Defund the Police

[closetohumping 17453]

4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

training cops to curve bullets like Angelina Jolie in that one movie so they can just shoot knives out of people's hands while driving down the street

Just fire the warning shot straight up in the air.  Worst case you hit a bird.  In the unlikely event you hit a plane, it is very unlikely that you would hit a passenger or take down the plane.

[Francisco 2.0 32395]

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Francisco 2.0

[Beau Vine 54312]

 

[StassneyHorn 6624]

“I smell alcohol on your breath” should be a mandated response by people to shitty cops to get others down there.

[Biff Tannen 45695]

On 4/22/2021 at 7:26 PM, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31512]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:32 PM, pyrohornIII said:

 

In Texas, would that settlement be capped at $250,000 due to the tort reform from the 80s?   

No.  The $250k maximum is for tort claims against the state, which only applies to a very narrow category of torts, that does not include "police brutality."  State entities enjoy complete immunity from such claims, except for those founded on 42 USC 1983.

And that's not a product of tort reform, which didn't happen in the 80s anyway.  The TTA was enacted in 1985, but actually made it easier to recover against the state for that narrow category of claims, most notably motor vehicle accidents.  It's an exception to the doctrine of sovereign immunity, which protects most state actors (individuals and entities) from both suit and liability for torts that occur while acting in an official capacity.

Edited April 25, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

Colorado officers who violently arrested 73-year-old with dementia laughed about incident afterward, video shows
The officers fractured Karen Garner’s arm and dislocated her shoulder, according to federal lawsuit

The Loveland police officers who violently arrested a 73-year-old woman with dementia last year laughed about the incident afterward and congratulated themselves about the arrest, video released Monday by the woman’s lawyer shows.

The aggressive arrest not only put Karen Garner in a hospital, but also drastically worsened her dementia symptoms, her family said in an interview Monday, speaking publicly for the first time. Garner barely communicates now. Her family placed her in an assisted living facility in August because they no longer believed she would be safe living alone.

 

Quote

The officers fractured Garner’s arm and dislocated her shoulder during the arrest, her family said.

“Ready for the pop?” an officer identified by Garner’s lawyer as Hopp said to other officers while re-watching the footage together.

“What popped?” another officer asked.

“I think it was her shoulder,” Hopp responded.

In the video from the booking area, Hopp can also be heard saying, “I can’t believe I threw a 73-year-old on the ground,” and saying he loved watching the body camera footage of his fight with the elderly woman.

 

 

Quote

 

“I just feel like I didn’t protect her,” Alissa Swartz, her daughter, said. “I wasn’t there to keep her safe from the police, who are supposed to protect her.”

“They could’ve walked her home,” Steward said.

 

Quote

Schielke on Monday added two more officers — Tyler Blackett and Antolina Hill — as defendants in the lawsuit, alleging they knew Garner was injured but did not provide her medical care while she was held in the booking cell. The federal lawsuit alleges Garner did not receive medical care for more than six hours after her arrest.

 

Colorado officers who violently arrested 73-year-old with dementia laughed incident after, video shows (denverpost.com)

 

Not sure how you reform something so broken.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

1 hour ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

 

Colorado officers who violently arrested 73-year-old with dementia laughed incident after, video shows (denverpost.com)

 

Not sure how you reform something so broken.

Jesus Christ, that’s cruel. I’ve dislocated my shoulder before and hurts like a motherfucker. Those pigs are sadists.

[Neonmoon 38129]

How to explain the police mentality: 

Imagine the dorks who went to Aggy or who would go to Aggy in every high school in America getting badges. 
 

inferiority complex + racism = Aggy

[hookemATL 11801]

Straight up psychotic/sociopathic behavior. FAC.
 

Every last one of them needs to have the shit beaten out of them by Betty White. 

[Biff Tannen 45695]

1 hour ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

 

Colorado officers who violently arrested 73-year-old with dementia laughed incident after, video shows (denverpost.com)

 

Not sure how you reform something so broken.

These are sick people. Cops should be forced to have regular psychological evaluations. 

[hornmpa96 2619]

41 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

How to explain the police mentality: 

Imagine the dorks who went to Aggy or who would go to Aggy in every high school in America getting badges. 
 

inferiority complex + racism = Aggy

This group wanted to go to A&M and couldn’t get in and then flunked out of SFA on their way to a government paycheck.

