I'm An Alcoholic

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Whether we actually ever believed we were powerless over alcohol, we were damn good at trying to wrestle that power back and failing.  Along with every other power we thought we had. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Dewey 3286]

I heard several times in treatment to not forget step one, these were reminders from a couple guys who came back in. It's always a good remind to look back and remember, at least for me, how powerless I became. When I did try to assert my power over alcohol, I ended up in a hospital.

The first time I admitted I was powerless, I did so because I was in rehab and felt I had no choice, but as time has gone on and my memory from the really bad times still shines, i know for certain i was powerless.

I needed help and got help, thank God.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

8 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Revisit step 1. I think a lot of people look past it to step 2. Which is a shame because it’s a good step.

 

Editing because that seems a little flippant. I think for me, I fought step 1 for 12 years and had lost completely by the first time I read it. So, it was quick and easy, but I hear a ton of stuff from people who don’t seem convinced that they are powerless over alcohol and I don’t think it gets talked about as much as it should.

Interesting and good point. I had the opposite experience. I was pretty sure I was an alcoholic from my 20s, but I said "sure, that's me, I accept" re: the first step so quickly that I didn't give it the proper consideration. Step 1 doesn't really mean "I gotta stop drinking". Or, it doesn't just mean that. To me, that's all I got out of it for a long time.

You have to really accept what "my life is unmanageable" means. It doesn't mean "I'm not managing my life very well right now!" or "I got a lotta problems!" or "I gotta stop drinking to get things back under my control" or "if I weren't such a worthless piece of shit, I could manage my life, but I am so I can't". It means the life that I have lived until now is completely fucking unmanageable by a human being, any human being. It's not about how strong I should be, or how many different decisions I should have made in 2004, or poor poor pitiful me they're always picking on me. It is an explicit admission that someone a lot more powerful than me is going to have to drive how I react to life, because whatever I have done up to now has not worked and won't magically start working if I lean into it more or try harder or drink more heavily.

The latter half of Step 1 leads directly into Step 2. It's meant to. If you don't read it that way, you're not getting it. I wasn't. I thought it meant that I had made a big mess to clean up and once I had seized control of my life and fixed everything via AA, it would be Achievement Unlocked and I'd move on to the next stage.

[Dewey 3286]

Yes, my entire life was unmanageable, it wasnt just my drinking that I had a problem with. I could not control my drinking or my life.

[Celery Man 20973]

^^ agree. 

There's a chasm between "admitting you have a problem" (which =/= the first step) and "admitting you are powerless".  If you are powerless, and you recognize the inevitable end result of the problem, and you've effectively internalized that, it should do a lot towards making your approach to the idea of a higher power less antagonistic (even if you are an ardent atheist or whatever, especially given how much of a non issue that needs to be if you aren't trying to be mad about it).

 

But more to the recent point, if you have nagging thoughts that you'll show them, or you can fix it, or "this is just for a while until I get my shit together and then I'll be able to control it" - that is not consistent with understanding your powerlessness over alcohol.  The relapse scenario that scares me is one where something terrible happens and I become massively depressed or otherwise cease to care about myself.  Because that's the one where I might get an urge and rationalize my way towards crawling into a bottle to die.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

3 minutes ago, Dewey said:

Yes, my entire life was unmanageable, it wasnt just my drinking that I had a problem with. I could not control my drinking or my life.

Bingo. If someone flipped me off in traffic, it wasn't just that I would get justifiably annoyed or angry with them. It was that I would carry that annoyance to the grocery store and think "man HEB is full of assholes today". Then I'd go home and when my wife wasn't impressed with my description about how I was surrounded by assholes, well, what a bitch, why do I have to put up with this in my marriage when everyone else's marriage is probably better? Then I'd hop on work email and Jesus Christ I was surrounded by stupid assholes! Did they pay me enough to tolerate these questions? Let's get drunk and explore that question further.

That sound like a manageable life to anyone? Take alcohol out of the equation, you still have someone pretty ill-equipped to deal with life, sounds like to me.

[Kennythetiger 9398]

13 minutes ago, Dewey said:

Yes, my entire life was unmanageable, it wasnt just my drinking that I had a problem with. I could not control my drinking or my life.

Word.

[El Diablo 4232]

48 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

The relapse scenario that scares me is one where something terrible happens and I become massively depressed or otherwise cease to care about myself.  Because that's the one where I might get an urge and rationalize my way towards crawling into a bottle to die.

Hi there!  

This was me. 11 years sober, shit got sideways and I was not actively engaged in my own  life in a positive way and what harm could it do, boo-hoo, oops, 14 years later....

[BearSchlong 8099]

Interesting and good point. I had the opposite experience. I was pretty sure I was an alcoholic from my 20s, but I said "sure, that's me, I accept" re: the first step so quickly that I didn't give it the proper consideration. Step 1 doesn't really mean "I gotta stop drinking". Or, it doesn't just mean that. To me, that's all I got out of it for a long time.
You have to really accept what "my life is unmanageable" means. It doesn't mean "I'm not managing my life very well right now!" or "I got a lotta problems!" or "I gotta stop drinking to get things back under my control" or "if I weren't such a worthless piece of shit, I could manage my life, but I am so I can't". It means the life that I have lived until now is completely fucking unmanageable by a human being, any human being. It's not about how strong I should be, or how many different decisions I should have made in 2004, or poor poor pitiful me they're always picking on me. It is an explicit admission that someone a lot more powerful than me is going to have to drive how I react to life, because whatever I have done up to now has not worked and won't magically start working if I lean into it more or try harder or drink more heavily.
The latter half of Step 1 leads directly into Step 2. It's meant to. If you don't read it that way, you're not getting it. I wasn't. I thought it meant that I had made a big mess to clean up and once I had seized control of my life and fixed everything via AA, it would be Achievement Unlocked and I'd move on to the next stage.

