Defund the Police

[bad_teammate 13343]

7 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think the problem people have, or better stated, the problem I have (and I'm curious to know if I am alone on this) is when you drill down into it, is that "Defund the Police" feels dishonest / deceptive.

Thank you for being honest.

So much of the criticism of Defund is people completely lying about their intentions and positions. You disdain the people saying it and think they're two-faced liars. Good, you have an actual discernible position that isn't just paternalistic concern-trolling.

None of this "I want what you want, I'm just SO CONCERNED with your tone!" horseshit from SNL-style liberals. I hope everyone who agrees with you is as direct and honest as you are from now on so we can have a real discussion.

Great post. Refreshing.

Quote

"Defund the Police" allows people to talk out of both sides of their mouth because of the excuse, "well, sure.. some of the people marching (and are YOU marching? /scold /fingerwag) are meaning it to be literal and they want the entire police department to move out of their city and give their building to the homeless as a shelter but that's just because it was a grassroots, bottom-up slogan that is inherently nebulous and vague and organic and can't fit in your centrist hitler gas chamber box."

which then quickly becomes

"any toddler with a brain wrinkle can see that Defund the Police is just meant to convey a completely different meaning and trying to define it and standardize around a shared understanding and meaning for all, just is another example of how marginalizing the patriarchal white hegemonic murderers are like I've been saying!"

Defund the Police and Abolish the Police are two different movements/ideas.

Edited December 4, 2020 by bad_teammate

[Js1 85925]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

It's possible to believe that it's not the ideal slogan and also that much of the criticism of it is shit the Republicans would be saying about literally any other slogan, and that the efficacy of their use of activist slogans in attacks against Democratic candidates depends less on the slogan itself and more on the fact that Dems are fucking idiots who have no idea how to counter those attacks (regardless of the content of the attacks). I mean look at this shit:

 

There's no excuse for this.

Isn't there a law of diminishing returns when it comes to money?  Maine is not an expensive state to advertise in.  Democrats, trying to be responsible, didn't need to pay big GOTV canvassing operations.   

She raised so much money solely because of who her opponent was (like Beto, Jamie Harrison and Amy McGrath).  

[TornACL 7767]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

That's some fucking horseshit.  I donated to that campaign.  They should distribute that back out to all donors.

What DOES happen to those funds in those situations?

[Js1 85925]

2 minutes ago, TornACL said:

What DOES happen to those funds in those situations?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/042716/what-happens-campaign-funds-after-elections.asp

No personal use after debts are settled (sorry Donald!) 

Can be:

• Donated to charity, as long as the candidate does not receive compensation from the charity and it does not benefit the candidate
• Donated to another federal candidate ($2000 max) or state/local candidates
• Gifts/donations of nominal value to anyone besides candidate's family
• Unlimited transfers to local, state or national policy party committees
• Transfer to a future campaign for the same candidate

I think Biff can ask for a refund if he wanted. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

5 minutes ago, TornACL said:

What DOES happen to those funds in those situations?

Curious to know this as well. 

Edit: thanks JS1

Edited December 4, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 143]

20 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Thank you for being honest.

So much of the criticism of Defund is people completely lying about their intentions and positions. You disdain the people saying it and think they're two-faced liars. Good, you have an actual discernible position that isn't just paternalistic concern-trolling.

None of this "I want what you want, I'm just SO CONCERNED with your tone!" horseshit from SNL-style liberals. I hope everyone who agrees with you is as direct and honest as you are from now on so we can have a real discussion.

Great post. Refreshing.

Defund the Police and Abolish the Police are two different movements/ideas.

You got it, my dude. 

To your last point, which was pretty declaratively stated, my experience is that there is a bunch of conflating and confusing and borrowing and sharing of the DTP and ATP movements/ideas (especially outside of the engaged, "woke", or active 20% that trailblaze and as you get into the 80% of the mainstream that make up the opportunistic, young-and-angry-and-not-much-else and chaos-sowing as well as the barely interested or aware, long tail of folks who have spent maybe 3 minutes on a video clip and 4 minutes thinking about it, but know it's a popular, cultural, trendy and maybe even "right" thing), which primarily feeds why I feel like DTP is such a deceptive/dishonest battlecry. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 143]

double post

Edited December 4, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[bad_teammate 13343]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

To your last point, which was pretty declaratively stated, my experience is that there is a bunch of conflating and confusing and borrowing and sharing of the DTP and ATP movements/ideas (especially outside of the engaged, "woke", or active 20% that trailblaze and as you get into the 80% of the mainstream that make up the opportunistic, young-and-angry-and-not-much-else and chaos-sowing as well as the barely interested or aware, long tail of folks who have spent maybe 3 minutes on a video clip and 4 minutes thinking about it, but know it's a popular, cultural, trendy and maybe even "right" thing), which primarily feeds why I feel like DTP is such a deceptive/dishonest battlecry. 

