this) as the smallest possible act: a business/property owner and a looter pull back a little. Now you have a section of a city. Not the suburbs. A city. Perhaps the section is a little run down or a lot. Now pull back further. The entire city. Some people live and work there. Some people work there but live elsewhere. Some people own property there but neither live there or work there. Pull back further and further until the entire nation is in your view.

While protests, riots, looting, and police are nothing new to history, over the last three years there has been talk. Some of that talk has been about the antifascists who have been covered in the media. One particular fellow who is fond of talking about them is Andy Ngo. He isn't the only person, but he is going to be the person to talk about because of his being a little too friendly with certain groups like the Proud Boys. You've probably heard about them. One of the things the Proud Boys like to do is travel to cities and mess with Antifa. One of their spokespeople admitted that one of the reasons they like to do this is to force cities to go bankrupt. Here is a quote:

Quote

“We’ve wasted all their fucking resources to make this rally,” Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio said in video captured during the latest extremist rally held Saturday in Portland. “We want them to waste $2 million and we’ll do it again in two months.” ...The closures cost local restaurants and other businesses an estimated $3 million in revenue, and taxpayers will likely be on the hook for millions more due to the police response, the paper reported. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2019/08/26/proud-boys-leader-admits-point-of-protests-is-to-waste-public-money/

Now, these fellows do this as much for the jollies as they do everything else, but think about that for a minute. Bankrupting cities and forcing taxpayers to cover the costs. How exactly does this benefit them personally? Is it all about owning the libs? For them maybe it is, but what about the big players?

Something that has been dragged across the media over and over again. Oops, wait something that has been highlighted on SPECIFIC media over and over again is the awful cities with their awful crime and their awful Democratic mayors. The President tweeted about it today, even.

Cities are large and they do have some terrible crime. Something important to know is that cities are big, HUGE even so there is some nasty crime. The largest cities do have the largest crime. What is interesting, however, is that the FBI divides the US into four regions. Northeast, Midwest, South, and West. The lowest in all categories was the Midwest as you can imagine. Not too many people live there comparatively. But the region that was number one for violent crime and property crime per 100,000 residents was ....the South. (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/standard-links/region)

The data for the link above is from their website and I couldn't find anything more recent.

Certainly there are large cities in the south, but we are mostly hearing about cities in states like California or Illinois or New York. What is interesting about those large mostly Democratic led cities is that they are also the top ten in something else:

GDP

If you look at the list for the top ten US metro areas for GDP there is a lot of crossover:

1. New York (includes Newark. I'm not going to list every single inclusion in the GMAs)

2. Los Angeles

3. Chicago

4. San Francisco

5. Washington D.C.

6. Dallas

7. Houston

8. Boston

9. Philadelphia

10. Atlanta

New York at number one is over a trillion. Yes, a trillion. That's pretty outstanding. Actually it's freakin amazing. And its real estate is pricey. Very pricey. That is something that many of these large cities have in common. Real estate costs money.

Is there a motive for the police and the alt-right to behave the way they do? I believe there is. But what about the President? We know he wants to get re-elected and those surrounding him that would like to stay on the gravy train keep their positions would like him to get re-elected as well. But what is appealing about bankrupting cities and their residents? What is the motive? What is the result?

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

None of that rant that I posted really addresses the concerns of the SBOs who are facing vandalism, or higher insurance rates, and for that I am sympathetic. But, the economic cost of ignoring the police injustice, systemic indifference to the plight of the middle and lower classes, and racism have been brought about not only by the voters who elected the dumbshits (and here I raise my hand because I was a Republican) but also the leaders themselves who benefit from this. Corporations as people, corporations as 'voters' have enabled legislation designed to disenfranchise all of us, even you.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

The GOP uses deliberate vagueness and implication as a tactic-

In this instance, murder is an appropriate response for property damage while property damage is not an appropriate response for murder.

[Neonmoon 38129]

 

[Nivek 16944]

 

When he was talking about locking up criminals and throwing away the key, I agreed with him. The police need to be deported. Antarctica would do nicely since it is all white.