This is one of the best descriptions I've ever read.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

On 5/21/2019 at 10:13 AM, El Diablo said:

Hi there!  

This was me. 11 years sober, shit got sideways and I was not actively engaged in my own  life in a positive way and what harm could it do, boo-hoo, oops, 14 years later....

In the program, you practically never hear anyone with long-term sobriety say "I'll never drink again", and that is the right attitude to take towards sobriety. As unlikely as it feels to ever imagine taking a drink again, I can't predict what my life will be like on June 1st of this year, or ten years from now, or the last June 1st I ever live to see.

But, I do feel pretty comfortable saying-- and Celery's post reminds me of it, as does yours-- I do have a pretty strong grasp on WHY I would or how I COULD ever drink again. I'm one of those who "drank all the fun out of my whiskey", which means more than it sounds like. It's not just a cliche; I stopped drinking because "it's fun!" or because "it makes me feel good!" a long time before I stopped drinking entirely. It was reduced to pain relief at the end-- blotting out and numbing. So I don't have any illusions about having fun or it feeling good, or controlling my drinking if I start again. I haven't felt any of those things in years.

The only illusion that I know I'm still vulnerable to is that it might start sounding like a way to escape what I'm feeling, if I don't particularly like what I'm feeling. Even though at the end, I could not escape by drinking, that was the thing I held onto the longest: the escape. At the end, no matter how drunk I got, I could not reach oblivion. There was no escape, no relief.

Remembering that is helpful, but it is not enough by itself. I have to stay spiritually fit, I have to stay in my program, in my hula hoop, in touch with my peeps, right-sized and right with God. 

Because if I were to stop caring before I picked up the drink, if I wanted to poison other people more than get well myself.... that's a scary thought. 

[El Diablo 4232]

27 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

In the program, you practically never hear anyone with long-term sobriety say "I'll never drink again", and that is the right attitude to take towards sobriety. As unlikely as it feels to ever imagine taking a drink again, I can't predict what my life will be like on June 1st of this year, or ten years from now, or the last June 1st I ever live to see.

But, I do feel pretty comfortable saying-- and Celery's post reminds me of it, as does yours-- I do have a pretty strong grasp on WHY I would or how I COULD ever drink again. I'm one of those who "drank all the fun out of my whiskey", which means more than it sounds like. It's not just a cliche; I stopped drinking because "it's fun!" or because "it makes me feel good!" a long time before I stopped drinking entirely. It was reduced to pain relief at the end-- blotting out and numbing. So I don't have any illusions about having fun or it feeling good, or controlling my drinking if I start again. I haven't felt any of those things in years.

The only illusion that I know I'm still vulnerable to is that it might start sounding like a way to escape what I'm feeling, if I don't particularly like what I'm feeling. Even though at the end, I could not escape by drinking, that was the thing I held onto the longest: the escape. At the end, no matter how drunk I got, I could not reach oblivion. There was no escape, no relief.

Remembering that is helpful, but it is not enough by itself. I have to stay spiritually fit, I have to stay in my program, in my hula hoop, in touch with my peeps, right-sized and right with God. 

Because if I were to stop caring before I picked up the drink, if I wanted to poison other people more than get well myself.... that's a scary thought. 

My experience was I got depressed blah blah...started drinking again. THEN..the depression cleared up. No, really, it did. And THEN I spent another 11 years drinking because I'm an alcoholic. I wasn't angry at anyone, or life, or God or for any one of a million other reasons. The anger/depression/whatever was gone. Frankly, I'd done a very thorough 4th step in 1990, what sent me off the rails in 2002 was not an accumulation of grudges or what have you. I was just desperate to stop feeling the way I was feeling and my memory of what the drink would do to me was faded and I tried it again. Merry-go-'round time.

[Reagan1k 3024]

17 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

This is one of the best descriptions I've ever read.
 

Unmanageable.   That's where the rubber meets the road in the program for me.  Yes, I am powerless over alcohol, but I had to begin drinking to discover that.

The second part of Step 1 describes me even before I ever thought of my 1st beer........Like age 5 - My life was and will always be unmanageable by me.

I was restless and discontent in kindergarten  for fucks sake.

At the top of my gratitude list is alcohol.....it probably kept me alive while I was searching for a peace I could not grasp and it sure as shit drove me to a program where I found what was really wrong.....my life is unmanageable by me and my best thinking.  If nothing had ever been fermented, I'd be screwed.  

All the belief that I am powerless over alcohol is for naught if I don't also believe that my life is unmanageable by me and that I need a higher power and a clear set of principles to work in my life.

It's a slippery slope and as soon as I start taking back the manageability part.....the delusion that I can control and enjoy my drinking is only a short step away.

[BearSchlong 8099]

Wife and I went to a restaurant overlooking Seattle waterfront at sunset last night. Romantic.

She took an hour to drink a martini, then after 20 minutes of discussion with the sommelier ordered a glass of local rose, then drank half of it.

