Lets fix the police

[Brisketexan 105,154]

11 hours ago, dcar00 said:

fair enough. so what are you going to do?

1 - listen to the communities most affected and their leaders, and sure as shit not drown out or delegitimize their voices. 

2 - not shut the fuck up or sit the fuck down. We the people need to not go away.

 

3 - hold my elected officials accountable. This is the most consequential thing that can be done. It needs to be a top issue for every council and mayoral candidate.

 

4 - call attention to and work with members of congress to dramatically reduce or even eliminate the defense of qualified immunity for members of law enforcement. It is a defense that had some merit.... it has been so expanded as to constitute near complete immunity with respect to cops. Interestingly, conservative courts like the fifth circuit aren’t NEARLY as generous with the defense when the govt officials AREN’T cops. It’s truly disgusting when contrasted with how much latitude cops get.

 

And a whole lot more.

 

This doesn’t go away. It can’t. That’s what they count on. It needs to suck to be a cop for a long time.

Edited June 1, 2020 by blacklab
moved this to a separate thread since it's important and is filling up the other thread

[Enchubben 5,510]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

1 - listen to the communities most affected and their leaders, and sure as shit not drown out or delegitimize their voices. 

2 - not shut the fuck up or sit the fuck down. We the people need to not go away.

 

3 - hold my elected officials accountable. This is the most consequential thing that can be done. It needs to be a top issue for every council and mayoral candidate.

 

4 - call attention to and work with members of congress to dramatically reduce or even eliminate the defense of qualified immunity for members of law enforcement. It is a defense that had some merit.... it has been so expanded as to constitute near complete immunity with respect to cops. Interestingly, conservative courts like the fifth circuit aren’t NEARLY as generous with the defense when the govt officials AREN’T cops. It’s truly disgusting when contrasted with how much latitude cops get.

 

And a whole lot more.

 

This doesn’t go away. It can’t. That’s what they count on. It needs to suck to be a cop for a long time.

Had me all the way until the very last sentence. That’s bullshit.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,103]

1.  IMO, while there are good cops, a good cop becomes a bad cop when they do not stop bad cops.  My idea for curtailing this is a lot like Brisket's, but goes even further (1.  Have salaries be higher, but bennies lower (especially pensions - make them like the rest of us), 2. I will not say disallow Police unions, but significantly decrease their power and position.  There is a happy medium, but right now the Union has way too much power, 3.  Have pensions be liable when bad cops do shit like this, and the taxpayer will NOT replace those lose dollars, 4.  Those up the chain of command of a bad cop ALSO lose their job and face civil and potentially criminal penalties (negligence in oversight or something like that).  I guarantee if the Captain or Chief's well being on the job is at stake, some shit will change, 5.  Any cops doing shit like Chauvin are fired, charged criminally, and lose all benefits (including vested pension))

2.  The protests need to be more organized.  In NYC, you have to have a permit to march down the road.  A couple of hundred thousand marching down Fifth Ave to City Hall would be much more impactful than what we are seeing now.

3.  Fuck the violence, property damage, and looting.  The folks doing this are, in the vase majority of cases, NOT protestors.  They are far right/left groups who are itching for out and out civil war in the US.  Fuck these people.  Their actions damage the community further.  These fuckers should be held criminally and civilly liable.  And if someone like Trump is instigating (or the equivalent on the far left), fuck them.  Hold them accountable too.  No one should be above the law, and using social media to incite violence is akin to yelling fire in the crowded theater.  

[Sandman 3,403]

37 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

They need better organization with specific end goals. All of these emotional rants don’t convince anyone to change their mind. Most people want the Minnesota cop charged with nothing less than manslaughter. Most people don’t like or trust cops. You destroy your coalition when you create more racial tension in your messaging, and then the militant/criminal faction of your group goes looting, destroying property, beating civilians up, defacing landmarks...

