Lets fix the police

[GotThatFire 166]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

 

• For rioting and looting control citizens empowerment. Lethal force to protect life and property is authorized if civil unrest reaches a pre-defined point. This includes defense against mobs of rioters.
   

So this point here. What about the people who are not legally allowed to defend life and property? Meaning felons, violent or nonviolent. Many of the loudest anti-gun people are folks with felonies who do not have rights to own guns and protect their families. And I don’t blame them. I think anybody that commits a felony under the age of 21 should be given an opportunity to change your life and be crime free for let’s say 10 years and then have their rights to protect themselves and their family and their property restored completely.

[BabaYaga 15300]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Agreed to some extent.  However, we also need to dispel the myths that are creating this stress.  Cops are TAUGHT that every interaction is life and death, and each traffic stop is an encounter with death.....but statistically, being a cop is safer than dozens of other jobs where the workers perform just fine with the stress (I mean, as fine as humans do -- we all feel stress sometimes).

But yes, de-escalation training, not having fear-based policing, that sort of thing - would go a LONG way to helping out.  

I think it's easy to say LE's are "taught" this and that.  It's one thing to say it.  It's another to live it.  I have a great friend that was in GW1 (first gulf war) and spent a decade in a squad car before entering the SWAT team.  He's different now.  Not from war.  From the incessant stress of being an officer.  His words:  "just the relentless grind of being on edge every day....being afraid to park a squad car in from of your house for fear of your babies being fire bombed or shot at".  His other SWAT guys are all ex-military, and yes, it is a limited sample size, but ALL say being a LE is so much more difficult.  Almost impossibly so.  I would guess an overwhelming majority suffer from PTSD and depression without all the "glamour" of returning military veterans wearing BRCC t-shirts and sporting neck-beards and tats.  You could draw a parallel to returning Vietnam vets getting spit on in the airport.  

[T-shirt Sip 2105]

39 minutes ago, Iceman said:

slipped that one in eh?  Care to explain, while also ignoring the reasons jurors are anonymous in the first place?

DA’s decide what gets put forth onto that jury. I don’t care who’s on the jury, I care to see if the DA submitted all available evidence. 

[Brisketexan 105152]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

being afraid to park a squad car in from of your house for fear of your babies being fire bombed or shot at

For this.....oh come on.  I absolutely believe that is the narrative that he believes - it's the circular narrative that they all repeat to each other over and over.  But come on.  Yes, cops have been shot, and cop cars have been attacked (pre-riots).  But statistically, it's not even worth being afraid of.  They have TOLD themselves that it is...which then results in them viewing every single person as a potential terrorist murderer, and we have the burden of proof to prove otherwise lest they take us out to eliminate the threat.  That's some broken shit.

[Pato del Muerto 52507]

Lemme give this a shot. 
 

1)demilitarization. 
2)further, cops can only carry your basic old 6 shot .38 revolver. I’d say the revolver and taser are sufficient and the baton isn’t needed, but batons probably have other uses besides beating people. 
3) enhanced penalties for cops operating outside of their boundaries. Be it excessive force, taking bribes, off duty crimes, etc. 

4) police oversight needs to be redone. They can’t police themselves, expunging disciplinary records should not be allowed, and their record should be attached to their peace officer license for review so that a bad cop can’t jump from force to force. 
 

I don’t think taking from pension funds would help, they’d just have the city collection next contract upped and raise quota and write more traffic tickets. 
it’s apparently been proven that retraining doesn’t work, which points to screening process failure so maybe adjust that. 

[BabaYaga 15300]

4 minutes ago, GotThatFire said:

So this point here. What about the people who are not legally allowed to defend life and property? Meaning felons, violent or nonviolent. Many of the loudest anti-gun people are folks with felonies who do not have rights to own guns and protect their families. And I don’t blame them. I think anybody that commits a felony under the age of 21 should be given an opportunity to change your life and be crime free for let’s say 10 years and then have their rights to protect themselves and their family and their property restored completely.

100%

[Pato del Muerto 52507]

They do that with voting already, right?

[BabaYaga 15300]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

For this.....oh come on.  I absolutely believe that is the narrative that he believes - it's the circular narrative that they all repeat to each other over and over.  But come on.  Yes, cops have been shot, and cop cars have been attacked (pre-riots).  But statistically, it's not even worth being afraid of.  They have TOLD themselves that it is...which then results in them viewing every single person as a potential terrorist murderer, and we have the burden of proof to prove otherwise lest they take us out to eliminate the threat.  That's some broken shit.

Not really.  I saw the bullet holes in the squad cars on their cell phones they all have that precipitated no longer being able to park these cars in front of their houses.  SHots from just patrolling.  Nothing else.  One house also had shots fired through the window.  This is in small town AL, not Baltimore of Chicago.  So yeah, it's real.  

[Brisketexan 105152]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Not really.  I saw the bullet holes in the squad cars on their cell phones they all have that precipitated no longer being able to park these cars in front of their houses.  SHots from just patrolling.  Nothing else.  One house also had shots fired through the window.  This is in small town AL, not Baltimore of Chicago.  So yeah, it's real.  

I find that legitimately surprising.  And makes me think that must be a really fucked up town.  Again, people aren't pissed at the cops for no reason.  This almost certainly isn't Capone, sending a message to the cops to leave his business alone.  What the fuck happened in small town Alabama that made people hate the cops so much?