The sommelier kept looking at me because I'm chuckling to myself, working that 1st step like I do everytime a similar scene occurs. "Oh none for me, I've had my lifetime ration."

We get up to leave and I told her I'm not going anywhere till she finished that wine. She snarls "you know I cant gulp wine!"

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

When I was in first grade, my school did one of those things where they gave us a crate of chocolate turtles to sell door to door. I walked to school unsupervised in those days, and the crate of chocolates never made it beyond my little fort in the front bushes. I pigged out on candy for days. I couldn't wait for the next time my school sent me home with a dozen boxes of chocolates. Then mysterious forces conspired beyond my control -- the bill came due, and one of the parental authorities asked about what had happened to all the chocolates I was supposed to have sold, but had instead hid in the bushes and devoured on the sly. Just like forty years later my wife would wonder why I never had any money because I was hiding huge amounts of vodka and box wine and guzzling it on the sly. The addict boy becomes the addict man.

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

13 hours ago, Reagan1k said:

Unmanageable.   That's where the rubber meets the road in the program for me.  Yes, I am powerless over alcohol, but I had to begin drinking to discover that.

The second part of Step 1 describes me even before I ever thought of my 1st beer........Like age 5 - My life was and will always be unmanageable by me.

I was restless and discontent in kindergarten  for fucks sake.

At the top of my gratitude list is alcohol.....it probably kept me alive while I was searching for a peace I could not grasp and it sure as shit drove me to a program where I found what was really wrong.....my life is unmanageable by me and my best thinking.  If nothing had ever been fermented, I'd be screwed.  

All the belief that I am powerless over alcohol is for naught if I don't also believe that my life is unmanageable by me and that I need a higher power and a clear set of principles to work in my life.

It's a slippery slope and as soon as I start taking back the manageability part.....the delusion that I can control and enjoy my drinking is only a short step away.

This post and your other post interest me, because I'm at a point now where my mind is starting to want go to the deep reason I'm an alcoholic. The kind of where, why and how thing. Starting to think back to how I was as a kid and tendencies toward certain behavior. I'm not sure it's something I can try to figure out on my own or if I should set up an appointment with a therapist type and really explore and dive into it. 

I think everyone could find some good in talking to a professional and I've thought for a long time that I should. Maybe it's just all the new clarity and curiousity that has come from sobriety and really wanting to get to know myself. Sounds dumb when I type it out, but it's there. That's why you talking about life managebility from the start piqued my interest because it's what I'm mulling over lately. Who knows. Next week I'll probably wanna take up water aerobics or some shit. 

[Reagan1k 3024]

Take advantage of therapy when appropriate, for sure.  I would advise however to avoid trying to use that as a sole source of recovery.

I get where you are coming from and I was terribly introspective ...looking for why....both when I drank and early in sobriety.

However, my experience is that my life improved when I quit worrying so much about how the mule got in the ditch and started doing work to get it out.

That's not to say you don't look back and identify those feelings.....that's productive.  But to dwell on the why I had them wasn't terribly productive for me.

In the inventory process we "uncover, discover, and discard" those old ideas.  That's it.  We don't have to rewrite history or solve the puzzle.

Just my two cents.

[Kennythetiger 9398]

10 hours ago, BBQ2Bayou said:

Who knows. Next week I'll probably wanna take up water aerobics or some shit. 

Hopefully not with the old ladies with the flappy arms.

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

1 hour ago, Kennythetiger said:

Hopefully not with the old ladies with the flappy arms.

Ya know, it has been a while.....

[Dertyberd 394]

BBQ2.  My personal experience is it can be wonderful and horrible all at the same time.   I was almost two years sober and doing quite well.  I went in to therapy to help a family member deal with their severe PTSD .  That part was fantastic and I couldn't have done it without being sober.  It opened up a lot of things that helped mend the relationship between my father and I, while also giving him the ability to breathe in his own life.  Poor guy had a shit upbringing and managed to keep us safe and relatively sane throughout my life. I also learned a lot about my own traumas and I was offered help to work on myself.  I agreed, and off I went pealing back the onion.  This part was the wonderful part as I had never faced down my shit.  I dug deep and made some huge strides emotionally and within my relationships.  I finally understood why I was so insecure/fearful/anxious etc.  All of these things that I had been given relief from because of working the steps and getting sober, were now something I could get over, get past forever.  I slowly stopped going to meetings because I was working on myself. 

Thats when the thoughts came.  If I can beat this, I can beat the booze.  I've climbed a mountain of fear, shame, and guilt and kicked it's ass.  There was also a nudge from the psychologist that maybe it was just the PTSD that caused my drinking.  Maybe if I found new community outside of AA, I could live my life normally again.  I asked a Dr. friend his opinion, and he concurred that there are plenty of ways to drink normally.  So, I did drink a little and nothing happened at first.  Nothing fell apart.  I was working the therapy and I was moving on with my life.  Then came a series of small outside events that brought me down a bit, and bam! Just like that it was time to stop the feelings and the wave of depression and anxiety came back like never before.  I didn't wait very long and told my therapist I was having suicidal thoughts and I couldn't sleep again.  Just like that she sent me to a psychiatrist and here came the pills.  Even though I told the new lady I was not sober, I got a regime of anti anxiety/anti depressants/non narcotic sleep aid.  I don't know if anyone has ever drank on that cocktail before, but it will send you to the fucking funny farm.  I was full on delusional and worse than ever before.  I've never experienced darkness like that, even the time I spent nine months trying to drink myself to death.  I was fucked, and by a series of small miracles and getting my ass kicked again I walked back into AA and I've never been better.  No pills, no therapy, no bullshit.  