[WhatTheBuck 28788]

They'd shoot all the penguins.

[Homercles 10206]

Not gonna participate in the shitshow that the Kenosha shooting thread has become in DT...if you want pure, distilled Johnny Sack then go check it out.  I guess the RW talking points are now the kid is a hero for taking out three people who had a criminal history...

I’ve only been a part of this band of assholes since 2012 so I missed a lot of the early years and associated lunatic fringe moments...but for Sack to be told he’s on the wrong side of history by an Aggie poster was eye opening to me.  Those people are real, are wrong, and it is wishful thinking but I hope this country evolves to a point where they are shamed enough to be get out back in their hole. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

28 minutes ago, Homercles said:

  Those people are real, are wrong, and it is wishful thinking but I hope this country evolves to a point where they are shamed enough to be get out back in their hole. 

I haven't quite figured out what creates the mentality. Nature, nurture, etc. It's been around for a long long time. Once photography advanced enough, thus began its increasing exposure to a larger audience whether for approval or condemnation. The crowd shots expose the faces of the participants but not always the story behind the frozen moment in time. Video gives a little extra information but again cannot tell the full account. Everyone fills in the blanks. And here we are.

Idaho has managed to have its own little skirmishes lately, but no fatalities.
 

Quote

 

Boise, Idaho • Authorities on Tuesday arrested anti-government activist Ammon Bundy at the Idaho Statehouse after he refused to leave a meeting room where a few hours earlier angry protesters forced out lawmakers.

Bundy didn't respond to a reporter's shouted questions as he was wheeled into an elevator in a chair he apparently refused to get out of. At least two others were also arrested after police cleared the room, and they also refused to follow police commands to leave. Another person was taken into custody earlier in the same room where protesters shouted down lawmakers.

The incident follows another on Monday when angry protesters forced their way into the Idaho House gallery that had limited seating because of the coronavirus pandemic, the window of a glass door getting shattered as protesters jostled with police. Protesters were ultimately let in when Republican House Speaker Scott Bedke stepped in, seeking to avoid violence.

"I'm not sure precisely what their goal is, but I'm absolutely sure that the two individuals whom I asked to leave were intending to create a scene," he said. "At times in the last 24 to 36 hours, this building has descended into complete chaos, and the only way to make sure that all citizens feel comfortable coming here to be heard is to make sure that we don't allow rule deviations in general."

The committee considering that legislation left the meeting room as at least a dozen Idaho State Police formed a shield between them and the crowd of more than 100.

 

The incident on Monday the article above mentions:
 

Quote

 

BOISE, Idaho (AP) — Angry, maskless spectators forced themselves into the Idaho House special session on the coronavirus pandemic Monday, shattering a glass door, rushing into the gallery that had limited seating because of the virus and forcing lawmakers to ask for calm in a crowd that included a man carrying an assault-style weapon.

After some people shoved their way past Idaho State Police, Republican House Speaker Scott Bedke allowed the gallery to fully open as long as the crowd stopped chanting and was respectful.

 

At the beginning of the month, a man shot at officers and they shot back. They didn't however shoot him 7 times in the back, nor does it mention whether he has a criminal record which apparently determines whether you are supposed to ask for militia help from Illinois. The Sheriff's Office had to issue a press release for the protest against the shooting.
 

Quote

 

NEZPERCE - The Lewis County Sheriff's Office has issued a reminder regarding the planned protest at their office in Nezperce on Saturday, August 1. The protest is in response to an officer involved shooting that involved 52-year-old Sean L. Anderson, of Idaho County, and multiple deputies from the Lewis County office, a deputy of the Idaho County Sheriff’s Office, and a Nez Perce Tribal Officer. The statement reads:

"As a reminder for the rallies taking place in the City of Nezperce tomorrow. We would once again like to ask that all individuals taking part remain respectful of each other’s views, rights, private property, barricades, and signage for restricted areas. We have had a dialog with the organizers of both groups coming to our city, and both have pledged to remain peaceful during their time in our community. Once again, if you are not planning on taking part in the day’s activities we ask that you avoid the area, due to the increased activity and law enforcement presence. We wish all involved a safe day as they express their respective views."

