I'm An Alcoholic

[TwiceHorn 31534]

4 hours ago, strangulation! said:

Thanks for all the insights, and the quoted above is my fear. He’s been told to stop drinking or he will die, presumably he has the wherewithal to know the burden that will leave on his wife and young kids.

Also, the recovery people understand what I mean here, but I should probably offer a nutshell explanation.

Most alcoholics and addicts seem to have some biological, probably genetic, predisposition to drinking a lot and experiencing craving for alcohol beyond any physical withdrawal.

But they also have a peculiar psychology that makes them especially vulnerable to returning to drinking because they go a bit insane when they don't get to drink.  That boils down to "control."  An alcoholic seems not to have a fundamental understanding that damn near everything in life is out of their control.  One thing they find they can control, for a period of time, is their mood, by drinking/drugging.  And, of course, that gets out of control too.  So until an alcoholic or addict has a fundamental change of world view and how they relate to the world, other people, and themselves, they are miserable, whether drinking or not and their minds tell them that drinking is sweet relief to that misery, but it really isn't.

There are a bunch of extra nuances to that, but that is the fundamental problem for most alcoholics and addicts.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

5 hours ago, strangulation! said:

Thanks for all the insights, and the quoted above is my fear. He’s been told to stop drinking or he will die, presumably he has the wherewithal to know the burden that will leave on his wife and young kids.

You get so far gone you start to think they'd be better off without you. 

[strangulation! 1716]

9 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

You get so far gone you start to think they'd be better off without you. 

Thanks I hadn’t considered that. That’s horrible 

[TwiceHorn 31534]

One of the main nuances, as a concerned family member, is that that alcoholic or addict displays symptoms of some or all of the common psychological disorders:  anxiety, depression, bipolar, even schizophrenia/persistent psychosis.  

They check most of the boxes in the DSM for diagnosis by a psych professional.  However, a psych pro won't attempt a diagnosis while the person is actively drinking/using.  Most or all of these symptoms resolve with abstinence.  Extended use of alcohol or other drugs fucks up the receptors in the brain and mimics these disorders.  But with extended sobriety, the number of receptors and amounts of brain chemicals will likely normalize.

This is not to discount co-occurring mental health issues.  Those happen and are real, but can't be diagnosed or treated until the patient is sober for an extended period.

The reason I mention these things is that no one, including the family, tends to want to admit that the patient is an alcoholic or addict (denial).  There is a tendency to want to believe that they are depressed or whatever, and that some light duty therapy and a Prozac scrip will fix them right up.  The addict is happy as hell to go along with this.  Don't fall for it.

[RDCanecutter 26468]

13 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

You get so far gone you start to think they'd be better off without you. 

Mama in Selma says "Hi."

[hullabelew 3724]

Doctors' warnings, jail, family leaving me, losing a job, friends and family talking to me, my thoughts of driving into a bridge abutment, numerous car 'mishaps', ....none was enough to make me want to quit.   It wasn't until I went to rehab, got my head clear and feet underneath me and I learned why I was drinking, that I wanted to quit.  That I even COULD quit. 

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

20 hours ago, hullabelew said:

Doctors' warnings, jail, family leaving me, losing a job, friends and family talking to me, my thoughts of driving into a bridge abutment, numerous car 'mishaps', ....none was enough to make me want to quit.   It wasn't until I went to rehab, got my head clear and feet underneath me and I learned why I was drinking, that I wanted to quit.  That I even COULD quit. 

but hullabelew, you have so much to live for if you just stop drinking!

yeah the "frothy emotional appeals" from non-drinkers might as well have been spoken in Martian, none of it made a difference to me.

what it took for me was enough practical experience to decide a) there was no fun left in it, no feeling I was "getting away" with something, b) no escape left in it, no ability to be blissfully ignorant of what was going on around me, and c) it was just getting worse every time. I never thought I'd drink like I was drinking at the end, and it finally dawned on me that this wasn't the last step on the staircase, in terms of my dependence on alcohol. There really were lower steps (greater levels of dependence) that I was going to hit on the way down if I didn't winch on the steering column as hard as I could one last time. I don't think crashing a car or any of that other shit would have done it, I had to get physically hooked and know it and marinate in it for a while to realize "not only does this suck, it's going to suck worse and worse and on the way to death there will probably be a lot more physical pain". 

Edited November 10, 2020 by SwanderedTalent

[BearSchlong 8111]

On 11/8/2020 at 4:20 PM, strangulation! said:

Wife and two young kids. Wife knows he needs help but is almost at her wit’s end. His sweet kids are probably oblivious as it’s all they’ve known of him. His parents/siblings would only pour gas on the fire. 

Let's not overcomplicate something that is very simple, but not easy.

Buy him a copy of this book - of which 40 Million have been sold - https://smile.amazon.com/Alcoholics-AAWS/dp/1893007162/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alcoholics+anonymous&qid=1605018763&sr=8-3

Buy the wife a copy of this book - https://smile.amazon.com/Courage-Change-One-Time-Al-Anon/dp/0910034796/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alanon+courage+to+change&qid=1605018885&sr=8-3

Everything needed to solve the family's problem is contained in those books.

If he asks for help, I'll be happy to call him, zoom meeting, maybe in-person if practical.

[strangulation! 1716]

14 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Let's not overcomplicate something that is very simple, but not easy.

Buy him a copy of this book - of which 40 Million have been sold - https://smile.amazon.com/Alcoholics-AAWS/dp/1893007162/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alcoholics+anonymous&qid=1605018763&sr=8-3

Buy the wife a copy of this book - https://smile.amazon.com/Courage-Change-One-Time-Al-Anon/dp/0910034796/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alanon+courage+to+change&qid=1605018885&sr=8-3

Everything needed to solve the family's problem is contained in those books.