I mean, "small town Alabama" may be the answer to that question, but I'm genuinely curious, because that sort of action doesn't come out of nowhere.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Brisketexan

[GotThatFire 166]

22 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

They do that with voting already, right?

I believe so, and I also think that certain felonies never cause you to lose your voting rights. Like maybe a state jail felony where you don’t even actually go to prison or even state jail

Edited June 1, 2020 by GotThatFire

[pacman 7357]

Seems an easy step would be to increase hours for training and scrutiny in screening

https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html

I know a few good people who passed everything only to get the not a cultural fit tag while I know more than a few complete assholes who have progressed up the ranks quickly.

['stache 21817]

Here's a thought. Defund police, shrink these police forces, reallocate to other areas that can help. We don't need police monitoring traffic and responding to every person in distress. Fund other agencies to try and prevent these things in alternative ways and respond in ways that don't require armed police. Make armed officers smaller more elite for use in limited circumstances that require it, with higher pay, higher prestige, and in return they will be held to a much higher standard for their deadly conduct. Include a much higher payout on death to the family. Being part of this armed force comes with risk that needs to be accepted and acknowledge, not something that you feel you need to use force to protect yourself at all costs. The focus should be on the people you are policing, including those who have acted illegally.  

https://newrepublic.com/article/157875/pandemic-right-time-defund-police?fbclid=IwAR2uLKdJwwWqZoCubbp7TELGKuBUiACdTCwBUayFICVQqVRDhZajenzc790

[Brisketexan 105152]

3 minutes ago, pacman said:

Seems an easy step would be to increase hours for training and scrutiny in screening

https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html

I know a few good people who passed everything only to get the not a cultural fit tag while I know more than a few complete assholes who have progressed up the ranks quickly.

To become a cop in Germany requires TWO YEARS of training at the academy....plus time with the local officials.  And they are damned well trained in nonviolent policing techniques.  Just as one counter-example.  It can be done.  Lots of places do it.  We don't.

[LCHorn 2620]

58 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I think it's easy to say LE's are "taught" this and that.  It's one thing to say it.  It's another to live it.  I have a great friend that was in GW1 (first gulf war) and spent a decade in a squad car before entering the SWAT team.  He's different now.  Not from war.  From the incessant stress of being an officer.  His words:  "just the relentless grind of being on edge every day....being afraid to park a squad car in from of your house for fear of your babies being fire bombed or shot at".  His other SWAT guys are all ex-military, and yes, it is a limited sample size, but ALL say being a LE is so much more difficult.  Almost impossibly so.  I would guess an overwhelming majority suffer from PTSD and depression without all the "glamour" of returning military veterans wearing BRCC t-shirts and sporting neck-beards and tats.  You could draw a parallel to returning Vietnam vets getting spit on in the airport.  

If being a police officer as a career is too stressful then perhaps we should consider it a national service obligation and create a “Teach For America” type program to staff it. Two or three years and you’re out. 

[Armybrat 40850]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

For this.....oh come on.  I absolutely believe that is the narrative that he believes - it's the circular narrative that they all repeat to each other over and over.  But come on.  Yes, cops have been shot, and cop cars have been attacked (pre-riots).  But statistically, it's not even worth being afraid of.  They have TOLD themselves that it is...which then results in them viewing every single person as a potential terrorist murderer, and we have the burden of proof to prove otherwise lest they take us out to eliminate the threat.  That's some broken shit.

After the Waco/Vernon Howell fiasco, my BATFE neighbor next door started his work truck parked on the street with his remote every morning. Not to warm it up, but to see if a bomb would blow it up. He did that for the several years that he & his family lived there before moving. His Austin office received lots of death threats from the Tim McVeigh types for quite a while. 
He was in a famous news clip of that initial shootout and was on the scene until the FBI took over and really FUBAR’d the whole thing.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Armybrat

[BabaYaga 15300]

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I find that legitimately surprising.  And makes me think that must be a really fucked up town.  Again, people aren't pissed at the cops for no reason.  This almost certainly isn't Capone, sending a message to the cops to leave his business alone.  What the fuck happened in small town Alabama that made people hate the cops so much?

I mean, "small town Alabama" may be the answer to that question, but I'm genuinely curious, because that sort of action doesn't come out of nowhere.

I think you find it surprising because you never really sit down and take the time to listen to them.  To hear their stories.  We talk about listening and empathy.  That goes both ways.  It's Florence, AL, BTW.  This was 7 years ago.  So it's sole and separate from any recent events.  They have TV's - everyone hates cops, right.  It's the "thing to do".  Bad cop runs sell TV time.  Good cop stories, who cares.  Rinse.  Wash.  Repeat.  

[Brisketexan 105152]

2 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

After the Waco/Vernon Howell fiasco, my BATFE neighbor next door started his work truck parked on the street with his remote every morning. Not to warm it up, but to see if a bomb would blow it up. He did that for the several years that lived there before moving. he His Austin office received lots of death threats from the Tim McVeigh types for quite a while. 

Oh, in connection with that specific incident and local BATF types, I believe that.  That was a an utter clusterfuck all the way around.

[BabaYaga 15300]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

To become a cop in Germany requires TWO YEARS of training at the academy....plus time with the local officials.  And they are damned well trained in nonviolent policing techniques.  Just as one counter-example.  It can be done.  Lots of places do it.  We don't.

