Defund the Police

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Police unions should be drastically altered, and only negotiate on compensation matters only. Instead they create contracts that shelter bad police officers. A quick review of the HPD contract allows an officer 48 hours notice before they’re interrogated for misconduct. And they’re allowed to see all of the evidence and witness statements before that interrogation.

im ok giving them enough notice to allow a lawyer or rep to assist them but why give them the time and evidence to create their story. And I’m sure some misconduct accusations are bs but the police union seems to prioritize protecting bad cops over good policing.

Police officers accused of abuse of force or other crimes should have the exact same access as you or I if we were accused of the same offense. Full stop.

[HenryJames 65890]

 

[HenryJames 65890]

Thread.

[406W30th 1111]

This is kiiiiiiinda huge.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by 406W30th

[Jive Turkey 12568]

1 hour ago, 406W30th said:

This is kiiiiiiinda huge.

 

 

It’s one thing to express an intent to do so. Another to actually do it. This is gonna be interesting. Political fallout could be yuuuge. Puts Biden in a little bit of a jam. We know how Trump feels. Biden needs to handle this question deftly. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Jive Turkey

[406W30th 1111]

1 hour ago, Jive Turkey said:

It’s one thing to express an intent to do so. Another to actually do it. This is gonna be interesting. Political fallout could be yuuuge. Puts Biden in a little bit of a jam. We know how Trump feels. Biden needs to handle this question deftly. 

I don't disagree that it's a trap, especially for someone like Biden who can't help but trip over his own dick, but I also think it's pretty easy to say that this is a local issue that should be decided locally. Aren't conservatives supposed to be all in favor of local control?

The other way to answer it: "Look Jack, cops are given an impossible job to do. It's not their fault that they're burdened with the job of social worker, mental health professional, and enforcer of the law enforcer. The system has failed them and it's our responsibility to unburden them so that they can perform their job better, and more safely."

 

[LABEVO 928]

 

[F250 28691]

3 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

It’s one thing to express an intent to do so. Another to actually do it. This is gonna be interesting. Political fallout could be yuuuge. Puts Biden in a little bit of a jam. We know how Trump feels. Biden needs to handle this question deftly. 

This has the potential to favor Trump.

I caught the news tonight and it's being framed as an attempt to completely get rid of the police.

Chances that Biden and the Democrats fumble on this topic are high.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

What Biden needs to do is say "this is primarily a state and local government issue.  However, at the federal level, I will ask Congress and the DOJ to review all grants to state and local police and tie future grants to meaningful police reform and end programs that arm police with military equipment.  I will also appoint an attorney general committed to reviewing the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies for similar reforms."

[Jive Turkey 12568]

Val Demings could get a bump in the veepstakes from this. 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

Is "do not fire until fired upon" a realistic option?  It worked in Top Gun.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

23 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Is "do not fire until fired upon" a realistic option?  It worked in Top Gun.

No, I think a LEO has a right to shoot first if someone brandishes a weapon. 

I think body cams should be required nationwide. If its off, then the cops' statement of facts should be tossed out completely. 

Unions need to be fixed, and police, rather than municipalities need to be on the hook for bad behavior.

"Defund the police" is a dumb and easily attacked rallying cry that almost insures that very little will change. "Reform the police" is better, is not easily attacked, and is more in line with what protesters actually want.  The rallying cry is similar to "abolish ICE."  We are always going to have both police and border control. They are never going to be gone. We need them to be just.

[alincoln 2364]

Defund the Police is the best news Trump has had since February.  

[SizzleChest 8275]

12 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

Val Demings could get a bump in the veepstakes from this. 

I would wager some bucks that she and Kamala are the odds on favorites now.  Demings also was part of the impeachment prosecution team, so not sure how that might impact the choice.

Bottoms is too inexperienced.

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

John Oliver dedicated his show to this last night.  For anyone who genuinely wants to learn about the topic, I thought it was very well done.  