If he asks for help, I'll be happy to call him, zoom meeting, maybe in-person if practical.

thank you. books arrive tomorrow. and i greatly appreciate the offer to talk to him, i will reach out to you if he's open.

[Herbie Hancock 7373]

Let's not overcomplicate something that is very simple, but not easy.
Buy him a copy of this book - of which 40 Million have been sold - https://smile.amazon.com/Alcoholics-AAWS/dp/1893007162/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alcoholics+anonymous&qid=1605018763&sr=8-3
Buy the wife a copy of this book - https://smile.amazon.com/Courage-Change-One-Time-Al-Anon/dp/0910034796/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alanon+courage+to+change&qid=1605018885&sr=8-3
Everything needed to solve the family's problem is contained in those books.
If he asks for help, I'll be happy to call him, zoom meeting, maybe in-person if practical.

Just ordered this for my friend that you and I have spoken about previously. Almost 8 months of sobriety and he went off the rails a few weeks ago. This tailspin is accelerated much faster than any of the previous ones and it’s not become obvious to the people above us that he has a problem. The kind of people that are paid to make business decisions and have zero sympathy or empathy.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

3 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

This tailspin is accelerated much faster than any of the previous ones

This is very much a characteristic of the disease.  Many, including the big book, contend that the disease progresses even while you are not drinking.  So that, if you resume, you're not just where you left off, but actually worse.

Whatever the physiology or pathology involved, it seems empirically true that things will rapidly, if not immediately, become as bad or worse than when you stopped drinking.  It can either provide a mighty impetus to get sober and get with the program, or cause one to give up.  It can be a dangerous time.

[hullabelew 3724]

42 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

but hullabelew, you have so much to live for if you just stop drinking!

yeah the "frothy emotional appeals" from non-drinkers might as well have been spoken in Martian, none of it made a difference to me.

what it took for me was enough practical experience to decide a) there was no fun left in it, no feeling I was "getting away" with something, b) no escape left in it, no ability to be blissfully ignorant of what was going on around me, and c) it was just getting worse every time. I never thought I'd drink like I was drinking at the end, and it finally dawned on me that this wasn't the last step on the staircase, in terms of my dependence on alcohol. There really were lower steps (greater levels of dependence) that I was going to hit on the way down if I didn't winch on the steering column as hard as I could one last time. I don't think crashing a car or any of that other shit would have done it, I had to get physically hooked and know it and marinate in it for a while to realize "not only does this suck, it's going to suck worse and worse and on the way to death there will probably be a lot more physical pain". 

No doubt.  Two of the people that helped me the most were a couple of drinking buddies that I worked with and have known both of the for YEARS.  One problem though was, we would go have drinks with lunch, they would go back to work and I would relocate to a different watering hole.  Plus, I had already had a couple of shots before lunch as well.  Then, when Drunk Gay Adam from one of the bars tells me about 3am one morning,  "We are really worried about you."   Not I, but WE.  As in the other drunks in the bar.  This, coming from a guy in his mid 30s that doesn't even have his own apartment.   Still couch surfing.   But still, I honestly didn't care if I lived or died at that moment.  I had already made reservations to go to rehab at that point...but when I was walking out of jail that next day.....

[Herbie Hancock 7373]

I don’t know if this was right or wrong, but I’m at a loss and still having a hard time with accepting what Bear told me many times about there being nothing and no one that can do this for him, it’s all on him.

But I asked him last night what he wanted me to say at his funeral. He started to cry again and said he didn’t want to die, but he continues to do the same things and with the same people that he’s been doing that continually lead him back to the bottle. 3 trips to rehab and one trip to detox in a local hospital in the last 25 months and he continues to lose this battle and then make every excuse he can think of to justify his failures. This sucks

[ztejas 43533]

25 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

But I asked him last night what he wanted me to say at his funeral. He started to cry again and said he didn’t want to die, but he continues to do the same things and with the same people that he’s been doing that continually lead him back to the bottle.

Sounds about right. There tends to be a disconnect between what people think should convince someone to get sober and what a true alcoholic actually needs. And that's not to say that your line of thinking was wrong or without merit - but of course he didn't change his behavior. Shit, I'm surprised he cried. In my addiction I would have told you to go fuck yourself if you told me something like that. 

But again - that doesn't mean you're wrong - it just means that it's a difficult thing to understand from the outside looking in. My dad - who's one of the best people I know 2nd only maybe to HIS dad - was somehow able to understand this despite never having an issue with alcohol himself. When I was in rehab, he told me that part of him wanted to have an intervention and try and force me to get help after I almost killed myself DUI (two years prior to ME asking for help), but what stayed his hand was him being able to understand that for it to be genuine and real and stick it had to come from ME. 

Looking back - no fucking WAY an intervention would have worked back then. Sure, I might have cried and said things like your buddy like "I don't want to die" but I wasn't done using yet. I needed more experience and a lower "bottom". Shit, I hadn't even found my ultimate DoC by that point. 

What I'm trying to say is that nothing you are saying or attempting is necessarily "wrong" - but it isn't about what YOU have to say about the matter. It's about when HE decides it's time. Horse and the water and all that.

Despite that, some things I might suggest are finding a recovering alcoholic with a good amount of sobriety under their belt that he will sit down and listen to talk to him. See if he would attend a meeting with you (you are just as welcome as he is). Let him know that you're there for him whenever HE (again - stressing this because it's key - HE) decides to get help and that you will help him look at options.