[FOXHOUND 1034]

If they defund the police, how will they use all of their unnecessary military toys to fight Hydra? 

Edited April 27, 2021 by FOXHOUND

[staboner 4984]

man thats rough. sick people, as noted. 

no clue where to even begin. the sick ones aren't the majority - or at least I like to believe that - but the majority participates in culture that gives the sickos cover. absolute fucking mess. 

say it as i have always said in this thread, and yeah not the point, wish it was called something other than defund. you can't give the bootlickers even the slightest string to hold onto (assuming you care about changing their minds versus just outraging)

you homies be good and chill. don't call the cops but if you have to - at least know this - they don't have nukes yet. 

 

[UpperWestside 6172]

12 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

 

Colorado officers who violently arrested 73-year-old with dementia laughed incident after, video shows (denverpost.com)

 

Not sure how you reform something so broken.

It’s possible to do it, but oh boy is it going to be extraordinarily difficult to do, especially in police departments like this one. You have to keep pushing for reforms so that cops who do this are out on their backside as well as serving some serious jail time for assaults like that.

[Bama Chick 28596]

This is local to me and I’m genuinely shocked by this verdict. Thrilled but shocked.

Cliff Notes -

Suicidal man with gun to his head.

One cop attempting to deescalate.

This cop pushes past other cop and shots the suicidal man after being there 11 seconds.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

27 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

This is local to me and I’m genuinely shocked by this verdict. Thrilled but shocked.
 

 

Cliff Notes -

Suicidal man with gun to his head.

One cop attempting to deescalate.

This cop pushes past other cop and shots the suicidal man after being there 11 seconds.

 

Huntsville is relatively cosmopolitan for Alabama, is it not? Still, I suppose Birmingham is the most cosmopolitan and it might surprise me there.  My information about Alabama demographics and juries is pretty speculative, though.  

[Bama Chick 28596]

Oh yeah - Huntsville has the third highest per capita rate of PhDs, trailing Silicon Valley and the North Carolina Triangle.

But it’s centered around aerospace and defense companies and contains Redstone Arsenal. Educated and smart but all those fields skew conservative.

But it’s also got a shitton of very red hillbilly territory.

It’s Mo Brooks home turf FFS.

Huntsville is probably 55/45 red to blue.

Birmingham is probably 75/25 blue to red. Much larger Black population in Birmingham.

So, yeah, the verdict could have gone either way and I expected him to get off.

[ChiTownDoc 21154]

Call it ‘Refund the People’.   It’s all optics w the term.  We know what needs to be done.  

[Bama Chick 28596]

Uh, yeah. Huntsville PD is a fucking joke. Defund their sorry asses.



A TRIED AND CONVICTED MURDERER GETS PAID ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE?????

[Both Tacos 1806]

Blame goes to the Unions, not the department.

[Bama Chick 28596]

The Union is The Department.

Police and fire unions are unique to all other unions - they aren’t antagonistic to management. They are management.

And the damn chief of police came out and publicly stated he still stood behind his murdering subordinate and criticized the jury the day of the verdict.

And don’t get me started on the lying bullshittery they got caught doing this summer during the BLM protests.

[staboner 4984]

On 5/8/2021 at 2:58 AM, Bama Chick said:

This is local to me and I’m genuinely shocked by this verdict. Thrilled but shocked.
 

 

Cliff Notes -

Suicidal man with gun to his head.

One cop attempting to deescalate.

This cop pushes past other cop and shots the suicidal man after being there 11 seconds.

 

holy shit thats funny / sad. torbushes

Edited May 11, 2021 by staboner

[Buzzrock 14935]

Portland: “Just kidding!”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonlive.com/news/2021/05/amid-calls-to-defund-the-police-most-portland-residents-want-police-presence-maintained-or-increased-poll-finds.html%3FoutputType%3Damp

Actually I think this is just an example of why you don’t govern by social media. There is a lot wrong with American policing, you can find my opinions about that in many threads, but the idea that less law enforcement will solve those issues is dumb.

[bad_teammate 13220]

Good thing defund isn't just about having less law enforcement.

[UpperWestside 6172]

On 4/26/2021 at 8:33 PM, Biff Tannen said:

These are sick people. Cops should be forced to have regular psychological evaluations. 