What is the end game? End racism? That is unrealistic and these types of riots and protests only harden the sentiments of racist people, I assume, while also bothering the shit out of a lot of moderates. Is the goal to force all PDs to wear body cams 24/7? That might be doable and lead to more justice after the fact. Is the goal to never preemptively kill a minority again? Is that achieved by less policing in areas with higher crime or with a greater frequency of killed cops who have to keep their gun holstered an extra 10 seconds? Neither of those options seem acceptable, but will gun and drug crime decrease out of solidarity if a new state or federal policy is implemented to force cops to never draw weapons or only at the last second?

Petition for universal body cams and the end to immunity for PDs and individual officers from legal and civil action. Those are tangible goals that could see a tremendous reduction in police brutality. 

I've said for a while now that cops should be unarmed. Too many times they shoot first and (maybe) ask questions later. I just don't trust them to make good decisions with firearms. They need to learn how to defuse situations with critical thinking and by using their words, as we tell small children constantly. They won't be as quick to lord over anyone when they don't have their trusty 9mm sidekick.

[Enchubben 5,510]

53 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

4.  Those up the chain of command of a bad cop ALSO lose their job and face civil and potentially criminal penalties (negligence in oversight or something like that).  I guarantee if the Captain or Chief's well being on the job is at stake, some shit will change

That’s a little tough in practice though right? Do we punish serial killer’s parents for bad upbringing? Even a well trained individuals can make god awful mistakes.

Maybe if it’s something like so many repeated conduct violations of officers within a time frame etc. That combined with mandated body cams and better reporting/analysis of data and oversight should help with accountability.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Enchubben
meant to remove No5. - agreed there.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,103]

2 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

That’s a little tough in practice though right? Do we punish serial killer’s parents for bad upbringing? Even a well trained individuals can make god awful mistakes.

Maybe if it’s something like so many repeated conduct violations of officers within a time frame etc. That combined with mandated body cams and better reporting/analysis of data and oversight should help with accountability.

A parent and child is very different relationship, than a subordinate/supervisor in a professional/semi-professional setting. 

Don't want to potentially lose your livelihood due to the shitty behavior of the people who answer to you, institute training and controls to curb that behavior.  As long as you do that, you don't necessarily lose your livelihood when someone acts badly.  However, letting things go on as they are, fuck you, you are part of the problem.

 

[Murfdogg21 4,413]

29 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I've said for a while now that cops should be unarmed. Too many times they shoot first and (maybe) ask questions later. I just don't trust them to make good decisions with firearms. They need to learn how to defuse situations with critical thinking and by using their words, as we tell small children constantly. They won't be as quick to lord over anyone when they don't have their trusty 9mm sidekick.

LOL should they should make a drug bust or respond to domestic violence or an active shooter situation with words? [/not TeamCop]

[Brisketexan 105,154]

1 hour ago, Spankytoes said:

I think I’ve heard this argument before: Islamic terrorists vs. peaceful Muslims. We’ve just switched parties on the outrage.

Except that one of them - the cops - has it AS THEIR ACTUAL JOB TO STOP CRIMINALS.  These aren't Joe or Muhammad Blow.  They have, as an actual job, STOPPING CRIMES.  And when their buddies commit them.....they let them do so, over and over and over.  So, REALLY big fucking distinction.  Failure to stop criminals means that they are -- follow me here -- BAD AT THEIR ONE JOB.  And they're being bad at their job ON PURPOSE, making a conscious choice to do so.

That means they should no longer have that job, as they are the antithesis of that job. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Enchubben 5,510]

27 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

A parent and child is very different relationship, than a subordinate/supervisor in a professional/semi-professional setting. 

Don't want to potentially lose your livelihood due to the shitty behavior of the people who answer to you, institute training and controls to curb that behavior.  As long as you do that, you don't necessarily lose your livelihood when someone acts badly.  However, letting things go on as they are, fuck you, you are part of the problem.

