Lets fix the police

[Doc Reeves 6434]

Im not sure I understand. Criminals getting arrested is them taking responsibility for their actions. 
 

[GotThatFire 166]

17 minutes ago, Fuck Tim Beck said:

When a cop commits a crime those charges should be escalated just like they are when a citizen commits a crime against a cop. They need to be held to a higher standard instead of always getting a free pass. 

Take the power away from police unions. Cops should lose their pensions when found guilty of a serious crime. 

Victims families should be paid from pension funds and not taxpayer money. 

Stop giving cops military equipment 

Stop allowing cops to investigate cops for wrongdoing. 

[BabaYaga 15313]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That's all we should expect and demand.  I don't want to have to hold cops accountable.  I want them to hold THEMSELVES accountable.  To hold wild and crazy values like "we shouldn't murder people, and if we see someone else murdering people, even if that person is wearing a badge, we should stop him."  I know, I know, I obviously expect too much.

Which is why ALL FOUR and being removed and prepped for criminal charges.  What else are you ranting about?  It happens in the military.  It happens in LE.  I happens in all walks of life that you have psycho fucks.  I was listening to a podcast and a SEAL speaker remarked the HONOR MAN of his BUDS class went jail for murdering someone with a Spyderco knife.  I'm pretty sure the SEALS are facing budgetary/training issues.  These FOUR officers will more than likely be charged with murder.  What else do you want to see happen to them?  

[Brisketexan 105319]

2 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

There’s a fix. There is always a fix.

The problem does not lie just with the police. Citizens and society also have a problem. Can’t put everything on cops. Crime is rampant and violent crime is widespread. Criminals need to take responsibility as well. If you disagree, realize you are a criminals’ champion, then bow out of the conversation because your opinion is invalid.

I want to live my life in peace and happiness and be able to raise my children and let my daughters go out to play and be safe. It would also be cool if they could grow up and not get raped or murdered or sucked into a life of crime by their surroundings. That’s what most people want and until that’s what most people get then it will be hard to fix things. You can’t just fix one thing

Violent crime is way down from previous levels.

And yes, there is crime.  That's why we need police.  Crime is a human problem, always has been.  

But we don't need police to be criminals too.  See, there are BAD guys out there.  They DON'T follow the law.  The folks who stop them should be GOOD guys.  They SHOULD follow the law.

There's crime in Ireland.  And Germany.  And Sweden.  Yet they don't have violent criminal police abuses to the degree that we do.

[SydneyCarton 48168]

People often suck. You can’t fix that. But you make make harder for people to be pieces of shit and painful if they’re caught. I’d love for a majority of people to be good because that’s how they just are, but I’ll *take* them behaving because they’re scared of consequences. People can make a big idealistic debate over this, burner the end of the day it’s no different than any other laws we have for murder, drunk driving, anything else. Make it hard to be short and by proxy there is generally less shiftiness. Or do we think removing all laws would make humanity better people? 

[GotThatFire 166]

1 minute ago, Doc Reeves said:

Im not sure I understand. Criminals getting arrested is them taking responsibility for their actions. 
 

No, it’s not. Criminals getting arrested is consequences for their actions. Responsibility would be ceasing to be criminals in the first place

[Brisketexan 105319]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Which is why ALL FOUR and being removed and prepped for criminal charges.  What else are you ranting about?  It happens in the military.  It happens in LE.  I happens in all walks of life that you have psycho fucks.  I was listening to a podcast and a SEAL speaker remarked the HONOR MAN of his BUDS class went jail for murdering someone with a Spyderco knife.  I'm pretty sure the SEALS are facing budgetary/training issues.  These FOUR officers will more than likely be charged with murder.  What else do you want to see happen to them?  

Jesus.  It's not about what I want to see happen to these 4 cops.  How about I just create a contrast.

What I DON'T want: police departments where 3 cops who witness a 4th cop murder someone all face criminal sanction.

What I DO want: police departments where the 3 cops never allow the murder to happen in the first place.