I would advocate bi-yearly mental health screenings as well as a mental health wellness check for any encounter they are in that turns violent. The Wild West era of policing needs to come to a screeching halt. 

[softlynow 1816]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Good thing defund isn't just about having less law enforcement.

The best thing would be for this stupid slogan to simply be forgotten as another example of how shitty progressive activists usually are at politics. 

[Satchel 6938]

3 minutes ago, softlynow said:

The best thing would be for this stupid slogan to simply be forgotten as another example of how shitty progressive activists usually are at politics. 

Sad but true,

[bad_teammate 13220]

12 hours ago, softlynow said:

The best thing would be for this stupid slogan to simply be forgotten as another example of how shitty progressive activists usually are at politics. 

Why? So we could focus on the really super successful ones like... ?

Defund is doing great. In a very short amount of time it's radically shifted the framing on acceptable discussion regarding policing in America. Fantastic stuff.

[hobbes2702 13049]

13 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

Portland: “Just kidding!”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonlive.com/news/2021/05/amid-calls-to-defund-the-police-most-portland-residents-want-police-presence-maintained-or-increased-poll-finds.html%3FoutputType%3Damp

Actually I think this is just an example of why you don’t govern by social media. There is a lot wrong with American policing, you can find my opinions about that in many threads, but the idea that less law enforcement will solve those issues is dumb.

You have no clue what defund the police is

[hobbes2702 13049]

12 hours ago, softlynow said:

The best thing would be for this stupid slogan to simply be forgotten as another example of how shitty progressive activists usually are at politics. 

Or you could just educate yourself on what it means rather than counting on a slogan

[Buzzrock 14935]

You’re so fun Hobbes 

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

55 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You have no clue what defund the police is

Nor how to post a proper URL. 

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

5 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Defund the police really did mean defund and reduce the police to the fringe left people who first started the slogan.  Reasonable people on the left tried to co-opt and rewrite the slogan to say it meant something more realistic and appealing (without having to directly tell the fringe activists they’re insane and to stop saying defund the police).  

The slogan is bad, the original idea was what it said it was, and dropping the slogan would be a much better alternative than pretending its originators didn’t know what words meant when they thought it up.

Names. I want names.

[bad_teammate 13220]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Defund the police really did mean defund and reduce the police to the fringe left people who first started the slogan.  Reasonable people on the left tried to co-opt and rewrite the slogan to say it meant something more realistic and appealing (without having to directly tell the fringe activists they’re insane and to stop saying defund the police).  

The slogan is bad, the original idea was what it said it was, and dropping the slogan would be a much better alternative than pretending its originators didn’t know what words meant when they thought it up.

concern troll is concerned

Regarding the bold, cite your sources.

You won't, I predict, so have some information to help you...

Abolition of the carceral state (police, jails, etc...) isn't a new idea. (Go to P. 105 to see exactly how this kind of thinking operates and how it already deals with the obvious "WELL WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!?" objection.)

"Forget about reform, it's time to talk about abolishing jails and prisons in American society . . . Still—abolition? Where do you put the prisoners? The 'criminals'? What's the alternative? First, having no alternative at all would create less crime than the present criminal training centers do. Second, the only full alternative is building the kind of society that does not need prisons: A decent redistribution of power and income so as to put out the hidden fire of burning envy that now flames up in crimes of property—both burglary by the poor and embezzlement by the affluent. And a decent sense of community that can support, reintegrate and truly rehabilitate those who suddenly become filled with fury or despair, and that can face them not as objects—'criminals'—but as people who have committed illegal acts, as have almost all of us."

 

[bad_teammate 13220]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Names. I want names.

lol good fucking luck

[bad_teammate 13220]

You just quoted someone who is arguing that "defund the police" means doing a lot more than simply defunding the police.

What argument are you even making? Do you have any idea?

 

[bad_teammate 13220]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

The person who also talked about a world without police and no punitive measures.  That organization and others on the fringe left talk about defund the police in the context of … defunding and eventually eliminating police.  

Yet again, making shit up. Taking something you vaguely researched and then putting the most uncharitable mischaracterization you feel you can get away with.

I know you're just being a dishonest troll and you're already scared of the conversation because your ignorant bitterness is so open and embarrassing, but I'll ask you a few questions...

What do you think the man means by...