Hanlon's Razor
You're assuming negative intentions where ignorance and confusion suffice.

- The 80% you reference aren't really worth concerning. Not because I loathe them, but because they by definition are not the movers. Grousing about this group is the realm of right-wingers and it's a waste of anyone else's time unless the purpose is to distract from the 20%. Speaking of...

- The 20% are who we should talk to/listen to and who we should discuss. These are the people from whom we should gain understanding about Defund/Abolish and who should define Defund/Abolish for us. When I mentioned "listen and support" upthread this is who I was talking about. We listen to these people. We support their goals and hopes for a better future for their communities.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

16 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Hanlon's Razor
You're assuming negative intentions where ignorance and confusion suffice.

- The 80% you reference aren't really worth concerning. Not because I loathe them, but because they by definition are not the movers. Grousing about this group is the realm of right-wingers and it's a waste of anyone else's time unless the purpose is to distract from the 20%. Speaking of...

- The 20% are who we should talk to/listen to and who we should discuss. These are the people from whom we should gain understanding about Defund/Abolish and who should define Defund/Abolish for us. When I mentioned "listen and support" upthread this is who I was talking about. We listen to these people. We support their goals and hopes for a better future for their communities.

Believe it or not I agree with you here as you outline how things should work and what the happy path would look like. However, things aren't as they should, and much like the insane-asylum has co-opted a lot of the right wing via misinformation memes and virality, I think we are in a new paradigm as a people (thanks to the lightspeed advancement of technology) that the 80% will complicate, if not completely undermine like an infestation of termites in your walls, if not managed well. There is no such thing as the public intellectual anymore or a 20% coalition of leaders because that's not how we are wired anymore, imo.

I'm a center-to-right (or right-to-center, according to some) kind of guy. I've made no secret of that in other posts and I've tried to be a reasonable person where people have not wanted to be reasonable. I say that to say, I've seen--like a lot of other folks here-- what that 80% with both honest-yet-ignorant-and-dangerous intentions and calculated agendas (and sprinkle in a bunch of mental illness) can do to a rational and reasonable platform meant to support and advance the needs of a rational and reasonable population.

Now that the party power dynamics have flipped in the head office, I think you are going to see the same thing happen to the Democrat party. The 80%, if not managed well, will corrupt and embarrass and tank the 20%, with their own brand of ignorant earnestness and agendas and mental illness. Same but different. That is where the slogan comes in and why I think it should matter (see, I am an idealist like you). 

But then again, maybe you don't care and think the Democrat party should also rot from the inside out like the GOP has, because out of the ashes of both will rise the Phoenix of Progressivism? 

Edited December 4, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[bad_teammate 13343]

6 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Now that the party power dynamics have flipped in the head office, I think you are going to see the same thing happen to the Democrat party.

I disagree. The natures of the two party bases are just too different.

Let's call it Trumpism vs AOCism to be reductionist/simplistic, then I don't see a real parallel here.

Trumpism is hateful and violent. He came down the gold escalator to say that we were being raped by Mexicans and his fans shoot up Wal-Marts and caravan into cities to beat people. The cultural hatred they have for their opponents IS the entire point.

AOCism, at its worst, doesn't really care about Trumpy areas. It's hatreds are institutional (corporations, police) not racial/ethnic. AOCism gets in HUGE trouble for wanting to embrace unwoke white voting bases in the exurbs/suburbs via economic populism.

If your concern is woke id.pol taking over the Democratic Party, then you're too late. Woke id.pol is mainstream Democratic politics and it has been for a long time (see Hillary: "WILL BREAKING UP THE BANKS SOLVE RACISM?!") AOCism is the solution to that problem.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

I disagree. The natures of the two party bases are just too different.

Let's call it Trumpism vs AOCism to be reductionist/simplistic, then I don't see a real parallel here.

Trumpism is hateful and violent. He came down the gold escalator to say that we were being raped by Mexicans and his fans shoot up Wal-Marts and caravan into cities to beat people. The cultural hatred they have for their opponents IS the entire point.

AOCism, at its worst, doesn't really care about Trumpy areas. It's hatreds are institutional (corporations, police) not racial/ethnic. AOCism gets in HUGE trouble for wanting to embrace unwoke white voting bases in the exurbs/suburbs via economic populism.