I want a CULTURAL change.  Chauvin and the other 3 didn't murder Floyd -- the culture of that entire PD did.  Odds are quite high that we could have replaced those 3 cops with 3 other MPD cops, and they'd have done exactly the same.

I don't want accountability -- I want us to have very little NEED for accountability.  I don't want cops to not murder people because they might be caught and punished and held accountable.  I want cops to not murder people because they believe murdering people is wrong, and it goes against their values, and if they see one of their fellow officers doing it, they will uphold those values and stop him. 

Just like I want my son to not rape women, NOT because he's afraid he'll be caught and punished and will be held "accountable," but because he's a decent human being who knows it's wrong to violate another person like that.

Am I somehow not being clear here?   Seriously, maybe I'm just not communicating this well, and that bothers me.

[Brisketexan 105319]

3 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

No, it’s not. Criminals getting arrested is consequences for their actions. Responsibility would be ceasing to be criminals in the first place

You bet.

And silly me.....I would like our police to be more responsible than criminals.  Because, you know, the cops shouldn't be criminals.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[T-shirt Sip 2107]

1. Pair them up. Senior officer has no less than 5 years on the local force.

2. Make them responsible for each other’s actions. 

3. Have a judge oversee the case in an officer involved shooting/death or assault, not the local DA who works hand in hand with these same cops regularly. 

4. Make Grand Jury records open to the public. 

 

JMO. 

[GotThatFire 166]

7 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

People clamor for fewer prisons, (so) they (can) then clamor about prison overcrowding. 
 

do you suggest letting people get away with crimes? Or maybe you want to create fucking small towns otherwise known as rehabilitation communities or some shit?

Edited June 1, 2020 by GotThatFire

[GotThatFire 166]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You bet.

And silly me.....I would like our police to be more responsible than criminals.  Because, you know, the cops shouldn't be criminals.

Yeah, obviously 

[BabaYaga 15313]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Jesus.  It's not about what I want to see happen to these 4 cops.  How about I just create a contrast.

What I DON'T want: police departments where 3 cops who witness a 4th cop murder someone all face criminal sanction.

What I DO want: police departments where the 3 cops never allow the murder to happen in the first place.

I want a CULTURAL change.  Chauvin and the other 3 didn't murder Floyd -- the culture of that entire PD did.  Odds are quite high that we could have replaced those 3 cops with 3 other MPD cops, and they'd have done exactly the same.

I don't want accountability -- I want us to have very little NEED for accountability.  I don't want cops to not murder people because they might be caught and punished and held accountable.  I want cops to not murder people because they believe murdering people is wrong, and it goes against their values, and if they see one of their fellow officers doing it, they will uphold those values and stop him. 

Just like I want my son to not rape women, NOT because he's afraid he'll be caught and punished and will be held "accountable," but because he's a decent human being who knows it's wrong to violate another person like that.

Am I somehow not being clear here?   Seriously, maybe I'm just not communicating this well, and that bothers me.

No, you're clear.  You're on one of your rants again.  That is also clear.  You are pontificating and painting again an entire class of people that "need to change" (see my Lil Wayne point that him being the voice of reason should give you pause).  No solutions or specifics mind you.  

You don't WANT bad cops.  But they exist.  You don't WANT citizen murders.  But they happen.  You want a cultural change.  Ok.  What then?  What specific steps are you advocating for?  Criminal charges for all FOUR?  That's a good first step and a message sent.  What else?  Typically on most officer involved issues you get a blend of for/against for the LE community.  Not this time.  It's been 100% they need to burn.  

Flip the script - what are my suggestions.  Here are three that immediately come to mind

• End qualified immunity.
• Abolish police unions.
• End the war on drugs.  

[Brisketexan 105319]

1 minute ago, GotThatFire said:

People clamor for fewer prisons, (so) they then clamor about prison overcrowding. 
 

do you suggest letting people get away with crimes? Or maybe you want to create fucking small towns otherwise known as rehabilitation communities or some shit?