I am sure that the PTSD of my childhood helped spur my drinking.  I am sure that the strange home life that lacked normal relationships allowed for the booze to be more effective.  I am positive that therapy worked for my father to heal his wounds.  I had made so much progress and gained so much self knowledge that I forgot how I was able to do it in the first place.  I had given up alcohol and surrendered my will to a higher power.  Therapy allowed me to take back control of my life and it was a fucking nightmare.   There is nothing wrong with therapy and pills if they are prescribed by folks who truly understand addiction.  I am not militant on that shit, find what works for you.  I just know that I opened myself up to being "normal" again and it almost killed me.  I am an alcoholic, I can't drink, and I pray that my higher power will grant me another day of peace and happiness.  God speed and do what you need to do, just don't change whatever it is you are dong that got you out of hell and into the good place.  Much love.  

[TwiceHorn 31509]

11 hours ago, Reagan1k said:

Take advantage of therapy when appropriate, for sure.  I would advise however to avoid trying to use that as a sole source of recovery.

I get where you are coming from and I was terribly introspective ...looking for why....both when I drank and early in sobriety.

However, my experience is that my life improved when I quit worrying so much about how the mule got in the ditch and started doing work to get it out.

That's not to say you don't look back and identify those feelings.....that's productive.  But to dwell on the why I had them wasn't terribly productive for me.

In the inventory process we "uncover, discover, and discard" those old ideas.  That's it.  We don't have to rewrite history or solve the puzzle.

Just my two cents.

Absolutely.  I am curious by nature, but I found that curiosity to be an impediment to sobriety.  Getting to the whys often leads to yet another attempt to control things so I have to look at my motives, particularly once I start finding answers and deciding what to do with them.  Like a lot of things in alcoholics and probably humans generally, there are a lot of paradoxes:  my curiosity is one of my greater strengths, but also a weakness.

I wanted to understand recovery, both as a matter of curiosity and as a matter of trying to find a softer, easier way.  With the full benefit of hindsight, I can safely indulge my curiosity and what I have found is that AA is a really amazing program of psychology and action that requires no understanding of psychology.  And overthinking and overanalyzing it just isn't a plus.

Edited May 24, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

6 minutes ago, Dertyberd said:

BBQ2.  My personal experience is it can be wonderful and horrible all at the same time.   I was almost two years sober and doing quite well.  I went in to therapy to help a family member deal with their severe PTSD .  That part was fantastic and I couldn't have done it without being sober.  It opened up a lot of things that helped mend the relationship between my father and I, while also giving him the ability to breathe in his own life.  Poor guy had a shit upbringing and managed to keep us safe and relatively sane throughout my life. I also learned a lot about my own traumas and I was offered help to work on myself.  I agreed, and off I went pealing back the onion.  This part was the wonderful part as I had never faced down my shit.  I dug deep and made some huge strides emotionally and within my relationships.  I finally understood why I was so insecure/fearful/anxious etc.  All of these things that I had been given relief from because of working the steps and getting sober, were now something I could get over, get past forever.  I slowly stopped going to meetings because I was working on myself. 

Thats when the thoughts came.  If I can beat this, I can beat the booze.  I've climbed a mountain of fear, shame, and guilt and kicked it's ass.  There was also a nudge from the psychologist that maybe it was just the PTSD that caused my drinking.  Maybe if I found new community outside of AA, I could live my life normally again.  I asked a Dr. friend his opinion, and he concurred that there are plenty of ways to drink normally.  So, I did drink a little and nothing happened at first.  Nothing fell apart.  I was working the therapy and I was moving on with my life.  Then came a series of small outside events that brought me down a bit, and bam! Just like that it was time to stop the feelings and the wave of depression and anxiety came back like never before.  I didn't wait very long and told my therapist I was having suicidal thoughts and I couldn't sleep again.  Just like that she sent me to a psychiatrist and here came the pills.  Even though I told the new lady I was not sober, I got a regime of anti anxiety/anti depressants/non narcotic sleep aid.  I don't know if anyone has ever drank on that cocktail before, but it will send you to the fucking funny farm.  I was full on delusional and worse than ever before.  I've never experienced darkness like that, even the time I spent nine months trying to drink myself to death.  I was fucked, and by a series of small miracles and getting my ass kicked again I walked back into AA and I've never been better.  No pills, no therapy, no bullshit.  

I am sure that the PTSD of my childhood helped spur my drinking.  I am sure that the strange home life that lacked normal relationships allowed for the booze to be more effective.  I am positive that therapy worked for my father to heal his wounds.  I had made so much progress and gained so much self knowledge that I forgot how I was able to do it in the first place.  I had given up alcohol and surrendered my will to a higher power.  Therapy allowed me to take back control of my life and it was a fucking nightmare.   There is nothing wrong with therapy and pills if they are prescribed by folks who truly understand addiction.  I am not militant on that shit, find what works for you.  I just know that I opened myself up to being "normal" again and it almost killed me.  I am an alcoholic, I can't drink, and I pray that my higher power will grant me another day of peace and happiness.  God speed and do what you need to do, just don't change whatever it is you are dong that got you out of hell and into the good place.  Much love.  

So you were in a way reinforced by professionals that you could drink normally even though you knew you were an alcoholic, or you were still on that proverbial fence that we've all experienced of "I'm sure I can just have a few, let me try that just one more time"? 