----

40 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

3 trips to rehab and one trip to detox in a local hospital in the last 25 months and he continues to lose this battle

(and as a p.s. - if I may - that ain't shit and doesn't mean that it won't eventually work as long as he keeps coming back. You'd be dumbfounded at how many rehabs some of the people in the rooms have attended - let alone detoxes)

[BearSchlong 8111]

54 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

I don’t know if this was right or wrong, but I’m at a loss and still having a hard time with accepting what Bear told me many times about there being nothing and no one that can do this for him, it’s all on him.

But I asked him last night what he wanted me to say at his funeral. He started to cry again and said he didn’t want to die, but he continues to do the same things and with the same people that he’s been doing that continually lead him back to the bottle. 3 trips to rehab and one trip to detox in a local hospital in the last 25 months and he continues to lose this battle and then make every excuse he can think of to justify his failures. This sucks

Something I've been meditating on for the past few weeks. . .from page 58 of Alcoholics Anonymous

Quote

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

The first 500 times I heard this read at meetings I thought to my self those poor souls, unwilling to be honest, shame on them, they're missing out, why can't they get it? They must not be trying hard enough.

Almost 10 years working with alcoholics has taught me that the quoted paragraph is true, there are people who cannot give themselves to the program, and they are constitutionally incapable of self-honesty.  And they are not at fault - they are naturally incapable.  Incapable, incapable, incapable.

That's like if someone told me good news, I could save my life - but I had to grow a 3rd head.  Or grow a 2nd set of nipples and start producing milk.  Incapable of doing those things.

Their chances are less than average.  That's probably the best guess effort for the author, though I'm sure statistics exist as to the number of recoveries exclusive of AA.

Lately, I've been working with a sponsee who just completed his 5th rehab, I've known him for at least 5 years, been watching him circle the drain for a long time. . .finally he asked me to be his sponsor - not because I'm good, but because I'm available and willing.  And it's a wonderfully liberating experience, knowing that I have zero influence over his honesty.  My job is to simply take him through the steps as written in the book, which is simply my insurance premium.

to @ztejass point, maybe this is the time.  Maybe he needs to go to rehab a few more times.  Maybe it'll take another 10 years.  But it might just happen, and it's gonna be on God's terms.

Edited November 10, 2020 by BearSchlong

[hullabelew 3724]

There was a dude in my rehab who was on his 17th rehab.  He told me, "I do great in here but when I leave, it is like leaving a dark night and walking into a Las Vegas casino.  I just can't deal with life outside of rehab."  

[BearSchlong 8111]

To that point, @hullabelew, My friend Karl M. (Covina, CA) (google his AA talk, it's everywhere) said something when I was new that snapped into my psyche.

He was about 5 years sober, recently discharged from the Navy and was relocating to finish college.  He stopped by the local AA place in his new town so that he would be familiar in case he needed it.  By the coffeepot, and old-timer held out his hand and said I haven't seen you around here before, Karl says yeah, you won't see much of me, I've been sober a while, I'm going to finish college and get on with my life and start making up for lost time.

The old timer started laughing and said young man, we don't visit AA when it's convenient or when we need it.  We live in AA and visit the outside world.

What do football teams do between plays?  They huddle up and plan the next play.  That's what we do in AA, we huddle up and then go run a play in the outside world, then come back and do it all over again.  The outside life is the one we have between meetings.

And of course that guy became Karl's sponsor.

[Herbie Hancock 7373]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Sounds about right. There tends to be a disconnect between what people think should convince someone to get sober and what a true alcoholic actually needs. And that's not to say that your line of thinking was wrong or without merit - but of course he didn't change his behavior. Shit, I'm surprised he cried. In my addiction I would have told you to go fuck yourself if you told me something like that. 

But again - that doesn't mean you're wrong - it just means that it's a difficult thing to understand from the outside looking in. My dad - who's one of the best people I know 2nd only maybe to HIS dad - was somehow able to understand this despite never having an issue with alcohol himself. When I was in rehab, he told me that part of him wanted to have an intervention and try and force me to get help after I almost killed myself DUI (two years prior to ME asking for help), but what stayed his hand was him being able to understand that for it to be genuine and real and stick it had to come from ME. 

What I'm trying to say is that nothing you are saying or attempting is necessarily "wrong" - but it isn't about what YOU have to say about the matter. It's about when HE decides it's time. Horse and the water and all that.

Despite that, some things I might suggest are finding a recovering alcoholic with a good amount of sobriety under their belt that he will sit down and listen to talk to him. See if he would attend a meeting with you (you are just as welcome as he is). Let him know that you're there for him whenever HE (again - stressing this because it's key - HE) decides to get help and that you will help him look at options.

 

Yes I'm well aware of that unfortunately. I was on tapa earlier so I guess I didn't articulate my point very well. I wasn't trying to scare him in to stopping, it took many messages and a couple phone calls with Bear to finally make me realize that there is absolutely fuck all I can do to influence him to change. No magic words that will make him snap out of it. I was more so reminding him of the morbid reality that is what he's been told by several doctors. He spent a week last year in a coma because he was having such bad seizures from the withdrawals. To the point that every time they tried to wean him off of sedation he would seize. That went on for five days. When he was discharged the doctor told him that she was unsure if his system could handle another relapse, so he's got to get it together this time  because he may not live to try again.

 Just like you said and Bear said the exact words to me 18 months ago, the addict has to hit rock bottom before they'll make changes and everyones rock bottom is different. Bear even went so far as to warn me that many times their rock bottom is death. That one hurt but I understand completely what he meant. I can't remember the term Bear used, but I believe it was "Letting go with love" or something similar. Essentially step away and quit helping him fight his battles and fielding him from the consequences of his actions, because we're only hindering his recovery. That has been very hard. 

