Marines confederate flag ban

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marine-corps-to-remove-public-displays-of-confederate-battle-flag-2020-06-06/
 

good on them to ban the flag representing hate and one that is tied as having the worst war record of all-time. It’s time to finally root that loser mentality out of this country.

I wonder how high up this decision was made and whether civilian leadership ok’ed it.

[SubliminalHorn 6674]

The confederacy were losers and traitors. How they are still being held up as “southern pride/heritage” is beyond me. 

[Bevo14 8274]

1 minute ago, SubliminalHorn said:

The confederacy were losers and traitors. How they are still being held up as “southern pride/heritage” is beyond me. 

losers and traitors celebrate other losers and traitors

Edited June 7, 2020 by Bevo14

[TexArcher 37508]

38 minutes ago, Bevo14 said:

losers and traitors celebrate other losers and traitors

See: Texas A&M Fightin' Texas Aggies, 2010 South Division Champions.

[Neonmoon 38127]

32 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

The confederacy were losers and traitors. How they are still being held up as “southern pride/heritage” is beyond me. 

Good old propaganda. Seriously. I was taught a watered down version of this shit. The “it was about states rights” mantra was propaganda created and spread by the daughters of the confederacy in children’s textbooks 

https://www.facingsouth.org/2019/04/twisted-sources-how-confederate-propaganda-ended-souths-schoolbooks

And our dumbass state still is indoctrinating children 

Quote

Consider what happened in Texas in 2010. As part of a highly publicized revamp of the state social studies curriculum, the Republican-controlled Texas Board of Education removed slavery as the central cause of the Civil War and replaced it with states' rights and secession, with Republican board member Patricia Hardy calling slavery "an after issue." The Republican members also considered referring to the slave trade as the "Atlantic Triangular Trade" before finally settling on "Transatlantic Slave Trade."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Lobo]

It is strange to me that the USMC condoned a runner-up flag for so many decades.  

The flag is literally a symbol of being a runner-up in life, which I guess is the Heritage of so many of those who wave that flag.  So yeah, it's not about hate, it's about Heritage.  The Heritage of always being an also-ran in life in everything you try.  Why not let them just keep the participation trophy then, only thing they really have going for them in life.  

[Bateshorn 9899]

Why did the Marine Corps allow people to fly the flag of an enemy it defeated?  Do a lot of people fly the Rising Sun?  Or the Iron Cross or Nazi flag?  
 

Do the Vietnamese go around tattooing the the American Flag in their shoulders?
 

Long overdue. The confederacy were losers and on the wrong side of history.

[hobbes2702 12826]

Good. It’s not appropriate for members of our armed forces to condone treason.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

It is strange to me that the USMC condoned a runner-up flag for so many decades.  

The flag is literally a symbol of being a runner-up in life, which I guess is the Heritage of so many of those who wave that flag.  So yeah, it's not about hate, it's about Heritage.  The Heritage of always being an also-ran in life in everything you try.  Why not let them just keep the participation trophy then, only thing they really have going for them in life.  

Its worse than a runner up flag. Its a traitor flag that was flown by an enemy that killed 148 US marines and that killed more American soldiers than any other enemy. 

[formermav43 4599]

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

[WhatTheBuck 28711]

I'm surprised to learn they were ever allowed in the first place. Wtf?

[TexArcher 37508]

Just now, formermav43 said:

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

But they weren't traitors against the United States.  The Confederates were.  

[hobbes2702 12826]

2 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

Except they were traitors to the crown so unless you still hold some allegiance to British monarchy I’m not sure of your point

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

There are 198 flags of sovereign nations flying over 198 countries right now, all across our planet.  All of them are traitorous banners, since 0 out of 198 of those nations existed prior to their establishment.  A people can tell me there were there before I was, but none of them were first

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

The Marines are on point with this issue. It’s inevitable that the Army will rename their bases from confederate heroes.  Forgetting that person’s actions against the US, the naming was a racist statement by others. There will be protests against renaming but only an idiot doesn’t realize that it’s only a matter to time. Pull off the band-aid now and move on. 

the history should definitely continue to recognize if a base has a previous name and highlight why the chance was the right move. I completely agree we shouldn’t hide from history, warts and all.