Decriminalizing a lot of bullshit nonviolent offenses would help a lot.  So would decriminalizing drugs, when the "WAR ON DRUGS" is perhaps the single greatest contributor to the erosion of the 4th Amendment and the protection of the public in history.

There's literally nothing a cop can't do to me, my car, my home, or my person, so long as he starts his report with "Based on my years of training and experience, I smelled the distinct odor of marijuana....."  Note -- that doesn't even have to be true.  It can be completely made up, but guess what, he's now made a record of probable cause, and my rights and protections as a citizen are now null and void, because he just transformed me -- with a single statement written on a report (and you bet his buddies will back him up) -- into a "suspect."

So, yeah, I suggest letting people get away with a lot of "crimes" because a lot of "crimes" are bullshit that protect nobody, but sure as shit provide a door through which law enforcement can drive a Constitution-smashing truck.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

also, the average American is much more drastically affected by white collar crime. The difference in your chances as an American suffering violent crime vs. white collar crime that you early even are aware of is staggering.  
 

if someone is going to get ‘Sucked into crime” it’s directly related to class of one is a violent or white collar criminal 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Here’s my fix in one sentence


Protestors become police officers

[Brisketexan 105319]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

No, you're clear.  You're on one of your rants again.  That is also clear.  You are pontificating and painting again an entire class of people that "need to change" (see my Lil Wayne point that him being the voice of reason should give you pause).  No solutions or specifics mind you.  

You don't WANT bad cops.  But they exist.  You don't WANT citizen murders.  But they happen.  You want a cultural change.  Ok.  What then?  What specific steps are you advocating for?  Criminal charges for all FOUR?  That's a good first step and a message sent.  What else?  Typically on most officer involved issues you get a blend of for/against for the LE community.  Not this time.  It's been 100% they need to burn.  

Flip the script - what are my suggestions.  Here are three that immediately come to mind

• End qualified immunity.
• Abolish police unions.
• End the war on drugs.  

I don't want bad cops to exist.

I don't want citizen murders.

But here's the thing -- I hold the law ENFORCERS to a higher standard than I do the law BREAKERS.  That's it.  That's my radical demand.  So, I want us to stop creating a culture of law breakers.  I want law enforcement training not just to stop emphasizing the warrior cop and blue line mentality -- I want it to train AGAINST it.  We are CREATING bad cops.  We train them to be bad.  We should stop doing that.  We should do the opposite.

And as for your three bullets, I'm on board, absolutely.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

I submit that one thing you can do, that isn't police-specific, is check yourself when you start exhibiting a "tough on crime" attitude.  When you start saying shit like "death penalty!"  or "lock em up" or whatever.

Because in the end, it is this fear of crime that empowers the criminal justice system, to include cops. to do their worst.  It is our national fear that enables politicians and police entities to run hog wild.  

Not enough people stop themselves, think, "hey, is this really solving anything or is it just making some nasty part of my character feel good?"

Don't vote for anyone that expresses a mindless "tough on crime" stance.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

16 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

No, it’s not. Criminals getting arrested is consequences for their actions. Responsibility would be ceasing to be criminals in the first place

You are ignoring the actual sociology of crime. 

This is an actual science with 50 years of data since LBJs ‘war on poverty’ and the Great 70s crime wave.

One of the biggest problems facing us today is that the average US persons perception of crime is vastly different from reality.  

[GotThatFire 166]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Decriminalizing a lot of bullshit nonviolent offenses would help a lot.  So would decriminalizing drugs, when the "WAR ON DRUGS" is perhaps the single greatest contributor to the erosion of the 4th Amendment and the protection of the public in history.

There's literally nothing a cop can't do to me, my car, my home, or my person, so long as he starts his report with "Based on my years of training and experience, I smelled the distinct odor of marijuana....."  Note -- that doesn't even have to be true.  It can be completely made up, but guess what, he's now made a record of probable cause, and my rights and protections as a citizen are now null and void, because he just transformed me -- with a single statement written on a report (and you bet his buddies will back him up) -- into a "suspect."

So, yeah, I suggest letting people get away with a lot of "crimes" because a lot of "crimes" are bullshit that protect nobody, but sure as shit provide a door through which law enforcement can drive a Constitution-smashing truck.