I have considered that digging too deep might not be completely beneficial and could backfire like it did with you, but I'm just in that place right now. I might be different than you were at that time, in that I am certain that I can't drink normally ever again. I know exactly what will happen if I attempt that. It took me, and you, and probably every one of us with this addiction many tries to come to that realization, but I am there, which is good. 

I also, again probably like most of us, have a tendency to go all in on things, so maybe I need to pump the brakes for a bit and let the happiness come to me, rather than seeking it out. Because I am very happy right now without the booze. Happier than I have been since I can remember.  So something is clicking and going right and I do know and appreciate what you and Reagan say about treading carefully on that. I'm also just a year into this, so I need to temper the desire to get back all the wasted years right away. 

Those are gone. Can't do anything but move ahead and cherish the time that's left and not worry about the time that's gone. 

[TwiceHorn 31509]

What I take from DertyBerd's story is not that therapy was so wrenching that it caused a relapse.  Quite the opposite, actually.  It was personally empowering so that Derty felt like he could resume control of his drinking, among other things.  Correct me if I am wrong, Derty.

 

It also kind of reflects a misunderstanding of the fundamental nature of addiction by both the therapist and medical community.  Yes, I think psychological issues can drive one to self-medication and overindulgence.  But only if you have that peculiar allergy of the body and obsession of the mind will that turn into alcoholism/addiction.  Removing the psychological problem will not fix the addiction past that point of no return, but a lot of professionals still think that way because, like most of us, they can't wrap their head around what's really going on and are possessed of the "arrogance" of their profession.

For those of us who have experienced recovery, I fully endorse therapy and medication as an adjunct to your existing program of recovery.  Letting it become a substitute is hazardous.  By the same token, while AA is a marvelous psychological program, there are brain chemistry and specific psychological issues that it is not well equipped to deal with, so it is not a substitute for those therapies, either.

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Dertyberd 394]

I thought I was very solid going in, but yes I also had a desire to be normal again.  I knew I couldn't drink, but damn if I wasn't getting better.  The experience I had with the professionals is that they all believed that you can beat what is wrong with you.  The normal way of life that they all live, is that no matter what the circumstances, they have always been able to drink normally after going through depression, PTSD etc.   There is some kind of medical cure for everything.  Nothing wrong for them to think that, just I don't think they understood that I have to do things differently to stay sober.  God bless them for trying, I hold nothing against them and am grateful for their efforts.  Especially the pill lady, I learned a very valuable lesson from her that I try and pass on so others don't have to experience it.  Basically, if you drink like I do, never under any circumstance take shit that messes with your brain chemistry.  It's hell on earth.  

[El Diablo 4232]

1 hour ago, Kennythetiger said:

Hopefully not with the old ladies with the flappy arms.

Kellen Winslow Jr says "come on in, the water's fine!".

[Dertyberd 394]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What I take from DertyBerd's story is not that therapy was so wrenching that it caused a relapse.  Quite the opposite, actually.  It was personally empowering so that Derty felt like he could resume control of his drinking, among other things.  Correct me if I am wrong, Derty.

 

It also kind of reflects a misunderstanding of the fundamental nature of addiction by both the therapist and medical community.  Yes, I think psychological issues can drive one to self-medication and overindulgence.  But only if you have that peculiar allergy of the body and obsession of the mind will that turn into alcoholism/addiction.  Removing the psychological problem will not fix the addiction past that point of no return, but a lot of professionals still think that way because, like most of us, they can't wrap their head around what's really going on and are possessed of the "arrogance" of their profession.

 

Spot on.  

You're much more eloquent than I.  I tend to get emotional and personal when talking about this stuff.  I can only do this stuff from the heart and the gut.  

Edited May 24, 2019 by Dertyberd

[TwiceHorn 31509]

21 minutes ago, Dertyberd said:

Spot on.  

You're much more eloquent than I.  I tend to get emotional and personal when talking about this stuff.  I can only do this stuff from the heart and the gut.  

It's cool.  I got distance, you don't.  The "blending" of therapy and AA is a good topic.  In my opnion, they're very complementary, but it can be dangerous to treat them as substitutes for one another.

 

The danger for us is the "I got this" attitude.  All kinds of crap can bring that back or "on."  It's not a commentary on what brings it on, it's more a commentary on ourselves.

Edited May 24, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Charles DeMar 221]

Really, really good back and forth on here the last few days.  Thank you all for open, honest shares.

 

CDM

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

I believe that IF I had addressed my childhood traumas before I learned to drink like an alcoholic, then I might be able to drink moderately today. 

HOWEVER, I did not. And over the last 30 years I hardwired my brain into hardcore alcoholism. If I had healed my issues 20, 25 years ago, maybe it would have been possible to be a normie, maybe even spin one off every now and then with few if any consequences.

That ship has not just sailed, but also hit an iceberg and sunk. I KNOW I cannot drink moderately, because I just don't have any interest in it. It always bottles my mind when I hear people say "If only I could have a glass of wine with dinner." Fuck that shit. I know if I picked up again it would be a handle a day within a few weeks. 

So...I drink just a little bit less than a normie. Meaning not at all. The only alternative for me is to drink like a Russian. 

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

1 hour ago, Dertyberd said:

Spot on.  

You're much more eloquent than I.  I tend to get emotional and personal when talking about this stuff.  I can only do this stuff from the heart and the gut.  