At no point in the last two+ years that he's been dealing with this have I ever been scared for him or thought we couldn't get him right. This morning I sat on my porch for a long time and couldn't find motivation to do anything. I legitimately feel like crying because I feel like he's racing towards the finish line in the worst way....I feel like I'm just rambling at this point so I'll hang up and listen. Thanks to everyone for their input and advice it is greatly appreciated.

[BearSchlong 8111]

The corollary to "detaching with love" is "allowing one the dignity of experiencing the consequences of their actions"

That last one gives me chills.  As if there's much dignity in drinking oneself to death. 

 

[ztejas 43533]

15 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

Bear even went so far as to warn me that many times their rock bottom is death.

Yep. "Too far gone" is how I describe it. It's always sad. Hopefully that isn't where your friend is at.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

By the same token as all the chronic rehab relapsers, I have known quite a few that went to rehab "under duress," but nevertheless came around and either stayed sober or got sober again for keeps within a few months of leaving rehab.

But, it is also true that one stint in rehab rarely results in long-term sobriety.  It may take repeated stints, or a relapse or two, but it doesn't often work first shot out of the box.  I think CeleryMan is the exception that proves that rule.

It varies wildly as to what it may take to get someone to want it.  I think it is helpful to hit pause in rehab and experience the sober life for even a month or two.  It presents an alternative to the drinking life that is probably unfathomable to the alcoholic until they experience it.  Then they want to have it along with some drinks, find out that aint gonna work, and may get back to the sober life as soon as they can muster it.

[Brisketexan 105313]

I'm not an addict, and while I've had plenty of contacts and family members with the disease, addiction hasn't hammered me directly.  But I know enough about it from my limited experiences to say this: there are folks in this thread who I might like, or might not like.  Who I might agree with, or who I might think are stupid fucking assholes.  But I'll say this.....every one of you walking this path, and working the steps, has my respect.  Life is hard work -- all of it.  But this particular angle on life, it takes LOTS of work, and an honesty with yourself that is really hard for most people.  I tune into this thread every now and then to check y'all out, and watch in something close to awe. 

Keep on doing your work.  And know that complete strangers seeing just a fragment of what you are doing are impressed, and support you.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 who I might think are stupid fucking assholes. 

Hey now!

I would say you are a pretty good example of someone who knows innately what we had to struggle to learn.

There are a fair number of people who exhibit a lot of the same problems that alcoholics and addicts have without manifesting in the disease.  I guess they don't have the "disease of the body," but have some similar "obsessions of the mind."

A freshly sober alkie sees drunks everywhere!

[Brisketexan 105313]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Hey now!

I would say you are a pretty good example of someone who knows innately what we had to struggle to learn.

There are a fair number of people who exhibit a lot of the same problems that alcoholics and addicts have without manifesting in the disease.  I guess they don't have the "disease of the body," but have some similar "obsessions of the mind."

A freshly sober alkie sees drunks everywhere!

Don't presume any wisdom on my part.  The rest of us "normies" usually have different demons we wrestle with, with varying means of success.  My character flaws are many, impressive, and largely unresolved.  It's just that none of them lead me to wreck my car and shit.  So, maybe that's what some of us normies get -- we see ourselves doing a not-so-great, rather undisciplined job of handling our shit, and we see y'all doing the hard and dedicated work to handle your shit.....and we admire it.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Don't presume any wisdom on my part.  The rest of us "normies" usually have different demons we wrestle with, with varying means of success.  My character flaws are many, impressive, and largely unresolved.  It's just that none of them lead me to wreck my car and shit.  So, maybe that's what some of us normies get -- we see ourselves doing a not-so-great, rather undisciplined job of handling our shit, and we see y'all doing the hard and dedicated work to handle your shit.....and we admire it.

No, it's not wisdom or freedom from character defects.  Hell, to some extent you violate one of our main principles of staying in the present rather than becoming obsessed with the (in your case) future or past.

But you're involved and in-service to your fellow man, maybe as a product of that Jesuit education, and that helps keep you in balance.  You accept your defects and don't let them undermine you.  You seem to have a good sense of place in the universe.

Progress, not perfection.  And the alkie needs to make some serious progress in a gotdam hurry, while others are more free to progress over their lifetimes.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Don't presume any wisdom on my part.  The rest of us "normies" usually have different demons we wrestle with, with varying means of success.  My character flaws are many, impressive, and largely unresolved.  It's just that none of them lead me to wreck my car and shit.  So, maybe that's what some of us normies get -- we see ourselves doing a not-so-great, rather undisciplined job of handling our shit, and we see y'all doing the hard and dedicated work to handle your shit.....and we admire it.

Have known since 1984, can vouch. 

Haha, love you man, thanks for your support. 

[RDCanecutter 26468]

21 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Have known since 1984, can vouch.

Loved y'alls band.

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

12 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Let's not overcomplicate something that is very simple, but not easy.

Buy him a copy of this book - of which 40 Million have been sold - https://smile.amazon.com/Alcoholics-AAWS/dp/1893007162/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alcoholics+anonymous&qid=1605018763&sr=8-3

Buy the wife a copy of this book - https://smile.amazon.com/Courage-Change-One-Time-Al-Anon/dp/0910034796/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=alanon+courage+to+change&qid=1605018885&sr=8-3

For this alcoholic, everything needed to solve the family's problem was contained in those books when willing to follow a few suggestions.

If he asks for help, I'll be happy to call him, zoom meeting, maybe in-person if practical.

FIFY Bear, thank you for your service.

[DallasHorn26 586]

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

By the same token as all the chronic rehab relapsers, I have known quite a few that went to rehab "under duress," but nevertheless came around and either stayed sober or got sober again for keeps within a few months of leaving rehab.