 

[Rougarou 594]

On 6/6/2020 at 8:35 PM, 4th&Five said:

 

I'm all for defunding police but if the school analogy is even close to accurate, you are going to have white flight into neighborhoods/cities that will fund the police and leave the defunded cities in a doom loop or vicious cycle. The only difference is those that want the police defunded would have to be okay with that and not cry for a Robin Hood law giving some of Plano's police money to Dallas or something, because it's unfair and discriminatory that the crime is unequal due to police resources.

 

[zork 629]

Tucker gives some statistics from the WaPo since they have started tracking death stats in 2015:

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by zork

[Michael Knight 12898]

So like has anyone ever been robbed and then called the police? What did they do to help?

[MillerEP 30339]

30 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I'm all for defunding police but if the school analogy is even close to accurate, you are going to have white flight into neighborhoods/cities that will fund the police and leave the defunded cities in a doom loop or vicious cycle. The only difference is those that want the police defunded would have to be okay with that and not cry for a Robin Hood law giving some of Plano's police money to Dallas or something, because it's unfair and discriminatory that the crime is unequal due to police resources.

 

^That's the likely scenario I see. A vicious cycle will occur. They'll defund police, which will trigger some police to quit and move elsewhere to more "friendlier" districts. They'll have troubles recruiting new officers because salaries and overtime will be better one town over. Police response times will drop and they'll have less presence in some areas. This may embolden criminals, which will increase crime. White flight will occur and businesses will move to "safer" districts, which will dry up tax revenue further, and cause less employment options. This will further depress the local economy causing more crime because people gotta eat and make money somehow.

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

No, I think a LEO has a right to shoot first if someone brandishes a weapon. 

I think body cams should be required nationwide. If its off, then the cops' statement of facts should be tossed out completely. 

Unions need to be fixed, and police, rather than municipalities need to be on the hook for bad behavior.

"Defund the police" is a dumb and easily attacked rallying cry that almost insures that very little will change. "Reform the police" is better, is not easily attacked, and is more in line with what protesters actually want.  The rallying cry is similar to "abolish ICE."  We are always going to have both police and border control. They are never going to be gone. We need them to be just.

while i see your point, ice is completely separate from the us border patrol. i think ice is an extraneous agency.

[Rougarou 594]

8 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

^That's the likely scenario I see. A vicious cycle will occur. They'll defund police, which will trigger some police to quit and move elsewhere to more "friendlier" districts. They'll have troubles recruiting new officers because salaries and overtime will be better one town over. Police response times will drop and they'll have less presence in some areas. This may embolden criminals, which will increase crime. White flight will occur and businesses will move to "safer" districts, which will dry up tax revenue further, and cause less employment options. This will further depress the local economy causing more crime because people gotta eat and make money somehow.

Plus, people of means want a friendly police force. Police are friendly to the upper-middle class and wealthy of all colors if you live in the tony zip code, versus the poor (of mostly color, due to systemic and generational racism).

I equate it to private school in a way. If I don't want my kids going to sub-par public school, I have to move to a good school district that is free or pay for them to go to private school. If you don't want the basic/entry level police offering (due to defunding), you can either a) move to a good city that will provide what you want in police or b) pay for it yourself, which currently doesn't exist. I wonder if there would be a market for a quasi-private police force that either a city or HOA or Co-Op can contract with-- that might be a business idea.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Rougarou

[MillerEP 30339]

7 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Plus, people of means want a friendly police force. Police are friendly to the upper-middle class and wealthy of all colors if you live in the tony zip code, versus the poor (of mostly color, due to systemic and generational racism).

I equate it to private school in a way. If I don't want my kids going to sub-par public school, I have to move to a good school district that is free or pay for them to go to private school. If you don't want the basic/entry level police offering (due to defunding), you can either a) move to a good city that will provide what you want in police or b) pay for it yourself, which currently doesn't exist. I wonder if there would be a market for a quasi-private police force that either a city or HOA or Co-Op can contract with-- that might be a business idea.