 

No not all - and i agree with the sentiment. Just looking at it practically. Good people sometimes have bad people working underneath them and it's not always apparent until the bad act occurs. I can teach people underneath me all day long how to do their job correctly, and the minute one steps away, they act/work independently. If they screw up, that's an indictment of them right?  Now if I continue to put this in a position to make mistakes, or have multiple people making those mistakes, that indicates bad leadership or poor training and I am 100% on board with taking it up the chain. 

I don't think we necessarily disagree on the idea of severe accountability changes, just trying to think through it practically. I also like the idea of higher base salaries and increased use of fines/penalties for bad actions that maybe don't meet the threshold for firing/criminal penalties.

[Captainant 27,680]

25 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

LOL should they should make a drug bust or respond to domestic violence or an active shooter situation with words? [/not TeamCop]

Well they've been doing such a good job with their no knock raids lately...

[Iceman 2,716]

48 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

A parent and child is very different relationship, than a subordinate/supervisor in a professional/semi-professional setting. 

Don't want to potentially lose your livelihood due to the shitty behavior of the people who answer to you, institute training and controls to curb that behavior.  As long as you do that, you don't necessarily lose your livelihood when someone acts badly.  However, letting things go on as they are, fuck you, you are part of the problem.

 

Yep.  Happens in the military all the time. As a leader, you’re not held personally liable for a subordinate’s idiocy/ bad judgment; but your processes and expectations had better be consistently demonstrated by you and known by your charges.  
 

It isn’t difficult.  

[BabaYaga 15,301]

2 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Had me all the way until the very last sentence. That’s bullshit.

No shit.  It does suck to be a cop.  It's become as almost impossible job.  A profession you are going to start seeing less and less of.  You want real violence and unrest.  Watch all the LEs leave.  You'll get your wish.

[mdmost 43,004]

Yeah, accountability really sucks. 

[BabaYaga 15,301]

3 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Yeah, accountability really sucks. 

I know personally a number of LEs.  APD.  DPD (x2), and a SWAT officer in AL.  To a man, they all agree 100% that these shitbirds murdered that man and need to be jailed.  Unless I'm missing something, I see almost no LEs defending the actions of the officers.  A knee on the back is a transition move to hold them until they can be cuffed.  This was not procedure and we are all calling it out.  

[Brisketexan 105,154]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I know personally a number of LEs.  APD.  DPD (x2), and a SWAT officer in AL.  To a man, they all agree 100% that these shitbirds murdered that man and need to be jailed.  Unless I'm missing something, I see almost no LEs defending the actions of the officers.  A knee on the back is a transition move to hold them until they can be cuffed.  This was not procedure and we are all calling it out.  

Well, let's see.  Three cops ON THE SCENE approved of Chauvin's actions, because they helped him and let him continue.  So, 4 cops on the scene.  It wasn't just 25% of them who were bad.  Not 50. Not 75.  100% of them were bad.  What are the odds that ALL FOUR of the bad cops in Minneapolis were at the same arrest?  Or maybe....how they ALL behaved is the rule, not the exception.

And who knows how many MORE approved of his actions over the years, because he'd clearly been a problem for some time.  

There were multiple cops on the scene participating in the murder of Eric Garner.

A shitload were on the scene beating Rodney King. 

We can do this all day.  Dozens of cops on the scene who could have stepped in and done the right thing.  What are the odds that the victim just drew the short straw of having ALL the bad cops in the same place that day?  Nope.

It's easy for cops to denounce the Floyd murder now.....because they know the consequences of saying otherwise.  But we took a poll of cops on the scene the day of the murder -- 100% of the cops on the scene supported Chauvin's actions.  That's the polling data that matters.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

19 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

 To a man, they all agree 100% that these shitbirds murdered that man and need to be jailed.  

Again, pretty rotten luck they were 0 for 4 with the ones actually watching the murder then.

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

To people who are not familiar with the Knapp Commission in NY, there have been some pretty good docs that have come out recently. 