That means absolutely nothing.  Time in training can mean a litany of different things.  It's the quality of the training they receive both pre-and post graduation.  Nor is there one size that fits all.  Different cities and municipalities have different options and train for different scenarios.  

[Armybrat 40850]

18 minutes ago, pacman said:

Seems an easy step would be to increase hours for training and scrutiny in screening

https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html

I know a few good people who passed everything only to get the not a cultural fit tag while I know more than a few complete assholes who have progressed up the ranks quickly.

Reminds me of post-9/11 when TSA was getting organized and taking applications for airport gate security agents. A good friend in Florida who was a retired cop/detective applied because he was bored with retirement. His application was rejected according to him because he was “overqualified”. Dude was always a straight shooter, so to speak, and a Vietnam vet who never shot anyone while he was on the force.

[Brisketexan 105152]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

I think you find it surprising because you never really sit down and take the time to listen to them.  To hear their stories.  We talk about listening and empathy.  That goes both ways.  It's Florence, AL, BTW.  This was 7 years ago.  So it's sole and separate from any recent events.  They have TV's - everyone hates cops, right.  It's the "thing to do".  Bad cop runs sell TV time.  Good cop stories, who cares.  Rinse.  Wash.  Repeat.  

I used to hunt with a group of them.  To me, they were great guys.  Fun as hell, great hunters, had my back.

But they said enough over the years that it was clear to me that you wouldn't want to be on the other side of them....especially if you were black (yep, I heard N-bombs).  I didn't say anything back then.  There were a lot of them, and I was pretty much a kid.

I also got to be friends with two cops who would work gamedays, and hang out around our tailgate.  We always fed them, gave them cold water and gatorade.  One of them passed away from cancer, and we sent flowers -- she was always kind and caring to us.  I would consider each of them to be a friend, at least casually.  But if you asked me whether they would blow the whistle on a fellow cop doing wrong.....man, I have my doubts.  Because they were cops, through and through.

And again, for the billionth time, it doesn't matter whether your buddies would beat a suspect.  What would they do if they saw a fellow officer doing it?  That's the problem.

[BabaYaga 15300]

14 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

If being a police officer as a career is too stressful then perhaps we should consider it a national service obligation and create a “Teach For America” type program to staff it. Two or three years and you’re out. 

In 2-3 years you are just learning to the ropes.  You'd see the same issue you saw with troops in Vietnam.   Just as they were learning, they cycle out.  

[Brisketexan 105152]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That means absolutely nothing.  Time in training can mean a litany of different things.  It's the quality of the training they receive both pre-and post graduation.  Nor is there one size that fits all.  Different cities and municipalities have different options and train for different scenarios.  

Well, it doesn't mean NOTHING.  I mean, if the two years was two years of them drawing pictures, then sure, it's a waste.  But it's an actual police-specific university in Germany.  The US doesn't have anything close for ANY local law enforcement that I'm aware of.  There's a relatively short police academy experience, a probationary officer period, and that's pretty much it.

And much of what we teach during those things -- whether it's part of the master curriculum or not -- is not helpful.  They are definitely taught not to betray their brother officer, all that crap.  They are taught to be warrior cops (the Minneapolis PD union actually provided that training over the OBJECTION of city officials), both formally and informally.  That has to be eliminated.  It's poison from the very start.

[Rougarou 594]

Here is how I see the blueprint/path forward for fixing the police.

You have to get an outside billionaire who sees a profit and prestige/legacy angle who can build an LEO/Police organization from the ground up. This is controversial because people are going to knee jerk to "oh you can't have a profit motive or incentive for services/service work" but I would argue a) it can't be worse than what we have now and b) look at what Elon Musk did with space travel and how private enterprise has worked WITH government/NASA to advance something that was historically good and of the government but degraded and eroded over time to become inefficient, insufficient and too costly (timely, topical analogy etc.) and let's look at how an Elon Musk could revamp the police organization in a private way:

Let's call it, PoliceX

Like SpaceX did, this will be bankrolled by VC or Billionaires and will be a private entity. It will also work in conjunction with the government (supplementing, funding, etc.) as SpaceX works with NASA there is a give-and-take. This is called symbiosis and it's a good thing. 

Here are some back of the napkin notes on what this would look like:

• You build the private police function from the ground up. Whole entirely new vision and mission statements. It's not a quasi-military, blue-collar, salt-of-the-earth, white male middle class, ex-military, ex-HSfootball player haven.
• The role of LEO is now more of a skilled professional one-- more white collar where you need some polish and poise. Maybe it's a Masters Degree preferred? You need to have been certified in conflict management, negotiations, and arbitration or something. Maybe a JD preferred?
• This needs to be role that is perceived as valuable and important and prestigious with a career path and advancement-- not a union job you get once and languish in forever until you retire with a pension. Sell it as, you want to literally change the world? Here is your chance. Be a part of the team that is transforming LEO in American forever. It's elite folks needed, not your average Joe.
• Eventually your politicians will see this as pre-req to running for higher office and this would be a good thing. Also, make it to where HBS or GSB sees this on a resume as a silver bullet.
• You have to be physically fit of course, still, but the emphasis more on EQ and Soft Skills. Anyone can be taught proficiency with a fire arm. Not anyone can be taught empathy and higher order thinking.
• Doing this automatically diversifies the talent pool and employee profiles. Will still skew white male, but there will be more POC and women. It will look more like the tech industry (which still needs work of course and isn't there yet with diversity and inclusion) than the 5th batallion of Ft. Bragg.
• MBO's (management by objectives)/OKR's (objectives and key results) are going to be tied to being an advocate for the people and the communities in your territory and jurisdiction. There will be a benefit of the doubt first posture and approach. Will crime go up in the short term? Maybe. But long term, LEO transformation is the goal. Any transformation is going to have organizational change management (OCM) pains and debt that you incur upfront, but you will gain the efficiencies and ROI in years 2, 3, 5, beyond.
• have the MBO's/OKR's tie into a) incentives/bonuses and b)keeping your job. If your NPS score (or whatever is identified as the best tool to judge effectiveness) for the community you patrol is a detractor, you are put on a plan, etc.