If there is a need some enterprising person will step up to fill it. I suppose cities could contract out their police force to the lowest bidder like they do private prisons, but if they don't like police from their own community, I don't see how they'll like a bunch of mercenaries on minimum wage shipped in from all over, accountable to shareholders moreso than their stakeholders. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by MillerEP

[RPM 26230]

After 9/11 everything changed. Police became "First Responders" and we were "at war". Don't forget we were already "at war" with drugs. Everybody got a big ol' influx of cash and surplus military equipment because, you know... terrorists and drugs. So now they have to pull out with those toys, play their reindeer games and keep that adrenaline pumping.

Police are not paramilitary forces. They are not Judge Dredd. Maybe we need to Barney Fife the motherfuckers (you get 1 bullet and keep it in your left shirt pocket) so they learn how to do their job without mowing down the local (mostly black) gentry.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Disband/defund the police because they are a white supremacist gang.

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

6 minutes ago, RPM said:

After 9/11 everything changed. Police became "First Responders" and we were "at war". Don't forget we were already "at war" with drugs. Everybody got a big ol' influx of cash and surplus military equipment because, you know... terrorists and drugs. So now they have to pull out with those toys, play their reindeer games and keep that adrenaline pumping.

Police are not paramilitary forces. They are not Judge Dredd. Maybe we need to Barney Fife the motherfuckers (you get 1 bullet and keep it in your left shirt pocket) so they learn how to do their job without mowing down the local (mostly black) gentry.

tell that to alexandria pd:

 

[F250 28691]

2 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

No, I think a LEO has a right to shoot first if someone brandishes a weapon. 

I think body cams should be required nationwide. If its off, then the cops' statement of facts should be tossed out completely. 

Unions need to be fixed, and police, rather than municipalities need to be on the hook for bad behavior.

"Defund the police" is a dumb and easily attacked rallying cry that almost insures that very little will change. "Reform the police" is better, is not easily attacked, and is more in line with what protesters actually want.  The rallying cry is similar to "abolish ICE."  We are always going to have both police and border control. They are never going to be gone. We need them to be just.

Agree, Defund the Police is an extremely shitty slogan.

People need to work on their marketing skills when coming up with these sayings.

[Foosters 17734]

I worked a couple years in a courthouse that served primarily a Latino area of town.

All criminal fillings were misdemeanors in this particular courthouse.

What I saw was a systematic war waged on that community. I saw hundreds (yes hundreds) of criminal arrests that began with stops for bicycle code violations - riding the wrong way on the street, riding a bike on a sidewalk, or riding without a headlight.

I saw pretextual stops of both pedestrians and cars daily.

I saw police and sheriffs routinely lie in reports. I caught two cops on the stand committing perjury. When they realized they were busted (by their own dashcam nonetheless) they laughed on the stand. Quick NG verdicts and cops were back on the street that day. Defendants spent over a month in jail waiting for those verdicts. DAs office does nothing to lying cops because their union pumps money into the DA's election war-chest.

Fuck police

They've waged an insidious war for decades. Sorry your feelings are getting hurt.

[Pig Bellmont 8692]

16 minutes ago, F250 said:

Agree, Defund the Police is an extremely shitty slogan.

People need to work on their marketing skills when coming up with these sayings.

They want to shock. They want radical change of a racist system. The people who say “defund the police” don’t care about appeasing pearl clutching white people who watch Tucker Carlson

[DanTheHorn 4901]

1 hour ago, Michael Knight said:

So like has anyone ever been robbed and then called the police? What did they do to help?

When I worked the graveyard at 7-11 in 1986 and did not sell beer to two girls that were minors and a biker right in front of me tried to buy their beer for them by law I had to refuse. He waited outside and when no one was in the store walked back and said he was going to kick my ass. I picked up the phone and dialed 911 and before they even answered I started to describe him. He stopped and then walked out and I guess cooled down and did not come back. He could have kicked my ass before the police arrived but the 911 call saved my ass.

This defund the police idea is as stupid as some of the the right wing ideas. Exposing police departments with video has been and huge eye opener for folks. That is what is going to get the proper change done via voting and eventual policies. This idea is just going to get the Trumpkins fired up like the Dems going after Kavanaugh. I would not be surprised if China, Russia or the right wing introduced the idea and BLM ran with it.