A funny note, not a goddamn thing has changed anywhere in the country. 
 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Doc Reeves

[SydneyCarton 48,109]

It’s not reasonable to expect police officers to not carry firearms unless the rampant gun control and availability of firearms is curtailed as well. You can’t ask them to bring a billy-club to a gun fight. Now, do they need assault rifles and military weaponry? That’s another debate, imo. They’re both other debates. If guns get reduced drastically you can start this conversation. 
 

i agree with Penelope’s post above. That or there should be an independent FEDERAL organization that acts as a national internal affairs and does nothing but independently review all of these cases, from the run of the mill to the public powder kegs. Independent cops, independent attorneys, no camaraderie with the local cops and prosecutors.
 

I’ll continue to beat the drum for regular and invasive deep psychological dives into the psyche of people who are cops and want to be cops. Yes, some might learn the right answers to give to pass. But those that calculating are probably smart enough to also not be out murdering civilians on camera. At least that’s an improvement. 
 

at some point with these restrictions it’s going to be hard to find, much less attract good cops.  You’re gonna have to pay them. A lot. And that’s fine. You make it a highly sought after job and guess what, you have better applicants. At one point transitioning jobs I thought about being a cop. I went another way but man, 55k a year isn’t shit to start for the hours and risk and stress. Most cops don’t have great home lives and a massive chunk of that is the stress of the job. Pay them a lot more, but make them accountable. Ditto teachers, while we’re at it. 

it’s broken. Fix it. America used to take pride in accomplishing the impossible, advancing our country and our species. It’s a pity that has devolved into rancor at anyone who criticizes the status quo. To me that is the most unpatriotic thing happening in America now, and it’s pervasive. Respect everyone until they give you reason not to and let’s do the hard thing and get better. 
 

 

[Brisketexan 105,154]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

That or there should be an independent FEDERAL organization that acts as a national internal affairs and does nothing but independently review all of these cases, from the run of the mill to the public powder kegs. Independent cops, independent attorneys, no camaraderie with the local cops and prosecutors.

The DOJ was at least to some degree performing that function.....until 2016.  And then to cap it off, LITERALLY on his way out the door (on his last day) AG Sessions issued DOJ guidance intended to sharply limit the use of Federal Consent Decrees (that is, enforceable judgments) to require police departments to comply with federal law.

So, we've tried that.  But the ruling majority expressly REJECTED that approach.  The problem is us.  We enable this, and we consciously choose to.  We the people don't have a lot of credibility to bitch about the poison of bad policing when it's literally what we ask for.

[GotThatFire 166]

What are some of the excuses police forces have given for why they don’t use nonstop body cameras?

[Iceman 2,716]

3 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

What are some of the excuses police forces have given for why they don’t use nonstop body cameras?

they are cumbersome/ problematic in trials?

Edited June 1, 2020 by Iceman

[GotThatFire 166]

2 minutes ago, Iceman said:

they are cumbersome in trials?

Maybe you jest I don’t know? But that should and could definitely be a good first step and I’m wondering what sort of excuses they’ve given and why they haven’t been laughed out of the room

Edited June 1, 2020 by GotThatFire

[Brisketexan 105,154]

1 minute ago, GotThatFire said:

What are some of the excuses police forces have given for why they don’t use nonstop body cameras?

See the quotes from, oh, I don't know, THE HEAD of the Fraternal Order of Police, which supported (and actually got passed in Illinois) laws making it ILLEGAL to record cops doing their job:

Quote

"Letting people record police officers is an extreme and intrusive response to a problem that's so rare it might as well not exist," Pasco insists. "It would be like saying we should do away with DNA evidence because there's a one-in-a-billion chance that it could be wrong. At some point, we have to put some faith and trust in our authority figures."

Again....the police sponsored laws to make recording them ILLEGAL (law was later found to be unconstitutional - duh).  This is the enemy.  This is what we face.  Not only are they not accountable, they actively fought to make a mechanism of accountability ILLEGAL, punishable by imprisonment.  That's how badly the police want you to fuck off and not hold them accountable.