 

Anyways, those are some starting points. I know a lot of people get pulled offsides by the mere thought of adding some business/corporate best practices to things and knee jerk to it being stupid and corrupt, but our best non-corporate thinking has us destroying our cities like 25 low-level hurricanes all at once (and in the NASA example, stagnated and bloated waste while we get out-innovated and performed), and some radical, entrepreneurial ideas might help cure what ails us.  

[BabaYaga 15300]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I used to hunt with a group of them.  To me, they were great guys.  Fun as hell, great hunters, had my back.

But they said enough over the years that it was clear to me that you wouldn't want to be on the other side of them....especially if you were black (yep, I heard N-bombs).  I didn't say anything back then.  There were a lot of them, and I was pretty much a kid.

I also got to be friends with two cops who would work gamedays, and hang out around our tailgate.  We always fed them, gave them cold water and gatorade.  One of them passed away from cancer, and we sent flowers -- she was always kind and caring to us.  I would consider each of them to be a friend, at least casually.  But if you asked me whether they would blow the whistle on a fellow cop doing wrong.....man, I have my doubts.  Because they were cops, through and through.

And again, for the billionth time, it doesn't matter whether your buddies would beat a suspect.  What would they do if they saw a fellow officer doing it?  That's the problem.

Back when you were a kid?  What is that, decades ago?  I think you overestimate officers protecting bad behavior.  From the ones I know (that are still active to this very day, one used to work for me).  You're damn right they call this BS out.  One was on social media immediately after the incident calling out this technique was horribly wrong and not close to SOP.  You keep having this argument with the narrative in your head that all cops are this, or all cops are that....they are people.  Like the rest of us.  So are the citizens.  

[Huckleberry 32882]

Privatized police is one of the worst ideas in the history of humanity. Literally.

[ChiTownDoc 21154]

3 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

No.  We just need to shit all over them.  Like I said.  I know a bunch.  None are meatheads.  Anecdotal, I know.  All have degrees.  Two have former military training.  

When Lil Wayne is the voice of reason, maybe we need to take a step back....

 

That’s great.  My anecdote says they can literally be too bright to work the streets.  If they score too high on mental aptitude exams they’re pushed in a different direction.  And I can name a LOT of Chicago cops that don’t meet those requirements.  Gary McCarthy and I know each other well and it’s not an adversarial relationship.  Good guy - maybe not the best policies in the past.  Just stating my anecdote like you did yours.  No easy answers to any of this.  

Edited June 1, 2020 by ChiTownDoc

[BabaYaga 15300]

Just now, ChiTownDoc said:

That’s great.  My anecdote says they can literally be too bright to work the streets.  If they score too high on mental aptitude exams they’re pushed in a different direction.  And I can name a LOT of Chicago cops that don’t meet those requirements.  Gary McCarthy and I know each it her well and it’s not an adversarial relationship.  Good guy - maybe not the best policies in the past.  Just stating my anecdote like you did yours.  No easy answers to any of this.  

Many take the Lieutenant and Captains test or become detectives or move into Federal positions like DEA, narcotics, etc.  

[Brisketexan 105152]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Back when you were a kid?  What is that, decades ago?  I think you overestimate officers protecting bad behavior.  From the ones I know (that are still active to this very day, one used to work for me).  You're damn right they call this BS out.  One was on social media immediately after the incident calling out this technique was horribly wrong and not close to SOP.  You keep having this argument with the narrative in your head that all cops are this, or all cops are that....they are people.  Like the rest of us.  So are the citizens.  

It was over 30 years ago....and that's actually my point.  Not much has changed.  Their weapons and gear have upgraded and become military-grade.....but the core attitudes are same as they ever was.  Again, go check out Ice-T's twitter feed.  The black community has sounded the alarm over this stuff for decades upon decades.

And yes, some cops are calling this out NOW....because it's an existential threat.  They are going to face unprecedented crackdowns.  In short, they are shouting out against it because -- FINALLY -- it's going to blow back on all of them, and they're all going to have their style cramped because of this.

And yes, they are people.  And when a group of people is indoctrinated into a collective way of thinking, most of them end up thinking that way.  When the dominant culture of that community is the blue line, protect your brother cops, it's a war on cops and we're warrior cops.....that's the way most of the community ends up thinking.  You may not go into a PD thinking that way....but your chances of coming out of it thinking that way are really high.

[Rougarou 594]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Privatized police is one of the worst ideas in the history of humanity. Literally.