Edited June 8, 2020 by DanTheHorn

[FondrenRoad 4378]

4 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

They want to shock. They want radical change of a racist system. The people who say “defund the police” don’t care about appeasing pearl clutching white people who watch Tucker Carlson

They may not care, but pretending that Karens don't exist doesn't make them go away. 

[Michael Knight 12898]

1 minute ago, DanTheHorn said:

When I worked the graveyard at 7-11 as pimpled face teenager in 1986 and did not sell beer to two girls that were minors and a biker right in front of me tried to buy their beer for them by law I had to refuse. He waited outside and when no one was in the store walked back and said he was going to kick my ass. I picked up the phone and dialed 911 and before they even answered I started to describe him. He stopped and then walked out and I guess cooled down and did not come back. He could have kicked my ass before the police arrived but the 911 called saved my ass.

This defund the police is as stupid as some of the the right wing ideas. Exposing police departments with video has been and huge eye opener for folks. That is what is going to get the proper change done via voting and eventual policies. This idea is just going to get the Trumpkins fired up like the Dems going after Kavanaugh. I would not be surprised if China, Russia or the right wing introduced the idea and BLM ran with it.

Defund the police does not mean eliminate the police. That 911 call didn't require a tank or even tear gas.

[DanTheHorn 4901]

1 minute ago, Michael Knight said:

Defund the police does not mean eliminate the police. That 911 call didn't require a tank or even tear gas.

Than maybe they should have gone with Demilitarize the police. Defund means cops lose jobs and usually by union rules the newer hire is gone.

Edited June 8, 2020 by DanTheHorn

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 hour ago, Michael Knight said:

So like has anyone ever been robbed and then called the police? What did they do to help?

About 10 years ago I had my house burglarized 2 times. The only help the police were was writing a simple 2 minute police report for me to give to my insurance to get a payout. That's literally it. They did nothing else. Never caught anyone and never got a single item back even though I had a serial numbers list

I think outsideof divisions like homicide they pretty much see themselves as only a money-making venture at this point. Rack up those tickets and busts to get forfeitures. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Wanker Bob

[TwiceHorn 31283]

This idea that the popo are going to rescue you from a dangerous situation is pure fantasy fiction.  It just never happens.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

14 minutes ago, DanTheHorn said:

Than maybe they should have gone with Demilitarize the police. Defund means cops lose jobs and usually by union rules the newer hire is gone.

I want them disarmed.

No tanks or military cosplay, no guns except for a small percent of the total force to be used if necessary.

The average patrol cop does not need access to deadly force.

[gmr548 16517]

Here's the question I continue to have: why do we have armed police patrolling the city?  Firefighters don't patrol the city looking for fires.  They hang out at the station until someone calls them.  That improves response times.  Why don't police do the same thing?
To the extent you need police to patrol (e.g., traffic), they shouldn't be armed.  Any number of countries have unarmed law enforcement (including England and Wales).  We even have it--parking enforcement is usually unarmed.  You can have traffic police who are unarmed patrolling the highways.  But leave the real police in their stations until they are called.

We fucking don't. Welcome to the club. We meet on Tuesdays. Bring beer.

[Hiphopopotamos 20865]

20 minutes ago, DanTheHorn said:

Than maybe they should have gone with Demilitarize the police. Defund means cops lose jobs and usually by union rules the newer hire is gone.

I hope so - we want them to lose jobs.  Because then we'll take that money and hire social workers, addiction specialists, and mental health experts to handle the part of the job that isn't 'violent crime'.

Cops shouldn't do social work - they aren't trained for it.  So lets hire people who are.  People who are trained to de-escalate.  People who aren't geared up like they're going into Fallujah.  People who actually give a shit about the people in the community.

[Wanker Bob 379]

9 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

On 6/5/2020 at 2:26 PM, Ghost of LL said:

Here's the question I continue to have: why do we have armed police patrolling the city?  Firefighters don't patrol the city looking for fires.  They hang out at the station until someone calls them.  That improves response times.  Why don't police do the same thing?
To the extent you need police to patrol (e.g., traffic), they shouldn't be armed.  Any number of countries have unarmed law enforcement (including England and Wales).  We even have it--parking enforcement is usually unarmed.  You can have traffic police who are unarmed patrolling the highways.  But leave the real police in their stations until they are called.