[SimonBolivar 10928]

11 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

True, but those are the only features of the Confederacy. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by SimonBolivar

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

50 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Good old propaganda. Seriously. I was taught a watered down version of this shit. The “it was about states rights” mantra was propaganda created and spread by the daughters of the confederacy in children’s textbooks 

https://www.facingsouth.org/2019/04/twisted-sources-how-confederate-propaganda-ended-souths-schoolbooks

And our dumbass state still is indoctrinating children 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to mention that settling on a term like Atlantic slave trade somehow attempts to lessen that Idea Americans owned people. Instead let’s focus on a global supply chain that has one minor problem that people were part of one leg of the trades.  Let’s highlight cotton, rum, textiles, molasses instead.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

There are 198 flags of sovereign nations flying over 198 countries right now, all across our planet.  All of them are traitorous banners, since 0 out of 198 of those nations existed prior to their establishment.  A people can tell me there were there before I was, but none of them were first

What are you trying to defend? It’s cool to display confederate, nazi or other symbols of hate because they were once in power? 

[Huckleberry 32701]

13 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Except they were traitors to the crown so unless you still hold some allegiance to British monarchy I’m not sure of your point

Exactly. He thought he had a point but unless there are people around here saying that the British Armed Forces should allow United States flags then he doesn't.

[Guest Lobo]

NiceGuyEddie------No, I quoted the guy who said that even the U.S. flag was a symbol of treason and slave ownership.  I was trying to point out that all national flags right now are the result of some group rebelling against another group in order to establish their nation-state.  There were once zero and now there are 200.  The commentary is that he was wrong for suggesting the U.S. flag holds the same bullshit history as the confederate flag.  You're usually smarter than this.  Notice my quote above my post, that's the background necessary to understand my post.  If all groups in power, both defeated and currently in power, have done something wrong in the past---then there should be no flags for any countries, whatsoever.  I don't know of a single nation-state established without the loss of one human life.  The only reason I admire the American Flag is because it represents a consistent effort to keep improving.  It doesn't celebrate a bloodline, or an organized faith, or military might, or a once-toppled regime.  To me, it's the sign that a group of people united around a common set of ideals are committed to keep advancing a platform worth fighting for.  The confederate battle flag, and all of the "heritage" it purports to celebrate...is a sign of stupid people who don't know they were defeated 155 years ago because they don't read so good.  

Edited June 7, 2020 by Lobo

[FondrenRoad 4378]

16 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

Which might matter in England if UK troops were flying the US flag, but doesn't matter at all here. 

[formermav43 4599]

19 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Except they were traitors to the crown so unless you still hold some allegiance to British monarchy I’m not sure of your point

That most people don’t *really* have an objection to treason on principle. That’s all.

Im not arguing that they should be flying the CSA flag. It’s illogical for military units to fly the flag of an enemy. Just that all of the righteous indignation is pretty hollow. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by formermav43

[David Dennison 18656]

33 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Good. It’s not appropriate for members of our armed forces to condone treason.

Agreed.

Except for the stars and stripes. 

But that's the good kind of treason.

[hobbes2702 12826]

Just now, formermav43 said:

That most people don’t *really* have an objection to treason on principle. That’s all.

No shit which is clearly not the point. Of course most people don’t have an objection to treason in general. There are 200 nations on this planet. I imagine southern confederate treason doesn’t matter them because they don’t have any adherence to the laws of this country. 
What you said is entirely irrelevant to this conversation and is a drive by sound bite that provides cover to those on the other side of this argument. It’s intellectually shallow and unimportant 

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

That most people don’t *really* have an objection to treason on principle. That’s all.

Im not arguing that they should be flying the CSA flag. It’s illogical for military units to fly the flag of an enemy. Just that all of the righteous indignation is pretty hollow. 

Fair point, I would add that all people, regardless of nation who celebrate the British Monarchy or the Southern Confederacy idolize worthless institutions and if they were all to disappear from the Earth, it would be a complete net gain for the rest of us.  