- "safety that is controlled and is led by our community"?
Does this mean literally zero effort to enforce laws and rules?

- "that focuses on transformation and transformative justice"?
Does this mean no options for punitive measures ever?

Inside trolls like longhornmatt is the paternalistic (and often very racist) belief that these communities are too stupid to even understand what they are asking for. They can abstract this racial paternalism with sneering references to "the left", but the reality is that these abolitionist movements are largely and historically black and white conservatives have a very long history of hiding their racism behind anti-left politics (often hiding it even from themselves).

[Willfully Horn 8039]

59 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Second, the only full alternative is building the kind of society that does not need prisons:

That’s a novel idea to me. Setting aside property crime, and indulgent weakness, the existence of predators, human predators, makes me skeptical of the seriousness of such a proposal.

That said, prisons in our country are a spiraling descent of immorality, without factoring inmates into the equation, at all. Starting with each one of us who has hoped that something worse than having freedoms stripped would befall someone else. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Failed to contract

[hobbes2702 13049]

1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

Defund the police really did mean defund and reduce the police to the fringe left people who first started the slogan.  Reasonable people on the left tried to co-opt and rewrite the slogan to say it meant something more realistic and appealing (without having to directly tell the fringe activists they’re insane and to stop saying defund the police).  

The slogan is bad, the original idea was what it said it was, and dropping the slogan would be a much better alternative than pretending its originators didn’t know what words meant when they thought it up.

Let’s see some evidence for that claim.

You realize the first place in the country to defund The police added more cops right? 

[hobbes2702 13049]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

You’re so fun Hobbes 

Be informed. It’s not that hard.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Yet again, making shit up. Taking something you vaguely researched and then putting the most uncharitable mischaracterization you feel you can get away with.

I know you're just being a dishonest troll and you're already scared of the conversation because your ignorant bitterness is so open and embarrassing, but I'll ask you a few questions...

What do you think the man means by...

- "safety that is controlled and is led by our community"?
Does this mean literally zero effort to enforce laws and rules?

- "that focuses on transformation and transformative justice"?
Does this mean no options for punitive measures ever?

Inside trolls like longhornmatt is the paternalistic (and often very racist) belief that these communities are too stupid to even understand what they are asking for. They can abstract this racial paternalism with sneering references to "the left", but the reality is that these abolitionist movements are largely and historically black and white conservatives have a very long history of hiding their racism behind anti-left politics (often hiding it even from themselves).

His point was that the slogan "defund the police" originated with people who want to abolish the police.  So they literally meant defund the police as close to zero as possible, and preferably abolish police entirely.

As nice a utopian desire as the absence of police may be, it's not politically realistic anywhere in the US.  And probably not realistic in any sense anyplace on earth of any size and population.

Because abolition of police won't get traction in any real world jurisdiction in the US, the adjacency of "defund the police" is a shitty political slogan if the realistic desire is to diminish the number, power, and influence of police officers and departments and replace them with more appropriate personnel and institutions.

Just like "eat the rich" would be a lousy political slogan for wealth redistribution or otherwise addressing wealth and income inequality.

It is, linguistically, too damned close to "abolish the police" and thereby allows opponents to mischaracterize it too easily.  And, in some sense, they aren't even mischaracterizing it.

[bad_teammate 13220]

3 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

That’s a novel idea to me. Setting aside property crime, and indulgent weakness, the existence of predators, human predators, makes me skeptical of the seriousness of such a proposal.

"Skeptical" in the sense of "nope" and then shutting off or "skeptical" in the sense of "sounds difficult, but I'm open"?

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

His point was that the slogan "defund the police" originated with people who want to abolish the police.  So they literally meant defund the police as close to zero as possible, and preferably abolish police entirely.

He never established that. Look at the bolded word and think about what it means.

He quoted a person. Before he went looking for a source to back up his Internet argument, he had no idea who that person was or the organization he was part of. He wasn't trying to think of (or even find) a source for police/prison-abolitionist thinking in American counter-culture movements or academia. He wasn't actually trying to figure something out about where the thought comes from or how it has grown or anything.

He started with a presumption and found the most convenient quote he could.

That lazy and ignorant shit doesn't work here.

Quote

It is, linguistically, too damned close to "abolish the police" and thereby allows opponents to mischaracterize it too easily. 