Read more  

We fucking don't. Welcome to the club. We meet on Tuesdays. Bring beer.

He's a lawyer. He owes us something more expensive. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

When I worked the graveyard at 7-11 in 1986 and did not sell beer to two girls that were minors and a biker right in front of me tried to buy their beer for them by law I had to refuse. He waited outside and when no one was in the store walked back and said he was going to kick my ass. I picked up the phone and dialed 911 and before they even answered I started to describe him. He stopped and then walked out and I guess cooled down and did not come back. He could have kicked my ass before the police arrived but the 911 call saved my ass.
This defund the police idea is as stupid as some of the the right wing ideas. Exposing police departments with video has been and huge eye opener for folks. That is what is going to get the proper change done via voting and eventual policies. This idea is just going to get the Trumpkins fired up like the Dems going after Kavanaugh. I would not be surprised if China, Russia or the right wing introduced the idea and BLM ran with it.

Tell me more about Republicans fired up over Kavanaugh and the 2018 midterms, Tucker.

[tantric superman 4667]

On 6/6/2020 at 10:52 PM, Bama Chick said:

Defund =/= Abolish

Everything makes me think of RepoMan.

 

[406W30th 1111]

4 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

No, I think a LEO has a right to shoot first if someone brandishes a weapon. 

I think body cams should be required nationwide. If its off, then the cops' statement of facts should be tossed out completely. 

Unions need to be fixed, and police, rather than municipalities need to be on the hook for bad behavior.

"Defund the police" is a dumb and easily attacked rallying cry that almost insures that very little will change. "Reform the police" is better, is not easily attacked, and is more in line with what protesters actually want.  The rallying cry is similar to "abolish ICE."  We are always going to have both police and border control. They are never going to be gone. We need them to be just.

If you need any proof that "reform the police" is code for something entirely inadequate:

 

Cops regularly turn off their body cams with impunity. They regularly cover up their badge. Nothing happens. And you're correct – the police will always exist in some capacity, and that's fine. We need some law enforcement but it must be wholly reimagined.

I agree that "Defund the Police" is a bad, easily attacked way of saying what most of us really want, but it's about moving the Overton window at this point in order to get meaningful reform. You can't start by saying we need "reform", especially when dipshits like Scott fucking Walker are claiming to be proponents of "reform".

[Continental Op 3934]

4 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Everything makes me think of RepoMan.

 

Suppose you're thinking about a plate o' shrimp. 

[tantric superman 4667]

I would have gone with

Re-engineer

Five-O, ya hear!

[tantric superman 4667]

1 minute ago, Continental Op said:

Suppose you're thinking about a plate o' shrimp. 

Well, I was thinking about a plate.  And then shrimp, apart from the plate.  But now?

[DanTheHorn 4901]

31 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Tell me more about Republicans fired up over Kavanaugh and the 2018 midterms, Tucker.

The midterms had the highest turnout on both sides ever for midterms. I think without the Kavanaugh  hearings Republican turnout may have remained flat.

[Jive Turkey 12568]

 

[Continental Op 3934]

13 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Well, I was thinking about a plate.  And then shrimp, apart from the plate.  But now?

It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness. 

[tantric superman 4667]

2 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

 

Goddamn punks are going to vote for Biden and they're going to like it.

[RPM 26230]

In all seriousness, I don't know exactly what "defund the police" means exactly. We need a multi-layered police force. City/Precinct (Constables-paper servers)/County/State/Feds. They need to stop acting like they're breaching an insurgent bunker every time they serve a warrant on a suburban home.

They should call it Project Dial It Back.

[tantric superman 4667]

I do find it interesting that the "Defund the Police", as a test has kind of the same feel as "Black Lives Matter".  It's almost designed to get a negative response, and that is the point, because the listener then is supposed to hear the speaker out.  That's the whole point.  The stopping and listening to the nuance of the term reflects the kind of listening and rethinking of ideas that the speaker wants the listener to engage. 

You know what I'm sayin'?