[TornACL 7,698]

Police unions have fought every reasonable effort to make PDs safer. Start by busting them up. In order to do that you'll need politicians who are willing to kill their career in order to do what's right. The unions have a deep bag of tricks at their disposal to fight back against any elected official who dares to interfere with their cartel. 

[Huckleberry 32,985]

Higher salaries with far more stringent requirements. Make being a police officer something that good people aspire to instead of mostly high school meatheads.

[BabaYaga 15,301]

47 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, let's see.  Three cops ON THE SCENE approved of Chauvin's actions, because they helped him and let him continue.  So, 4 cops on the scene.  It wasn't just 25% of them who were bad.  Not 50. Not 75.  100% of them were bad.  What are the odds that ALL FOUR of the bad cops in Minneapolis were at the same arrest?  Or maybe....how they ALL behaved is the rule, not the exception.

And who knows how many MORE approved of his actions over the years, because he'd clearly been a problem for some time.  

There were multiple cops on the scene participating in the murder of Eric Garner.

A shitload were on the scene beating Rodney King. 

We can do this all day.  Dozens of cops on the scene who could have stepped in and done the right thing.  What are the odds that the victim just drew the short straw of having ALL the bad cops in the same place that day?  Nope.

It's easy for cops to denounce the Floyd murder now.....because they know the consequences of saying otherwise.  But we took a poll of cops on the scene the day of the murder -- 100% of the cops on the scene supported Chauvin's actions.  That's the polling data that matters.

Pretty sure "these" attributes to the cops at the scene and are all going to lose their jobs and see jail time and be made an example of.  

Are they all going to lose their jobs?  Yes

Are they all going to possible face jail time?  More than likely.  I'm not sure what the point of the rant here is?  Those that "could" have stepped in are being held just as accountable and will more than likely never wear a badge again and face justice for their tacit approval.  

[Incredulity 11,675]

1 hour ago, Iceman said:

Yep.  Happens in the military all the time. As a leader, you’re not held personally liable for a subordinate’s idiocy/ bad judgment; but your processes and expectations had better be consistently demonstrated by you and known by your charges.  
 

It isn’t difficult.  

It happens all throughout adult life. Every business owner knows the dynamic well.  A POS employee cam fuck you over every conceivable way from financial to legal.

 

The biggest impediment to that kind of accountability is the union.

[SydneyCarton 48,109]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The DOJ was at least to some degree performing that function.....until 2016.  And then to cap it off, LITERALLY on his way out the door (on his last day) AG Sessions issued DOJ guidance intended to sharply limit the use of Federal Consent Decrees (that is, enforceable judgments) to require police departments to comply with federal law.

So, we've tried that.  But the ruling majority expressly REJECTED that approach.  The problem is us.  We enable this, and we consciously choose to.  We the people don't have a lot of credibility to bitch about the poison of bad policing when it's literally what we ask for.

That’s great man. You want to fix the police but your first reaction is also to spew your “woe is me we’re doomed because people are fucking terrible” shit all over things. Then why bother to even fucking post since we’re doomed? Go get drunk and enjoy the time we have left before it all goes down in flames then. 
 

don’t expect an existing department to “handle” it. You’re right, shitty people can then choose to shuffle shit around or stop doing that function as a ruling party sees fit. usually in the shadows. How do you fix that? You create a public, large scale NEW department, like we did with Homeland Security, and you make their mandate specifically to be the the policing of personal liberties and the power of law enforcement and to make sure officers of the law are upholding the ideal of serving and protecting. And then you force the people who want to declaw it, or weaken it, or dissolve it to do so by an act of fucking congress and to be ACCOUNTABLE for doing such. Much like say, defunding the pandemic arm of the CDC. If they want to do evil, fine, at least they’ll have to be on the record and do it in broad fucking daylight. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Cut police funding and forces in half and invest the money in mental health services available to the public. 

[Brisketexan 105,154]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Pretty sure "these" attributes to the cops at the scene and are all going to lose their jobs and see jail time and be made an example of.  

