I'm An Alcoholic

[Wyatt Mann 17]

Great post, swandered talent! 

[El Diablo 4232]

21 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Also I've been doing a deep dive on how the Oxford Group ended up spawning AA.  Fascinating stuff that happened from 1932-1939.

Speaking of, I was casually reading a New Age Thought book a few weeks back and the author mentioned AA, The Oxford Group and Bill W's wife's memoirs. It seemed to me to be a strange place for them to be brought up but he made it work, lol. Basically he was discussing focusness and how Bill had it and Ebby Thatcher didn't. Bill was not going to drink again no matter what and Ebby? Well, Ebby was kinda maybe going to try real hard.

[BearSchlong 8143]

And Ebby was pissed because he wasn't considered a founder.  Pride and ego much?

A lot of the credit for AA goes to non-alcoholics, Henrietta Seiberling and Anne Smith, who were right there with Bill and Bob that summer of 1936 when Bill lived with the Smiths in Akron.

AA would not have happened had Bill and Bob not, independent of each other, been active Oxford groupers in Akron and New York, respectively.

I can see how folks trying to actively live 1st century Christianity dovetailed nicely with New Age.  It's Spiritual, man. . . .

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

A pic is worth a thousand words...Got this tonight at Bouldin; I'm passing through Austin.

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

3 months is a big deal! 6 months is a really big deal. But it's the promise of happy, joyous, and free...for this alcoholic, that's the dream.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

10 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

A pic is worth a thousand words...Got this tonight at Bouldin; I'm passing through Austin.

 

Bouldin is such a great group. I haven't been back since I got out of rehab due to distance, but they did H&I at our place every Friday and we caravaned to them a few times. 

Congratulations on your chip! 

[Charles DeMar 221]

That's awesome, M.A.C.!  Congrats and "keep on keepin' on," as they say.

I'm an alcoholic contributor here, occasionally, but as an 8.5 month sober guy, I am new to how to serve other alcoholics.  People are seemingly coming out of the woodwork all of the sudden, as I'm an "expert" now.  I'm not.  I'd like to seek some "crosstalk" about helping someone in need.

 

Good friend is one of a handful I've trusted at work with my recovery journey.  He reached out the other day to ask what I thought he should do about a friend "about to lose it all due to his alcoholism."  Last night, my friend helped the wife of the "unconvinced" alcoholic move out after yet another boundary had been smashed through (drinking, lying about it, drinking in the house, lying about it, too).  The delusional alcoholic went to a very short rehab stint about a month ago, but had relapsed and we all know he's going in deeper.

 

Anyways, to my question - the work friend keeps saying he feels like throttling the drunk and "trying to make him wake up about all he's about to lose."  In addition to wife moving out (and a side note, wife is REALLY bought in that if the guy will seek help, she'll support him all the way - she wants to stay married), he's had several others say they're going to end the relationship if he doesn't stick with getting help.  I have said something along the lines of "the guy is not going to change unless he has a heart replacement - he has to want to change.  Nothing you can say is going to change him until he is ready to change, and if he's not going to change, he COULD lose it all, including his own life one way or another.  I get that you want to 'make him see," and I am not discouraging you from doing so if it makes you feel like you've done 'all you can,' but at some point, you are going to have to move on since it's this guy's decision to do something about it or not!"

 

That "feels" right, but ... I seek counsel from others with more experience.

Thanks to all.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

1 hour ago, Charles DeMar said:

That "feels" right, but ... I seek counsel from others with more experience.

I too will learn something new, if someone else can post a better way to approach this, because I don't see it.

I would add that they are setting themselves up for a really frustrating personal failure because any one of those 1x1 interventions MIGHT convince the drunk to stop, temporarily and with great sincerity that it's permanent, but as you say, until he's REALLY ready internally, none of those extrinsic motivations are really going to create true/lasting motivation to change.

Given our perverse and warped thinking, honestly any one of them might even make a really nice resentment for for an alcoholic to use as justification to drink again. That's how I was, anyway. I might be grateful an excuse to try to stop, in the moment, but I would be just as likely to change my mind and think "how fucking dare you, I'll show YOU, let's see how sick you feel when I drink this poison!" a day or a week later.

[Charles DeMar 221]

Awesome.  Thanks, ST.