So more specifically are you referring to victimless crimes? If so, state that so that I’m not left to ponder whether you’re suggesting letting people get away with crimes where there is a victim. OR a potential victim: like flying down the road at 192 mph

Edited June 1, 2020 by GotThatFire

[BabaYaga 15313]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't want bad cops to exist.

I don't want citizen murders.

But here's the thing -- I hold the law ENFORCERS to a higher standard than I do the law BREAKERS.  That's it.  That's my radical demand.  So, I want us to stop creating a culture of law breakers.  I want law enforcement training not just to stop emphasizing the warrior cop and blue line mentality -- I want it to train AGAINST it.  We are CREATING bad cops.  We train them to be bad.  We should stop doing that.  We should do the opposite.

And as for your three bullets, I'm on board, absolutely.

Nobody does.  But they do.  All we can do if root them out and punish them.  It's not necessarily sophisticated or sexy, nor is it easy....but it is simple.  Punish them.  Make examples of them.  But also train them.  Teach them.  Coach them.  Stress inoculation.  Weapons training.  Physical training on restraining people (BJJ, for example).  

[bernorange 8363]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

... Am I somehow not being clear here?  ...

You didn't use an analogy.

---

Culture change won't happen without structural change.  The thin blue line has to be neutered and that happens when cops need to police themselves to protect their interests.  Opening their pensions to court verdicts and mandating use of body cams for transparency would be foundational changes.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

19 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

People clamor for fewer prisons, (so) they then clamor about prison overcrowding. 
 

do you suggest letting people get away with crimes? Or maybe you want to create fucking small towns otherwise known as rehabilitation communities or some shit?

Uh, many crimes go unpunished and uninvestigated b/c they are things like insider trading, embezzlement, corporate espionage, tax evasion...you know, white collar crimes that police departments don’t really concern themselves with because doing that work is hard and getting a conviction even harder.  
 

It’s much easier to arrest Leroy on the corner with a bag of dope in is pocket.  Many of our current drugs laws were created to specifically oppress people of color.  You can investigate how cocaine became illegal if you don’t believe me. Call it whatever you want but there isn’t an equatable system of justice in the USA. 
 

We imprison more of our population than any other country in the world.  I guess we’re just a nation of ruffians.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Iceman 2725]

32 minutes ago, Doc Reeves said:

Said the same about patrol unit dash cams in the 80s

Oh I was being maniacally sarcastic.

[GringoSalado 1652]

My beefs about policing in America today, in no particular order:

 

Qualified Immunity

Unions

Militarization of Police

No-Knock Raids

Asset Forfeiture

Plus there must be some kind of selection bias or problem since this seems to happen in different depts. all over the country. Back on point my 5 items above I don't see how any reasonable person thinks we shouldn't be able to sue the PD if they kill my family member, or that cops need ARs, or that no-knock raids are insanely unconstitutional and inherently dangerous and corrupting, and yet we have all these things.

I do think it is a good sign that these stories are starting to put Union officials on blast. I don't know the name of the Minn police chief, how is that not a household name? How is Art Acevedo still employed?

 

 

/rant

 

edit: how the fuck I did not include War On Drugs is beyond me, that's how we got no-knocks, ARs, asset forfeiture and the rest.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by GringoSalado

[Doc Reeves 6434]

28 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

No, it’s not. Criminals getting arrested is consequences for their actions. Responsibility would be ceasing to be criminals in the first place

I’m not dismissing your position, but on this point you are wrong. 

That is an actual functional mandate of the prison system. 
 

 

[John Lawrence 244]

45 minutes ago, ajax said:

I've said this before - all payouts for police misconduct should come out of the police pension, not from taxpayer dollars. Let's see if good cops will continue to cover for bad cops when their own retirement is at stake.

I couldn't agree more.  Collective financial punishment will work wonders.

[GotThatFire 166]

2 minutes ago, Doc Reeves said:

I’m not dismissing your position, but on this point you are wrong. 