Are they all going to lose their jobs?  Yes

Are they all going to possible face jail time?  More than likely.  I'm not sure what the point of the rant here is?  Those that "could" have stepped in are being held just as accountable and will more than likely never wear a badge again and face justice for their tacit approval.  

The point is that they are only accountable when we caught them on camera.  Do you think that all four of those cops are outliers, or is it more likely that we could have picked another three Minneapolis cops to be on the scene, and they would have done the same thing -- supported and stood by as Chauvin murdered a man?  Come on.  

Yeah, it looks like we're going to hold this group accountable.  Because they got caught on camera.  Participating in an active murder.

We shouldn't WANT to hold cops accountable for murder.  What we should WANT is for them to -- go with me here -- not commit murder in the first place, and not support and aid another cop actively murdering someone.  Whether or not there was a camera present, what should have happened was all three of those cops saying "nope, he's under control, get off of him."  But they didn't.  That wasn't an anomaly.   That is how PDs and cops work, by design.

[BabaYaga 15,301]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

Higher salaries with far more stringent requirements. Make being a police officer something that good people aspire to instead of mostly high school meatheads.

No.  We just need to shit all over them.  Like I said.  I know a bunch.  None are meatheads.  Anecdotal, I know.  All have degrees.  Two have former military training.  

When Lil Wayne is the voice of reason, maybe we need to take a step back....

Quote

“We have to stop placing the blame on the whole force and the whole everybody or a certain race or everybody with a badge… And if we want to place the blame on anybody, it should be ourselves for not doing more than what we think we’re doing.”

 

[Iceman 2,716]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Cut police funding and forces in half and invest the money in mental health services available to the public. 

Oklahoma's gonna appreciate the nation's generosity...

[BabaYaga 15,301]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

The point is that they are only accountable when we caught them on camera.

How else do you hold ANYONE accountable?  Jesus.  Yes, there are probably incidents not recorded.  There are certainly millions upon millions of daily stops across the country that go completely normal.  These shit heads murdered a man.  And will face the full brunt of the law because of it.  

[GotThatFire 166]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

See the quotes from, oh, I don't know, THE HEAD of the Fraternal Order of Police, which supported (and actually got passed in Illinois) laws making it ILLEGAL to record cops doing their job:

Again....the police sponsored laws to make recording them ILLEGAL (law was later found to be unconstitutional - duh).  This is the enemy.  This is what we face.  Not only are they not accountable, they actively fought to make a mechanism of accountability ILLEGAL, punishable by imprisonment.  That's how badly the police want you to fuck off and not hold them accountable.

In the other thread you declared that we the people were the enemy soooo maybe you’re drunk in the morning?

[Brisketexan 105,154]

4 minutes ago, TornACL said:

The unions have a deep bag of tricks at their disposal to fight back against any elected official who dares to interfere with their cartel. 

It's a much deeper bag of tricks than that.  People with a badge literally have a legal license to harass you 24/7.  Want to take on the cops as a city council member?  Be prepared to be pulled over 20 times a week.  Be prepared to have them dig into every detail of your life.  You need to give up drinking completely, because if you have a single beer and step off your front porch, they'll arrest you for PI.  One of those times when they're following you, and you look down at the radio and drift in your lane slightly....they'll arrest you for DUI.  And more.  

It's dangerous to take on the mob.

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

How do you fix that? You create a public, large scale NEW department, like we did with Homeland Security, and you make their mandate specifically to be the the policing of personal liberties and the power of law enforcement and to make sure officers of the law are upholding the ideal of serving and protecting. And then you force the people who want to declaw it, or weaken it, or dissolve it to do so by an act of fucking congress and to be ACCOUNTABLE for doing such. Much like say, defunding the pandemic arm of the CDC. If they want to do evil, fine, at least they’ll have to be on the record and do it in broad fucking daylight. 