According to Idaho State Police, the incident began with a traffic stop early in the morning of Saturday, July 18, when a Lewis County Deputy stopped a driver on Highway 12 at approximately 2:47 a.m. The driver initially stopped for the deputy but he then drove off which began a pursuit. Other local agencies, including a second Lewis County Deputy, an Idaho County Deputy and an Officer with the Nez Perce Tribal Police assisted in the pursuit. The driver, later identified as 52-year-old Sean L. Anderson, of Idaho County, eventually stopped in a residential area outside of Ferdinand in Idaho County where Anderson is accused of using a shot gun and firing it in the direction of a Lewis County Deputy after which the officers returned fire. None of the officers were injured. Anderson was treated at a Spokane hospital and released last Thursday to Spokane Police to await extradition.

The protest is being led by Mr. Anderson’s supporters and those of Ammon Bundy. Bundy, who led the 2016 occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, is promoting the August 1 "Justice Rally for Sean Anderson" on his Facebook account. In a video message, Bundy accuses the Lewis County Sheriff's Office of not having sufficient cause to initially pull over Anderson, and suggests that officers fired shots on Anderson first, and that Anderson was only firing his weapon in self defense.

 

Business owners in downtown Boise and Lewiston have been complaining that the heavily armed presence of the militia crowds is keeping away business. I read an account from one owner who said that while he appreciated that they are allowed to carry openly, they could at least come in and buy something because after witnessing some of them handling their weapons in a dangerous manner he didn't blame people for staying away.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28788]

1 hour ago, Homercles said:

Those people are real, are wrong, and it is wishful thinking but I hope this country evolves to a point where they are shamed enough to be get out back in their hole. 

Or at least get back under their hoods. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Here is some info about some of the groups. Some has been discussed here and elsewhere:

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/28/portland-violence-far-right-protests-police

If you read the article you will see examples of the violence and property destruction being perpetrated by the right. Again, whatever they accuse you of....

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

2 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/28/portland-violence-far-right-protests-police

If you read the article you will see examples of the violence and property destruction being perpetrated by the right. Again, whatever they accuse you of....

 

Now that I'm not on mobile:

Quote

 

One rightwing protester drew a firearm on opposing protesters. Earlier, he had fired a paintball gun into the crowd, and a local journalist was caught in the crossfire. Others appeared to be armed with firearms and knives. Some carried wooden shields with nails driven through them.

One pro-Trump protester took to a snack van with a baseball bat. Others joined in and destroyed the vehicle.

 

 

But remember, they want to shoot the lefties for destroying property.  

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

That assailant was identified by Bellingcat on Tuesday as Travis Taylor, a Portland-based Proud Boy who has been previously observed attending violent street demonstrations in the city.

In a telephone conversation, Evans told the Guardian that the rightwing demonstrators “absolutely came prepared to fight”, were “very aggressive from the jump” and were equipped with “knives, guns, paintball guns with frozen pellets, batons”.

Neither the Portland police bureau (PPB) nor the Multnomah county district attorney (MCDA) responded to questions about whether Taylor would be charged or prosecuted over the incident.

 

 

@GRHorn, why is it the police, the GOP, and in especially you, don't seem to care one whit about right wing violence?

Keep in mind, I'm just asking questions.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[4th&Five 41558]

Succes

Edited August 28, 2020 by 4th&Five

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Trump casting Portland as some kind of post apocalyptic hell has many denizens of Portland pretty amused.  It also (and I've mentioned this before) reminds me of my Round Rock co-workers who couldn't fathom I raised kids in Austin and didn't own an arsenal.

And again ignore that the recent history of violent protests in Portland has its roots in Trump supporters.

 

Quote

 

It was the worst violence of its kind in the city since an infamous afternoon in 2018, also involving Proud Boys, who came from all over the country to attend a rally that culminated in another vicious street brawl.