I would challenge this. And I would preface with saying I get where you are coming from and I think it's an intuitive stance based on what we know of a) human history b) the human condition and c) the conflation of an idea of private police with private prisons (not saying this is you, but it struck me as an obstacle to overcome in the hearts and minds of folks).

I think there could be an argument made that public police is worse for black people than any forecasted model of what private police would look like, if approached from the ground up and transformational way I generally spoke about.

[Brisketexan 105152]

Just now, Rougarou said:

I would challenge this. And I would preface with saying I get where you are coming from and I think it's an intuitive stance based on what we know of a) human history b) the human condition and c) the conflation of an idea of private police with private prisons (not saying this is you, but it struck me as an obstacle to overcome in the hearts and minds of folks).

I think there could be an argument made that public police is worse for black people than any forecasted model of what private police would look like, if approached from the ground up and transformational way I generally spoke about.

Yes.  I mean, private prisons worked out GREAT for us.  That wouldn't create any incentive to stack up arrests and other "performance metrics" to drive contract revenues and bonuses.

Sorry, some things are a public service, and the ultimate obligation needs to be to the public good.  Again, that's the whole point and problem here -- the public good has taken a back seat to self-protection and self-serving culture of PDs.

[BabaYaga 15300]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, it doesn't mean NOTHING.  I mean, if the two years was two years of them drawing pictures, then sure, it's a waste.  But it's an actual police-specific university in Germany.  The US doesn't have anything close for ANY local law enforcement that I'm aware of.  There's a relatively short police academy experience, a probationary officer period, and that's pretty much it.

And much of what we teach during those things -- whether it's part of the master curriculum or not -- is not helpful.  They are definitely taught not to betray their brother officer, all that crap.  They are taught to be warrior cops (the Minneapolis PD union actually provided that training over the OBJECTION of city officials), both formally and informally.  That has to be eliminated.  It's poison from the very start.

That's not accurate.  The academy time is less than a year for most LE's, but it is followed by a robust probationary period that can be another 18-24 months.  State/municipality differences of course.  And honestly, how do you know what they teach?  Have you been through it?  Not flaming - what is anchoring such an adamant stance?  And what is a "warrior" cop?  What is the definition here?

[Tex Long 4401]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

"Based on my years of training and experience, I ... [FILL_IN_THE_BLANK] ...

Awright! We agree on something, anyway.

A friend who's a Criminal Defense Lawyer told me a while back that he had sat in front of the same judge and same cop (Deputy Sheriff, I think it was) in two different cases, one week apart almost to the minute, in a suppression hearing, with the same outcome each time (Denied. Ya think?). The first hearing, the cop said "Based on my years of training and experience, I noted that the suspect would not look me in the eyes, and that is a Big. Red. Flag." The second hearing, the cop said "Based on my years of training and experience, I noted that the suspect looked directly into my eyes, and that is a Big. Red. Flag." Thank Jebus for probable cause to search, a few grams of [REDACTED] were found in each case.

['stache 21817]

5 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I would challenge this. And I would preface with saying I get where you are coming from and I think it's an intuitive stance based on what we know of a) human history b) the human condition and c) the conflation of an idea of private police with private prisons (not saying this is you, but it struck me as an obstacle to overcome in the hearts and minds of folks).

I think there could be an argument made that public police is worse for black people than any forecasted model of what private police would look like, if approached from the ground up and transformational way I generally spoke about.

You cannot convince me that the absolute worst of unregulated capitalism would not infect this proposal. The private prisons analogy is unavoidable. I'm sure they didn't start from the "ground up" with a policy that people in prison would be a financial benefit to private shareholders, but here we are, and private police would be the same.  The second you throw in profit and loss statements, it's no longer a police force, it's a business. As a practical matter, I think you would have a legal obstacle in delegating the state's police powers to a private corporation (which I believe is a problem with private prisons too but not as clearly as privatizing the active exercise of police powers).

[Huckleberry 32882]

8 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I would challenge this. And I would preface with saying I get where you are coming from and I think it's an intuitive stance based on what we know of a) human history b) the human condition and c) the conflation of an idea of private police with private prisons (not saying this is you, but it struck me as an obstacle to overcome in the hearts and minds of folks).

I think there could be an argument made that public police is worse for black people than any forecasted model of what private police would look like, if approached from the ground up and transformational way I generally spoke about.

The problem is more fundamental than you may be considering. There are two options for private police incentives:

1. Incentivize arrests, convictions, etc. This is a bad idea for the obvious reasons we all know but is not the only problem with your idea. Clearly it brings into play fabricated crimes and so on because of the financial incentives to the private police force. These are the same kind of perverse incentives that cause a lot of the problems with the current system as officers, DAs, and other members of the justice system are rewarded based on those same metrics.

2. Incentivize lack of crime - You reward the private police force for lower crime rates. This is a problem for two reasons. The first is that they will simply overlook crimes because they are being rewarded for not reporting them. The second is that after this goes on for long enough the public will wonder why they're spending so much on a private police force when there is so little crime. Therefore the incentives would actively ask that the private police company make themselves obsolete. No good business mind is going to sign up for a situation where if they do their job well they end up being fired.

[ChiTownDoc 21154]

19 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Many take the Lieutenant and Captains test or become detectives or move into Federal positions like DEA, narcotics, etc.  

Yes and in Chicago it leaves a lot of dumb meatheads patrolling the streets.  