[David Dennison 18656]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

No shit which is clearly not the point. Of course most people don’t have an objection to treason in general. There are 200 nations on this planet. I imagine southern confederate treason doesn’t matter them because they don’t have any adherence to the laws of this country. 
What you said is entirely irrelevant to this conversation and is a drive by sound bite that provides cover to those on the other side of this argument. It’s intellectually shallow and unimportant 

But some people in this thread are focusing on the treason as much as the slavery. I think maybe focus on the latter because the United States was founded by treasonous men who would have been hanged if things had turned out differently.

[otisdog 365]

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

 The only reason I admire the American Flag is because it represents a consistent effort to keep improving.  

Well, it did....truely amazing how far we have fallen in the eyes of the world.

[WhatTheBuck 28711]

30 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The United States flag is that of traitors and slave owners too. They just happened to win.

And the British didn't fly their flag. 

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, good point.  Our "logo" lost credibility faster than the Subway, Jell-O Pudding Pops, and the Weinstein Studios combined.  

 

And there's an Eddie Izzard, "Do you have a Flag?"  joke in here somewhere.  I don't expect the rebel yell flag flyers to know who he is though.  The weirdest thing about him to them isn't his cross-dressing, or his poly-lingual skill set, it's that he has an actual sense of humor and knows weird shit, like history.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Lobo

[hobbes2702 12826]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But some people in this thread are focusing on the treason as much as the slavery. I think maybe focus on the latter because the United States was founded by treasonous men who would have been hanged if things had turned out differently.

The problem with that is you are allowing the “well it’s all treason” argument to matter in this instance and it doesn’t. I’m not talking about the revolutionary war or the horrible sins of our founding fathers because it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

At the time of the Civil War the United States has ended slavery. One group of people felt that it was worth going to war with their own country, killing their own countrymen, in order to continue owning slaves. The comparisons that are attempting to be drawn are not important to this discussion and doing so is simply attempting to obfuscate 

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But some people in this thread are focusing on the treason as much as the slavery. I think maybe focus on the latter because the United States was founded by treasonous men who would have been hanged if things had turned out differently.

And some seem to be focused on the losing, which makes no sense. As if the winning side is always the righteous side. 

[David Dennison 18656]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

The problem with that is you are allowing the “well it’s all treason” argument to matter in this instance and it doesn’t. I’m not talking about the revolutionary war or the horrible sins of our founding fathers because it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

At the time of the Civil War the United States has ended slavery. One group of people felt that it was worth going to war with their own country, killing their own countrymen, in order to continue owning slaves. The comparisons that are attempting to be drawn are not important to this discussion and doing so is simply attempting to obfuscate 

I was just pointing out that our treason was the good kind.

Probably.

[Guest Lobo]

While I've never seen live combat, I come from a long line of family members who did.  And near as I can tell, it's not co much as "focused on the losing, which makes no sense."  It's just that in warfare, being focused on not losing is kind of important because it usually means you're not dead or in a P.O.W. camp.  You start and end wars because you think you're the righteous side, but the middle part is just about winning and survival.  And that's kind of the important part of...you know...the war.  

[Orale 1087]

8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

And some seem to be focused on the losing, which makes no sense. As if the winning side is always the righteous side. 

In this instance, the losing side was evil. 

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

1 minute ago, Orale said:

In this instance, the losing side was evil. 

So don’t fly their flag because they were evil, not because they lost. And according to the winning side, that evil losing side was always a part of the United States, and it fought to keep it. It’s the evil side that claimed to be separate. 

[David Dennison 18656]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

So don’t fly their flag because they were evil, not because they lost. And according to the winning side, that evil losing side was always a part of the United States, and it fought to keep it. It’s the evil side that claimed to be separate. 

Yeah, I think the treason and the losing is outweighed by the fighting for the right to keep human beings as chattel property.

[hobbes2702 12826]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, I think the treason and the losing is outweighed by the fighting for the right to keep human beings as chattel property.

They both matter immensely especially when we are talking about members of our current armed services displaying them.

The treason argument is super effective for those they don’t accept the viewpoints of minorities in this country. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by hobbes2702

[Doc Sam Beckett 5784]

Turns out we made a huge mistake bringing the south back into the fold. Imagine our big beautiful American penis right now without the massive herpe sore of the south on it... 