That is an actual functional mandate of the prison system. 
 

 

But I’m sure in your next breath you may argue that our prison system is wrong and dysfunctional. So maybe responsibility should be redefined in order to fix something?

[BabaYaga 15313]

It's the unions that will the nut nobody can crack.  Once you set precedent, all unions are up for review.  Teachers unions have long sheltered monsters from scrutiny.  It's not the same, but the horrific treatment of children under their watch needs to be addressed.  These modern unions no longer exist to protect the members - they protect them, but as a byproduct of protecting themselves first.  That has to change.  

[John Lawrence 244]

38 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

There’s a fix. There is always a fix.

The problem does not lie just with the police. Citizens and society also have a problem. Can’t put everything on cops. Crime is rampant and violent crime is widespread. Criminals need to take responsibility as well. If you disagree, realize you are a criminals’ champion, then bow out of the conversation because your opinion is invalid.

I want to live my life in peace and happiness and be able to raise my children and let my daughters go out to play and be safe. It would also be cool if they could grow up and not get raped or murdered or sucked into a life of crime by their surroundings. That’s what most people want and until that’s what most people get then it will be hard to fix things. You can’t just fix one thing

Violent crime is about as low as it's been in 50 years.

[GotThatFire 166]

3 minutes ago, John Lawrence said:

Violent crime is about as low as it's been in 50 years.

I have not taken a deep dive into the statistics on that but I would definitely be willing to. I will say that my city is very violent and much of that violence is unchecked and unpunished. I have my doubts about the accuracy of the violent crime statistics as they are, but if they’re accurate that means that something is working at the top which I doubt many here would be willing to accept. 

[Doc Reeves 6434]

Just now, GotThatFire said:

But I’m sure in your next breath you may argue that our prison system is wrong and dysfunctional. So maybe responsibility should be redefined in order to fix something?

Hmmm...

I can only say what I’ve been told by close family who have been Federal officers and administrators at some of the worst Federal Prisons in the country. 

when it come to punitive punishment, we have that down. When it comes to rehabilitation, that will ebb and flow with the opinion of society. 

For me personally, the main point I think is important is that most people who go to prison in this county eventually get out of prison. If you want to control crime, this is a huge choke point you should focus on. What exactly needs to be done, however, I couldn’t tell you. 

[Armybrat 40898]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The point is that they are only accountable when we caught them on camera.  Do you think that all four of those cops are outliers, or is it more likely that we could have picked another three Minneapolis cops to be on the scene, and they would have done the same thing -- supported and stood by as Chauvin murdered a man?  Come on.  

Yeah, it looks like we're going to hold this group accountable.  Because they got caught on camera.  Participating in an active murder.

We shouldn't WANT to hold cops accountable for murder.  What we should WANT is for them to -- go with me here -- not commit murder in the first place, and not support and aid another cop actively murdering someone.  Whether or not there was a camera present, what should have happened was all three of those cops saying "nope, he's under control, get off of him."  But they didn't.  That wasn't an anomaly.   That is how PDs and cops work, by design.

Your first sentence is bullshit if you think all cops are only accountable if caught on camera. That’s a mighty big paintbrush there, Counselor. The rest of your statement is spot on.

Until the cop haters can get by their “all cops are bad” mantra, there isn’t going to be any meaningful dialog.

The establishment of citizen oversight commissions is a good first step, and limiting the police union clout when it comes to developing new hiring & training procedures should go with that.

Go ahead and rip me to shreds. What do I know?

 

 

[BabaYaga 15313]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I submit that one thing you can do, that isn't police-specific, is check yourself when you start exhibiting a "tough on crime" attitude.  When you start saying shit like "death penalty!"  or "lock em up" or whatever.

Because in the end, it is this fear of crime that empowers the criminal justice system, to include cops. to do their worst.  It is our national fear that enables politicians and police entities to run hog wild.  

Not enough people stop themselves, think, "hey, is this really solving anything or is it just making some nasty part of my character feel good?"

Don't vote for anyone that expresses a mindless "tough on crime" stance.