[Rougarou 594]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Yes.  I mean, private prisons worked out GREAT for us.  That wouldn't create any incentive to stack up arrests and other "performance metrics" to drive contract revenues and bonuses.

Sorry, some things are a public service, and the ultimate obligation needs to be to the public good.  Again, that's the whole point and problem here -- the public good has taken a back seat to self-protection and self-serving culture of PDs.

You could have at least read what I wrote before responding. 

1. Private prisons don't work great for us obviously and it's because of the way that practice was organized and the governance. I've stated twice, that you do it completely opposite the private prisons model.
2. Because of a complete rehaul of the model in point one, your incentives are not to arrest or do anything to . You may even have a cliff, that I've seen some organizations do, to stave off corruption/sand-bagging. E.g. Ideal metrics are X, if you are 80%-120% of X, then great. If you are 79%> or >121% of X, we have a problem.
   1. There will absolutely still be corruption just like in anything else, private, public, etc.
   2. Look at how corruption is dealt with in the private sector versus public; it's not ideal but there is at least accountability and jail time with egregious private sector corruption (Enron, Tyco, etc.) versus Thin Blue Line, kept in the dark because public good union protects and is above the law.
   3. When you add a for-profit wrinkle, you open up a whole new can of worms for accountability. Everything you do wrong is now securities fraud.
3. The model I'm talking about actually has problems/errors/risks that are it is TOO lenient on crime and errs on the side of caution of being TOO lenient on your civil rights. The advocacy and service model would look more like The Citizen is Always Right with respect to benefit of the doubt than it would be You are guilty until proven innocent. White middle class folks would HATE this model because there would be some spoilage and low level, petty criminality that takes advantage of these margins (e.g. essentially decriminalizing drug possession, drug  dealing, petty theft $50<, etc.).
4. Your last sentence is akin to "We can't do that because we've always done it this way!".
   1. You either lack the creativity that true disruption and transformation needs or you have not gone through sufficient pain with the status quo to be desperate to try a radical change.

[BabaYaga 15300]

Just now, ChiTownDoc said:

Yes and in Chicago it leaves a lot of dumb meatheads patrolling the streets.  

Yep.  The role needs much more stringent vetting and much more incentive to bring in the best and the brightest.  Even then, every garden will have it's weeds.  We see if with the very best and highly capable military spec ops guys. 

[Brisketexan 105152]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's not accurate.  The academy time is less than a year for most LE's, but it is followed by a robust probationary period that can be another 18-24 months.  State/municipality differences of course.  And honestly, how do you know what they teach?  Have you been through it?  Not flaming - what is anchoring such an adamant stance?  And what is a "warrior" cop?  What is the definition here?

Warrior cop training is rather well known in the field.  Here's a case-specific discussion:

Quote

Floyd’s death has refocused attention on “warrior-style” police training, which Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey banned last year, and which may help explain how yet another unarmed African-American suspect was killed after being detained.

......

Frey specifically mentioned the classes taught to police in Minnesota and the rest of the country by Dave Grossman, a retired lieutenant colonel with the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne. Grossman is the author of “On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,” a book that promotes the training of a theory he calls “killology” that promotes the mindset needed to take human life.

......

While many in Minneapolis applauded Frey’s decision to stop the city-funded classes, many members of the police force did not.

Minneapolis Police Union president Lt. Bob Kroll said the ban was illegal. “It’s not about killing, it’s about surviving,” Kroll said. He also announced that the union would offer the training to officers during off-duty hours.

.....

“The local union chief in Minneapolis has had a long history of antagonism to the community, and I’m saying that very lightly,” Vanita Gupta, president and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and former chief of the Justice Department civil rights division, told Yahoo News’ “Skullduggery” podcast. “There have been much stronger accusations about his own affiliations, but you know, when the mayor a year ago tried to abolish a kind of training, a warrior-type training in Minneapolis, the union chief went ahead in defiance and hired and spent money to reengage trainers to kind of promote this warrior thinking.”

Retired Minneapolis Police Sgt. Michael Quinn, a former trainer at the Minneapolis Police Academy, told local NBC News affiliate KARE that courses like “killology” inculcated a dangerous mindset.

“You end up with this hypervigilant mode all of the time,” Quinn said. “If you fear for your life on every little startling moment in this job, you’re in the wrong job.”

You may recall this training course for offering the advice that:

Quote

"you and your partner will have the best sex you ever had after you shoot someone“.

This sort of shit is a disease....and police leadership is fighting to KEEP IT.

The head of the national Fraternal Order of Police fought for (and got) a law BANNING the video recording of cops (later overturned as unconstitutional).  This is shit from police LEADERSHIP.  Not a single "bad apple" -- literally the head apple of the tree.

[Rougarou 594]

18 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

The problem is more fundamental than you may be considering. There are two options for private police incentives:

1. Incentivize arrests, convictions, etc. This is a bad idea for the obvious reasons we all know but is not the only problem with your idea. Clearly it brings into play fabricated crimes and so on because of the financial incentives to the private police force. These are the same kind of perverse incentives that cause a lot of the problems with the current system as officers, DAs, and other members of the justice system are rewarded based on those same metrics.