"opponents" lol

That list includes all fascists, all right-wingers, and basically every dogshit white centrist/liberal here.

[Willfully Horn 8039]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Skeptical" in the sense of "nope" and then shutting off or "skeptical" in the sense of "sounds difficult, but I'm open"?

As in, what’s the alternative to prisons when addressing pathological  predation, as well as the McVeigh types? My imagination fails. Short of execution, that is.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Spellfucked

[bad_teammate 13220]

2 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

As in, what’s the alternative to prisons when addressing pathological  predation, as well as the McVeigh types? My imagination fails.

Look at the section you began to quote:

-------------------------------------
Second, the only full alternative is building the kind of society that does not need prisons: A decent redistribution of power and income so as to put out the hidden fire of burning envy that now flames up in crimes of property—both burglary by the poor and embezzlement by the affluent. And a decent sense of community that can support, reintegrate and truly rehabilitate...
-------------------------------------

McVeigh is an interesting one to bring up because he is clearly the product of a broken society. You need to challenge your presumption that McVeigh is inevitable, because he wasn't.

A metaphor: Right now in the US we are facing an epidemic of metabolic disease. Our solution in terms of policy is to subsidize sugar and meat production, incentivize fast food distribution and availability, and spend a ton of money on statins and other drugs. What if our solution in terms of policy were to actively destroy the causes of metabolic disease? We wouldn't need statins.

Would there still be a much smaller number of people with congenital issues who might benefit from statins? Yes, but the goal is to completely eliminate the use of statins.

That is what abolition of police/prison is: A goal. One you actually push for instead of say, "Oh well that would be nice but everything we're doing now is right and nothing can change."

 

[bad_teammate 13220]

Still no one has offered any alternative to "defund".

Just fly-by concern troll shitting on people doing real and important work.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

38 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"Skeptical" in the sense of "nope" and then shutting off or "skeptical" in the sense of "sounds difficult, but I'm open"?

He never established that. Look at the bolded word and think about what it means.

He quoted a person. Before he went looking for a source to back up his Internet argument, he had no idea who that person was or the organization he was part of. He wasn't trying to think of (or even find) a source for police/prison-abolitionist thinking in American counter-culture movements or academia. He wasn't actually trying to figure something out about where the thought comes from or how it has grown or anything.

He started with a presumption and found the most convenient quote he could.

That lazy and ignorant shit doesn't work here.

"opponents" lol

That list includes all fascists, all right-wingers, and basically every dogshit white centrist/liberal here.

Well the issue of abolishing/defunding/reducing police presence cuts across a lot of social boundaries, from a perception standpoint, at least.

Lest you forget all the dogshit white centrist liberal black pastors that supported the VCCA.

Politically, fear works like a charm.  It even works in the "ghetto" where people are most victimized by police.  "Defunding" police evokes fear.

Should it?  Probably not.  Does it? Bet your fur.

[bad_teammate 13220]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Lest you forget all the dogshit white centrist liberal black pastors that supported the VCCA.

Flesh this thought out. Why did they support it?

And why is that relevant to what we're discussing right now?

Quote

"Defunding" police evokes fear.

Cool what's your suggestion?

 

 

[Willfully Horn 8039]

Death and taxes are inevitable. April 20, 1995 is fact, and the OKC bombing had already happened. Believing another is inevitable is as true as believing another can be absolutely prevented. Humans do what can’t be done.

That said, a more peaceable and just society is a goal I can support. 

24 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

truly rehabilitate.

Sounds difficult.  Though, humans do what can’t be done.

 

14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Still no one has offered any alternative to "defund"

“Disarm” might have value in moving the discussion forward. “Bob” the police, with haircut reference, British analogy, and a bit of wtf is a dark horse suggestion.

Defund did provoke a conversation, I’ll admit, but I don’t know about that discussion’s momentum.

[bad_teammate 13220]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

“Disarm” might have value in moving the discussion forward.

Will this be less prone to being either openly opposed by right-wingers or concern trolled to death by centrists/liberals?

I'm down. I love it. I will fully support Disarm and scream furious hell at its opponents (right & center).

Quote

Defund did provoke a conversation, I’ll admit, but I don’t know about that discussion’s momentum.

This thread is alive and not because of Defund's proponents. Should tell you something.

Edited May 30, 2021 by bad_teammate