Yeah this. Basically what I was trying to say. That's what I took it as, as well. Leave it to the attorney's who get paid by the word. I keed, I keed

[TwiceHorn 31509]

8 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I believe that IF I had addressed my childhood traumas before I learned to drink like an alcoholic, then I might be able to drink moderately today. 

HOWEVER, I did not. And over the last 30 years I hardwired my brain into hardcore alcoholism. If I had healed my issues 20, 25 years ago, maybe it would have been possible to be a normie, maybe even spin one off every now and then with few if any consequences.

That ship has not just sailed, but also hit an iceberg and sunk. I KNOW I cannot drink moderately, because I just don't have any interest in it. It always bottles my mind when I hear people say "If only I could have a glass of wine with dinner." Fuck that shit. I know if I picked up again it would be a handle a day within a few weeks. 

So...I drink just a little bit less than a normie. Meaning not at all. The only alternative for me is to drink like a Russian. 

I can't identify any particular traumas, just a bunch of little things and a sensitivity to them.  For me it was just the effect of water on a (soft) rock that led me to drinking.  I often wonder about the flip side of that coin, could I have avoided this by never drinking or drinking to excess.  If I had avoided the alcohol part, I suspect I would be an emotional/psychological basket case.

[BearSchlong 8099]

84 years later and nonalcoholics are still trying to treat alcoholics. Like they could ever understand what it's really like to have an alcoholic mind.

 

I'm being harsh, I know.

 

Progress for me was accepting that I'm gonna be this way forever, the whys are irrelevant, the hows are what saves my life every day.

 

I do give props to my shrink, and wellbutrin has helped me tremendously with depression.

 

The anxiety, fear, and resentment goes away with the steps.

 

 

 

 

[Reagan1k 3024]

11 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Absolutely.  I am curious by nature, but I found that curiosity to be an impediment to sobriety.  Getting to the whys often leads to yet another attempt to control things so I have to look at my motives, particularly once I start finding answers and deciding what to do with them.  Like a lot of things in alcoholics and probably humans generally, there are a lot of paradoxes:  my curiosity is one of my greater strengths, but also a weakness.

I wanted to understand recovery, both as a matter of curiosity and as a matter of trying to find a softer, easier way.  With the full benefit of hindsight, I can safely indulge my curiosity and what I have found is that AA is a really amazing program of psychology and action that requires no understanding of psychology.  And overthinking and overanalyzing it just isn't a plus.

^^^^^^This....and getting too deep into the why's can also lead to assignment of "blame" which leads to resentment if I'm not careful.

I don't have the luxury of creating any more resentments so the "why" isn't very productive once I've started down a spiritual path to recover.

[Reagan1k 3024]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

If I had avoided the alcohol part, I suspect I would be an emotional/psychological basket case.

B I N G O and bingo was his name'o

[Celery Man 20973]

Kind of a weird place to post this, but I watched "I Think You Should Leave" on Netflix this weekend.  Sketch comedy show from Tim Robinson, most of the sketches revolving around people wildly overreacting to embarrassment or other perceived slights.  Episodes seemed about 20 minutes a piece, and about half of the sketches seemed like slightly more comical versions of things you'd hear in AA rooms.

 

[BearSchlong 8099]

Hanging in Portland with my wife and sister and her family. Breweries, hard cider orchards, wineries, and bars. Of course I'm the designated driver while these exceedingly normal drinkers ooh and ah over seemingly endless flights of cider, beer and wine, and sake at dinner.

It's like being with martians or something.

So boring for an alcoholic of my type. Gonna be glad to get back to my home meeting.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

36 minutes ago, thestud said:

My alcoholic co-worker relapsed a few weeks ago and nobody knew. He thought he could just have a couple and be good. He was right, he was good for a week or so, then it turned into 3 or 4 and then finally the whole bottle. He called in sick the last two shifts. Come to find out he’s trying to detox on his own. Yesterday we had him admitted to psych ward at a local hospital. He was having audible and visual hallucinations, having conversations with people that weren’t there and at one point he thought he was back in Ramadi (USMC ‘03-‘09). I don’t really know what to do and right now he’s locked away so there’s not much we can do, but if y’all wouldn’t mind I’ll gladly take any advice on how to deal with this situation once they discharge him.

That's the way it tends to happen.

Assuming he got sober in a program, encourage him to get back in that program.  A big part of every relapser thinks they're a giant, irretrievable fuckup and the danger there is that they decide there's no point.  So avoid judging him that way or letting him think that way, to the extent you can.  Also try to avoid handling him with kid gloves.  Those are two ends of the spectrum of treating him like a special snowflake, which is, at root, a big part of his problem.  He's just an average, common or garden alcoholic doing what alkies do when they don't do what they're supposed to do.  Assuming he got some decent sobriety in AA or some type of program, encourage him to resume or start that.

Probably a good idea not to flaunt drinking around him, but don't make the teetotaling conspicuous.  Try to be as normal as possible around him and let him reintegrate into something resembling a normal life, without alcohol. 

If he continues to drink, there's no point in lecturing him, or giving him various ultimata.  Those should come from work, the law, family, whereever they naturally come from when someone starts fucking up because of their drinking.  Begin to distance.  Make it simply clear that continued drinking is unacceptable in the context of your friendship/acquaintanceship.  Remind him that he knows what to do to get and stay sober and he can do that and remain a close friend/acquaintance/coworker, or not.