2. Incentivize lack of crime - You reward the private police force for lower crime rates. This is a problem for two reasons. The first is that they will simply overlook crimes because they are being rewarded for not reporting them. The second is that after this goes on for long enough the public will wonder why they're spending so much on a private police force when there is so little crime. Therefore the incentives would actively ask that the private police company make themselves obsolete. No good business mind is going to sign up for a situation where if they do their job well they end up being fired.

Thanks for the response. I responded to Brisket's post just this-- your point 2 is going to be the initial problem that is a counter-intuitive way to think about fixing the police. If you do the 2nd, you are necessarily going to incur more costs and risk exposure to crime. But I also think you are going to cut down on the inherent/systemic racism because you aren't going to be cracking down on the lowest hanging fruit anymore (poor, black people who are incarcerated at the highest probabilities because legal issues are like compounding interest. A common example is the one where someone gets one charge then you get a second because you gotta get the money to beat the first charge, and then you get a third because you were just speeding and all of a sudden your first two bite you in the butt, etc. into the vicious cycle). Also cops know who to profile for the path of least resistance for low hanging fruit arrests and harassment which is usually racist. The hope and the sociological hypothesis and eventual abstract in a paper for my idea on fixing this, is that sometime in the future, crime actually is lower because you are more lenient on it. It's a crazy idea, but it's a Ted Talk in the making if someone can do it and it works 😛

 

21 minutes ago, 'stache said:

You cannot convince me that the absolute worst of unregulated capitalism would not infect this proposal. The private prisons analogy is unavoidable. I'm sure they didn't start from the "ground up" with a policy that people in prison would be a financial benefit to private shareholders, but here we are, and private police would be the same.  The second you throw in profit and loss statements, it's no longer a police force, it's a business. As a practical matter, I think you would have a legal obstacle in delegating the state's police powers to a private corporation (which I believe is a problem with private prisons too but not as clearly as privatizing the active exercise of police powers).

Thanks for your response. I would argue that private prisons did not start from a place of radical transformation and disruption, but from a place to financially benefit private shareholders at the expense of chattel (from their POV). They were broken and ill-conceived from the word go as a corrupt/unethical/immoral way to make a lot of money on the underbelly of society. It's like how we sell our garbage to Malaysia under the guise of Recycling. Society doesn't know the difference, we feel good about it, out of sight and out of mind, but it's pure profit play and out of sight out of mind. Only the garbage in the private prison folks business model, are felons.

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Rougarou

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19103]

15 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

3 - hold my elected officials accountable. This is the most consequential thing that can be done. It needs to be a top issue for every council and mayoral candidate.

How do we do this when voter turnout is so abysmal?  I would be very interested to know of the protesters (the real protesters, not the looters) from the last 3-4 days have actually voted in elections they have been eligible to vote in.  Voter apathy in the US is absolutely horrendous, ESPECIALLY in state and local elections.  What is your proposal for how to deal with that?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19103]

15 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

3 - hold my elected officials accountable. This is the most consequential thing that can be done. It needs to be a top issue for every council and mayoral candidate.

Double post.  Sigh.

Edited June 1, 2020 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[Brisketexan 105152]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

How do we do this when voter turnout is so abysmal?  I would be very interested to know of the protesters (the real protesters, not the looters) from the last 3-4 days have actually voted in elections they have been eligible to vote in.  Voter apathy in the US is absolutely horrendous, ESPECIALLY in state and local elections.  What is your proposal for how to deal with that?

A few easy things.  Either move election day to a Saturday, or make it a mandatory holiday.  Make voter registration easier -- if you want to tie it to photo IDs, great....then we need to make getting a photo ID as easy as filling out a census form.  If we want everyone who is entitled to a photo ID to have one, then we should damned near go door-to-door, with instant machines to create valid IDs for all who qualify.

But honestly, the first one would be a huge difference maker.  Plenty of countries do so.   The only reason NOT to do so is because we don't want people to vote.

[BabaYaga 15300]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Warrior cop training is rather well known in the field.  Here's a case-specific discussion:

You may recall this training course for offering the advice that:

This sort of shit is a disease....and police leadership is fighting to KEEP IT.

The head of the national Fraternal Order of Police fought for (and got) a law BANNING the video recording of cops (later overturned as unconstitutional).  This is shit from police LEADERSHIP.  Not a single "bad apple" -- literally the head apple of the tree.

I don't think you've ever met Grossman.  Read one of his books.  Or know what they are about.  I have.  The books started with military PST and psychological issues resulting from combat and the taking of another life.  It's not going out looking to take life, but to reconcile that it can, and will happen, and how to deal with the stress, guilt, and anxiety that results from this.  It's a mindset book.  Like so many others.  Even upholstering your sidearm can result in strict departmental disciplinary action and weeks if not months of red tape and suspensions.  

Nor am I the guys biggest fan, but he's not feeding officers red meat, spinning them up, and sending them out for scalps as your quotes indicate.  That's a gross misrepresentation.  If you want to distill him down, he's basically re purposing the "Trolley Problem" and pawning it off as his own.....you are less apt to engage with people you know, etc.  Which forms the basis for more LE community involvement, etc.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19103]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

A few easy things.  Either move election day to a Saturday, or make it a mandatory holiday.  Make voter registration easier -- if you want to tie it to photo IDs, great....then we need to make getting a photo ID as easy as filling out a census form.  If we want everyone who is entitled to a photo ID to have one, then we should damned near go door-to-door, with instant machines to create valid IDs for all who qualify.