If your concern is woke id.pol taking over the Democratic Party, then you're too late. Woke id.pol is mainstream Democratic politics and it has been for a long time (see Hillary: "WILL BREAKING UP THE BANKS SOLVE RACISM?!") AOCism is the solution to that problem.

I respect your disagreement and will just say I disagree completely with the this. I think the reduction/simplification made, at the very least, is a single use case and not indicative of the entire program of what I hypothesized. 

Like you, I have the privilege to say "welp, guess we will just have to wait and see and let it play out :)" in relative comfort, no matter which way the winds blow and being right or wrong won't materially impact my small, mediocre life. 

Unlike you, I don't care to use that privilege to jump into any particular political fray because I'm not particularly passionate enough about anything more than or equal to what is inside the four walls of my home and hearth. This healthy "selfishness" as it's misunderstood (because it's really other-focused, on family, friends, community, etc.), is what I think people distort and emotionally contort to characterize as the "Oh you are the FUPM, I got Mines, etc." of centrists/center-to-righters.

So I guess what I'm talking myself into here, is that ultimately you are right. It is, and it always will be, a class / hierarchal conflict and race, creed, color, sex, gender, etc. are all just variabilzed and not germane or meaningful to the actual problem. It's the Have's and the Have Not's just with a different WinAmp skin.

And that's pretty much the gist of it (parents are pissed but the kids love it, Nine millimeter heater stashed in two seaters with meat cleavers; I don't blame you, I wouldn't let Hailie listen to me neither #DaDa).

Edited December 4, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[bad_teammate 13343]

Brie is wrong.... Cori Bush said "defund" a few times and won. Maybe not "ran on".

 

[bad_teammate 13343]

 

[Brisketexan 105700]

Without rehashing the strategic issues with the name of the concept etc., here is an example of 1) what the concept actually means, 2) showing that it works, and 3) that it even has the support of....the police themselves (35% of the calls to this resource came from cops in the field responding to a call, and realizing that there was another resource out there better equipped to deal with it):  https://denverite.com/2021/02/02/in-the-first-six-months-of-health-care-professionals-replacing-police-officers-no-one-they-encountered-was-arrested/?fbclid=IwAR06txiiVUuREu32JqGeWiEVXlUutMHGzF-vtUOHEHi08VDF_5-kzqDp5RQ

Quote

A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers has proven successful in its first six months, according to a progress report.

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police and or led to arrests or jail time.

The civilian team handled close to six incidents a day from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m., Monday through Friday, in high-demand neighborhoods. STAR does not yet have enough people or vans to respond to every nonviolent incident, but about 3 percent of calls for DPD service, or over 2,500 incidents, were worthy of the alternative approach, according to the report.

.......

“We run an unbelievable amount of calls for such a limited pilot program and have had some really good outcomes on those calls,” Sailon said.

The policing alternative empowers behavioral health experts to call the shots, even when police officers are around.

Sailon said she remembers a call last year in which a woman was experiencing mental health symptoms at a 7-Eleven. The clerk had called the police — the woman was technically trespassing — but when the police arrived, they called Sailon.

“We got there and told police they could leave,” Sailon said. “We didn’t need them there.”

The woman, who was unhoused, was upset about some issues she was having on her prepaid Social Security card. Sailon helped her into the van where the two “game-planned” a solution before the STAR crew drove her to a day shelter for some food, she said.

“So we were sort of able to solve those problems in the moment for her and got the police back in service, dealing with a law enforcement call,” Sailon said.

The fact that the police officers even called the STAR team tells Matthew Lunn, a doctor in charge of DPD’s strategic initiatives, that the program is working. About 35 percent of calls to STAR personnel come from police officers, according to the report.

Everywhere that these alternative intervention/interaction programs are tried.....they are successful.  They reduce violent conflict, lead to better outcomes, and don't overstress police who can and should be focused on other matters.

But no, nope, no way -- the "we love law and order" crowd wants more cops, more MRAPs, more tough guys, that will show 'em!  It's just so fucking stupid.

[HenryJames 66368]

Quote

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police or led to arrests or jail time.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28852]

On 2/3/2021 at 3:46 PM, Brisketexan said:

more MRAPs

Thanks Dubya. 

[HenryJames 66368]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Defunded

[pyrohornIII 4842]

 

33 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Defunded

In Texas, would that settlement be capped at $250,000 due to the tort reform from the 80s?   

[GopherRock 1773]

 

 

[bad_teammate 13343]

Preparing for Chauvin's exoneration.