Perhaps it goes without saying, but avoid enabling him by shielding him from the consequences of continued drinking.  A subtler aspect of this is isolating him from the slings and arrows of daily life, which enable him to exist both without alcohol and without making any changes.  Helping him to get back on his feet on a temporary basis is one thing, but it can go on too long and be taken too far (wives and parents are notorious for this).

I might guess that he's in need of treatment for PTSD.  It could be that managing his PTSD is the secret to his "alcoholism."  Or maybe not.  For now, best to treat them as separate things that he needs help with, so encourage him on both of those and encourage him to treat them as separate things.  Scroll up a few posts to see a discussion of "comorbid" psych disorders (Dewey on this and the preceding page).

Edited May 30, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Oops Dertyberd not Dewey.

[BearSchlong 8099]

@thestud when you say "we" i'm assuming you mean EAP/Insurance via the HR department, right?  Or are you HR?

Pretty much what twicehorn said. You are completely powerless over the matter.

As a friend, just treat him with dignity and love. This is way bigger than his job or any situation, his survival is at stake.  I'd just keep reminding him that there are people who would love to help him - both with the alcoholism and with the PTSD.  He's probably going to need support with both issues, separately.

I dive into conversation about what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now with alcoholics all the time, but when it comes to PTSD I got nothing.  Never had the experience.

Per facebook my last pigeon and taco bell girl moved to Brooklyn, NY the other day.  I've got a new prospect with whom I've been working.  Interestingly enough he's a mortician.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:35 AM, TwiceHorn said:

It's cool.  I got distance, you don't.  The "blending" of therapy and AA is a good topic.  In my opnion, they're very complementary, but it can be dangerous to treat them as substitutes for one another.

 

The danger for us is the "I got this" attitude.  All kinds of crap can bring that back or "on."  It's not a commentary on what brings it on, it's more a commentary on ourselves.

I must have missed a lot of this therapy discussion from the past couple of pages, and still have just skimmed.

But I've bee seeing a therapist for the past two years, in the beginning as much as twice a week. Thank goodness for good insurance. I feel comfortable now reducing that to once a month or less.

Seeing a therapist has very little to do with me drinking or not drinking. I think everyone should see a therapist from time to time. Drinking did have a large role in my initiating contact with my therapist. I have had wet periods and dry periods during those two years. I have been 99.8% (through omission) honest with my therapist. Any other way than being completely honest is a waste of time and money. There's nothing worse than going to see my therapist coming out of a horrible self-detox and having to declare, "I've done again."

We really don't delve into the past at all, maybe a little in the beginning. I have a small problem with that, but I've also spent my entire life time doing just that in my own brain ad nauseam. She also doesn't really diagnose me. She sure as fuck doesn't try to prescribe me anything, which I appreciate, maybe recommends a supplement or dietary change from time-to-time.

Mostly we discuss how things are going and what I plan on doing. It helps me to vocalize things and be accountable. The slow growth of change in my life does get to sounding old.

 

In my opinion AA is not group therapy. It should be about, "What it was like, 'What happened', and What it is like now." So many people treat a meeting as a place to vent or hear themselves sound seemingly wise. That indicates to me a bad personal program. It is a place of spiritual humility, action and service.

(I'm guilty there too)

[Reagan1k 3024]

On 5/27/2019 at 12:18 AM, BearSchlong said:

So boring for an alcoholic of my type. Gonna be glad to get back to my home meeting.

I love seeing evidence that normies are weird and freaks when it comes to alcohol. 

Saw an ad last week for a wine saver that creates a vacuum to preserve opened bottles.  That’s not new, but what floored me was that it has a date function on it so you can dial in the day of the month you sealed it and know how long ago you opened it before it gets too old. 

WTF-  if a bottle isn’t emptied the night it’s opened, I at least needed to finish it early the next AM to relubricate my brain.

That feature seems as worthless as tits on a boar. 

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

47 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

I love seeing evidence that normies are weird and freaks when it comes to alcohol. 

Saw an ad last week for a wine saver that creates a vacuum to preserve opened bottles.  That’s not new, but what floored me was that it has a date function on it so you can dial in the day of the month you sealed it and know how long ago you opened it before it gets too old. 

WTF-  if a bottle isn’t emptied the night it’s opened, I at least needed to finish it early the next AM to relubricate my brain.

That feature seems as worthless as tits on a boar. 

drinking me looks at that feature and laughs and says "hahaha fagets, that's why I buy screwtop wine!"

[BearSchlong 8099]

1 hour ago, thestud said:

@twicehorn@bearschlong

He went to a treatment facility last fall, came back after 22 days and relapsed on his second day home. Went back and stayed for 31 days and was doing good for several months as best we know. It was myself and a couple coworkers that got him help. We are a part of his support structure, we had multiple conference calls with him and his therapist before they sent him back home. By all accounts we had him set up for success. Then over the last 6-8 weeks he started drinking again. It culminated yesterday with the episode of hallucinations and whatnot I mentioned above. I don’t think he’s ever been treated for ptsd because he isn’t honest with anyone, ever. Even when he came home from his second stint in rehab that got actually him right for a few months, he would tell one of us one thing and then tell another the exact opposite.

Ouch. Good on you and your team for giving a damn, though.

Roger that about telling people different things - we have a saying that active alcoholics "cannot differentiate true from the false" - it's also called a "disease of perception" - in that as an active alcoholic I can't see the same reality that normal people see.  In addition to a rather tenuous grip on reality, we forget what we tell people, or just quit making an effort to "sell" what we're peddling as we can't muster any strength.