But as that precedent indicates, the polarized violence was not so much a new development linked to the massive anti-racism protests that have continued around the US, as a return to the dynamic that has afflicted Portland since the election of Donald Trump.

From 2017 to 2019, the city was a magnet for street protesters and street fighters from groups like Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys, who were regularly met by antifascist counter-protesters.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by MC Fresh Breath

[GRHorn 105]

38 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

@GRHorn, why is it the police, the GOP, and in especially you, don't seem to care one whit about right wing violence?

Keep in mind, I'm just asking questions.

 

I oppose violence on either side. The sad truth is it’s often a tangled mess.
 

It’s an interesting data set. They cite Garrett Foster as one of the vigilante killings. To say it was unjustified at this point is incorrect, unless new info comes to light a month after it happened  

It is also interesting that now HuffPo is putting out a piece about right wing violence. It just happened to come out the day after the Democratic Party decided it needed to come out against violence because of perceived harm it’s doing in the polls. Shocker. They could no longer minimize what’s been going on. It remains to be seen how successful they will be in painting it as a right wing problem. 

[Dirk X West 772]

4 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

It is also interesting that now HuffPo is putting out a piece about right wing violence. It just happened to come out the day after the Democratic Party decided it needed to come out against violence because of perceived harm it’s doing in the polls. Shocker. They could no longer minimize what’s been going on. It remains to be seen how successful they will be in painting it as a right wing problem. 

Various media sources have been posting stories about right wing violence and the threat of right wing violence for the last few years.

[Brisketexan 105154]

1 minute ago, GRHorn said:

I oppose violence on either side. The sad truth is it’s often a tangled mess.
 

It’s an interesting data set. They cite Garrett Foster as one of the vigilante killings. To say it was unjustified at this point is incorrect, unless new info comes to light a month after it happened  

It is also interesting that now HuffPo is putting out a piece about right wing violence. It just happened to come out the day after the Democratic Party decided it needed to come out against violence because of perceived harm it’s doing in the polls. Shocker. They could no longer minimize what’s been going on. It remains to be seen how successful they will be in painting it as a right wing problem. 

Those stories have been out there for months.

You've just ignored them.  30+ people have died in the past several months of unrest -- killed by a variety of circumstances and actors (some accidents, some mayhem, some targeted killings).

But fuck, 22 (mostly) brown people were murdered in minutes by ONE GUY, spouting TRUMP RHETORIC, in El Paso just a year ago.

I get that scared white people are all flipped out that "antifa is going to come to our burbs and hunt us!", but for the rest of us, 1) get the fuck over yourselves, and 2) if true....welcome to the fucking party, pal.

[Brisketexan 105154]

4 minutes ago, Dirk X West said:

Various media sources have been posting stories about right wing violence and the threat of right wing violence for the last few years.

Not the media he follows.  Note the pattern.

[wildcat09 29355]

Trump has directly inspired multiple mass shooters and a mass bomber and GR Horn is like “well isn’t this convenient how the media is trying to distract from all the left wing violence.” Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

2 hours ago, GRHorn said:

I oppose violence on either side. The sad truth is it’s often a tangled mess.
 

It’s an interesting data set. They cite Garrett Foster as one of the vigilante killings. To say it was unjustified at this point is incorrect, unless new info comes to light a month after it happened  

 

Garrett Foster is dead because he pointed a gun at a guy who drove his car into a crowd.

The McCloskeys got a speaking role at the RNC for the same action to, at worse, a fraction of the provocation.

It's a virtual textbook case of a double standard.

[4th&Five 41558]

 

[DDD Dad 14339]

 

(He’s not calling)

[Tuco 5076]

On 6/1/2020 at 5:27 PM, Tuco said:

Where I am at on the killing of Scurlock:

- I agree that it is unlikely that a jury would have returned a guilty conviction.  So, on that front, I am forced to agree with County Attorney Don Kleine.  

- The family's attorney (Justin Wayne, a state senator from North Omaha, but acting only as attorney in this situation) is pushing for it to be turned over to a grand jury.  He argues that the decision to charge was rushed, based on the current tensions. I don't know if I agree with that. 