Sure thing.  I love the idea.  Good luck.   That will never even get off the launch pad -- we can't go CR, but come on....to you think that the ruling political party will EVER let something like that happen?  Just the "waste of taxpayer money on another bureaucracy" argument will be enough to make it DOA.  And doing evil in broad daylight has been NO deterrent thus far.  Don't know why you think it will start working now.

[SydneyCarton 48,109]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

How else do you hold ANYONE accountable?  Jesus.  Yes, there are probably incidents not recorded.  There are certainly millions upon millions of daily stops across the country that go completely normal.  These shit heads murdered a man.  And will face the full brunt of the law because of it.  

 Nono sir, you don’t understand. There’s not point in even attempting to better ourselves or society because we were tainted the second Adam and Eve nibbled on that apple. There’s no point even trying because man was born with sin in the first place. 

[Huckleberry 32,985]

6 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

No.  We just need to shit all over them.  Like I said.  I know a bunch.  None are meatheads.  Anecdotal, I know.  All have degrees.  Two have former military training.  

When Lil Wayne is the voice of reason, maybe we need to take a step back....

 

No way, you mean that a degreed person knows mostly people with degrees? I'm shocked.

Most cops are meatheads. I've had enough interactions with them to be pretty damn certain of this.

[SydneyCarton 48,109]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

It's a much deeper bag of tricks than that.  People with a badge literally have a legal license to harass you 24/7.  Want to take on the cops as a city council member?  Be prepared to be pulled over 20 times a week.  Be prepared to have them dig into every detail of your life.  You need to give up drinking completely, because if you have a single beer and step off your front porch, they'll arrest you for PI.  One of those times when they're following you, and you look down at the radio and drift in your lane slightly....they'll arrest you for DUI.  And more.  

It's dangerous to take on the mob.

Sure thing.  I love the idea.  Good luck.   That will never even get off the launch pad -- we can't go CR, but come on....to you think that the ruling political party will EVER let something like that happen?  Just the "waste of taxpayer money on another bureaucracy" argument will be enough to make it DOA.  And doing evil in broad daylight has been NO deterrent thus far.  Don't know why you think it will start working now.

I don’t know, maybe because there’s an election in November and the country has never been more fucked up than it is currently. And people are unhappy. Again, if you’re a fatalist, fine, but go be it somewhere else. Not everyone has given up on life and hope *just* yet, even if it’s dark as fuck right now. But maybe Dawn is o the horizon. If you don’t think so cool, but your persistent pessimism on everything these days isn’t productive. And arguably you’re fostering an attitude of complacency for the status quo. You want things to be better? Be better yourself and don’t quit and shit on people who are engaged with wanting to improve the world. 

[Fuck Tim Beck 3,834]

When a cop commits a crime those charges should be escalated just like they are when a citizen commits a crime against a cop. They need to be held to a higher standard instead of always getting a free pass. 

Take the power away from police unions. Cops should lose their pensions when found guilty of a serious crime. 

Victims families should be paid from pension funds and not taxpayer money. 

Stop giving cops military equipment 

Stop allowing cops to investigate cops for wrongdoing. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Fuck Tim Beck

[Brisketexan 105,154]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

How else do you hold ANYONE accountable?  Jesus.  Yes, there are probably incidents not recorded.  There are certainly millions upon millions of daily stops across the country that go completely normal.  These shit heads murdered a man.  And will face the full brunt of the law because of it.  

How do you hold ANYONE accountable?

Well, it really starts with this foundation: they shouldn't be criminal shitheads.  They should have and hold values that cause them -- when witnessing a murder in front of them -- to stop the murder, instead of support it.

I mean, that's what we expect of our kids, right?  We raise them with some set of values, and while they aren't perfect, we damned well know that if the ONLY thing that kept our kids from being criminal shitheels was a surveillance camera and the threat of punishment, then we'd have blown it as parents.  I raise my kids so they will CHOOSE to do the right thing, whether or not I am around to punish them if they don't.