But honestly, the first one would be a huge difference maker.  Plenty of countries do so.   The only reason NOT to do so is because we don't want people to vote.

See, I guess I am a little more apathetic about your first suggestion.  I think there are a lot of people that are just lazy, and given the way early voting has worked (I know in Harris County, they had pollling places open on Saturday, and I believe even on Sundays), I just do not see moving election day to a weekend or even having it be a holiday would actually do much of anything.  I know others have talked about mail in voting, but I seriously doubt that that would increase turnout, as again, there seems to be a lack of motivation.  

 

[BabaYaga 15300]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A few easy things.  Either move election day to a Saturday, or make it a mandatory holiday.  Make voter registration easier -- if you want to tie it to photo IDs, great....then we need to make getting a photo ID as easy as filling out a census form.  If we want everyone who is entitled to a photo ID to have one, then we should damned near go door-to-door, with instant machines to create valid IDs for all who qualify.

But honestly, the first one would be a huge difference maker.  Plenty of countries do so.   The only reason NOT to do so is because we don't want people to vote.

Yep, India does this.  Dirty ass, rural India, and they have something like a 95% voter turnout YOY.  It can be done.  

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Do we truly need one police force a city the size of Houston with an ossified bureaucracy, union, policies and procedures. Why not break up HPD into several smaller departments within a cohesive geographic area. Have the Heights PD, Montrose PD, etc. Make it true community-based policing by requiring the cops to live in those neighborhoods and subsidize their housing in expensive parts of the city. This would break the power of the existing union and can institute much needed reforms with the new unions for these new neighborhood sized PD. There would be coordination for large events and could pool things like cars and equipment.

[Brisketexan 105152]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I don't think you've ever met Grossman.  Read one of his books.  Or know what they are about.  I have.  The books started with military PST and psychological issues resulting from combat and the taking of another life.  It's not going out looking to take life, but to reconcile that it can, and will happen, and how to deal with the stress, guilt, and anxiety that results from this.  It's a mindset book.  Like so many others.  Even upholstering your sidearm can result in strict departmental disciplinary action and weeks if not months of red tape and suspensions.  

Nor am I the guys biggest fan, but he's not feeding officers red meat, spinning them up, and sending them out for scalps as your quotes indicate.  That's a gross misrepresentation.  If you want to distill him down, he's basically re purposing the "Trolley Problem" and pawning it off as his own.....you are less apt to engage with people you know, etc.  Which forms the basis for more LE community involvement, etc.  

I have not.  But what I have seen is data-supported correlation between PDs that have heavily engaged in such training and higher use of force incidents.  And, I mean, I'm a human being who understands fear and anxiety.  Hell, I might even be an expert in the field, via experience. 

To the point that it's common sense that if you repeatedly beat into someone's head that every split second is a life-or-death moment, they are going to go through life as overstressed beasts hopped up on adrenaline and fear.  And when you are in that state, you are hyper-defensive and reactionary.

Although I fail to see what upholstering a sidearm has to do with it.  I mean, if I was to do so, I'd probably go with a classic cowhide on the grips, but you do you. (Yes, I see the typo.  I just think that a Sig with a tasteful paisley grip would be lovely).

[BabaYaga 15300]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have not.  But what I have seen is data-supported correlation between PDs that have heavily engaged in such training and higher use of force incidents.  And, I mean, I'm a human being who understands fear and anxiety.  Hell, I might even be an expert in the field, via experience. 

To the point that it's common sense that if you repeatedly beat into someone's head that every split second is a life-or-death moment, they are going to go through life as overstressed beasts hopped up on adrenaline and fear.  And when you are in that state, you are hyper-defensive and reactionary.

Although I fail to see what upholstering a sidearm has to do with it.  I mean, if I was to do so, I'd probably go with a classic cowhide on the grips, but you do you. (Yes, I see the typo.  I just think that a Sig with a tasteful paisley grip would be lovely).

I've seen the same data, as well as the rebukes that there is no causation and a thousand other variables were not entertained.  The point of the sidearm is the significant lengths departments go through to vet and review righteous and unrighteous shootings, firings, and other acts.  These are not cowboys and it's a long, intentionally painful process to have to endure.  EVERY time there is a physical altercation or a weapon is drawn, the line of sight from the very top is opened and they go through it as painfully and slowly as they can make it.  

[Iceman 2715]

3 hours ago, Doc Reeves said:

I’m not dismissing your position, but on this point you are wrong. 

That is an actual functional mandate of the prison system. 
 

 

Are you suggesting an increased likelihood of being arrested relative to the number of prisons? Behavior generally drives arrests, save for the bullshit at the crux of the racial discussion, driving while black; etc, etc.

If you are suggesting the number of prisons changes the prosecution and remedies AFTER the arrest, I’d be inclined to agree.

[BabaYaga 15300]

Update on the four dipshits:

Quote

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz announced Sunday evening that state Attorney General Keith Ellison will the prosecution against the former police officer charged in the killing of George Floyd, whose death last week has sparked nationwide protests against police brutality.

Ellison, a former Democratic congressman, will be assisted by Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman in any cases arising from the death of Floyd, who died after officials said Minneapolis Officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee onto Floyd's neck while Floyd pleaded with him, saying he couldn't breathe.

"We are going to bring to bear all the resources necessary to achieve justice in this case," Ellison said during a press briefing Sunday.