- The press conference was so fucking tone deaf. Kleine repeatedly referred to the deceased as "Spurlock", even after being corrected.  "Say is his name" is a typical chant in the protests, so the dipshit should make an effort to get that right.  Kleine kept talking about the physical damage from the protest, which he would quickly say that it wasn't relevant.  He made it obvious that he didn't really care about the death of James Spurlock.  It's one thing to call it a tragedy, but to say you don't believe there is a winnable case here.  That isn't what he was saying.  He made a point of criticizing politicians who have commented on the case, which of course makes it obvious that he is paying attention to the politics of the case. He also made a point, twice, to say that the decision was coordinated with police detectives and the chief of police, which is just fucking idiotic considering the amount of rage directed at the cops right now, and they're the ones who will be out there tonight.  I didn't know much about Don Kleine two days ago. I now know he is a fucking idiot who shouldn't be in office. 

Update for those who paid attention to this story out of Omaha. 

The family's attorney was able to push for a grand jury.  It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that the grand jury would not recommend charges.  Yesterday, we heard rumors that the GJ would announce yesterday.  The cops told the business in downtown to close up early, and they set up barricades, in anticipation of a "riot" over a disappointing announcement.  They ended up not announcing until today: manslaughter, terroristic threats, and use of a weapon to commit a felony.  Apparently the shooter had shit on his phone that cast doubt on the self defense plea.  But of course he did. Because it wasn't unanticipated, and he is the kind of guy to talk about how he is going to kill someone. (My speculation.)  

So along away from a verdict.  But the backlash prompted a response, and that response led to a decision to convene a grand jury.  And that grand jury found credible cause to recommend charges.  

[Tuco 5076]

On 9/15/2020 at 7:48 PM, Tuco said:

Update for those who paid attention to this story out of Omaha. 

The family's attorney was able to push for a grand jury.  It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that the grand jury would not recommend charges.  Yesterday, we heard rumors that the GJ would announce yesterday.  The cops told the business in downtown to close up early, and they set up barricades, in anticipation of a "riot" over a disappointing announcement.  They ended up not announcing until today: manslaughter, terroristic threats, and use of a weapon to commit a felony.  Apparently the shooter had shit on his phone that cast doubt on the self defense plea.  But of course he did. Because it wasn't unanticipated, and he is the kind of guy to talk about how he is going to kill someone. (My speculation.)  

So along away from a verdict.  But the backlash prompted a response, and that response led to a decision to convene a grand jury.  And that grand jury found credible cause to recommend charges.  

The bar owner, Jake Gardner, killed himself rather than turning himself in.  

Not the resolution I was expecting, but a resolution none the less. 

[Huckleberry 32985]

Really drives home the point that nobody wins in the current environment where leaders are egging on people with mental health conditions. One of our two national political parties is currently happily courting the mentally unstable (QAnon).

[Brisketexan 105154]

11 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Really drives home the point that nobody wins in the current environment where leaders are egging on people with mental health conditions. One of our two national political parties is currently happily courting the mentally unstable (QAnon).

Dude.....the fucking mentally unstable are an essential element of their base.  Seriously.  If they lost the Qanon lunatic vote, they'd be toast in all but the reddest of red districts and states.

Horrible outcomes like this are the inevitable result of stoking the nuts.  You think the asshole who went and shot up the El Paso Wal-Mart was mentally stable?  The Tree of Life synagogue shooter?  We have a movement that purposefully and with glee pours gasoline on the flame of the mentally unstable -- it is 100% guaranteed that occasionally, that flame will lead to an explosion, costing people's lives.  But, you know, wanna hold on to power, gotta break a few eggs and whatnot.

No winners here.  Only body bags.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Brisketexan

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

https://omaha.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/jake-gardner-shook-up-by-indictment-in-james-scurlocks-death-kills-himself/article_67d6cd0c-049a-5e15-9bf7-d812e212b5cb.html

 

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Now, both men are dead. By the same hand.