But, it is also true that one stint in rehab rarely results in long-term sobriety.  It may take repeated stints, or a relapse or two, but it doesn't often work first shot out of the box.  I think CeleryMan is the exception that proves that rule.

It varies wildly as to what it may take to get someone to want it.  I think it is helpful to hit pause in rehab and experience the sober life for even a month or two.  It presents an alternative to the drinking life that is probably unfathomable to the alcoholic until they experience it.  Then they want to have it along with some drinks, find out that aint gonna work, and may get back to the sober life as soon as they can muster it.

This was my experience. Went to rehab and made it to a little over 100 days before going back out and thought I was the exception to the rule  and things wouldn't have progressed. Yeah..I thought wrong. That pause and glimpse of how great sober life can be was enough motivation to bring me back in.

[Celery Man 20996]

I feel like I must have talked about this, but it's... actually maybe somewhat probable that I didn't? Maybe some lingering false pride in my early recovery, but as I've said before I wasn't really "all the way" back for a while and I honestly can't remember how I felt about. I stayed with my sister for my first year of recovery. Numerous are the ways in which I am blessed. I really didn't want to go to a halfway house or something like that coming out of rehab, and my sister in Austin was vocal that I should stay with them. Also my brother in law, who is very much family and had a dad who dabbled in alcoholism (he quit but didn't do AA, I have no idea what the nature of his drinking problem was). And my nieces and nephews, spaced 2 years apart with probably the oldest at 10 the only one to maybe guess that something was weird about Uncle Celery who was really sick and then stayed in the pool house (numerous, the blessings are) for a year. Anyways, I had a lot of support and.... characterizing it as supervision or accountability might give the wrong impression, but I couldn't have strayed much without my shit getting fucked up. Part of that dynamic though was that I had isolated and been off destroying myself, but I hadn't burned people or been eroding those relationships up close and personal when I was actively drinking. They weren't past second chances and into enabling, and I still had a healthy fear of breaking relationships which hadn't yet been broken. I was a youngish single guy drinking himself to death, still afraid of what his family would think when they found out, I got found out, and it was bumper bowling for a year with concerned people who I didn't want to let down. If I had been less fortunate any step along the way (including active in my drinking when I didn't wreck my car or lose my job or otherwise end up asking for help when I wasn't in a position to receive it) it would have been a tougher road back. Tougher but still possible, and falling down a few times along the way is part of the deal for most people who recover.

We're officially expecting a baby girl in May. I have a little bit of... guilt, like maybe we I should've gotten snipped and we should have just adopted. Certainly she'll have a higher chance than others of experiencing some of the problems I've had to deal with, but I guess that die is cast and I'll be there for it. Apart from that feeling though... fucking thrilled.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

@Celery ManFuck all that, congratulations man.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Having said that, yeah in ways I worry about my 5 year old too - impulsivity...loves candy too much. But I'm worrying about and creating shit that isn't there yet.

[ztejas 43533]

2 hours ago, Celery Man said:

I feel like I must have talked about this, but it's... actually maybe somewhat probable that I didn't? Maybe some lingering false pride in my early recovery, but as I've said before I wasn't really "all the way" back for a while and I honestly can't remember how I felt about. I stayed with my sister for my first year of recovery. Numerous are the ways in which I am blessed. I really didn't want to go to a halfway house or something like that coming out of rehab, and my sister in Austin was vocal that I should stay with them. Also my brother in law, who is very much family and had a dad who dabbled in alcoholism (he quit but didn't do AA, I have no idea what the nature of his drinking problem was). And my nieces and nephews, spaced 2 years apart with probably the oldest at 10 the only one to maybe guess that something was weird about Uncle Celery who was really sick and then stayed in the pool house (numerous, the blessings are) for a year. Anyways, I had a lot of support and.... characterizing it as supervision or accountability might give the wrong impression, but I couldn't have strayed much without my shit getting fucked up. Part of that dynamic though was that I had isolated and been off destroying myself, but I hadn't burned people or been eroding those relationships up close and personal when I was actively drinking. They weren't past second chances and into enabling, and I still had a healthy fear of breaking relationships which hadn't yet been broken. I was a youngish single guy drinking himself to death, still afraid of what his family would think when they found out, I got found out, and it was bumper bowling for a year with concerned people who I didn't want to let down. If I had been less fortunate any step along the way (including active in my drinking when I didn't wreck my car or lose my job or otherwise end up asking for help when I wasn't in a position to receive it) it would have been a tougher road back. Tougher but still possible, and falling down a few times along the way is part of the deal for most people who recover.

We're officially expecting a baby girl in May. I have a little bit of... guilt, like maybe we I should've gotten snipped and we should have just adopted. Certainly she'll have a higher chance than others of experiencing some of the problems I've had to deal with, but I guess that die is cast and I'll be there for it. Apart from that feeling though... fucking thrilled.

Lot of similarities over here. Thanks for sharing. 

Main difference coming to mind is that I relapsed very soon after 50 days in rehab and very nearly fucked up me and my mom's relationship to where I wasn't welcome to stay with her- although she ended up pretty quick to forgive. (Oh, and then also, I'm still in early recovery so in no way do I qualify as a one chip wonder)

We're probably just going in fucking circles on this thread, but that's what we do in AA. I know I have some LONG posts going into more detail on a lot of this somewhere around here. Haven't scrolled back through and reread the one in particular I'm thinking of - kind of fine with not rereading it.