 

CdM

[JohnnyRage 1617]

In my humble opinion, I don’t really see the point in trying to convince someone of anything that is willingly active and distraction. It’s detrimental to my sanity, and is outside of my control. However, the guilt will naturally exist if you are left feeling like you could have done more to save someone’s life.

If not at a personal bottom with the gift of desperation,  you almost have to catch them when they are newly clearheaded and dry but before the hamster wheel of doing it all over again starts really gets turning. But good luck even then.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Add:  my only requirement is to be there in service as a helping hand when another alcoholic reaches out for help. 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Double

Edited April 24, 2019 by JohnnyRage
Double post

[JohnnyRage 1617]

*active in destruction 

fml  The rare quadruple post 

Edited April 24, 2019 by JohnnyRage

[TwiceHorn 31705]

Swandered made the basic point.  However, any number of fairly unwilling drunks have commenced rehab or entry into AA and come out alive on the other side.  And sober.

It's worth a shot, but the entanglement is a hazard.

[BearSchlong 8143]

She needs to get her ass to Al Anon and call a lawyer. He needs consequences.

 

He needs to see the brutal truth about himself.

 

Alcohol is, after all, "the great persuader."

 

Not being a dick, I was that guy once. She might just save his life.

 

Not saying she has to divorce him, but he needs to get served, or some kind of serious intervention. His human resources need to fail him.

 

My drinking mentor died tonight at 48 from ketoacidosis, which though a diabetic thing I'm sure was aggravated by alcoholism. When I was 15 he introduced me to a friend who owned a liquor store and from then on I was a kid in a candy store. Strange to think that as a kid all I wanted to do was drink like my buddy, who i thought was cool as hell.

 

In recent years he tried to get sober, typical story, a sequence of failed marriages to batshit crazy women, but man his ego was impenetrable. Wouldn't go to meetings, got blackout drunk at his own wedding (again).

 

One of our mutual friends (who got sober at 22 and just picked up a 28 year chip) and I tried to offer the hand of AA. I had to call her a few minutes ago and tell her the sad news. Ironically, he was a money manager/stockbroker who had been given tremendous wealth but from what I hear he recently had to sell his million dollar home and move into a small condo with his wife and stepkids.

 

But for God's grace go I.

 

And as a reminder his mother's pew is next to mine at church.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TexArcher 38448]

23 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

A pic is worth a thousand words...Got this tonight at Bouldin; I'm passing through Austin.

 

That's a big one - congrats!

[BearSchlong 8143]

Indeed, congratulations on the most surreal period of sobriety. 3 months that I imagine felt like an eternity. Hold on to your ass and keep going, bro.

[El Diablo 4232]

7 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

She needs to get her ass to Al Anon and call a lawyer. He needs consequences.

 

He needs to see the brutal truth about himself.

 

Alcohol is, after all, "the great persuader."

 

Not being a dick, I was that guy once. She might just save his life.

 

Not saying she has to divorce him, but he needs to get served, or some kind of serious intervention. His human resources need to fail him.

 

My drinking mentor died tonight at 48 from ketoacidosis, which though a diabetic thing I'm sure was aggravated by alcoholism. When I was 15 he introduced me to a friend who owned a liquor store and from then on I was a kid in a candy store. Strange to think that as a kid all I wanted to do was drink like my buddy, who i thought was cool as hell.

 

In recent years he tried to get sober, typical story, a sequence of failed marriages to batshit crazy women, but man his ego was impenetrable. Wouldn't go to meetings, got blackout drunk at his own wedding (again).

 

One of our mutual friends (who got sober at 22 and just picked up a 28 year chip) and I tried to offer the hand of AA. I had to call her a few minutes ago and tell her the sad news. Ironically, he was a money manager/stockbroker who had been given tremendous wealth but from what I hear he recently had to sell his million dollar home and move into a small condo with his wife and stepkids.

 

But for God's grace go I.

 

And as a reminder his mother's pew is next to mine at church.

Sorry to hear about your friend losing the battle.

That said, I'm a sick bastard and what stood out to me here is that you have assigned seating in church?

[BearSchlong 8143]

Not assigned, we're just creatures of habit.  I have been to some VERY old churches in New England where families - and their descendants - have their own pews.

[Charles DeMar 221]

Thanks to all for the comments.  Friend reached out to other guy and basically said "we're done until you're going to be truthful." 

 

Thanks again,

 

CdM

[Dewey 3315]

What's the saying? The train stops for us when we stop it, or it stops itself (death).