I think it's worth reviewing NY as a perfect example.  You can compare the earlier "Broken window Theory" and subsequent results to the impact of the more lax modern methods being used.  You can draw lines of agreement parallel to party lines obviously, but there is a clear contract in crime rates before and after.  

We did see a precipitous drop in crime rates.  There were also significant claims of racial profiling.  Community cohesion between citizens and officers is critical.  Both officers and members of the community doing what they can to hold themselves as accountable as possible.  

[Armybrat 40898]

15 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

My beefs about policing in America today, in no particular order:

 

Qualified Immunity

Unions

Militarization of Police

No-Knock Raids

Asset Forfeiture

Plus there must be some kind of selection bias or problem since this seems to happen in different depts. all over the country. Back on point my 5 items above I don't see how any reasonable person thinks we shouldn't be able to sue the PD if they kill my family member, or that cops need ARs, or that no-knock raids are insanely unconstitutional and inherently dangerous and corrupting, and yet we have all these things.

I do think it is a good sign that these stories are starting to put Union officials on blast. I don't know the name of the Minn police chief, how is that not a household name? How is Art Acevedo still employed?

 

 

/rant

 

edit: how the fuck I did not include War On Drugs is beyond me, that's how we got no-knocks, ARs, asset forfeiture and the rest.

 

 

Agreed.

[Brisketexan 105319]

Just now, Armybrat said:

Your first sentence is bullshit if you think all cops are only accountable if caught on camera

All?  No.  I'm sure that there are a handful of cops who are willing to turn in their fellow officer who commits a crime.  But....it's pretty close to all.

Floyd, Garner, Rodney King.....dozens of cops on the scene watching citizens be brutalized and even murdered.  The number of cops who stepped in to stop an ongoing crime: ZERO.  What are the odds?  I mean, REALLY bad luck of the draw for those three, that they happened to get the dozens of bad cops who would let crimes happen.

And would we have known about ANY of those if they weren't filmed?  Nope.

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13119]

25 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Here’s my fix in one sentence


Protestors become police officers

So, the opposite of New Orleans?

[Brisketexan 105319]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Community cohesion between citizens and officers is critical. 

And 100% this.

Believe it or not, in most every lower income or minority community, the community and its leadership WANTS police presence and protection.  And they want to connect and work together.  And in some places, where that desire is met by good-faith law enforcement, it actually works.

That's what kills me.  We actually have a handful of examples where good community-based policing works.....but in so many cases, we still choose to go with the "warrior cop" bullshit.  We don't have to invent good policing -- we can follow existing scripts.  And those scripts help create an incentive and low-risk situation for the community to work WITH the police.  

[GotThatFire 166]

28 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Here’s my fix in one sentence


Protestors become police officers

Maybe that could’ve worked many many years ago. But do you not think that now, much of it would be about revenge?

[Trey3216 15355]

58 minutes ago, SDG said:

One of the easiest ways a mayor of chief could clean out a department is requiring self funded insurance.  No insurance no work. A**holes like this guy in MINN would of had to quit well before his 18th complaint and causing another death.  

Yep.  Professional Liability Insurance would be a good add to the mix.  

[Iceman 2725]

43 minutes ago, T-shirt Sip said:

 

4. Make Grand Jury records open to the public. 

slipped that one in eh?  Care to explain, while also ignoring the reasons jurors are anonymous in the first place?

[GotThatFire 166]

There was a cop, I can’t find the video now but I think it was in Seattle, they were detaining someone on the ground and he removed another cops knee from the guys neck. Let’s call him officer zero. Vet him, get him on TV, let him speak and maybe put him into a position of leadership.

[GotThatFire 166]

Also the cop who had his knee removed, if he did not react negatively to that, he should also be listened to. If he has any ill will towards officer zero for removing his knee then he should be removed from the force immediately

Edited June 1, 2020 by GotThatFire

[John Lawrence 244]

9 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

I have not taken a deep dive into the statistics on that but I would definitely be willing to. I will say that my city is very violent and much of that violence is unchecked and unpunished. I have my doubts about the accuracy of the violent crime statistics as they are, but if they’re accurate that means that something is working at the top which I doubt many here would be willing to accept. 