Edited November 12, 2020 by ztejas

[BearSchlong 8111]

One Chip Wonder lol not sure I heard that before.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:20 PM, Celery Man said:

I feel like I must have talked about this, but it's... actually maybe somewhat probable that I didn't? Maybe some lingering false pride in my early recovery, but as I've said before I wasn't really "all the way" back for a while and I honestly can't remember how I felt about. I stayed with my sister for my first year of recovery. Numerous are the ways in which I am blessed. I really didn't want to go to a halfway house or something like that coming out of rehab, and my sister in Austin was vocal that I should stay with them. Also my brother in law, who is very much family and had a dad who dabbled in alcoholism (he quit but didn't do AA, I have no idea what the nature of his drinking problem was). And my nieces and nephews, spaced 2 years apart with probably the oldest at 10 the only one to maybe guess that something was weird about Uncle Celery who was really sick and then stayed in the pool house (numerous, the blessings are) for a year. Anyways, I had a lot of support and.... characterizing it as supervision or accountability might give the wrong impression, but I couldn't have strayed much without my shit getting fucked up. Part of that dynamic though was that I had isolated and been off destroying myself, but I hadn't burned people or been eroding those relationships up close and personal when I was actively drinking. They weren't past second chances and into enabling, and I still had a healthy fear of breaking relationships which hadn't yet been broken. I was a youngish single guy drinking himself to death, still afraid of what his family would think when they found out, I got found out, and it was bumper bowling for a year with concerned people who I didn't want to let down. If I had been less fortunate any step along the way (including active in my drinking when I didn't wreck my car or lose my job or otherwise end up asking for help when I wasn't in a position to receive it) it would have been a tougher road back. Tougher but still possible, and falling down a few times along the way is part of the deal for most people who recover.

We're officially expecting a baby girl in May. I have a little bit of... guilt, like maybe we I should've gotten snipped and we should have just adopted. Certainly she'll have a higher chance than others of experiencing some of the problems I've had to deal with, but I guess that die is cast and I'll be there for it. Apart from that feeling though... fucking thrilled.

Congrats, man.

I passed on children in part for the reason you cited and also partly because I destroyed my significant relationship with my drinking and didn't really get back in the saddle for a while there.  I don't dwell on it either way, but I don't think there's a right answer and I have tinges of regret from time to time.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

On 11/12/2020 at 12:52 AM, ztejas said:

Lot of similarities over here. Thanks for sharing. 

Main difference coming to mind is that I relapsed very soon after 50 days in rehab and very nearly fucked up me and my mom's relationship to where I wasn't welcome to stay with her- although she ended up pretty quick to forgive. (Oh, and then also, I'm still in early recovery so in no way do I qualify as a one chip wonder)

We're probably just going in fucking circles on this thread, but that's what we do in AA. I know I have some LONG posts going into more detail on a lot of this somewhere around here. Haven't scrolled back through and reread the one in particular I'm thinking of - kind of fine with not rereading it.

Well, going in circles is the surly way, first off.

Second, since we're kind of doing this as a public service, a lot of stuff bears repeating for those unwilling to slog through 60 pages.  And if they're willing to slog through 60 pages, the importance of the repeated stuff will become apparent.

[Clintonaldo 2576]

I hurt for my younger cousin tonight. We are a close family and even though most of us are in Tennessee and she is in Dallas I just feel the pain. I am 39 and she is 36 and  our fathers are both in the same place now but I feel worse for her because I feel like a girl needs her father. 
 

He was a smart man and I haven’t seen him in over 30 years. The last time I saw him he was drunk as hell at our river house and at 9 years old I basically challenged him to a fight. He was a loud mouth know it all and I loved it. 
 

I remember in the 90’s he was constantly on the phone when they came to see us and he was dealing with Arabs wanting to move to Dallas. I remember my parents had some friends out in Dallas and he and my aunt (actual blood) looked down on the area and said very middle class. My other uncle (Tennessee) went to see them and they had a cement pond and tennis courts and the works at their house. 

Anyways , about mid 90’s his business turned to shit and about that time his marriage did too. Come to find out, he and my aunt were raging alcoholics and my aunt loaded up the van one night in 05 and drove her kids here to Tennessee after he pulled a gun on her in an argument. Later on we learned both cousins went to bed every night in fear and one is now in a home due to meth issues related to her childhood and she will never recover. 
 

This is first draft of story and I know it sucks but I just wanted to say I am proud of all of you and proud of my cousin. This is a hell of an obituary and addiction is nothing to fuck with. Her mother met someone in AA and they are happily married 9 years later.  One day at a time  

 

http://leadersarealwaysreaders.blogspot.com/2020/11/a-legacy-story.html?m=1

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

 

[TwiceHorn 31534]

On 11/14/2020 at 9:43 PM, Clintonaldo said:

I hurt for my younger cousin tonight. We are a close family and even though most of us are in Tennessee and she is in Dallas I just feel the pain. I am 39 and she is 36 and  our fathers are both in the same place now but I feel worse for her because I feel like a girl needs her father. 
 

He was a smart man and I haven’t seen him in over 30 years. The last time I saw him he was drunk as hell at our river house and at 9 years old I basically challenged him to a fight. He was a loud mouth know it all and I loved it. 
 

I remember in the 90’s he was constantly on the phone when they came to see us and he was dealing with Arabs wanting to move to Dallas. I remember my parents had some friends out in Dallas and he and my aunt (actual blood) looked down on the area and said very middle class. My other uncle (Tennessee) went to see them and they had a cement pond and tennis courts and the works at their house. 

Anyways , about mid 90’s his business turned to shit and about that time his marriage did too. Come to find out, he and my aunt were raging alcoholics and my aunt loaded up the van one night in 05 and drove her kids here to Tennessee after he pulled a gun on her in an argument. Later on we learned both cousins went to bed every night in fear and one is now in a home due to meth issues related to her childhood and she will never recover. 
 