Hate seeing people struggle with alcoholism and addiction, but when it starts to mess with my sobriety, my new way of life, I have to walk away. Cant save a drowning man if they are going to pull us down with them.

Hope the person you described realizes help is out there and to just surrender, let the help in.

[El Diablo 4232]

1 hour ago, BearSchlong said:

Not assigned, we're just creatures of habit.  I have been to some VERY old churches in New England where families - and their descendants - have their own pews.

I remember at St Louis in Waco, Msr Deering gave a prominent family a reserved pew one midnight Mass. All hell broke loose with the tongue wagging, lol. The next year that same family was in that pew again but they got there early AF to avoid any controversy.

[Al_4_ISU 12549]

3 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Not assigned, we're just creatures of habit.  I have been to some VERY old churches in New England where families - and their descendants - have their own pews.

I grew up in a tiny German Catholic community that wasn't even 100 years old when I was a kid, and families definitely had their pews (not assigned, just out of habit).  All of my grandparents' descendants that attended that church sat in the same pew.  My grandpa's mom sat with us too, even though 2 of my grandpa's siblings attended the church, but had pews farther from the front. 

She wanted to make sure everyone saw her sitting up front.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

If you're out there, it doesn't have to hurt like this.

[El Diablo 4232]

On 4/25/2019 at 1:30 PM, Al_4_ISU said:

I grew up in a tiny German Catholic community that wasn't even 100 years old when I was a kid, and families definitely had their pews (not assigned, just out of habit).  All of my grandparents' descendants that attended that church sat in the same pew.  My grandpa's mom sat with us too, even though 2 of my grandpa's siblings attended the church, but had pews farther from the front. 

She wanted to make sure everyone saw her sitting up front.

Yeah, I can see that in a small church. I grew up going to a fairly large church, I reckon we had 5 Masses on any Sunday and 2-3 on a weekday. Families had their preferred locations but with kids etc... their schedule on any given weekend could vary and so folks just kind of sat wherever. It would all depend on which Mass they went to and what time they got there.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

wow, this was 25 years ago

[El Diablo 4232]

3 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

wow, this was 25 years ago

Mid '70's or so he was for whatever reason at a big invitational track meet and signing autographs. I was in line and got about 5 or so folks away from my turn and could overhear him talking in a way that my mom would have washed his mouth out for. I got out of line and left without his autograph. /csb

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

I have a couple pieces of wall art in my office. Two of them are sort of yin/yang matching pieces: a framed reprint of Mickey Mantle's rookie card, and the other a concert shot of Stevie Ray Vaughan. The SRV photo is a reminder that you can stop, you can change, and you can get better. 

The Mantle rookie card is a reminder that you can really waste a lot of life if you don't.

[BearSchlong 8143]

Had my usual Friday lunch with my grand sponsor last week. His sponsor Roy B. from Odessa died in December with 51 yrs continuous sobriety. I reminded him that self sponsorship is dumb (smart ass!) and had he found another sponsor yet?

He replied he had, Dave C. From Raleigh NC, sobriety date 9/11/1957. Then gave me a CD of Dave's talk. Dave's sponsor was one of the first 100, and he served on the GSO board with Bill W.

I know that pedigree means absolute Jack shit, and I'm sure people laugh at me when I mention inconsequential things like this. But part of me is very impressed by shit like this, that a 90 year old man who got sober when Ike was president is still active in sponsorship. I remind my guys with 90 days sober that look, you have a line of people who have carried the message for a long time, and you can rely on us to shoot straight.

Kinda like the Pope is supposed to be traced to St. Peter or some such bullshit. . .

Lol at my quest for gravitas. I'm such an alcoholic. Thank God my own sponsor tells me I'm full of it.

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

Amazing how life passes you by.  This past Saturday was my 4-year anniversary and I didn't even realize.  One day at a time.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Dumb question, and I’m not gonna pretend like I am a student of philosophy, but is the program of alcoholics anonymous existential?

While a spiritual path, the genius of the program’ in my opinion, is that nobody’s gonna tell you what that is. 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

19 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

Dumb question, and I’m not gonna pretend like I am a student of philosophy, but is the program of alcoholics anonymous existential?

While a spiritual path, the genius of the program’ in my opinion, is that nobody’s gonna tell you what that is. 