That's all we should expect and demand.  I don't want to have to hold cops accountable.  I want them to hold THEMSELVES accountable.  To hold wild and crazy values like "we shouldn't murder people, and if we see someone else murdering people, even if that person is wearing a badge, we should stop him."  I know, I know, I obviously expect too much.

[Bash Riprock 1,695]

Bunch of Hunk Jocks

[Brisketexan 105,154]

1 minute ago, Fuck Tim Beck said:

When a cop commits a crime those charges should be escalated just like they are when a citizen commits a crime against a cop. They need to be held to a higher standard instead of always getting a free pass. 

100% this -- I've held this position for years.

Say that assault intended to cause bodily injury is a second degree felony.

The same crime, committed under color of legal authority, enhance it to a first degree felony.

They should be held to a higher standard, because they are trained and took an oath to UPHOLD the law. 

[HoustonFrog 368]

Pay them a lot more, require a degree at minimum. Make it comparable to tech, engineering, banking.

[ajax 2,618]

I've said this before - all payouts for police misconduct should come out of the police pension, not from taxpayer dollars. Let's see if good cops will continue to cover for bad cops when their own retirement is at stake.

[SDG 3,319]

One of the easiest ways a mayor of chief could clean out a department is requiring self funded insurance.  No insurance no work. A**holes like this guy in MINN would of had to quit well before his 18th complaint and causing another death.  

[Tex Long 4,401]

“The Police” are Military, pure and simple.

They are the Domestic Military. Their job is to keep hoi polloi in their place, and not allow them to bother [REDACTED]. There are no effective limits on the lengths to which they can go. The patrolman on the street is at the very lowest level, almost entirely drawn from hoi polloi, and almost all willing to go along with whatever goes down. They are given privileges which allow them to rise to the top of their class, which drives their consent to engage in actual abuses as well as the coverups which sometimes follow those abuses.

Nothing is going to change the fact that, like virtually every other government entity in existence, they nearly always will be allowed to investigate themselves and to determine whether they have done wrong. If an investigation rises beyond their level, the next higher level will find that they are not liable for any “mistakes” that were made. Occasionally, a sacrifice of an unimportant, unconnected individual or group may be made, but that is a rare occasion.

I understand the hopes being offered by many well-intentioned citizens, here and elsewhere, that we will somehow be able to make changes to “correct” these flaws... but I don't think you'll see anything other than window-dressing. Why? Because from the perspective of those with actual power, things are going pretty much as planned, i.e., no substantive changes are needed, so there won't be any such.

Bottom line: you can't “fix the police” because they are a necessary part of the system, and the system isn't broken. From the perspective of the powerful.

Bottomer line: if you acquire or are born with enough power that perhaps you could change the system, well... ask Kennedy, X, King, Kennedy... Wellstone... Tillman...

 

YMMV

[Tylerocks 2,553]

Demilitarization would be a first step.  The tanks, armored vehicles, and showing up with $100K in tactical gear on is over the top.

Agree with defense funds coming from pension

More extensive training and background checks

 

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

29 minutes ago, Iceman said:

they are cumbersome/ problematic in trials?

Said the same about patrol unit dash cams in the 80s

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

1 minute ago, Tylerocks said:

Demilitarization would be a first step.  The tanks, armored vehicles, and showing up with $100K in tactical gear on is over the top.

Agree with defense funds coming from pension

More extensive training and background checks

 

Bad cops are rarely born, they are made.

[GotThatFire 166]

There’s a fix. There is always a fix.

The problem does not lie just with the police. Citizens and society also have a problem. Can’t put everything on cops. Crime is rampant and violent crime is widespread. Criminals need to take responsibility as well. If you disagree, realize you are a criminals’ champion, then bow out of the conversation because your opinion is invalid.

I want to live my life in peace and happiness and be able to raise my children and let my daughters go out to play and be safe. It would also be cool if they could grow up and not get raped or murdered or sucked into a life of crime by their surroundings. That’s what most people want and until that’s what most people get then it will be hard to fix things. You can’t just fix one thing