This is first draft of story and I know it sucks but I just wanted to say I am proud of all of you and proud of my cousin. This is a hell of an obituary and addiction is nothing to fuck with. Her mother met someone in AA and they are happily married 9 years later.  One day at a time  

 

http://leadersarealwaysreaders.blogspot.com/2020/11/a-legacy-story.html?m=1

 

Powerful stuff.  I think that exemplifies loving from a distance.

[InkaUtexas 26093]

I think I need to join this club. For the first three years my divorce I did real well to stay away from booze, etc. Never had more than a bottle of wine or two in the house. When COVID started my house was deemed the safe place. I had just started going out with a girl and we decided it would be easier to lock down together. First thing she did was bring over a full bar. So life went from a glass of wine at night to vodka tonics in the afternoon. 

I saw a slipping friendship with my daughter but blamed it on me being in a new relationship and not my actions. I was wrong to see it like that. I now realize. Not saying the relationship was great and going to last for ever, but the way it ended has me thinking pretty deep about this. 

I was always a wine and beer drinker, maybe an occasional scotch. But this fell away real quick and over the past 8 months if became a problem. The relationship ended on Friday so I think the right thing to do is look back at to why the fights became so common, and always after drinking. 

Anyways, just posting to get this out there and not something I am just holding on internally. Thanks for reading and sharing your stories. 

[BearSchlong 8111]

Thanks for sharing.  For those of us who self-identify and hang out at those darn meetings, we dabble in cliched acronyms.

Relationship - Real Exciting Love Affair Turns InTo Nightmare, Sobriety Hangs In Peril.

 

[hullabelew 3724]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think I need to join this club. For the first three years my divorce I did real well to stay away from booze, etc. Never had more than a bottle of wine or two in the house. When COVID started my house was deemed the safe place. I had just started going out with a girl and we decided it would be easier to lock down together. First thing she did was bring over a full bar. So life went from a glass of wine at night to vodka tonics in the afternoon. 

I saw a slipping friendship with my daughter but blamed it on me being in a new relationship and not my actions. I was wrong to see it like that. I now realize. Not saying the relationship was great and going to last for ever, but the way it ended has me thinking pretty deep about this. 

I was always a wine and beer drinker, maybe an occasional scotch. But this fell away real quick and over the past 8 months if became a problem. The relationship ended on Friday so I think the right thing to do is look back at to why the fights became so common, and always after drinking. 

Anyways, just posting to get this out there and not something I am just holding on internally. Thanks for reading and sharing your stories. 

Yep.  When I moved from beer to vodka as my drink at the bar during day drinking sessions, I really started spiraling down hill.  I never had an anger problem until then.  I still never started anything, but the slightest little thing would set me off.  

[ztejas 43533]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think I need to join this club. For the first three years my divorce I did real well to stay away from booze, etc. Never had more than a bottle of wine or two in the house. When COVID started my house was deemed the safe place. I had just started going out with a girl and we decided it would be easier to lock down together. First thing she did was bring over a full bar. So life went from a glass of wine at night to vodka tonics in the afternoon. 

I saw a slipping friendship with my daughter but blamed it on me being in a new relationship and not my actions. I was wrong to see it like that. I now realize. Not saying the relationship was great and going to last for ever, but the way it ended has me thinking pretty deep about this. 

I was always a wine and beer drinker, maybe an occasional scotch. But this fell away real quick and over the past 8 months if became a problem. The relationship ended on Friday so I think the right thing to do is look back at to why the fights became so common, and always after drinking. 

Anyways, just posting to get this out there and not something I am just holding on internally. Thanks for reading and sharing your stories. 

See if you can quit on your own. i.e. if you realize that alcohol has become a problem - see how many days you can go before picking up again.

Not looking down on your condition at all or gatekeeping or anything - we try not to do that - but it's possible your recent issues could be circumstantial. Monkey spends more time at home, monkey gets more booze for the house, monkey drinks more and so on.

Another good thing to do would be to get a big book or little red book or even pull it up online (https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous). Read through page 59 including the forewords (it's a quick read). See how much of it you identify with. If you sit back and think "fuck, that sounds just like me" maybe hit a couple meetings. 

You seem to have a good deal of self awareness which will help you with whatever you attempt in this arena. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by ztejas

[InkaUtexas 26093]

1 minute ago, hullabelew said:

Yep.  When I moved from beer to vodka as my drink at the bar during day drinking sessions, I really started spiraling down hill.  I never had an anger problem until then.  I still never started anything, but the slightest little thing would set me off.  

Exactly what happened with me. I would be fine until something was said. For instance, something from work was bothering me, and I would be asked why I was in a bad mood. Boom, I would get in a real bad mood. Our fights became  hurtful, with no way to solve them. What sucks is I got her a job on a team I run so I need to solve things to at least a friendship for the betterment of the group. 

I think of part of what happened was there was a a lot of resentment on my side and the drinking brought it out more and more. 

[InkaUtexas 26093]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

See if you can quit on your own. i.e. if you realize that alcohol has become a problem - see how many days you can go before picking up again.

Not looking down on your condition at all or gatekeeping or anything - we try not to do that - but it's possible your recent issues could be circumstantial. Monkey spends more time at home, monkey gets more booze for the house, monkey drinks more and so on.

Another good thing to do would be to get a big book or little red book or even pull it up online. Read through page 59 including the forewords (it's a quick read). See how much of it you identify with. If you sit back and think "fuck, that sounds just like me" maybe hit a couple meetings. 

You seem to have a good deal of self awareness which will help you with whatever you attempt in this arena. 