[StassneyHorn 6703]

In random cop news, Art Acevedo is leaving Houston for Miami. 

[HenryJames 66368]

 

[bad_teammate 13343]

Policing has to be defunded and reconstructed.

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Daunte Wright police shooting: Body-cam; Taser; Brooklyn Center (usatoday.com)

 

We'll never get 'defund,' but I'm all for 'disarm' street cops.   Of course, we won't get that either.  Oh well.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by MC Fresh Breath

[cactusflinthead 27615]

 

[Satchel 6949]

The Dems should adopt refund the police as it’s talking point and exploit every opportunity to tell people what it means.

[HenryJames 66368]

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21332]

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

This is exactly my take, from the last two tweets of that chain:

Are there good cops?

I used to think so, but until they stand up against bad policies, bad training, bigotry and implicit bias, and bad cops, then no, there doesn't appear to be any left. We need to overhaul the system. We need accountability & proper training.

[Neonmoon 38130]

We definitely to overhaul the system. I don’t understand why anyone would be against improving police performance, including police themselves. 

It has to be a complete overhaul emphasizing 

1. Deescalation - this isn’t fallujah. The goal is to keep the peace. Stop escalating shit when people question your authority. 

2. Efficiency - what I mean by this, is stop sending cops to do social work. Send the social workers in coordination with peace officers if necessary to address mental health calls and domestic disputes. 

3. Civilian Oversight - no more of this police ourselves horseshit. Internal affairs cannot be current or former police officers. Civilian committees review bad shootings and conduct.

4. Gut the Unions - no more holding cities hostage because you run a local militia 

5. Mental Health - being a police officer is difficult. The general public is full of crazy shitbags and I’m sure many officers have PTSD or Trauma. Make the get routine therapy. Not just when they shoot a kid. 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105700]

We definitely to overhaul the system. I don’t understand why anyone would be against improving police performance, including police themselves. 
It has to be a complete overhaul emphasizing 
1. Deescalation - this isn’t fallujah. The goal is to keep the peace. Stop escalating shit when people question your authority. 
2. Efficiency - what I mean by this, is stop sending cops to do social work. Send the social workers in coordination with peace officers if necessary to address mental health calls and domestic disputes. 
3. Civilian Oversight - no more of this police ourselves horseshit. Internal affairs cannot be current or former police officers. Civilian committees review bad shootings and conduct.
4. Gut the Unions - no more holding cities hostage because you run a local militia 
5. Mental Health - being a police officer is difficult. The general public is full of crazy shitbags and I’m sure many officers have PTSD or Trauma. Make the get routine therapy. Not just when they shoot a kid. 
 
 

Alternate take: when one of your senior officers fucks up and blows someone away having mistaken her gun for a taser....immediately hoist the “blue line” flag in an open statement of defiance.

That’s a thing that happened.

The police will never accept reform. Everything you posted is a pipe dream. They are at war. Against the rest of us. When someone repeatedly and loudly tells you who they are and what they believe in, you should believe them.

[Neonmoon 38130]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Alternate take: when one of your senior officers fucks up and blows someone away having mistaken her gun for a taser....immediately hoist the “blue line” flag in an open statement of defiance.

That’s a thing that happened.

The police will never accept reform. Everything you posted is a pipe dream. They are at war. Against the rest of us. When someone repeatedly and loudly tells you who they are and what they believe in, you should believe them.

You can’t achieve anything by giving up 

[Brisketexan 105700]

You can’t achieve anything by giving up 

Of course not. Fight. Fight to the bitter end.

Just don’t expect to win. Don’t lie to yourself.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Re-aired from last June.

Throughline - History Of Policing In America (mostly in the context of today's race struggles)

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/985039407/policing-in-america

[UpperWestside 6225]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:
Just don’t expect to win. Don’t lie to yourself.

The mindset that we have where everything has a winner or a loser is also part of the issues we have within society. When you operate in an atmosphere where you are either one or the other you are going to have the group of people deemed to have lost be upset and unwilling a lot of the time to conform and want to be part of a anything to do with the “winners”. 
 

If we want actual reform it will take everyone coming together to enact rules and legislation that is for the betterment of all of our citizens. That means dialogue between groups of people who have a distrust of one another. It’ll take some honesty from each side to make any headway. We go crossways as humans when we stop having a dialogue. The winning and losing mindset can be left to sports where it belongs. I want to see every single person of color in this country be treated by law enforcement the same as I am. There has to be a better way to get there. I think it involves more interactions of police officers with the people they are sworn to protect and serve. When I see police standing around on their phones collecting a paycheck while openly showing they are mentally checked out of their job I look at that situation and think that were that same officer ingratiating himself to the area by speaking with the people who live there it would make a world of difference. Instead we have a police force of 36000 or so in NYC with little to zero training in community relations. If police wonder why they look like the enemy it’s because of a complete lack of any ability to show they care about the community. This is just one aspect of it to me, but being able to effectively communicate in a positive way with your fellow citizens would go a long way towards beginning the process of healing divisions within communities across this country that have been unfairly targeted for decades now solely because of ethnicity.