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Sunday, Dornan and Monaghan blamed Gardner’s apparent suicide on a cocktail of behavioral health problems stemming from head trauma he experienced during military service; the belief that people were out to kill him; and an “incessant rush to judgment” by social media jockeys.

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Bottom line, Dornan and Monaghan said, Gardner had lost his bars (a landlord ended his lease after the shooting), his home, his livelihood. And he was about to lose his freedom. Add in behavioral health concerns, Dornan said, and suicide was not a surprise, even though his attorneys fully expected him to turn himself in Sunday night. Monaghan said Gardner did not leave a suicide note.

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The deadly turn came after a strange week in which Franklin announced late Tuesday afternoon that the grand jury, which met for a week, had filed four charges against Gardner: manslaughter, attempted first-degree assault, terroristic threats and weapon use. If convicted, Gardner would have faced up to 95 years in prison.

sad, and surprising.  95 years without a murder indictment?

 

[Huckleberry 32985]

"This is a sad day. Our client suffered from numerous mental health issues which affected his ability to think and act rationally. The stress he was feeling recently led to this tragic decision."

"What about the incident he was indicted for? Could his mental health issues have affected that night?"

"Oh no, he was thinking clearly and acting perfectly rationally that night."

[Tuco 5076]

15 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

"This is a sad day. Our client suffered from numerous mental health issues which affected his ability to think and act rationally. The stress he was feeling recently led to this tragic decision."

"What about the incident he was indicted for? Could his mental health issues have affected that night?"

"Oh no, he was thinking clearly and acting perfectly rationally that night."

But this the truly fucked up thing: if I understand the self-defense statute correctly, it wouldn't matter.  The criteria is whether he believed his life was in danger.  It is not whether that perception was justified.  In that scenario, mental illness and racism could be used to support the defense, rather than the prosecution. 

The law needs to be revised.  The way it is currently written, there is considerable overlap between what the shooter perceives and what is justifiable, which allows for considerable space for innocent people getting killed without any legal repercussions.  

[Brisketexan 105154]

2 minutes ago, Tuco said:

But this the truly fucked up thing: if I understand the self-defense statute correctly, it wouldn't matter.  The criteria is whether he believed his life was in danger.  It is not whether that perception was justified.  In that scenario, mental illness and racism could be used to support the defense, rather than the prosecution. 

The law needs to be revised.  The way it is currently written, there is considerable overlap between what the shooter perceives and what is justifiable, which allows for considerable space for innocent people getting killed without any legal repercussions.  

I don't know Nebraska law, but as I understand it in most jurisdictions, it's not whether he ACTUALLY believed he was in danger, it's whether he REASONABLY believed it to be in danger.

E.g., if he shot a black dude walking down the street and claimed self defense because, in accordance with his racist beliefs, all black men are a split second away from murdering him.....that would not be a reasonable belief of danger.  Reasonableness is a necessary component, because that does place an objective metric on it, not just a subjective one.

[Huckleberry 32985]

8 minutes ago, Tuco said:

But this the truly fucked up thing: if I understand the self-defense statute correctly, it wouldn't matter.  The criteria is whether he believed his life was in danger.  It is not whether that perception was justified.  In that scenario, mental illness and racism could be used to support the defense, rather than the prosecution. 

The law needs to be revised.  The way it is currently written, there is considerable overlap between what the shooter perceives and what is justifiable, which allows for considerable space for innocent people getting killed without any legal repercussions.  

Not sure about Nebraska but I thought in most jurisdictions the requirement is that the shooter reasonably believed his life was in danger.

[JimmyJames 12271]

I see GRUHorn has been spewing his bullshit all over this thread defending obvious white supremacists. Sorry I missed it. 

[Tuco 5076]

59 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Not sure about Nebraska but I thought in most jurisdictions the requirement is that the shooter reasonably believed his life was in danger.

I'm going of what the county attorney stated when he initially chose to not press charges, but haven't read the statute itself.  

[GRHorn 105]

Not good