Thanks @ztejas

And yeah, that is my plan. Problem is my entire (safe) social network where I live focuses on drinking. taking the day off today to get my mountain bike back to where it needs to be. Exercise is going to be the key I think as the community locks back down. 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

@InkaUtexas, I’m happy for you and you’re increased self-reflection. How hot was she? Jk.

 

Like Z said, I would just try not drinking for a considerable period of time. Set a goal for like three or six months. If you find that you are not able to stick to your goals, and that the situation deteriorates again...well then you might be one of us. We hope you are not, but either way, we do wish you personal development and a spiritual walk.
 

Feel free to check out a meeting. If you are shy, one of us will go with you.

[InkaUtexas 26093]

1 minute ago, JohnnyRage said:

@InkaUtexas, I’m happy for you and you’re increased self-reflection. How hot was she? Jk.

 

Like Z said, I would just try not drinking for a considerable period of time. Set a goal for like three or six months. If you find that you are not able to stick to your goals, and that the situation deteriorates again...well then you might be one of us. We hope you are not, but either way, we do wish you personal development and a spiritual walk.
 

Feel free to check out a meeting. If you are shy, one of us will go with you.

Thanks man, glad this group is here. Never felt like this before so I think a meeting if I cannot do it on my own will be a no brainer. I am not scared to call for help. I have another young friend who reached out by chance yesterday. She does not drink and is great to talk to. Will be a nice change I think. 

Already asked the ex to come and get the booze she left here. 

And pretty damn hot, a minx in bed, and 20 years younger. Was a good run, and I think mature enough to not fuck up the project. 

[ztejas 43533]

8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Problem is my entire (safe) social network where I live focuses on drinking

Yep. And it sucks and it's hard. But it's not an excuse to ruin your life over drinking. 

I will tell you with confidence that being honest about it will produce better results than you think. Even something innocuous like telling your friends, "I'm going to take a break and focus on some other things." Some of them will support you. Some of them will probably be jackasses about it and not understand and call you a pussy. Some of them will reveal to you that they have or are struggled/ing with similar things - or have a family member that does. I don't know your friend group, but I virtually guarantee that you have at least one in each of those camps.

Maybe as some anecdotal encouragement, I've been driving Uber/Lyft a lot lately and sobriety comes up pretty frequently. When I tell people I've been clean 5 months now (and the majority of the past year) the responses are almost always "congrats"/"wow, that's really hard. I'm impressed"/"good for you"/"best of luck"/"my x is an alcoholic and has been clean x years and I've always respected x". Without fail. I can only think of one jackass who was drunk and didn't really understand it and kept joking about smoking weed and doing shrooms in my car and that he'd take a shot for me at the bar. One guy.

[Reagan1k 3024]

@InkaUtexas      Glad you stopped by.  When I talk to people about their drinking, its very important that we (that person and I) differentiate between heavy drinking, problem drinking, frequent drinking and alcoholic drinking.

The "normal" drinker (even if they have been going at it hard for some period of time) can moderate or stop all together when given sufficient reason, but here is where the rubber meets the road.....they can do so and maintain their sanity and happiness.  

Those of us that are real deal alcoholics may be able to moderate or stop, but we are literally and figuratively white knuckling the process and feel like our skin is peeling off.  Eventually the fingernails against the chalkboard of life becomes unbearable and we drink again.  Even moderation is painful, because we have an allergy that demands another drink once we take even one.  Denying ourselves additional drinks after the moderation threshold is met is painful.

That's what you'll find described in more detail among the pages of the Big Book, along with how we recover from what seems like a hopeless state.

Hopefully you can stop or moderate as you see fit and not be in pain while doing so.  If not, pull up a chair and take a load off.  We've got a good deal going here as well. 

[InkaUtexas 26093]

14 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

@InkaUtexas      Glad you stopped by.  When I talk to people about their drinking, its very important that we (that person and I) differentiate between heavy drinking, problem drinking, frequent drinking and alcoholic drinking.

The "normal" drinker (even if they have been going at it hard for some period of time) can moderate or stop all together when given sufficient reason, but here is where the rubber meets the road.....they can do so and maintain their sanity and happiness.  

Those of us that are real deal alcoholics may be able to moderate or stop, but we are literally and figuratively white knuckling the process and feel like our skin is peeling off.  Eventually the fingernails against the chalkboard of life becomes unbearable and we drink again.  Even moderation is painful, because we have an allergy that demands another drink once we take even one.  Denying ourselves additional drinks after the moderation threshold is met is painful.

That's what you'll find described in more detail among the pages of the Big Book, along with how we recover from what seems like a hopeless state.

Hopefully you can stop or moderate as you see fit and not be in pain while doing so.  If not, pull up a chair and take a load off.  We've got a good deal going here as well. 

Thank you Sir, and I think it won't be a major issue, but one I will watch. Going to go clean for 3 months. I never was a big drinker until the past 18 months with the last year being pretty substantial. Yeah, I would wake up and want a cold shiner vs. taking my bike out. I laid it off to stress (work has sucked this year) and living with the friend. 

I did find myself in that boat. We had killed the 12 pack of shiner or heading into the second bottle of wine and then were onto shots. That was not my style and I fell into it in a bad way. The fights were what got me and she did enjoy a good argument. During the day we were a great team. After 2 shots of scotch, look out. 

I appreciate this group being here. Hell, I know how much the divorce thread helped me during and after that wonderful event. I will keep monitoring it and appreciate all advice. The other step I took today was reach out to my old therapist. I will still stop drinking, but I figured if there are underlying issues than better deal with them as well. 

Have a great evening.  

 

And wanted to add, see mine more as frequent drinking, but it was going to heavy drinking. And something else, I hated how I felt physically in the mornings. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by InkaUtexas