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

5 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Turns out we made a huge mistake bringing the south back into the fold. Imagine our big beautiful American penis right now without the massive herpe sore of the south on it... 

Had to, financially. It’s the first reason the union went to war to bring them back, the tobacco and textiles industries. 

[tx 3 putt 76372]

Confederates did x1000 more damage than ANTIFA will ever do 

They're the OG domestic terrorist group  

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

The idea that the Union fought the Civil War to free the slaves is almost as absurd as the idea that the South did not start the war to keep their slaves. 

[InkaUtexas 25517]

Good. Now lets apply this across the armed forces. Do not let police officers where whatever the hell they want on their armor. 

Air Force can continue to paint pin up girls on airplanes though. 

[hpslugga 4044]

11 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The idea that the Union fought the Civil War to free the slaves is almost as absurd as the idea that the South did not start the war to keep their slaves. 

Oh there’s no doubt that the Union’s intentions were far less than noble. Saying that they were trying to liberate African slaves is as naive as saying that the US was trying to liberate [insert name of country we fucked with] in [insert years spanning between 1947-present]. 

That having been said, the motivations for the confederacy were far worse. I mean seriously, you got your panties in a fucking wad because some guy who may or may not have held abolitionist convictions won the election, so you literally took your ball, went home, and vowed to take up arms against Americans if they decided to do something about it?

And as far as this heritage thing, that to me is a perversity that’s very hard to match: a four-year fad that arose because of the aforementioned butthurt is put to sleep 155 years ago, and that’s a heritage today? Kill that noise.

[formermav43 4599]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

What you said is entirely irrelevant to this conversation and is a drive by sound bite that provides cover to those on the other side of this argument. It’s intellectually shallow and unimportant 

It does not provide cover for those in the other side; in fact, my point is the opposite of that.

The talk here was not limited why the USMC shouldn’t be flying the flag of a defeated enemy (which is true). It was primarily moralizing about the CSA flag as a symbol of treason and hate.

My comments were entirely relevant to the discussion, and I didn’t even raise the issue: if you’re against flags that are symbols of treason and hate, then you should reflect on the symbolism of the American flag. It was perhaps too much of a drive by comment, but I intended it as food for thought.

I am deeply uncomfortable with flying a flag myself and don’t do it, for what it’s worth.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

31 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Oh there’s no doubt that the Union’s intentions were far less than noble. Saying that they were trying to liberate African slaves is as naive as saying that the US was trying to liberate [insert name of country we fucked with] in [insert years spanning between 1947-present]. 

That having been said, the motivations for the confederacy were far worse. I mean seriously, you got your panties in a fucking wad because some guy who may or may not have held abolitionist convictions won the election, so you literally took your ball, went home, and vowed to take up arms against Americans if they decided to do something about it?

And as far as this heritage thing, that to me is a perversity that’s very hard to match: a four-year fad that arose because of the aforementioned butthurt is put to sleep 155 years ago, and that’s a heritage today? Kill that noise.

Nothing puts the lie to the idea that the South fought for anything but slavery more plainly that the story of Confederate general Patrick Cleburne. 

When he could see the writing was on the wall for the CSA in 1863, Cleburne wrote up a proposal to free and arm the slaves to fight for the homeland they shared with their masters. He went out of his way to say that there would be ways to keep them from attaining equal status as whites -- maybe he thought them lesser, maybe he knew not to bite off more than he could chew at first.

He was an interesting guy -- a Protestant middle-class Irishman who'd served in the British army, which had deployed him back to Ireland, very near his home village. His regiment was detailed to enforce evictions on his starving neighbors, and it left a mark on him. He bought his way out of His Majesty's service and emigrated to America, and became a lawyer in Helena, Arkansas. 

He rose up through the ranks rapidly and by 1863 was one of the army's ablest field commanders -- "the Stonewall of the West." Cleburne Texas bears his name for that reason, along with a few schools and other towns all over the southern states. 

Anyway, he drafted up this proposal and passed it around quietly to a few of his officer buddies, got a dozen or so to co-sign, and he felt he had just enough support to officially pass it up the chain of command. 