Heroin was out of control in the 70s and crack was out of control in the 80s to early 90s.  Plus you had stuff like Cocaine Cowboys and Mariel boat lift in Miami where Castro flushed his prisons on America and Miami went from like 15 murders a year to 500.

Long sentences for drug crimes then started being a thing.  Then crack and heroin got more under control.  Now people are ODing on prescription drugs.  But there is not the same amount of attendant gang violence/turf wars over scripts.

The drug sentencing laws are absolutely racist comparing crack to powder coke.  But black community leaders and the congressional black caucus were big supporters of the mandatory minimums being put in place.  Because their communities were the ones being ravaged.  It was bipartisan and biracial in support.

I hate the war on drugs.  I prefer legalization and then treating abusers who want help.  It would be more humane.  It would cost less.  And we would not be warehousing nonviolent criminals.  We could free and pardon nonviolent offenders.  And have a whole lot of space for violent felons.  Who, in my opinion, can largely die in jail and it would not bother me much.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Maybe that could’ve worked many many years ago. But do you not think that now, much of it would be about revenge?

If they’re policing their own communities, will it be revenge?

[GotThatFire 166]

10 minutes ago, John Lawrence said:

Heroin was out of control in the 70s and crack was out of control in the 80s to early 90s.  Plus you had stuff like Cocaine Cowboys and Mariel boat lift in Miami where Castro flushed his prisons on America and Miami went from like 15 murders a year to 500.

Long sentences for drug crimes then started being a thing.  Then crack and heroin got more under control.  Now people are ODing on prescription drugs.  But there is not the same amount of attendant gang violence/turf wars over scripts.

The drug sentencing laws are absolutely racist comparing crack to powder coke.  But black community leaders and the congressional black caucus were big supporters of the mandatory minimums being put in place.  Because their communities were the ones being ravaged.  It was bipartisan and biracial in support.

I hate the war on drugs.  I prefer legalization and then treating abusers who want help.  It would be more humane.  It would cost less.  And we would not be warehousing nonviolent criminals.  We could free and pardon nonviolent offenders.  And have a whole lot of space for violent felons.  Who, in my opinion, can largely die in jail and it would not bother me much.

Not sure how my post about violent crime pivoted to the war on drugs but yeah I’m not a fan of the war on drugs either. Although, I can’t claim to predict the future on what that will be like if we end it. Will we designate drug “dealers”? Will there be molly and shroom  companies? Heroine stores? I’m not in a position in my life with enough free time to put the amount of thought that this deserves, but I’m sure that many people are.

[BabaYaga 15313]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And 100% this.

Believe it or not, in most every lower income or minority community, the community and its leadership WANTS police presence and protection.  And they want to connect and work together.  And in some places, where that desire is met by good-faith law enforcement, it actually works.

That's what kills me.  We actually have a handful of examples where good community-based policing works.....but in so many cases, we still choose to go with the "warrior cop" bullshit.  We don't have to invent good policing -- we can follow existing scripts.  And those scripts help create an incentive and low-risk situation for the community to work WITH the police.  

A handful?  We have thousands.  And tens of millions daily citizen/LE interactions.  All that go perfectly well.  This rush to generalizations combined with emotional legislation is dangerous.  I don't care which side of the isle you sit on.  This need to remove all nuance and distill everything down to a binary choice needs to cool off.  

Cops in gardens and walking kids to school makes for a cute fb video, but it doesn't impact TV ratings.  Cultural "change" needs to also include the drive-by media that is so rush to try and play to a certain narrative.  #ThinBlueLine and #BlackLivesMatter are not the only two choices.  

Generally when someone calls 911 and LE responds, it could be said that might be the worst day of that callers life.  WORST DAY.  Yet that is a dozen times a day for LE officers and First Responders.  Day in and day out.  Soldiers get more down time that most LE's do.  If we are going to spend money, spend it here - training these men and women on how to deal with this.  Stress.  Managing physical altercations.  Worrying that each time you stop a car the window doesn't roll down and you take one in the face.  