Existential, I believe, has a meaning apart from "existentialist" philosophers.  I think it is existential, meaning concerned with the existence and in particular experience.  Existentialist philosophy, though, considers life essentially meaningless, and that you have to create your own meaning.  And that, I believe, is at odds with the higher power aspect of AA.

I am disgustingly ignorant of philosophy, though.  I have an education that is a mile wide and a half inch deep and philosophy didn't make it in there.

Edited April 30, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[BearSchlong 8143]

ETB, man that is wonderful!!!!  Congratulations!!!

[El Diablo 4232]

7 hours ago, ernest_t_bass said:

Amazing how life passes you by.  This past Saturday was my 4-year anniversary and I didn't even realize.  One day at a time.

Thanks for joining in the discussion back on TOS. Guys like you helped me to find the strength to reach out for help. I can't say thank you enough.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

On 4/23/2019 at 6:50 AM, SwanderedTalent said:

So a year ago today, I popped a couple of benzos and white-knuckled my way through my first day back from a 24x7, ten-day bender. I was sure I'd stay sober, this time. I was always sure "this time".

Picking this story up, I had been sober for seven days. I don't remember a ton about this time; my Daily Reflections and 24 Hrs A Day books have passages highlighted but not every day, so I was probably lukewarm internally while outwardly avowing I was going to stay sober this time.

Then, The Call. I scheduled a call with a peer and my boss to review status on a project that was supposed to culminate in a public presentation to our partner community ten days later. My boss was less than thrilled to realize that I had nothing planned, no topic selected, no subject matter experts lined up to develop content or deliver it. To my alcoholic brain, well, sure, that was precisely the challenge! The call went as poorly as you might expect, if you've ever been a boss or a drunk, and he ended by saying "I'll call you in a minute."

That call-- The Call-- basically went like this.

Boss (angry): "So, I don't know what's going on but I feel like you think you have a part-time job. Like you get paid $xxx,xxx to work when you feel like it, and..."

I tuned him out at that point so I could try to pin down an emotion. I wanted to be angry, I wanted to be defensive, but mostly I felt pants-shitting terror. My position isn't one of critical corporate importance but when your boss references your specific salary, it's a sign he's doing some cost-benefit analysis. It dawned on me for perhaps the first time that I wasn't seen as a slightly unpredictable and eccentric genius idea guy but as an unreliable bullshitter. Didn't he know how hard I had worked to keep up my facade as a model employee all the times I was passed out drunk at 11 AM in a puddle of urine in a hotel room? How well I juggled my work/life balance, especially when I didn't even want to be alive anymore?

Well if your boss having such an incorrect and unfair opinion of you wasn't reason to drink, I didn't know what else was. If realizing in cold, stark terms that I was on the verge of irrevocably losing something wasn't an excuse to blot out the pain of existing, what else could or would be?

So out I went. 

[BearSchlong 8143]

I got chills reading that.

[TtomTerrific 200]

On 5/1/2019 at 10:32 AM, SwanderedTalent said:

Picking this story up, I had been sober for seven days. I don't remember a ton about this time; my Daily Reflections and 24 Hrs A Day books have passages highlighted but not every day, so I was probably lukewarm internally while outwardly avowing I was going to stay sober this time.

Then, The Call. I scheduled a call with a peer and my boss to review status on a project that was supposed to culminate in a public presentation to our partner community ten days later. My boss was less than thrilled to realize that I had nothing planned, no topic selected, no subject matter experts lined up to develop content or deliver it. To my alcoholic brain, well, sure, that was precisely the challenge! The call went as poorly as you might expect, if you've ever been a boss or a drunk, and he ended by saying "I'll call you in a minute."

That call-- The Call-- basically went like this.

Boss (angry): "So, I don't know what's going on but I feel like you think you have a part-time job. Like you get paid $xxx,xxx to work when you feel like it, and..."

I tuned him out at that point so I could try to pin down an emotion. I wanted to be angry, I wanted to be defensive, but mostly I felt pants-shitting terror. My position isn't one of critical corporate importance but when your boss references your specific salary, it's a sign he's doing some cost-benefit analysis. It dawned on me for perhaps the first time that I wasn't seen as a slightly unpredictable and eccentric genius idea guy but as an unreliable bullshitter. Didn't he know how hard I had worked to keep up my facade as a model employee all the times I was passed out drunk at 11 AM in a puddle of urine in a hotel room? How well I juggled my work/life balance, especially when I didn't even want to be alive anymore?