The hallucinations might be indicative of liver failure, or psychosis.  If he's in a psych hospital he's in the right place.  At this point all you can do is treat him like you would any sick friend struck with cancer, or heart problems, etc. 

What is his age?

Edited May 30, 2019 by BearSchlong

[BearSchlong 8099]

1 hour ago, Reagan1k said:

I love seeing evidence that normies are weird and freaks when it comes to alcohol. 

Saw an ad last week for a wine saver that creates a vacuum to preserve opened bottles.  That’s not new, but what floored me was that it has a date function on it so you can dial in the day of the month you sealed it and know how long ago you opened it before it gets too old. 

WTF-  if a bottle isn’t emptied the night it’s opened, I at least needed to finish it early the next AM to relubricate my brain.

That feature seems as worthless as tits on a boar. 

I gotta admit I'm probably not going to join the wife on any more wine tours.  I wasn't uncomfortable, but then again I'm just not interested in that scene.  I'll go find some obscure museum or something from now on.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

2 hours ago, thestud said:

@twicehorn@bearschlong

He went to a treatment facility last fall, came back after 22 days and relapsed on his second day home. Went back and stayed for 31 days and was doing good for several months as best we know. It was myself and a couple coworkers that got him help. We are a part of his support structure, we had multiple conference calls with him and his therapist before they sent him back home. By all accounts we had him set up for success. Then over the last 6-8 weeks he started drinking again. It culminated yesterday with the episode of hallucinations and whatnot I mentioned above. I don’t think he’s ever been treated for ptsd because he isn’t honest with anyone, ever. Even when he came home from his second stint in rehab that got actually him right for a few months, he would tell one of us one thing and then tell another the exact opposite.

Ok, that's no bueno.  He never really got going on AA.  All hope is not lost, though.  Not an atypical story of a pigeon on the road to recovery, although the rampant dishonesty is a fundamental problem.  Everyone new in sobriety has some level of problem with honesty, but it's usually more with white lies and people-pleasing type lies than big things.  Usually.

Bear did a better job on the emotional/humanity kind of things. Per usual I focused on kind of technical things.

Encourage him to go to AA.  Encourage him to get a sponsor.  If you are tempted to draw lines or set ultimatum/a, do it around this. Treatment and meetings are basically a stopgap to dry someone out and give them some tools (accountability, etc) to stay sober in the short term, but, as shown here, don't provide for long-term abstinence in most cases.  The real magic or work happens when one gets a sponsor and starts working the steps, which means doing things the sponsor tells you to do relating to the steps.  The steps are almost like magic, you do what you're told and things start to change.  At step 1, the remaining steps seem very intimidating, but one step at a time.  You build the strength to do them progressively and life just gets better and better and the insane compulsion to drink recedes.

Edited May 30, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Kennythetiger 9398]

1 hour ago, SwanderedTalent said:

drinking me looks at that feature and laughs and says "hahaha fagets, that's why I buy screwtop wine!"

Drinking me laughs at you and says, "What the fuck do you need the lid for?"

[BearSchlong 8099]

53 minutes ago, thestud said:

He was in AA, but he would only go when another coworker that is in the program could go with him. That guy has a different work schedule so that already limited his meeting attendance, and then he started skipping meetings altogether a few weeks ago. Myself and others tried to get him to go on his own. We pointed out to him that it’s a bit childish and not conducive to his sobriety to only attend meetings that he can take a friend to. He obviously didn’t listen

I'm not saying that there aren't other ways to get sober, but if it wasn't for AA I'd be dead.

We recommend 90 meetings in 90 days.  No matter what lengths it takes to get to a meeting.

I'm in my 9th year of sobriety and I rarely go more than 3 days without a meeting.  I average about 3-4 per week.

In the first 6 months it was very rare for me to go 1 day without a meeting.

Your buddy's mileage may vary, I'm just trying to to put in perspective the time investment I make to not die from alcoholism.

Edited May 30, 2019 by BearSchlong

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Yup.  Stopping drinking is going to take stopping some old habits (obviously and less obviously) and starting some new ones that lead to a new way of life.

Meetings are everywhere at all hours in all but the most rural of places.

It still resonates 20 years later, but a guy in an outpatient treatment session related that he reached a point where, if someone with sobriety told him to stand on the street corner and wave at red cars for two hours a day, and that would keep him sober, well then that's what he'd do.  Shortly after hearing that, and having done it my way without success for a year,I surrendered and started doing what people in the program told me to do.  90 in 90 was part of that.  I hesitate to recommend that to pigeons a little because it may put too much focus on 90 days and just meetings, but I do suggest it along with step work. It's not the meetings, it's the step work, but meetings are a good start and kind of a threshold activity and an opportunity for step work.

Edited May 30, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[BearSchlong 8099]

The idea being that he is going to hear "get a sponsor, work the steps" enough during those 90 days that doing those things becomes his idea.

It has to become our idea or we are doomed.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

1 minute ago, BearSchlong said:

The idea being that he is going to hear "get a sponsor, work the steps" enough during those 90 days that doing those things becomes his idea.

It has to become our idea or we are doomed.

Yes, there is validity to that for sure.  Worked for me. 

[BearSchlong 8099]

Hopefully he goes to a group where that kind of talk prevails, and not a sick group where the message isn't carried clearly.