[BabaYaga 15313]

More specifics - start here:

• More accountability for PD leadership
• Jackasses run these PD's. It's way past time to un-ass these . Im thinking that senior management gets some jail time in cases like Floyd/Chauvin
• Secondly I would create a third party review and investigation of police fatalities resulting from non violent, non felony calls. The party can refer for prosecution
• Mandatory training and retraining on US Constitution for all PD
• Increase officer pay. Higher expectations will command higher pay
• Allow for officers to take pto if having mental issues. Enable easy access to psych evaluations
• Increase firearm and tactical training requirements 20 fold
• Mandatory body cams (this works both way.  ALL the footage.  Not just selective clips)
• Body cam review done by non pd source
• Altering body cam footage should be federal felony
• Constitutional amendment outlawing no knock warrant
• Lawmaker's accountabilities. Nanny state ****-wads need to be held accountable beyond elections and way sooner. If it can be shown through proper court proceedings that a law created conditions for citizen death at hands of law enforcement, for non violent, non felony laws, then they face immediate recall and impeachment from their positions. This can open civil court options as well
• For rioting and looting control citizens empowerment. Lethal force to protect life and property is authorized if civil unrest reaches a pre-defined point. This includes defense against mobs of rioters.
   

[Brisketexan 105319]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

If we are going to spend money, spend it here - training these men and women on how to deal with this.  Stress.  Managing physical altercations.  Worrying that each time you stop a car the window doesn't roll down and you take one in the face.  

Agreed to some extent.  However, we also need to dispel the myths that are creating this stress.  Cops are TAUGHT that every interaction is life and death, and each traffic stop is an encounter with death.....but statistically, being a cop is safer than dozens of other jobs where the workers perform just fine with the stress (I mean, as fine as humans do -- we all feel stress sometimes).

But yes, de-escalation training, not having fear-based policing, that sort of thing - would go a LONG way to helping out.  

[Brisketexan 105319]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

More specifics - start here:

• More accountability for PD leadership
• Jackasses run these PD's. It's way past time to un-ass these . Im thinking that senior management gets some jail time in cases like Floyd/Chauvin
• Secondly I would create a third party review and investigation of police fatalities resulting from non violent, non felony calls. The party can refer for prosecution
• Mandatory training and retraining on US Constitution for all PD
• Increase officer pay. Higher expectations will command higher pay
• Allow for officers to take pto if having mental issues. Enable easy access to psych evaluations
• Increase firearm and tactical training requirements 20 fold
• Mandatory body cams (this works both way.  ALL the footage.  Not just selective clips)
• Body cam review done by non pd source
• Altering body cam footage should be federal felony
• Constitutional amendment outlawing no knock warrant
• Lawmaker's accountabilities. Nanny state ****-wads need to be held accountable beyond elections and way sooner. If it can be shown through proper court proceedings that a law created conditions for citizen death at hands of law enforcement, for non violent, non felony laws, then they face immediate recall and impeachment from their positions. This can open civil court options as well
• For rioting and looting control citizens empowerment. Lethal force to protect life and property is authorized if civil unrest reaches a pre-defined point. This includes defense against mobs of rioters.
   

I'm good with your list till the last two.  Not sure at all how the lawmaker accountability thing could work (and I'm saying this as a practicing attorney).  Seriously, I can't even begin to think how that would work.  That said, the remedy is ABSOLUTELY at the ballot box, and if legislation created a dangerous situation, then the legislators should be booted and replaced with better ones (oh, I could also go off on my term limit rant here).

For the last one, we really already have that.  You don't even have to wait till unrest reaches any defined point.  You are allowed to protect your life and property with deadly force, if the specific circumstances dictate.  Doesn't matter if 10,000 people are on the streets looting, or if 3 guys are trying to smash into your bar -- you can protect yourself and your property.  And I have no problem with people doing exactly that, I don't think anyone does.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Brisketexan