Here is what he had to say about slavery in his proposal: 

Quote

Apart from the assistance that home and foreign prejudice against slavery has given to the North, slavery is a source of great strength to the enemy in a purely military point of view, by supplying him with an army from our granaries; but it is our most vulnerable point, a continued embarrassment, and in some respects an insidious weakness.  

He went on to state:

"As between the loss of independence and the loss of slavery, we assume that every patriot will freely give up the latter — give up the negro slave rather than be a slave himself."

Our country has already some friends in England and France, and there are strong motives to induce these nations to recognize and assist us, but they cannot assist us without helping slavery, and to do this would be in conflict with their policy for the last quarter of a century."

 

Bold strategy, Cleburne. Let's see how it worked it for him.

Quote

Spoiler

 

A number of officers were immediately and vehemently opposed. Perhaps the most vocal was Brig. Gen. W. H. T. Walker, who protested in vivid terms to Gen. Joseph E. Johnston. Word of Cleburne’s proposal soon made its way to Confederate President Jefferson Davis, who ordered the entire matter suppressed and all copies of the document destroyed. However, the matter made its rounds in the weeks to come. Several officers, including Brig. Gens. Patton Anderson and States Rights Gist, voiced their disgust. Gist went so far as to describe Cleburne’s proposal as “monstrous…” Anderson said such action would violate the very thing the Confederacy was fighting for. Maj. Gen. Joseph Wheeler suggested Cleburne would have been hanged had he suggested such a thing in Alabama and Lt. Gen. A. P. Stewart likewise exhibited deep reservations.

 

Some have argued that Cleburne’s slavery proposal prevented him from ever again being promoted. There is no evidence to support this contention, but others did advance up the chain of command instead of him. The promotions of several other officers in the Army of Tennessee in 1864 show that perhaps Cleburne was indirectly punished for his radical suggestion. Whatever the case, he continued to serve in the army and on November 30, 1864 led his division into the maelstrom at Franklin. He was killed just south of the Carter cotton gin, and the South was deprived of one of its best field commanders. Less than four months later, when it was all too late, the Confederate Congress finally authorized the raising of black troops.

Patrick Cleburne’s well known proposal might never have been known to the public had it not been for one of the officers opposed to it. Maj. Calhoun Benham, who served as Cleburne’s chief of staff, was firmly against arming slaves and also disobeyed the order to destroy his copy of the document. After the war he lived in San Francisco and died there in 1884. After his death the copy of the slavery proposal was found in his papers. At the time the War Department was actively compiling the Official Records of the War of the Rebellion and the document was forwarded to Marcus Wright in Washington, D. C. So it was only through an odd set of circumstances that this remarkable piece of history survived and subsequently made its way into the largest collection of contemporary Civil War papers ever published. Today it is well known in Civil War circles, but for one man it would have been suppressed and lost forever.

 

 

The whole proposal is worth reading in full -- those are just a few of the highlights. Cleburne, who never owned a slave, fought for Arkansas and actual states rights beyond slavery and slavery alone.

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by MaybeACoordinator
poor structure

[Neonmoon 38127]

Mississippi also needs a new state flag 

[freyguy 4245]

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Turns out we made a huge mistake bringing the south back into the fold. Imagine our big beautiful American penis right now without the massive herpe sore of the south on it... 

Yeah, the fuckers in the north would have no where to move to. They'd  be in that hell hole of the northeast, mid west with their balmy winters....  Oh, and the football would suck ass water.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, the fuckers in the north would have no where to move to. They'd  be in that hell hole of the northeast, mid west with their balmy winters..

You say this as if Cedar Fever was a mild clearing of the throat once a year, my friend. 😉

I've found friends and Americans all across the US, even in Yankee Land.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Mrs Whiggins said:

You say this as if Cedar Fever was a mild clearing of the throat once a year, my friend. 😉

I've found friends and Americans all across the US, even in Yankee Land.

I'm just responding in kind to an ignorant post above mine.  I as well, and try not to disparage regions of the country wholesale, but I'll give it back when it's dished out.