Well if your boss having such an incorrect and unfair opinion of you wasn't reason to drink, I didn't know what else was. If realizing in cold, stark terms that I was on the verge of irrevocably losing something wasn't an excuse to blot out the pain of existing, what else could or would be?

So out I went. 

so...so good.  thank you. 

[BearSchlong 8143]

so...so good.  thank you. 

How you doing man?

[TtomTerrific 200]

hey Will.. bout the same... how are you? 

[El Diablo 4232]

Woke up to my phone chirping every minute or so, group text messages (didn't even know I was IN a group). My nephew, who I have mentioned in this thread on occasion over the last year or two, died suddenly last night/early today. 

My sister was here in Waco helping our mother move from assisted living to nursing care and has gone back to Kansas to her family. Aaron was the oldest of her 3 kids, all boys.

Word I got was that he fell down some stairs, hit his head and died. @BurntEyes can probably attest to the dangers of such an accident.

Knowing his family this may or may not be what happened. He was, last I heard, in recovery. He'd done a stint in a rehab facility earlier this year and had a sponsor. Pretty much all I know. The odds of a healthy 40 year old guy falling down stairs and dying are probably pretty slim but I guess it could happen.

Sigh. Regardless, it's a huge loss. He had a son who as of this post has not yet been told. We haven't told my mom yet either. 

I like to think that I was his favorite uncle, I lived with them briefly after I got out of the Navy and was the "fun" uncle. I could relate to he and his brothers shenanigans because I had a little family reputation of being a black sheep hell raiser. 

 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

Condolences, Diablo.

[El Diablo 4232]

Thanks man, it's kinda hard to digest. 

[El Diablo 4232]

Same guy survived a baseball bat to the noggin when he was in high school, iirc in a case of mistaken identity some guy wailed him blindside in a parking lot. They almost lost him then though one of his brothers told me that their dad never let my sis know just how close he came to dying. BIL retired recently after 35 or so years as a hospital exec/CEO and when that happened 20 years ago he knew where to get him for the best care. All I know about his death was what I was told and it was that he died very quickly. Sigh. 

[BearSchlong 8143]

Oh buddy I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Kennythetiger 9503]

I am very sorry to hear this. 

[TtomTerrific 200]

sorry for your loss, Diablo 

[gasman 114]

Diablo, sorry for your loss man. That's just horrible. 

[El Diablo 4232]

Thank you everyone for the kind words, I'm still trying to digest it. I talked to my sister today and she said that he had not stayed sober and that his GF had kicked him out, with love but it had to be done. Sis and BIL let him move into their house (bad move IMO but it's a bit late for MMQB). They were here in Waco when they got the call from his GF, not sure if she was there at the time or what. Maybe he was sober maybe he got shitfaced as soon as they left the house. Anyway he fell on the stairs to the basement and cracked his head on the tile floor.

She said that he never regained any semblance of consciousness but that he's still technically alive as they harvest his organs. He'll be cremated once they have taken from his body what they can and in a couple of weeks there will be a memorial service. It's hard to say that alcohol killed the guy but it certainly played a part in him being where he was, when he was. 

His son turned 11 on Thursday of this past week.

But for the grace of God. 

[BearSchlong 8143]

Heartbreaking. Just heartbreaking. So sorry for that kid.

[BearSchlong 8143]

Was going to hear a 5th step from this 22 year old that I sponsor. Went to the halfway house and he wasnt there. We had an appointment set since Wednesday and he had confirmed via a text message this morning. There was zero miscommunication. For 2 months he's been Mr. AA. willing and desperate.

So I'm all excited because I remember my own first 5th step, what a glorious Sunday morning unloading the poison.

Texted him, he said he was at church in a neighboring city and it went longer than expected.

I replied "what's her name"

No response other than I'm coming there now.

An hour later I'm still talking with 2 of my other sponsees that have multiple years that are, quite frankly, stunning miracles of recovery.

Texted the kid "I'm going home. Call me when you're priorities are straight."

Get off my lawn, kid. Pussy still undefeated.

But I'm still sober.

22 but was homeless for 2 years after a tour in Afganistan and a medical discharge. And some treatment center girl with pink hair conveniently appears as a higher power.

Lol my 22 year old self says shut up old man, cant you see I'm in love and I might get to dip my wick?