And, you know, it would be REALLY helpful not to shoot someone you say you meant to taser.

[Ted Lange 16158]

2 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

This is exactly my take, from the last two tweets of that chain:

Are there good cops?

I used to think so, but until they stand up against bad policies, bad training, bigotry and implicit bias, and bad cops, then no, there doesn't appear to be any left. We need to overhaul the system. We need accountability & proper training.

Yep the @DonkeyCigars aka Cripsy who fucking howl about good Muslims not speaking out won’t say a fucking word about the criminal police situation in our country.  Fucking coward ass phonies. 

[UpperWestside 6225]

23 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Yep the @DonkeyCigars aka Cripsy who fucking howl about good Muslims not speaking out won’t say a fucking word about the criminal police situation in our country.  Fucking coward ass phonies. 

I find that it’s best to just not worry about the folks who want to sit this stuff out. Those of us that want to see change take place in how police treat people of color can go about doing our part until we see the reform we want in our local communities as well as nationwide. Staying positive and worrying about the things you can do usually lead to a better outcome. 

[Ted Lange 16158]

That’s fair.  But crispy/donkey guy is a bitch. 

[Ted Lange 16158]

As are all the DT cowards that decry unions but suck off the police union 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

30 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I find that it’s best to just not worry about the folks who want to sit this stuff out. Those of us that want to see change take place in how police treat people of color can go about doing our part until we see the reform we want in our local communities as well as nationwide. Staying positive and worrying about the things you can do usually lead to a better outcome. 

UpperWestside, I’m not sure what happened or what has changed with you, but I’ve noticed you are way more wise, and zen, and as you’ve changed your communication style you’ve been making a lot of sense lately. I have no comment or input for the topic or conversation, but I wanted to let you know I’ve enjoyed your posts the last few weeks/month and there was a time I would have never thought that I would ever say that.

Edited April 13, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[pyrohornIII 4842]

5 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

UpperWestside, I’m not sure what happened or what has changed with you, but I’ve noticed you are way more wise, and zen, and as you’ve changed your communication style you’ve been making a lot of sense lately. I have no comment or input for the topic or conversation, but I wanted to let you know I’ve enjoyed your posts the last few weeks/month and there was a time I would have never thought that I would ever say that.

What is "Something no one will ever say about DC for 200" Alex?

[DonkeyCigars 143]

41 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

What is "Something no one will ever say about DC for 200" Alex?

Y'ouch!

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

The video was just released of the Adam Toledo shooting. Adam was 13 years old when he died. Mayor Lightfoot viewed the video and observed she did not see a weapon when he turned at the officer's command. Warning: it is graphic. First minute and a half is officer in car. Chase ensues closer to 1:50. Very sad.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[lmao 178]

18 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

The video was just released of the Adam Toledo shooting. Adam was 13 years old when he died. Mayor Lightfoot viewed the video and observed she did not see a weapon when he turned at the officer's command. Warning: it is graphic. First minute and a half is officer in car. Chase ensues closer to 1:50. Very sad.

 

 

https://kutv.com/news/local/family-of-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police-sues-department

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police

Can't find a follow-up on this but SLC police shot a fleeing 13-year old autistic boy 11 times. He somehow survived. His mom initally called for mental health workers to help with a crisis and yet they still end up unloading on the kid. Don't believe the officers were disciplined either.

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

I thought this bump would be because of Rashida's tweet being roundly ridiculed, but nope.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, DonkeyCigars said:

I thought this bump would be because of Rashida's tweet being roundly ridiculed, but nope.

Yeah, the cops can’t stop killing people long enough to ridicule Rashida’s tweet. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

The victim had issues, but there is little doubt that how incidents are portrayed has a wide range:

Rittenhouse traveled with a gun to another city and emerged unscathed.

[406W30th 1111]

I highly recommend anyone interested in abolition to pick up a copy of Mariame Kaba's excellent book "We Do This Til We Free Us". It's uplifting, if grim at times, and clearly lays out the needs for police abolition and the goals of organizers who seek to dismantle of our horrific, dystopian carceral state.